Passive Health Regen

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

The OP wants to give the players a new player experience that teaches them how to actually play the game.

Passive health regen does not teach the player how to play the game and does not provide an actual New Player Experience.

The new player experience is a short 'quest' called Vor's Prize and then being abandoned to the game's actual learning curve with the only thing being learned is 'this is shoot', 'this is hit', 'this is how you run around' and 'these are a couple of missions that exist'. It in no way actually teaches a player about the game, and in no way captures any of the methods that a new player can use to actually succeed in the game.

I teach new players. I go out of my way whenever I can to take new players through missions, talk them through the basics, and give them advice on finding a play style that actually suits them. Just little, insignificant gigantically impactful concepts like 'you can revive your team if they fall over, it means you don't waste a self revive, you don't fail the mission', then teaching them when is a good time to revive, how to clear an area to do so, how not to revive if another player is doing it already and kill some enemies to make sure nobody else dies, that kind of thing.

You cannot take that quote out of context and say it applies to anything, the context is that OP's entire argument rests on this idea that players dying due to a lack of health regen is a problem that causes them to quit. If players are dying enough that they're that frustrated, then they aren't being taught enough of the basics of playing the game so that they discover the important concept in Warframe; that death holds no actual penalties.

Death can slow you down, yes. Death can be frustrating, yes. But with a team, or even on your own, it is not a blockade standing against you. And that is the New Player Experience that needs to be taught.

Health regen will not teach that. Health regen will only teach that if you run away from the objective, from enemies or anything else for long enough you'll be able to come back again. Warframe isn't a cover-based shooter, it doesn't work like that. Cover can, and does, negate damage, but it is not and should not be how you excel at the game, only by mowing down the hordes of enemies, cracking open chests and lockers, and only through the heavy grind do you have access to these conveniences that allow you to get health back.

The New Player Experience should not teach players any more or less than the actual game mechanics and tactics for dealing with them. It should not take somebody like me, a bored guy with everything else in the game done, coming along and shepherding these new players through actual game content for them to actually understand what the game's core loop is and how not to die while doing it.

[SECURATYYY]

The 'new player experience' should include mods that everyone needs. First few missions get serration/hornet strike/enemy radar/etc. They're trying to get the ascaris off and are tunneled into that whole quest. Part of that should be 'its time to upgrade your gear' and teach them how to mod, and give them the basic mods that we all have 1000 of.

[Guest]

I am always of the opinion that passive energy regen is more important than passive health regen. If health regenerated, sure, it's nice but there are loads of ways to top up health and TBH, more tankiness doesn't serve to make anything special, memorable or unique. It may make Nidus last longer than now and less unique than he should be, but that's it, really.

Energy on the other hand is what separates warframe A from B. To always have abilities on hand would be nice to have.

Things like energy siphon, zenurik, energy pads and even arcane energize are plain dumb and just lame excuses which necessitate the creation of equally dumb enemies like the energy leech eximus and nullifier. Making energy RNG or making you jump through a hoop to get feels pointless. In that case, why even use powers and just shoot. At this point, it's basically like powers exist or don't exist depending on the situation.

Of course, I am not of the kind to reject any kind of upgrade to what we have, but always, energy regen and removal of RNG energy >>>>>> health regen in any case.

[Teridax68]

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The New Player Experience should not teach players any more or less than the actual game mechanics and tactics for dealing with them. It should not take somebody like me, a bored guy with everything else in the game done, coming along and shepherding these new players through actual game content for them to actually understand what the game's core loop is and how not to die while doing it.

When the "actual game mechanics" cease to matter and the tactics for dealing with them is to become so powerful through better weapons and mods that nothing in the game can meaningfully challenge the player, no New Player Experience will be sufficient in giving players an effective teaching experience, unless of course you are proposing to give starting players all of the mods and weapons they need for the game to start feeling playable. It's all well and good to pat oneself on the back for "teaching" new players by flexing one's ridiculously overpowered mod setup, which they will have no hope of attaining without grinding for extensive amounts of time, but this in practice is ineffective, because new and veteran players are playing essentially two different games. Teaching players to parkour only goes so far when enemies have hitscan weaponry and damage procs capable of directly attacking a frame's non-regenerating health, and having those players stick to multiplayer is a terrible idea when they'll be slowing everyone else down, all while having nothing to do due to their teammates clearing the objective already miles ahead. In this respect, any minor amount of health regen would serve newer players much better, while having essentially no impact in higher-level play: not only would it be an effective teaching element by giving players room to recover from Slash and Toxin procs, as well as their shields breaking, it would also serve as an accurate balance lever that can be tweaked as needed to make the game easier to pick up, without affecting higher ranks much.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Teridax68

[Leyers_of_facade]

As someone who started playing in the days when everyone has 4 revives per day (and you have to pay plat to gain more ... yuck), I don't think the passive health regen is necessary as dying is part of the learning process and in my opinion, the current 4 revives per mission is already a really lenient system. However, it could be the case that some players may struggle (at least according to some people in previous posts). 

My recommendation would be to implement an "easy mode" that is only limited to early game players, this could give things like passive health regen and maybe even energy regen. New players would be notified that this system is optional and will be disabled eventually as they get stronger. The mode is only available for newer players and will be disabled when they progress a certain amount (perhaps reaching mr3 or something), there would also be the option to disable this mode for players if they wish to have a better experience of the game.

I feel like sometimes it isn't really necessary for there to only be one and not the other. Potentially giving the players the choice between the 2 would be decent as well.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Leyers_of_facade
some additions

[EothasianBoar]

Or they can make health orb drop more reliably. Not the level of Nezha forced drop, just drop more like energy orb. This way new player are also encourage to keep the action going instead of huddle up and wait for the regen. And make them guaranteed drop from locker(not guaranteed from breakable container, just locker.) This may encourage the exploration the tiles off the beaten path, which will help them find caches, scan-able and syndicate tokens later on; and they may even ran into Ayatan that will help them build up their mods.    

A couple of years ago Steve did the "new player experience" stream, iirc. And he did mention that he notices health orb low drop chance but nothing ever comes of it.

8 hours ago, SECURATYYY said:

Part of that should be 'its time to upgrade your gear' and teach them how to mod

inb4 "This game should not hold your hand." and "Engaging with the community to learn the game is part of the it."

[3NVY5W0RD]

+1 on this. They already done this with Nidus and i believe he is THE only Warframe with Health Regen stat.

Its not that hard in all seriousness, Just Introduce new stat, Health Regen, BOOM done. Its differs for each Warframe, so you might as well see people equip Health Regen Vs Health Pool Mods [Vitality]. This should be implemented coz it will diversifies and personalized each Warframe even better. 

[uiop2000]

On 2019-05-09 at 12:28 AM, Test-995 said:

I can't really get why this much of people is against this idea, it wouldn't make game any worse, could make it a little easier but that's it.

 

On 2019-05-09 at 6:27 AM, Gonjero said:

Me too I am not really sure why everyone is against it.

I'm not really against this so much as I'm "This is going to need so much re-balancing and damage rework". I'm mostly thinking trying to figure out what this would to to shields though as they're currently ignored and useless (except on Hildryn).

[sinnae]

mid-game arcanes like magus elevate, or slightly later-game arcanes like magus repair, make the whole self-healing issue...well, a non-issue. i liked the sense of progression i got when i finally had access to those. i could heal prior to that with air support, health pizzas, etc., but having it on-demand felt earned at that point. i like the whole state of self-healing the way it is, to be honest.

[TurboWonka]

I would love to have 1hp/sec regen.

[ReshyShira]

Were Corrosive Projection not mandatory for high-end content, and Rejuvenation not providing a pittance of recovery (Seriously, it takes almost two minutes to recover the unmodded health of most warframes), I'd just say use that.  But as if, you have to either use an arcane (which are hard to get), use consumables (which take a good amount of time to provide their healing, but still over a short enough period to not matter; also a not-insignificant amount of resurces), medic towers (which take too long to cool down), Vazurin (which if you're a squishy frame you're probably needing zenurik for energy), or an aura slot that's woefully out of date.

 

I would say that warframes in general need better health recovery options, as most of the old options are exceedingly power-creeped at this point.  As a player with basically more resources than I know what to do with, and an arcane grace I can strap to a warframe.  These aren't big issues.  However, I admittedly don't use squishy warframes because they feel bad to play.  They take more damage than other frames, so you need to heal more often, and they have less health to heal (making some options far less potent), and you generally die more often. 

 

Honestly I just think this is a symptom of the game's approach to content being all about DPS and tanking, and nothing else.  More and more content ignores CC, and squishy frames can't easily recover their pitiful health pools as easy as the tankier frames, whom also have considerably more health.

Edited May 25, 2019 by ReshyShira

[Steel_Rook]

I'm still of the opinion that some minor amount of health and energy regeneration would be helpful. Not as a means of mitigation, obviously - that's down to individual Warframe abilities. But just as what they call "sustain" - the ability to stay topped up if you don't mismanage your resources too badly. The game's current level of power creep means that everyone has so much health, energy and even shield regeneration that you may as well make Physique and Energy Siphon inherent for new players without end-game players even noticing. At least that way, new players will be rewarded for playing smart, avoiding damage and managing their resources, rather than just constantly bleeding a lot of everything.

I do agree that health and energy orbs ought to be a lot more common. However, there are quite a few mechanics which build off of those, so changing them WILL have a knock-on effect on end-game builds.

[Showerwalker]

Considering you're always bombarded with swarms of enemies that are usually hitscan, kind of make sense to have some form of recover mechanic. The thing is, we have that, but just none of them are innate. Maybe if when armour (or just eHP in general) actually got looked at, it might be worth considering.

Spoiler

The reason with games having a recover mechanic is so that when players do take damage they're not punished to play super defensively for the rest of the mission, which usually leads to camping, and ruins the fun. This means when it comes to recovering, they must be significant in all situations at all times for them to accomplish their role (and not too much to not trivialize anything). Warframe is so unbalanced that, in short this is impossible to get it right.

To add it just for new player experience tho, might just end up being extra work that'll cause more hassle later on, we don't even know how easy it is to implement it considering how many elements in this game affect hp in general, while being insignificant for the rest of the game. On the other hand I don't think the starter enemies are that threatening to begin with. But I agree with the idea of introducing regen mechanics early on, say a gear item giving 1 or 2 hp per sec, but is consumed in killing Vor and freeing yourself of the lock thingy.

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Showerwalker

[Steel_Rook]

8 hours ago, Showerwalker said:

But I agree with the idea of introducing regen mechanics early on, say a gear item giving 1 or 2 hp per sec, but is consumed in killing Vor and freeing yourself of the lock thingy.

I don't think you even need to void 1-3 HP/s health regen at all. It's meaningful for low-level players using Rank 5 Warframes with Rank 2 Vitality but just meaningless enough for high-level players in possession of Medi-Ray and Arcane Grace, etc. to not have to worry about balancing around it. You don't even need to remove Rejuvenation, either, because it could just stack with base health regeneration for a total of 1-3 + 3/6/9/12 HP/s with 1/2/3/4 players using the Aura. Basically, I feel that minor inherent health regeneration is just powerful enough to matter for new, low-level players but just weak enough to not make a difference in high-level play, thus sidestepping most of the balance issues.

I'm also curious about experimenting with "out of combat" health and energy recovery, but I'm not really sure if Warframe's design really lends itself to that very well. There are too many situations where combat never ends for mechanics like these to be balanced.

[Showerwalker]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

It's meaningful for low-level players using Rank 5 Warframes with Rank 2 Vitality but just meaningless enough for high-level players in possession of Medi-Ray and Arcane Grace, etc. to not have to worry about balancing around it.

Kind of why I wanted to remove it, it's there just as a way to introduce the regen mechanic, but not leave it in the game to avoid clutter, and become something to keep in mind when coding anything else in the future. But I'm dont know sht about programing so I might be wrong. On the other hand, if it's introduced as a passive it would be interesting to see it scales with Vazarin focus progression. still tho, Magnus Elevate exist. And the game seem to lean towards burst healing over the slow and constant ones.

[Steel_Rook]

24 minutes ago, Showerwalker said:

Kind of why I wanted to remove it, it's there just as a way to introduce the regen mechanic, but not leave it in the game to avoid clutter, and become something to keep in mind when coding anything else in the future. But I'm dont know sht about programing so I might be wrong. On the other hand, if it's introduced as a passive it would be interesting to see it scales with Vazarin focus progression. still tho, Magnus Elevate exist. And the game seem to lean towards burst healing over the slow and constant ones.

We're conflating the concepts of "mitigation" and "sustain" a little bit. Mitigation - or burst healing - is typically used in combat in order to avoid dying and absorb incoming fire. Sustain, by contrast, is deliberately set too low to offset incoming damage in any meaningful way, but is still set just high enough as to keep you topped up during periods where you AREN'T taking damage. Without sustain, players end up suffering chip damage and growing weaker over time, having to rely on resource-intensive heals, instead. Sustain mostly covers chip damage and ensures that players who don't take a lot of damage can start each fight full even if they took some damage previously. That's more or less what Rejuvenation does. It can't save you once your shields go down, but it'll keep you full if you can keep your shields up.

The farther a player progresses through the game, the faster that player moves through missions. This compresses downtime, leaving less time for sustain to do anything. Additionally, health, armour and damage values increase as well, further diminishing the impact of minor sustain regeneration. All of that is to say that sustain has natural diminishing returns and drops off in importance naturally as players progress. As such, I see no reason to actively remove it. I say let everyone regenerate a minor amount of health and energy constantly, then leave it a that.

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

magus repair or elevate not every frame needs a free passive healing source 

we only need active healing options and some frames can already heal in their kit

rejuvenation is the only passive healing you'll need as any passive shouldn't be too significant in healing big chunks of damage not getting hit is still a valid alternative

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-04-08 at 2:57 PM, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

We've been in a situation like this before: We're playing with a squishy Warframe (Mag, Nyx, etc) and just got done clearing out a hoard of enemies. You're now low on health and not having any luck getting health orbs; so now you're playing more cautiously. Everything is going fine until a stray Toxin or Slash proc hits you. Your health counts down: 10, 4, 2, DEAD. If only you had on a Rejuvenation aura.

  Hide contents

Really it doesn't make sense as to why Warframes can't just naturally regenerate health. They're Infested super-humans crammed full of mythologically advanced technology. The fact they can't heal the occasional scrape or ding without outside aid is baffling.

Ideally Warframes should be able to heal themselves at the tiniest of increments. Not enough to actively heal a good chunk of health between fights, but just enough that the occasional flesh wound will patch itself up after a minute or two. Like (+1 hp / 2 sec) or something.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I've been seeing a lot of comments saying it will "make the game too easy". I'm just gonna throw down some math to offset these argument.

The average Warframe has 300 health at rank 30 with no supplemental mods. If they were given health regen of 1hp per 2 seconds, it would take ~10 minutes to fully regenerate their health from near death. I personally cannot think of any situation in which a player would be on the defensive for 10 solid minutes without health orbs dropping. The focus of this entire argument is that small amounts of chip damage should not spell death.

I had to put life strike and healing return on my weapons for the longest time, recently with the arcanes rework I was able to get the regen ones for the operator, sadly it means I am sacrificing my two operator slots for that, I suggested an increase on health orb drop rates but as usual the shills didn't like it, if we were to have innate health regen I wish we also had energy regen, just give us innate rejuvenation and siphon and then upgrade those auras.

[Steel_Rook]

6 hours ago, (PS4)CodyXSavageX said:

magus repair or elevate not every frame needs a free passive healing source 

Why not?

[H0PE]

On 2019-04-08 at 9:57 PM, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

We've been in a situation like this before: We're playing with a squishy Warframe (Mag, Nyx, etc) and just got done clearing out a hoard of enemies. You're now low on health and not having any luck getting health orbs; so now you're playing more cautiously. Everything is going fine until a stray Toxin or Slash proc hits you. Your health counts down: 10, 4, 2, DEAD. If only you had on a Rejuvenation aura.

  Hide contents

Really it doesn't make sense as to why Warframes can't just naturally regenerate health. They're Infested super-humans crammed full of mythologically advanced technology. The fact they can't heal the occasional scrape or ding without outside aid is baffling.

Ideally Warframes should be able to heal themselves at the tiniest of increments. Not enough to actively heal a good chunk of health between fights, but just enough that the occasional flesh wound will patch itself up after a minute or two. Like (+1 hp / 2 sec) or something.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I've been seeing a lot of comments saying it will "make the game too easy". I'm just gonna throw down some math to offset these argument.

The average Warframe has 300 health at rank 30 with no supplemental mods. If they were given health regen of 1hp per 2 seconds, it would take ~10 minutes to fully regenerate their health from near death. I personally cannot think of any situation in which a player would be on the defensive for 10 solid minutes without health orbs dropping. The focus of this entire argument is that small amounts of chip damage should not spell death.

Unfortunately I disagree. I always have plenty of squad health/shield/energy/ammo restore in my gear slots.

A good and useful tool. Easy to use, can save you exactly in the situations that you described.

And I wouldn't like the devs to start nerfing warframes to give every warframe self healing. Every time there is a new function, feature, etc. you can expect some kind of "nerf" or ability/feature removal... So that wouldn't worth it.

LONG STORY SHORT: Use all your available tools.

[(XBOX)An Angry Mod]

On 2019-04-09 at 5:54 AM, Teridax68 said:

by the largely failed experiment that was Hildryn, the game's only shield-based tank frame, who also happens to be the least-suited for late-game content.

Bruh, failed??? She's one of three frames that strip armor like a hot knife through butter. She is the better version of CP (corrosive projection), now the entire team can run PD (power donation) which is far better than cp in late game content. 

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Mr Spwinkles said:

Bruh, failed??? She's one of three frames that strip armor like a hot knife through butter. She is the better version of CP (corrosive projection), now the entire team can run PD (power donation) which is far better than cp in late game content. 

That's a different discussion in itself. While I've raised ire over the leveling of armor, it has little influence over how Warframes themselves act on the defensive side.

[(XBOX)An Angry Mod]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

That's a different discussion in itself. While I've raised ire over the leveling of armor, it has little influence over how Warframes themselves act on the defensive side.

Yes, you're right. My frustration got the better of me. Back to the topic at hand. Early game content is difficult, theres no doubt. But we all made it. Nothing should be as easy as "lets hide for a minute or two". Having a passive health regen early on sounds nice, but it takes away from so much of the learning curve. A curve that is important in developing the "cant die if they cant hit me" mentality, bullet jumping is effective for that bc early game AI is dumber than bricks.

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Mr Spwinkles said:

Bruh, failed??? She's one of three frames that strip armor like a hot knife through butter. She is the better version of CP (corrosive projection), now the entire team can run PD (power donation) which is far better than cp in late game content. 

... did you read what I said? My point is that Hildryn was an experiment in making a tank based on shields rather than health, and that experiment failed because Hildryn as a baseline dies far too easily to shield-penetrating damage, and only survives if she spams 2 for constant status cleanses and shield steals. Shields are therefore not a good mechanical fit for the current state of the game in the manner they are currently implemented. I am not saying Hildryn herself is a weak frame, because obviously any frame with good amounts of armor stripping is going to work in high-end content. Also, who ever runs 4x Power Donation? Who exactly is going to use a V aura polarity or goodness knows how much Aura Forma just in case a Hildryn will make CP redundant?

Edited May 28, 2019 by Teridax68