Passive Health Regen

[MJ12]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re acting like the early game is dark souls levels of difficult. Which it’s not. 

As @Teridax68 said, this is literally not an argument. It's just a red herring. It makes two non sequitur assertions:

First, it disingenuously conflates between difficulty and frustration. The reason people are arguing for passive health regeneration is because spending half the mission on low health because you made a mistake that you can't recover from because of bad RNG, then instantly falling down because of a random Lancer slash procing you, is not fun. It is frustrating, because recovery from a bad situation is based entirely on luck, rather than on anything skill-based. Meanwhile, another player in literally the same situation might find four health orbs in a row, then go into the next encounter with full health, purely because of RNG. They did not have any greater skill than the first player who suddenly fell down and needed a teammate to pick them up/the use of a revive, but they didn't have to worry about this because of better RNG luck. Passive health regen would not meaningfully reduce difficulty but would significantly reduce frustration. In fact, assuming that passive health regen reduced difficulty significantly, you could remove all health pickups from the game then to rebalance the early game difficulty by keeping the average health gained between fights the same.

Second, it assumes that early game difficulty is so critical that it must be preserved. Generally speaking, people don't play Warframe because its early game is difficult. At least in my personal experience, many of the friends that I got into Warframe nearly quit because the early game is a slog compared to the later game where you have a solid core of mods and a large toolkit and can just chill while murdering thousands of enemies. Reducing the early game slog by making the early game less RNG-dependent would probably only increase player retention rates, because it makes it easier for them to get a taste of the power fantasy which they'll be able to access if they stick with the game.

[Basalto]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

There’s already several ways to heal yourself. It’s not needed.

Then what's the issue with one more? Can I go "we already have enemies in the game, we don't need more" or "we already have tilesets in the game, we don't need more"? Sure, more can be detrimental in the right conditions, but we're talking about something that makes sense realistically and works in favour of everyone, not being overpowered at the start and just enough to help people when they need it, and clearly not being a gamechanger at later on, when enemies might just hit over 1000 damage on you per hit with an automatic weapon. There's a lot that can be said in favour of a minor passive health regen, and so far I haven't seen nothing worthwhile against it, since "it's bad because I said so" or "if I got #*!%ed, so should you" are not exactly arguments that scream "constructing".

[OvisCaedo]

Mmm. This is another one of those situations where options exist for the issue in game, but also many of them are so absurd that they'll heal you from nothing to full in seconds or less. But until you have them, it just kind of feels bad, and health orbs have a horrible drop rate.

...Oh. Which, actually, is probably what I'd think they should address instead of adding slight passive regen: just make health orbs drop more.

[Xarteros]

I wouldn't care either way. As OP put in their edit, 1hp per 2 seconds isn't significant enough to jeopardize other healing effects, but it might be enough to stop the next stray shot from killing you.

That said, there's an overwhelming preponderance of healing sources for solo or group players. One could easily argue that it's not DE's responsibility to make sure you can do anything you want regardless of equipped gear or player skill. If things get too hard, you can either step it down a bit, find friends, build healing consumables (or Trinity specters) or bring mods/weapons/warframes that have some manor of healing effect or damage negation.
 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

34 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

As @Teridax68 said, this is literally not an argument. It's just a red herring. It makes two non sequitur assertions:

And we’re to just accept that one guy saying “this one specific arguement should not be valid because I don’t agree with it” as a general rule?

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And we’re to just accept that one guy saying “this one specific arguement should not be valid because I don’t agree with it” as a general rule?

Not really, but assuming you believe yourself to be a rational person capable of critical thinking, analysis, and thoughtful debate (if not, why are you here?), if someone makes a counter-argument, provides justification for that counter-argument, and that justification is valid, unless you have a counter to that counter-argument, it would stand to reason that you would consider the counter-argument valid, and thus the original argument to be invalidated. As such, you are cordially invited to read the counter-argument, along with its justification:

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean, if you want to talk about difficulty and fun, I'd be happy to, but even on that front, I don't think randomly dying to health attrition innately counts as difficulty, and I certainly don't think it's fun. Difficulty presumes the player is being challenged on some skill, and in the case of Toxin and Slash procs, as noted above, they tend to get inflicted via sources that are difficult to avoid or counter even as an experienced player, let alone a newcomer. Even if it were possible to completely avoid both by playing perfectly, that is not in itself a standard that we should realistically be enforcing on newer players.

Beyond all that, while it can be fun to some extent to be punished for playing poorly (because that makes victory all the sweeter), I don't think that can really be applied in this scenario, because ultimately the game is punishing the player for no particular reason, other than their potential lack of some equippable item or the like that they may not even be aware of. Moreover, unlike JRPGs, which can legitimately punish the player for not strategizing properly, Warframe is a game that does not feel all that good when it punishes the player for not having a specific loadout, as one of its core promises is unlimited freedom, including freedom of customization (which it doesn't really deliver on, but that's the promise). Telling players to equip certain items so as to not get screwed by a particular game mechanic thus doesn't really work for Warframe, particularly not for newer players.

See, "having difficulty is fun" is something I can agree with, and I think many more players will agree with you on this in isolation. My problem, though, is simply that I don't think it really applies here: losing health due to problems with the game's balance or design, and having no innate tools to recover it, I don't think is inherently difficult. Similarly, simply crafting a consumable to use, or equipping some grossly overpowered healing item like Magus Repair, I don't think requires a particular amount of skill to use. If we're framing the issue of health attrition as one of difficulty, then, we have a mechanic that has a high skill floor to newcomers, because they have to go out of their way to discover that the game has healing items, and then obtain those at a time when they're at their weakest, but also has a really low skill ceiling, because there isn't really mastery to be gained from healing via these items. Thus, health attrition does difficulty pretty terribly, and as far as skill-testing mechanics go, there are easily far better ones out there that are less likely to turn players off.

TL;DR: the problem with health attrition is not one of difficulty, because health attrition does not truly test the player's skill (it is somewhat inevitable that the player will take health damage). It is, however, unpleasant, because it's not fun to just die at random. For players new to the game, they may thus not really feel challenged by health attrition, so much as just generally annoyed, sometimes to the point of outright quitting (this nearly was my own experience as a new player, for example). Nobody is pretending that Warframe is "Dark Souls level of difficult" at any stage, if only because Dark Souls actually does difficulty properly, and regardless of the game's difficulty, it would still be better for newer players to add innate health regen to counter health attrition, which would itself have no real impact on high-level play.

MJ12 themselves correctly pointed out that your argument is a non-sequitur: your claim does not follow logically from prior statements, because it makes the logical leap that anything frustrating in a video game is a form of difficulty, but on top of that makes the even zanier leap that all difficulty is inherently good, and that health attrition must therefore be preserved. If you can somehow explain why all frustrating mechanics in video games constitute difficulty, and that difficulty in video games is good no matter what, your argument would be convincing, but as it stands it's clear not everyone has jumped to the same conclusions as you have.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

2 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

Mmm. This is another one of those situations where options exist for the issue in game, but also many of them are so absurd that they'll heal you from nothing to full in seconds or less. But until you have them, it just kind of feels bad, and health orbs have a horrible drop rate.

...Oh. Which, actually, is probably what I'd think they should address instead of adding slight passive regen: just make health orbs drop more.

Health Orbs are almost a discussion of their own. Basically relics of the earliest builds, they don't heal much (a meager 25 hp) and their drops are rather inconsistent for how many are needed to actually heal.

Just spitballing here, but it health orbs could go one of two ways: they stay relatively uncommon but heal a good chunk of health (like a medical kit in other games), or they continue to provide relatively little health but drop much more plentifully. Likewise there could be "scaled drops" where health orbs become more common the more damaged the player gets. Really its worthy of a thread in itself.

[Traumtulpe]

I still remember the aversion I had to Infested missions as a new player, those poison clouds will eventually eat trough your (and your sentinels) health and there is nothing you can do about it. Of course there are many ways to heal in this game, but you don't start with any, nor with directions on how to get them.

Might as well have a small amount of regeneration baseline - it makes no difference for a veteran, yet might make the game more fun for new players.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Traumtulpe

[EinheriarJudith]

18 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I still remember the aversion I had to Infested missions as a new player, those poison clouds will eventually eat trough your (and your sentinels) health and there is nothing you can do about it. Of course there are many ways to heal in this game, but you don't start with any, nor with directions on how to get them.

Might as well have a small amount of regeneration baseline - it makes no difference for a veteran, yet might make the game more fun for new players.

only that anytime DE makes changes it effects everyone. infested didnt use to have moa or infested osprey. they added the moa to stop people from camping and osprey to make the faction a little more difficult since infested were and still are a push over.

this complaint sounds like its coming from a person who only plays solo as a person who is playing in a group will likely get healed by his team or revived when he goes down.

[Gawizard]

Honestly there are alot of mods that heal the warframe but when im in that situation (solo kuva farming) id just go in operator mode and wait for my shields to pick up.
also, we have revives after death for a reason.
 

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

only that anytime DE makes changes it effects everyone. infested didnt use to have moa or infested osprey. they added the moa to stop people from camping and osprey to make the faction a little more difficult since infested were and still are a push over.

this complaint sounds like its coming from a person who only plays solo as a person who is playing in a group will likely get healed by his team or revived when he goes down.

You failed to mention a reason why Warframes should not regenerate health. I would not call my comment a complaint either, merely an opinion - I didn't like Infested mission as a new player because health was a finite resource and they bypass shields.

Now I can heal 40% health per second with the operator or use healing mods, damage to health has become as irrelevant as my shields, which were once my main defense.

[Prekatt]

I fully support a minor, minor, health regen, which is what the OP was talking about.

As many have pointed out, it would help new players have more relaxed gameplay as they learned the world and controls.  It would also be a greater boon to them than late-game players both because the latter would have access to better, faster healing, but also because new players tend to go through missions more slowly; exploring the map and whatnot as they get used to the game.  Learning to keep up with active players would naturally make a minor healing bonus less useful as you progressed in the game simply because you wouldn't have the time to make use of it, particularly if there was a condition of having not taken damage for a couple of seconds.

On a personal note: I'd love if just for when I'm on the Plains or Valis for several hours.  Sure, maybe my Warframe can get fixed via Magnus Repair or Nourish or whatever, but my Archwing?  I don't want to lose a revive and any affinity that went with it just because my transport didn't have a source of health.  Same goes for me on my K-Drive where suddenly I don't have the ability to restore my health until I'm at my destination and entering combat.  Heck, for lengthy excursions I'd even be down to give the same minor passive health regen to pets and sentinels.

I'm going to be honest, I came on this thread with the intention of telling the OP that there was no way Warframe's should have passive health regen, but I think it's a really good argument, particularly with the addition of open world areas that offer the ability to be in a mission for a long time.  I'd be totally down if I didn't need to put my fishing spear/tranq-rifle/mining laser away and drop a health restore just because some punk shot me from across the map and I felt like playing as my favorite frame instead of an invisible one.  This is a good idea that I feel would be a subtle but noticeable improvement to the game.

Yes, restrict it.  Offer some pretty ridiculous conditions for it to activate, like no enemies in 20 meters, must not have taken damage (health or shields) for 5 seconds, and at a rate of no more than 1 hp per second.  Combat with those type of restrictions would hardly ever, if ever, change at all, but flying around one of the big maps or looting everything as a new player would suddenly be a less worrisome ordeal.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Maybe you'd like to actually explain which healing tool you're referring to instead of trying for a pithy dunk?

Fair enough.

During the New Player mission you install the market segment. Health Restore gear items (one-shot, restore your entire health, but only yours) have been available in there for only 1500 Credits and are built with resources Scanned from Earth using the basic Codex Scanner (500 credits for 25 scans) since Update 11. You have access to basic healing gear from MR0, the game just doesn't tell you that outright and it's one of the things I tell new players about constantly. The basic Exterminate on E Prime grants you enough Credits, and has the resources available to scan, before you even start moving around the rest of the planet, let alone the Star Chart.

By the time you complete the starter missions you're qualified for MR1, with a few weapons and a new Warframe or two from playing the missions through you're qualified for MR2 and most people will do that just to get away from the default Mk-1 Weapons, just because some of the others are cooler. Technically you can only be MR1, but it's more likely that players will be MR2 before too long; by this point you can play missions with those same Health Restores as part of the reward drop table, and so even without buying the scanners and crafting the blueprint have access to basic healing gear, if sporadically, from before MR2, or at it.

At MR 3 you can join the Syndicates and you have been gaining Relics for the entire duration of your play, meaning you can rank up with them. You get access to Large Team Health Restores at rank 3 of the Syndicates, meaning you don't even need to rank up more to get one of the most prevalent and easily used healing items in the game, you just need to play for Resources to build them.

These things are not end-game, they're not rare, they're completely available to all players starting out. The biggest problem is that there's not really any hand-holding to tell you that they're there.

Warframe's lack of a new player experience past the 'this is how you shoot things, this is how you hit things, this is how you run about between those, and these are mission you run about in' tutorial is more to blame than a lack of a passive health regen system.

Gear is there, gear is freely available, easy to acquire and deploy when needed, and it's not even hard to craft. It's just lost among the amazing wealth of new things that Warframe drops you in the middle of when you get that Askaris off your frame.

[Mr.SpookSpook]

Agree, it was super frustrating as a new player that there was no passive health regen whatsoever and it was forcing me to use Rejuvenation. Now as a more experienced player I don't care much about it, but it would be very helpful in the beginning. A delayed regen like shield has, but only up to about 3-10hp/sec

[MJ12]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

During the New Player mission you install the market segment. Health Restore gear items (one-shot, restore your entire health, but only yours) have been available in there for only 1500 Credits and are built with resources Scanned from Earth using the basic Codex Scanner (500 credits for 25 scans) since Update 11. You have access to basic healing gear from MR0, the game just doesn't tell you that outright and it's one of the things I tell new players about constantly. The basic Exterminate on E Prime grants you enough Credits, and has the resources available to scan, before you even start moving around the rest of the planet, let alone the Star Chart.

"only 1500 credits"

Last I checked, that's literally more than the credit reward for clearing some low-level missions. For a new player, it is literally more economical to fail a mission than to use a single health restore gear item.

This isn't an actually useful solution for a new player to regenerate health.

[DrivaMain]

I see that a lot of people doesn’t remember the frustration of new player experience. A lot of games has an innate regeneration why not Warframe? 1HP/s is enough and it will only be active after you are not damaged after certain period of time. New players doesn’t have access to rejuvenation, not to mention that Nightwave is NOT new player friendly. If you don’t believe me aura mods prices have risen to 50-60p instead of 10-20p because you have to wait for a week or more to get the aura mods you wanted.

One of the biggest issue with Warframe is that it has one of the worst new player tutorials. Hiding critical information from new players so they are forced to search outside sources (like the Wiki).

Edited April 10, 2019 by DrivaMain
Grammar corrections

[Mach25]

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As previously said, I do genuinely believe it would be a good idea to rework our health bars purely around regenerating health, and ditch armor and shields in the process, a suggestion I justified in the post where I suggested it (shields have become obsolete, plus armor is simply an amplifier to health)

I have significant misgivings about removing armor altogether - I use it quite abundantly for damage mitigation purposes (I'm usually fighting level 90+ enemies, where you need all the armor you can muster to survive as a swordmaster). If you remove armor, then by what amount of health would you replace armor with? We know each frame is designed with its strengths and weaknesses, armor can help make a break a frame in being able to stay on its feet. The suits themselves are supposed to be organic metal, so having armor be a factor in it would be in keeping with the story and the visual elements of the frame itself.

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, Mach25 said:

I have significant misgivings about removing armor altogether - I use it quite abundantly for damage mitigation purposes (I'm usually fighting level 90+ enemies, where you need all the armor you can muster to survive as a swordmaster). If you remove armor, then by what amount of health would you replace armor with? We know each frame is designed with its strengths and weaknesses, armor can help make a break a frame in being able to stay on its feet. The suits themselves are supposed to be organic metal, so having armor be a factor in it would be in keeping with the story and the visual elements of the frame itself.

I feel the question of compensating for the loss of armor would be simpler than it may seem: because armor acts as a multiplier to health, all else held equal, if you were to remove armor, but add back enough health that the warframe's EHP would remain the same, you would end up with the exact same total health pool. For example, a frame with 300 armor and 1000 health would have 2000 EHP, because 300 armor provides 50% damage reduction (and thus doubles your base health). If they got their armor removed, giving them 1000 more health would therefore leave them with the same amount of EHP. There would be differences relative to Slash procs and flat healing values (frames with armor are more vulnerable to bleeding, but get more from flat healing), but that I think could be relatively okay in the grand scheme of things, as neither Slash procs nor our flat healing I think are dealbreakers. Meanwhile, removing armor and shields in this respect would give a much clearer picture of how durable frames actually are: Inaros would likely come across as far too tanky with tens of thousands of health (and he is, in fact, too tanky, I'd say), and Hildryn would likely pale in comparison to other tanks with her own much smaller pool, if her shields were converted to health.

[Mach25]

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I feel the question of compensating for the loss of armor would be simpler than it may seem: because armor acts as a multiplier to health, all else held equal, if you were to remove armor, but add back enough health that the warframe's EHP would remain the same, you would end up with the exact same total health pool. For example, a frame with 300 armor and 1000 health would have 2000 EHP, because 300 armor provides 50% damage reduction (and thus doubles your base health). If they got their armor removed, giving them 1000 more health would therefore leave them with the same amount of EHP. There would be differences relative to Slash procs and flat healing values (frames with armor are more vulnerable to bleeding, but get more from flat healing), but that I think could be relatively okay in the grand scheme of things, as neither Slash procs nor our flat healing I think are dealbreakers. Meanwhile, removing armor and shields in this respect would give a much clearer picture of how durable frames actually are: Inaros would likely come across as far too tanky with tens of thousands of health (and he is, in fact, too tanky, I'd say), and Hildryn would likely pale in comparison to other tanks with her own much smaller pool, if her shields were converted to health.

How would this scale with enemy damage range to where I'm having over 1000 armor and I'm still going down quite quickly on higher levels if I stand still for too long (3 - 4 seconds - hyperbole, undoubtedly, but you understand what I mean). I'm assuming you would set a specific enemy threshold in which to balance enemy damage, and adaptation would deal with damage mitigation, in that regard? I think I just answered my own question, so then I would ask you this: let's say shields and armor were removed, what would you put in the place of arcanes (especially arcanes!) and mods dealing with those two aspects?

Edited April 10, 2019 by Mach25

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Mach25 said:

How would this scale with enemy damage range to where I'm having over 1000 armor and I'm still going down quite quickly on higher levels if I stand still for too long (3 - 4 seconds - hyperbole, undoubtedly, but you understand what I mean). I'm assuming you would set a specific enemy threshold in which to balance enemy damage, and adaptation would deal with damage mitigation, in that regard?

While I'm happy to discuss the topic of balancing enemy damage (I don't think enemy damage should scale up like it does now), I feel that's also kind of a separate topic, and not one that necessarily has bearing on my suggestion: if my change leaves the effective health of frames unchanged (i.e. a frame with 300 armor and 1k health, i.e. 2k EHP, goes to just 2k health and nothing else), they would be dealing with enemy damage in the exact same way as they would now. If health regenerated like shields currently, frames might even have a bit more leeway, as they would be able to more adequately recover in-between fights, or simply if they just get enemies off their tail for a few seconds.

Quote

I think I just answered my own question, so then I would ask you this: let's say shields and armor were removed, what would you put in the place of arcanes (especially arcanes!) and mods dealing with those two aspects?

There are different ways of going about it (including simply dropping those arcanes altogether), but my take in the short-term would be to rework those arcanes to provide similar-ish bonuses under the new system. For example, if Arcane Guardian provided a tiny amount of total damage immunity (e.g. up to 2-4 seconds of damage immunity on a 5% chance, or something even smaller), you'd still have an arcane for mitigating damage taken in critical moments, which would also work well for squishier frames. A similar model could be applied for Arcane Ultimatum. As for Arcane Barrier and Aegis, Barrier could likely reworked to provide a small chance for a full heal, whereas Aegis could instead perhaps be reworked into the offensive counterpart to Arcane Grace, healing the player over time after getting a headshot or the like. This doesn't have to be the exact implementation, but just a few examples of how these arcanes could be reincorporated into a game without armor or shields. In the long term, I think arcanes themselves need a rework (there's far too much reliance on percentage chances, and in the end they're just mods with a different coat of paint), but that too is a bit beyond the current discussion.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Last I checked, that's literally more than the credit reward for clearing some low-level missions.

Last I checked, you'd be incorrect. A new player can earn more than that on the very first Exterminate mission on Earth if they're opening lockers and hitting boxes. Outside of that, the regular missions don't actually scale up past 10-12 until you decide to go for the higher Cetus Bounties or the Dark Sectors, there's nothing there to actually challenge a new player other than the plethora of new things they encounter.

As I said, I teach new players, I don't just talk about them. I know how much they have access to, I'm not coming to you from a position of 'back in my day'.

Players may not be able to afford the 20k and above range for Blueprints or other new things at that point, you're right, or the 15k that the Dojo offers them for that matter either. But Scanners and Health Restore Blueprints are literally the easiest things to get and the first thing that's actually useful as a gear item that you will encounter.

[Mach25]

50 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

While I'm happy to discuss the topic of balancing enemy damage (I don't think enemy damage should scale up like it does now), I feel that's also kind of a separate topic, and not one that necessarily has bearing on my suggestion: if my change leaves the effective health of frames unchanged (i.e. a frame with 300 armor and 1k health, i.e. 2k EHP, goes to just 2k health and nothing else), they would be dealing with enemy damage in the exact same way as they would now. If health regenerated like shields currently, frames might even have a bit more leeway, as they would be able to more adequately recover in-between fights, or simply if they just get enemies off their tail for a few seconds.

There are different ways of going about it (including simply dropping those arcanes altogether), but my take in the short-term would be to rework those arcanes to provide similar-ish bonuses under the new system. For example, if Arcane Guardian provided a tiny amount of total damage immunity (e.g. up to 2-4 seconds of damage immunity on a 5% chance, or something even smaller), you'd still have an arcane for mitigating damage taken in critical moments, which would also work well for squishier frames. A similar model could be applied for Arcane Ultimatum. As for Arcane Barrier and Aegis, Barrier could likely reworked to provide a small chance for a full heal, whereas Aegis could instead perhaps be reworked into the offensive counterpart to Arcane Grace, healing the player over time after getting a headshot or the like. This doesn't have to be the exact implementation, but just a few examples of how these arcanes could be reincorporated into a game without armor or shields. In the long term, I think arcanes themselves need a rework (there's far too much reliance on percentage chances, and in the end they're just mods with a different coat of paint), but that too is a bit beyond the current discussion.

I was going to completely disregard everything you said and throw in a ridiculous statement that has nothing to do with the topic at hand and simply attempt to discredit you the user because I have nothing to say and wish to actively discourage innovation, discussion, show no critical reasoning capabilities, actively seek to sabotage the game's development as a whole and, most likely, be bored and will probably laugh about whatever you say because I have no business being on a forum but should be off at a skating park or playing Call of Duty Black Ops on my console, eating doritos and listening to some sports - in other words, become a "WurF3rm" user...but I digress. (/S. I'm not saying this to dig at anyone here, but I've been perusing mulitple threads and I keep seeing this displayed to good ideas that make sense. It seems to be a trait of this game's forum.)

Hmm...health that regenerates like shields, I could definitely use that. I must admit that I completely disregard shields and they serve no purpose to me - it's all about damage mitigation, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the delay and how quickly shields regenerate - rarely, when I'm looking in the top-left corner, it's anything else but pure red. Your suggestions so far sound very interesting. In step with these changes, you would alter enemy damage - I can get behind these ideas. I find your arcane alterations quite interesting, I'll see what else you have to say on other matters. I was referred to you by a buddy, I can see why.

In reference to the original post, I agree.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Mach25

[-Trixxy]

Original post:

That even happens to me some times, and when it does, I make finger guns and say "gg DE, you got me this time"

As frustrating as it may seem, I remind myself that (at least on that level of difficulty escalation) we're actually spoiled in terms or damage mitigation with shields, armor and regens and heals or mods, life steal, psychic power teenagers, doggos, kitties, OH YEAH, health orbs, pizza, straight up revives. Sometimes there's even a buddy around with heals and res, not to mention the most important, common awareness.

Further more however, I remind myself that, that when those options are limited, that the game can be fun, or rather that that frustration can be part of the fun. Just today, for no reason I felt like throwing on all 4 dragon keys and jumping into Orokin Derelict for some corrupt mods, crawling around the place solo with no more then 150 hp at any point meaning any whiff of toxin from those Mutalist Ospreys would very likely down me instantly. I knew what I was getting into, and it made me approach the missions differently, more methodically, and ultimately, it was fun. Wolf of Saturn 6 even showed up with buddies to try mess up my game but even under these circumstances, I adapted and pawned his armor plates.

TDLR: Sometimes you just gotta admit you got "got" and that's okay. There are already so many options available to players we don't need to power creep unnecessarily adding new stuff on top of stuff when a simply change in mindset is enough.

[MJ12]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Last I checked, you'd be incorrect. A new player can earn more than that on the very first Exterminate mission on Earth if they're opening lockers and hitting boxes. Outside of that, the regular missions don't actually scale up past 10-12 until you decide to go for the higher Cetus Bounties or the Dark Sectors, there's nothing there to actually challenge a new player other than the plethora of new things they encounter.

As I said, I teach new players, I don't just talk about them. I know how much they have access to, I'm not coming to you from a position of 'back in my day'.

Players may not be able to afford the 20k and above range for Blueprints or other new things at that point, you're right, or the 15k that the Dojo offers them for that matter either. But Scanners and Health Restore Blueprints are literally the easiest things to get and the first thing that's actually useful as a gear item that you will encounter.

So instead, you just wipe out most of the credit rewards from a mission, proving my point. When even 20,000 credits is a huge deal, every use of a health restore is a very large cut into the rewards of a mission for basically no gain. Acting like health restores are "actually useful as a gear item" is honestly nonsense. When you might be inclined to use them, their large cost relative to their payoff makes them ridiculously inefficient wastes of time because using even a single one in a mission is going to nuke most of your credit gains and you're heavily credit-constrained in the early game. And when you get enough credits on a regular basis to use them, you'll basically have no need for them because you'll almost certainly have something that makes them less useful, whether it's a Warframe like Rhino which is effectively invincible through the entire starmap, some form of Warframe with healing tools, or someone will have donated a Medi-Ray to you or something.

You're saying that because a new player has the choice of wiping out a large chunk of their in-mission credit gains in exchange for a one-time full heal, they have access to enough healing that passive health regen is unnecessary. This is an absurd statement to make. Being given the choice to use a relatively expensive one-use item when every credit is precious enough to make 'open the lockers' semi-useful advice does not make health restoration accessible enough to make passive regen "unnecessary."

[MJ12]

44 minutes ago, -Trixxy said:

Original post:

That even happens to me some times, and when it does, I make finger guns and say "gg DE, you got me this time"

As frustrating as it may seem, I remind myself that (at least on that level of difficulty escalation) we're actually spoiled in terms or damage mitigation with shields, armor and regens and heals or mods, life steal, psychic power teenagers, doggos, kitties, OH YEAH, health orbs, pizza, straight up revives. Sometimes there's even a buddy around with heals and res, not to mention the most important, common awareness.

Further more however, I remind myself that, that when those options are limited, that the game can be fun, or rather that that frustration can be part of the fun. Just today, for no reason I felt like throwing on all 4 dragon keys and jumping into Orokin Derelict for some corrupt mods, crawling around the place solo with no more then 150 hp at any point meaning any whiff of toxin from those Mutalist Ospreys would very likely down me instantly. I knew what I was getting into, and it made me approach the missions differently, more methodically, and ultimately, it was fun. Wolf of Saturn 6 even showed up with buddies to try mess up my game but even under these circumstances, I adapted and pawned his armor plates.

TDLR: Sometimes you just gotta admit you got "got" and that's okay. There are already so many options available to players we don't need to power creep unnecessarily adding new stuff on top of stuff when a simply change in mindset is enough.

...and literally none of this is accessible to someone who just started playing a day ago who isn't being carried. Acting like 1 hp/s or hell, even 10 hp/s passive regen to every Warframe would somehow be 'unnecessary power creep' is absurd. Veterans would barely notice it because at sortie levels damage tears through your health fast enough that serious concentrated fire will overwhelm slight regen and you already have multiple sources of passive or active healing that top you off fairly quickly.

The only time I've ever noticed Nidus's passive healing keeping me alive was in low level content where he's literally immortal, but taking a maxed mod, maxed level, multiple formaed Nidus into low level content with a Medi-Ray Sentinel as well. That's hardly representative of the new player experience and hardly something that the game should balance around.

People are using the experience of a veteran player who yes, has a large and varied number of tools to regenerate health, and trying to generalize it to a newbie who has a small handful of inefficient and limited ways of doing so. Newbies can't run fleeting expertise Trinities and Zenurik so they can get health so long as they remember to mash 4 every 8 seconds. Newbies don't have Medi-Ray unless someone gave it to them, and I'd say Medi-Ray is basically the turning point as far as health management goes where it becomes less frustrating (because when you have a maxed Medi-Ray, you know that so long as your Sentinel doesn't randomly explode, you will regenerate from near-dead to full in two minutes, tops). Newbies often won't even know Medi-Ray exists.

Passive health regen would make new players understand how Warframe actually plays once you start seriously getting into the meat of the higher-level content if they had some passive regeneration. Lower difficulty level maps should demonstrate that health is easy-come, easy-go. If this somehow makes the game 'too easy' you could increase enemy spawns in low-level maps (which are pretty empty) to make up for that, because low levels of passive health regen are functionally not going to change the late game experience.