Open World Movement (Another Itzal Nerf Thread)

[sehafoc]

TLDR; Welcome to the new Nova and Zephyr meta (just a joke, please don't tase me!)

Howdy!

I just watched the Dev Stream 126 and was pretty pleased until the end where there was some discussion of an Itzal nerf (where I was shocked)!  Not that it probably matters too much, but I thought I'd take a little time to talk about this from my point of view.  There are a few points here, and it'll probably go on for awhile, but I didn't really see another post that really took a deep dive on movement as a whole and other existing mechanics, so I figured I'd start a new thread.

Firstly, a bit of background.  This was brought up in the Dev Stream because people in chat were asking for move speed buffs to K-drives (best I could figure) as they aren't as fast as Itzal.  There were comparisons between Blink and coptering.  Scott further went on to state that Itzal is so good that it's required and therefore "game breaking"...

A few points about that -- I mean Itzal IS good -- it's as good as (if not better) Nova's Wormhole. Blink is a more spamable than Void Dash, but I find the "game breaking" aspect to be a bit disingenuous.  I mean,  if you seriously want parties of Nova wandering around all of your open worlds because it's now the de-facto best way to get around... This seems like a huge step backward.  Much in the same way everyone can unlock an operator, and mind step, everyone can equip an Itzal... this allows for every person to run whatever frame and weapons they want and this is just a tool.  It's a tool to help people stay in the core game play loop (of being a horde looter MMO) and not be stuck commuting.  Itzal is like a horse or fast travel point in most games,  whether or not that was it's original intent really shouldn't matter.  Additionally along those lines,  I think it's actually super cool that this is Warframes answer to "Town Portal".  Additionally, most all isometric horde looters have a teleport on the wizard class... not that it matters I guess...

A note about coptering.  This meant everyone had to use the same melee weapon(s),  which has an obvious downside to the diversity of the game in the main game play loop no less... Travel on the plains is not a metric where diversity should matter.  It's okay that somethings are better than others in game!  I like to use Volt on Captures for example, IMHO this is just the best way to get the job done.  Ember on Exterminates, Limbo for MD, etc.  Where I'm going with this is that, if your entire game was a mobile defense game, Limbo would be broken.  In the case where you have a diverse game all of these things are actually fine individually.  Last time I checked, this game still has more hallways than open worlds, and still has more archwing levels than open worlds too.  That being said, the archwings have been neglected for far too long, and a balance pass is probably needed. The main draw to all of the diversity in gear in the game is that you can get these things that have fun mechanics, or make your life easier in certain circumstances.  This gives purpose to the grind various things in general.  If everything is exactly the same you have no reason to get anything else. 

IMHO it isn't that Itzal is game breaking good,  It's that -- well honestly -- the other wings don't have the same amount of content that they're good at!  Furthermore,  outside of the ridiculously small number or arch wing missions, there is no reason to even run any other arch wing.  Further, furthermore You only have a single Mobile Defense that's worth running for leveling arch wing gear.  Even furtherly furthermore,  how am I supposed to solo the interception to get the elemental mod drops (because there are almost never parties doing it) without blink?  Honestly, from my point of view, ditching blink just makes a subset of somethings worse without improving anything.  K-Drives are still slow, other arch wings are still useless, you create a new Nova / Zephyr meta....

Honestly, the easiest fix for this would just be to make a "Wormhole" reusable gear wheel item,  you take away the necessity for an Itzal and you don't have to implement a fast travel system in the game.  Honestly you guys are sweating a gear that is good in exactly 2 levels, and the popularity of these levels is directly proportional to the amount of content being funneled into them.   Furthermore, if you didn't have to farm like 800 Hydrolists to get full sets of rare arcanes this would be less of an issue.  Anyways, what I would do if I ruled the world (or at least London, Canada)

1) Allow for real bindings of arch wings to load outs
2) Buff offensive and defensive capabilities the other arch wings
3) Actually make more arch wing levels (at least a good endless type)
4) If K-Drives are supposed to be an actual movement system rather than a Tony Hawk simulator, make them at least as good as a high speed Volt that knows how to use void dash (which is a step below wormhole and blink).  Which can give new players an intermediate step between the really good movement speed, and nothing (which is what they have now).
5) Create more situations where other things are better?  (maybe a subterranean area where K-Drives would *actually* just be better than an arch wing? it's gotta be hot on Mercury?)
6) Put in better air defense to the open worlds where other arch wings would have fewer problems than Itzal
7) Make a new mod that buffs the heck out of the afterburner for arch wings to make them nearly as fast as Itzal blink? (this wouldn't stop them being meta for Eidolon lure gathering, but for non-eidolon content afterburner doesn't have an energy requirements which means it could be used in all other open world content)

[Hrodgrim]

11 minutes ago, sehafoc said:

If everything is exactly the same you have no reason to get anything else. 

 

11 minutes ago, sehafoc said:

 Honestly you guys are sweating a gear that is good in exactly 2 levels

These are the most important selections of this thread. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Itzal being used for its traversing capabilities in the two areas where fast traversal is "necessary". I wouldn't even call it necessary to begin with. I personally roll around using the Amesha just because it better suits my "STAND AND DELIVER" play style.

[Redeye]

Void dash.

[(XBOX)Arbalestier]

To be fair, K-Drives were entirely pointless to begin with, my Elytron without fully maxed Hyperion thrusters is faster than modded K-drives.  Even if you can get a K-drive to go faster, full flight capabilities beat pathetic little ground skimmers every day, as anyone who's played armored core knows.

Secondly, the only time blink is overpowered is during the hilariously redundant and outdated Famorian invasion event where you can blink to the dreadnought before a net catches you.  Rush I find it difficult to maneuver because the controls are too wonky for tight cooridors.  You want to fix the transportarion disparity, stop making vehicles flimsier than cardboard and easy to destroy by random knockout missiles.  

I'm in favor of DE stepping up to nerf actual balance issues such as Slash damage or Rivens being abhorrently broken, but blink is utilitarian and the only reason to use the archwing when Elyrtron can kill everything on any other mission other than open world and Amesha can heal tank the world over.

Actually, go ahead and nerf Itzal's only use besides cloaking during Jordas fights with velocitus.  I'll just go back to using nukes and frag bombs and still have no reason to justify the surfboard of garbage.

[DrakeWurrum]

K-Drives are useless because all Archwings are more efficient at traversal. Itzal Blink is just because people get genuinely impatient and want to instantly go from fight to fight to exit with no actual travel in between. I honestly roll my eyes every time I take down an eidolon and see somebody pop out their Itzal and pull all the items together - I can't fathom being that obsessed with efficiency, especially when you're just doing a pug run. I personally use Amesha because it's easier to not die on Archwing missions. It works especially well on the Archwing Defense.

We need content areas where Archwing can't be used, but K-Drives do efficiently help us get from point A to B faster. Like an open world mining asteroid, with interweaving tunnels. Elsewise, K-Drive will never matter. It's bad enough that the only way to level K-Drive is to pointlessly grind K-Drive tricks, and hunt down the hard-to-find K-Drive races. We can't use them in combat the way we can with Archwing.

Frankly, I can't help but wonder if they should just give a Blink-like mobility action to ALL Archwing (Kinda like how all Warframes can Bullet Jump) that doesn't cost energy and can't be modded (and thus is weaker than what we currently have), and give Itzal a new first ability.

Edited April 21, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[(PSN)Aneres_Omega]

Seems to me that kdrives just suk outright and no point to them other than adding gimmicks to the game.

The only real reason to nerf and AW is to make the KD a 'better' option but in the end all they are going to do is anger the fan base.

 

[SECURATYYY]

Let me use guns on my K-drive!