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Volt's speed


Cloverdew
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19 minutes ago, moodster said:

oh relax, it was obvious hyperbole...I'm not putting them in the same plane, you people complaining about it are.

"It's just a joke brah" does absolutely nothing to detract from the fact that your defense of Speed's current implementation on allies boils down to: "it's not that bad". That is a terrible excuse: the standard for an ability meant to benefit allies shouldn't be borderline tolerable, it should be at the very least good. If your utility effect on allies does not feel pleasant to experience, why should they experience it?

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Play the game "Properly"? So the proper way to play is your way? I think you've got this backwards. What the OP is asking for is literally forcing his desired "playstyle" on everyone else.

Except as literally said in my previous reply, my way of playing does not force you do change the way you play. Your way of playing does. You are therefore asking for everyone else to change how they play just for your own sake, all while pretending that the people who don't want you forcing your playstyle upon them are somehow the ones doing the forcing. Your argument here is utterly insane.

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There are already several ways to reduce, mitigate, completely eliminate Volt's speed effects on yourself... backflip, don't sprint, stay away, sharp direction change slows momentum, quick 180 degree direction change stops movement, letting go of W instantly stops momentum (if on ground), bullet jumping more often reduces momentum from volt speed, ground slam stops all momentum and is aimable now, aimglide slows your movement, quick melee drops your momentum back down to normal speed with most stances, right click/aim drops you down to normal speed and kills momentum, ask him to stop, find a new squad, play solo, etc etc... I'm not forcing anything on anyone and I have offered a few realistic and constructive options. I haven't seen anyone else offer anything except "I don't like it, give me an off switch."

Except the player has to do all of these things to opt out of the effect you forced upon them. That little in itself is an unwanted and unnecessary disruption to play. What I have been proposing has been for the effect to be opt in, meaning a player wouldn't need to do anything to continue playing uninterrupted, but could still benefit from the utility effect if they so chose.

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"increase in control" is a nonsense term. You can't turn any faster than instantly and it already is instant. It's got nothing to do with being "nice to talk about"... Your "control" is finite no matter what speed you move and there is no delay. The limiting factor is your reaction time, your familiarity with those finite controls and familiarity with the tileset. Also, I did not say it reduces control, I said increased speed cannot possibly increase control. It's not how physics works. There is no "mini-game" It's just walk/sprint speed. Volt doesn't really drift, Nezha drifts. Volt runs. I'm sorry, but if you are drifting past your turn, that is a matter of your familiarity with in game movement mechanics. 

Except the game isn't real-world physics, it's an actual game, and turn speeds aren't instant. I find it surprising that someone advocating for Volt's Speed buff so strongly, or at least its current opt-out implementation, would understand so little about how it actually works: for sure, there is also the question of the player having less time to react to incoming obstacles, but there is also the problem of controls becoming less responsive relative to the player's increased speed, as shown clearly here. It is, in this respect, not all that different from Archwing drift and reduced responsiveness while boosting, two factors contributing to the mode's perceived clunkiness.

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and Finally, did you actually read what I wrote? Stop being angry for a second and read. I clearly offered a suggestion of an in game gear item that you can activate to dispel or nullify ally warframe abilities on yourself in the same paragraph that you quoted. So please tell me again how exactly I am forcing my whims on you...

Because what you posted is utterly irrelevant to the point I made, and itself demonstrates that it is in fact you who are not reading what other people are writing: my central point has been that it is not enough for a disruptive ability to be opt-out, because that much still implies the ability is being forced onto people, who then have to go through some mini-ritual to cleanse themselves of its effects and resume playing normally. Your Gear item therefore would therefore have zero impact on the current problem, to say nothing of how terrible an idea it is to require an entire Gear item for such a niche problem in the first place.

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Look, I get it... You hate Volt's speed buff... but, It's really just not that serious.

There is a big problem with your view on this... "Downsides" are subjective. Volt's speed has no downsides for me... I don't think you understand how limbo's cataclysm actually works (it doesn't affect weapons/projectiles anymore) and that is where a lot of these frustrations come from I feel... Lack of understanding.

Ah, so because you personally don't see any downsides to Volt's Speed, that means the opinions of literally everyone else who disagrees is invalid, and that they're all just bad at the game? Interesting. 🤔

Edited by Teridax68
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Volt's speed should definitely be capped, especially in fissure when your power strength reaches an absurd amount. At this point even frames animations can't work properly, i don't even understand why this power still hasn't been capped yet, one can still get really fast without being almost broken.

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Backflipping to avoid someone elses ability is as irritating as rolling to avoid someone elses ability. Anything like this has always irritated me, regardless that I can still play effectively if struck with it, as said above, if its way too often its disruptive and just bothersome. Should not need to be flipping around purely to avoid something thats more often than not just spammed "whenever" (which is how so many people use it, given he's a starter frame)

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as a speed volt enthusiast I just wanna say whatever DE should do is NOT nerfing the ability in anyway
if anything I want my volt to go faster
volts default speed is very slow I wish volt would match lokis 1.25 default speed and speed abilitys duration is merely 10 seconds by default
I think 20-30 secs would be okay by default

I get it some people dont want the buff I think thats a fine complaint
there was a very small window of time when DE decided to make volts speed buff optional by making it a pickup buff

then they very quickly reversed it for unknown reasons
maybe people complained?

I still think the pickup thing would be great
its clearly visible, easy to avoid and vice versa
maybe give it an additional press use to pickup so no accidental pickups would happen at all

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9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

"It's just a joke brah" does absolutely nothing to detract from the fact that your defense of Speed's current implementation on allies boils down to: "it's not that bad". That is a terrible excuse: the standard for an ability meant to benefit allies shouldn't be borderline tolerable, it should be at the very least good. If your utility effect on allies does not feel pleasant to experience, why should they experience it?

I like how you put a phrases in quotes that I did not say... You're just straw-manning. I am not giving excuses. I have nothing to give excuses for. Volt's speed is very good for me. It's extremely pleasant for me. Again, stop being angry for a moment and read what's been said. I have offered a few suggested tweaks. If you decide to ignore them in favor of ranting, that's your problem. If you don't like them, that's fine... but ranting isn't offering anything constructive.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except as literally said in my previous reply, my way of playing does not force you do change the way you play. Your way of playing does. You are therefore asking for everyone else to change how they play just for your own sake, all while pretending that the people who don't want you forcing your playstyle upon them are somehow the ones doing the forcing. Your argument here is utterly insane.

Wrong. Again you are not reading what's being said angry guy. OP asked for 2 minute lockout of volt speed on backflip. That is forcing your desires on people who enjoy volt speed. When I talk about options I am dismissing yours because you've offered nothing other than being angry and saying give me an off button in menus. Your argument is utterly ignorant.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except the player has to do all of these things to opt out of the effect you forced upon them. That little in itself is an unwanted and unnecessary disruption to play. What I have been proposing has been for the effect to be opt in, meaning a player wouldn't need to do anything to continue playing uninterrupted, but could still benefit from the utility effect if they so chose.

I heard you. I disagree, and explained why more than once. It's disruptive in your opinion. Your proposal needs to be a little more in-depth and fleshed out if you want it to be taken seriously. Don't forget that this is still just a game.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except the game isn't real-world physics, it's an actual game, and turn speeds aren't instant. I find it surprising that someone advocating for Volt's Speed buff so strongly, or at least its current opt-out implementation, would understand so little about how it actually works: for sure, there is also the question of the player having less time to react to incoming obstacles, but there is also the problem of controls becoming less responsive relative to the player's increased speed, as shown clearly here. It is, in this respect, not all that different from Archwing drift and reduced responsiveness while boosting, two factors contributing to the mode's perceived clunkiness.

Turn is instant. If it's not for you, then you have input lag problems and should check your in game settings. Turn off V-sync. I'm not advocating the backflip, I'm just explaining what options currently exist. I would actually prefer the backflip cancel be removed. I like backflipping and I like Volt's speed. I don't want to choose between the two. I'm sorry, but the lack of understanding is on your part. What exactly is your video supposed to prove to me? Controls look perfectly responsive to me. What you are saying is simply not true. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not articulating it as intended... Archwing feels clunky to me because it is difficult to STOP an archwing, and this is one of the many reasons I only use Itzal (2 = instant stop).

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Because what you posted is utterly irrelevant to the point I made, and itself demonstrates that it is in fact you who are not reading what other people are writing: my central point has been that it is not enough for a disruptive ability to be opt-out, because that much still implies the ability is being forced onto people, who then have to go through some mini-ritual to cleanse themselves of its effects and resume playing normally. Your Gear item therefore would therefore have zero impact on the current problem, to say nothing of how terrible an idea it is to require an entire Gear item for such a niche problem in the first place.

Except that entering a mission and activating a gear item would literally solve your complaint for the duration of the mission... an "entire gear item" on an INFINITE gear wheel... Nice job continuing to be the angry guy who doesn't think before he speaks. While I offered that suggestion, I do not think it should be implemented. It is not reasonable to expect every little gripe to be programmed out of existence at your whim. Look, it's a co-op game. There will be negative synergies sometimes or things that you just don't like. There will always be things that aren't perfect or annoy you/me/everyone, dealing with that is just a part of life. It's a part of playing a co-op ability based game. If someone is griefing you with spam abilities, leave the game and find a new squad. Report the person if it is egregious.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Ah, so because you personally don't see any downsides to Volt's Speed, that means the opinions of literally everyone else who disagrees is invalid, and that they're all just bad at the game? Interesting. 🤔

Again, relax. That is not my argument at all, but nice straw man and welcome to hypocrisy. Your claim was that Volt's speed is objectively bad, or has objective downsides, which is untrue (it's entirely subjective). I'm simply pointing out the contrast between your statement of fact (claim), and reality. What I'm saying... is that the original post wanted an arbitrary 2 minute disable of volts speed buff on backflip because some people don't want speed. I DO want speed and find everything about it beneficial... making a change that negatively affects one group just to appease another group is not a positive change. I understand and accept that some people simply dislike the speed buff. I've got no problem with that statement. I'd be willing to have a civil and productive discussion on proposed tweaks with those people. I have a problem with people who claim it's literally uncontrollable or so "invasive" that they can't seem to control their frame or "properly" play the game. Ultimately, I still think it's your skill and familiarity that are lacking.

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10 hours ago, Zanchak said:

Backflipping to avoid someone elses ability is as irritating as rolling to avoid someone elses ability. Anything like this has always irritated me, regardless that I can still play effectively if struck with it, as said above, if its way too often its disruptive and just bothersome. Should not need to be flipping around purely to avoid something thats more often than not just spammed "whenever" (which is how so many people use it, given he's a starter frame)

I can understand this complaint... I could accept (as i said before) making volt speed act like loki's invisibilty. Only allow recasting upon expiration (to stop spam casting). I like being able to spam my speed because it helps get an initial boost when going from zero - full speed and being able to take advantage of growing power at any time, but I could deal with this compromise... I also think the backflip to disable speed should be changed to a hotkey or something that is not already part of an in game movement mechanic.

Edited by moodster
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10 hours ago, Twistedsparkle said:

I still think the pickup thing would be great
its clearly visible, easy to avoid and vice versa
maybe give it an additional press use to pickup so no accidental pickups would happen at all

I feel making it a deliberate pickup that you have to stop moving to use completely contradicts the purpose of the ability. This would constitute a Nerf to me. Needing to stop moving, find the pickup, and press X on a specific spot to gain a buff doesn't seem practical to me. What if the Volt only has like 12s duration? any speed boost would be offset by the time it takes you to stop, find pickup, take pickup, move again. It would probably make you slower in the end.

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2 hours ago, moodster said:

I feel making it a deliberate pickup that you have to stop moving to use completely contradicts the purpose of the ability. This would constitute a Nerf to me. Needing to stop moving, find the pickup, and press X on a specific spot to gain a buff doesn't seem practical to me. What if the Volt only has like 12s duration? any speed boost would be offset by the time it takes you to stop, find pickup, take pickup, move again. It would probably make you slower in the end.

I feel like I need to clarify obviously volt himself would simply able cast speed and well.. be speedy
however that is valid point for allies who want to utilize the buff the duration increase could help

and what if you take the pickup buff and during the duration of speed other pickup buffs wouldnt require that button prompt?
I think then its safe to assume that player wants speed so other speed pickups could become vacuumable

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Volt speed should not be a squad ability. You enjoy it? Then use volt yourself. There is absolutely no valid reason to force it on other players. 

"i use it for myself, I don't care about you. Not my problem if you are too close. Just learn the game and learn how to control your frame. I don't see where is the problem in my way of playing volt." And I could keep going with more exemples of what kind of stupidities you have to deal with when you ask to be able to play at the speed you want.

I have even played with volt players who come back at you to force you even if you just stay back to avoid being in range of the ability. And insult you because you slow their game and force others to play normally. What about that one.... 

I learn to deal with limbo but the more I see volt players, the more I hate them. You guys are the exact definition of being selfish.

Edited by HexOmega111x
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19 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

To put this even more simply, I think the only effects that one player can add to another without the latter needing to opt in are effects with no downsides: dealing more damage obviously has no real downside, nor does damage mitigation. Large movement speed buffs with no increases in control, on the other hand, cause players to lurch and swerve out of control, whereas the Rift outright prevents players from using most of their weapons properly against enemies. These effects can be really powerful and fun to use if done right, but can also mess up the player's gameplay. If the player were to opt into that sort of effect, the responsibility would be on them if they mess up. Forcing those players to experience that effect without them opting in, however, puts the responsibility onto the player who applied the effect, which causes that player to get blamed even if they were trying to help. It would thus be healthier for everyone, including those playing frames with those utility effects, if more disruptive utility were made opt-in by default.

The problem with that mindset is people can have wildly different opinions on upsides and downsides. (Something something Schwartz)

Also, that's... a really really weird mindset to take as a gamer, period. Playing a game well calls for you to be able to handle effects being forced on you outside of your control, and a lot of the time playing a game well means you can handle those effects being forced upon you. I could bring up all sorts of examples from MMOs and pvp games.

Since that forced effect is coming from another player, it gives you a target for any frustration you might feel from failing to adequately handle that effect.

At the end of the day, you already have a way to opt out of all of the frustration that can be caused from squad abilities: solo queue. Because it sounds to me like you want to play with other players, but don't want other players to actually affect your gameplay.

Which means you don't actually want to play with other players.

When playing in multiplayer, it's going to happen that other players have abilities that affect your gameplay. That's literally the whole POINT of multiplayer. It's a given, in any multiplayer game. If you can't accept that, don't play with other players.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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7 hours ago, moodster said:

I like how you put a phrases in quotes that I did not say... You're just straw-manning. I am not giving excuses. I have nothing to give excuses for. Volt's speed is very good for me. It's extremely pleasant for me. Again, stop being angry for a moment and read what's been said. I have offered a few suggested tweaks. If you decide to ignore them in favor of ranting, that's your problem. If you don't like them, that's fine... but ranting isn't offering anything constructive.

Except I'm merely paraphrasing while quoting a popular expression (hence the quotation marks), as the central intent behind your post is the same: you openly claim even here that you don't consider Volt's speed to be a problem, imply that this means that it therefore shouldn't be a problem for anyone else, and when challenged on this, you accuse the other person of straw manning you, of ranting, or just generally being "angry", instead of actually addressing the point. At the end of the day, it is you here who are misrepresenting my position and trying to attack my character in this argument, and all in a desperate attempt to avoid actual constructive discussion, as opposed to the non-solutions you proposed that you don't even believe in.

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Wrong. Again you are not reading what's being said angry guy. OP asked for 2 minute lockout of volt speed on backflip. That is forcing your desires on people who enjoy volt speed. When I talk about options I am dismissing yours because you've offered nothing other than being angry and saying give me an off button in menus. Your argument is utterly ignorant.

Repeatedly whining about how angry I supposedly am as a person does nothing to salvage your argument here: why exactly would the OP be forcing anything on anyone if their suggestion is merely a development upon the current opt-out model? If players are opting out of Speed already, why would it be forceful to make that decision stick longer? You seem to be using arguments and expressions in completely the wrong context in the hope that they'd still somehow stick. Also, this particular claim:

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When I talk about options I am dismissing yours because you've offered nothing other than being angry and saying give me an off button in menus.

Is not just a straw man, but an outright lie. Quote me on where I asked for "an off button in menus". I never asked for anything remotely close to that, only for disruptive abilities to be made opt-in, rather than opt-out. It is ridiculous that you'd accuse me of ignorance when you don't even seem to know what you're actually arguing against here, and it is equally pathetic to try to attack my character when it is you who have openly admitted to having an attitude problem, as shown here:

On 2019-04-23 at 10:19 AM, moodster said:

I will do my best to curb my attitude going forward... I suggest you two do the same.

At this point it doesn't even feel like you're actually arguing with me, so much as projecting onto me your own problems with all of the other people you've been trying to shout down across this thread.

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I heard you. I disagree, and explained why more than once. It's disruptive in your opinion. Your proposal needs to be a little more in-depth and fleshed out if you want it to be taken seriously. Don't forget that this is still just a game.

Explained what? Where? Your only "explanation" so far has been that because you personally don't consider Volt's Speed a problem, and that this somehow means Speed is objectively a problem for no-one else, or shouldn't be because everyone who has a problem with it is "misunderstanding". Also, how can you claim that my proposal "needs to be a little more in-depth and fleshed out if (I) want to be taken seriously", by whichever arbitrary standard you have set for the purpose of this argument, and immediately claim that "this is still just a game"? Is this serious business or is it not?

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Turn is instant. If it's not for you, then you have input lag problems and should check your in game settings. Turn off V-sync.

 

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What exactly is your video supposed to prove to me? Controls look perfectly responsive to me. What you are saying is simply not true.

So at this stage you are simply flat-out lying. The video clearly shows a significant degree of drifting and inertia, particularly at 0:46, 0:56, and 1:36 where Volt is still being carried forward even as he's trying to turn in another direction (which takes a bit of time to start). If your only argument here is to flat-out deny reality, you may as well just admit you're wrong; it'd be less embarrassing.

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I'm not advocating the backflip, I'm just explaining what options currently exist. I would actually prefer the backflip cancel be removed. I like backflipping and I like Volt's speed. I don't want to choose between the two. I'm sorry, but the lack of understanding is on your part.

Literally nothing you have said here is relevant to the argument, as my disagreement with you hinges upon the fact that you want Speed to be opt-out, by whichever convoluted means you've suggested, whereas I'm suggesting to make it opt-in. For someone who keeps accusing others of ignorance or lack of understanding, you seem to be incapable of reading, let alone comprehending the contents of other people's points, even the ones directly addressed to you.

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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not articulating it as intended... Archwing feels clunky to me because it is difficult to STOP an archwing, and this is one of the many reasons I only use Itzal (2 = instant stop).

I could not care less about how you personally feel about Archwing, but what you are describing is indeed drift, as I described. It is humorous that even here, you would still try to attack me in some petty manner, even though the only problem at hand is your own ignorance of the meaning of certain words.

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Except that entering a mission and activating a gear item would literally solve your complaint for the duration of the mission... an "entire gear item" on an INFINITE gear wheel... Nice job continuing to be the angry guy who doesn't think before he speaks.

Except that is what I had read, which is precisely why I pointed out why it's such a terrible idea: you're asking the player to equip and activate a Gear item for an extremely niche purpose that could easily be solved with better ability design. It doesn't matter whether the Gear wheel is infinite or the like, you're asking for the player to either sift through an extra menu, or dedicate an entire hotkey to the sole purpose of opting out of some allied effects. This proposal is so laughable as to be a non-suggestion.

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While I offered that suggestion, I do not think it should be implemented. It is not reasonable to expect every little gripe to be programmed out of existence at your whim.

So it's not reasonable to expect and ask for basic good practices in design then? Presumably, this is the design methodology that led you to come up with the above... "suggestion".

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Look, it's a co-op game. There will be negative synergies sometimes or things that you just don't like. There will always be things that aren't perfect or annoy you/me/everyone, dealing with that is just a part of life. It's a part of playing a co-op ability based game. If someone is griefing you with spam abilities, leave the game and find a new squad. Report the person if it is egregious.

I'm sorry, so is this a game or is this real life, then? Because I can absolutely agree that in real life, you will have to work with difficult people, or well-intentioned people who mess up, and you can't just exit as you please. However, if your co-op video game not only has allies give effects to each other that are unpleasant, but outright forces them to deal with those effects, your co-op is simply poorly designed, and needs a redo. There is literally no reason to uphold ally utility effects when those effects are actively unpleasant for many players to receive. Again, the fact that you're trying to act like all of this should be normal, and so only because you feel this way, comes off as tremendously entitled, not to mention inconsiderate of the opinions of everyone else but yourself.

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Again, relax. That is not my argument at all, but nice straw man and welcome to hypocrisy.

For my argument to be a straw man, it would have to be a misrepresentation of your point. Visibly, it isn't, particularly as I'm not the only one here to have called you out on your condescending, inconsiderate attitude on this thread. My point here is that you don't seem to care about the opinions of other people, which you demonstrate at length, and that your means of dismissing contrary opinions tends to boil down to attacks upon other people's character, as mentioned above and by others already. If this wasn't your argument at all, what then was your argument?

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Your claim was that Volt's speed is objectively bad, or has objective downsides, which is untrue (it's entirely subjective).

I'm sorry, where did I say that Volt's speed was "objectively bad"? Please, by all means, quote me on that. Also, it objectively does have downsides, as noted by the above example of drift, your own admission that it reduces time to react to incoming obstacles, and the simple fact that many people have made complaints about it, hence why the question of changing the way allies interact with Speed comes up often. Just because something is an opinion, and therefore subjective, does not mean it is false or somehow not real. Video games are, by nature, subjective in the way they are experienced: if a number of people end up having similar negative experiences of some aspect of the game, it doesn't matter which standard of objectivity you want to apply, you still have a problem in the end.

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I'm simply pointing out the contrast between your statement of fact (claim), and reality.

Ah, so when someone else has an opinion, it's subjective, and therefore automatically wrong, but when you have an opinion, it automatically becomes "reality". I see. As you yourself said so well: welcome to hypocrisy.

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What I'm saying... is that the original post wanted an arbitrary 2 minute disable of volts speed buff on backflip because some people don't want speed. I DO want speed and find everything about it beneficial... making a change that negatively affects one group just to appease another group is not a positive change.

If you don't want to opt out of Speed... don't opt out of it? You'd still be opting out of it in the same way, so unless you are incapable of controlling your own in-game movements to the point of backflipping willy-nilly (which would already screw you over now), the OP's suggestion wouldn't affect you negatively. Moreover, if you want Speed, why are you opposing my proposals as well, or even your made-up argument about a menu option? I'm merely proposing to make Speed opt-in, so if you wanted it, you'd still be able to benefit fully from it, and if a menu option existed, you could simply ignore it entirely. You alone do not constitute a "group", and ultimately it is your own demands here that are harmful to everyone else, even though none of the proposals made thus far would harm you.

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I understand and accept that some people simply dislike the speed buff. I've got no problem with that statement. I'd be willing to have a civil and productive discussion on proposed tweaks with those people.

But you clearly don't, as you have bloated this thread by picking fights with five different people who, if you were true to your word, you'd only be having "a civil and productive discussion" with. Talking over everyone and repeating how your own opinion is more important than everyone else's is neither civil nor productive, and ultimately you have patently failed to listen to anyone but yourself, or even give a chance to anyone offering suggestions even if they wouldn't negatively affect you.

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I have a problem with people who claim it's literally uncontrollable or so "invasive" that they can't seem to control their frame or "properly" play the game. Ultimately, I still think it's your skill and familiarity that are lacking.

In other words, you believe that anyone who takes issue with Speed and points out specifics is a noob of some kind. This is one of the many reasons why your argument is so fundamentally corrupt, because your entire stance in this thread hinges upon a fundamental disrespect for anyone you disagree with and their opinions. You're not here to actually debate Volt's Speed and how it affects allies, you're just here to act like you're better than everyone else, which is why you have failed to even attempt to understand why others would like the ability, or how other people's suggestions would affect the current state of affairs. Nobody here is claiming that Speed is "literally" uncontrollable (and that kind of hyperbole is precisely the kind of straw man you claim to be attacked with), but there is evidence and even your own admission that it makes traversal less smooth at times, and the simple fact that it is imposed upon people, who then have to opt out of the ability, is pretty basic evidence that it is invasive to many, just like Limbo's Rift. Drawing arbitrary red lines in the sand and misrepresenting other people's arguments ultimately does nothing to hide the fact that you came here with the sole intention of being hostile to anyone you disagreed with.

40 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The problem with that mindset is people can have wildly different opinions on upsides and downsides. (Something something Schwartz)

Sure, but that does not detract from the fact that there tends to be at least some level of consensus on which effects are fine, and which are more controversial: again, Mesa's 2 tends to generate few to no complaints when used on allies, because it's a pure statistical boost. Similarly, the only person who's going to be complaining about a healing effect is Garuda, and so only due to the quirks of her passive. Meanwhile, when Frost's bubble prevents shooting from the outside, that's going to generate complaints. When Limbo turns off interaction between the player and some opponents, that's going to generate a lot of complaints. When Volt's speed buff causes people to veer out of control and have a much harder time moving around, without having asked for that buff, that too is going to generate complaints. This is why threads criticizing these particular effects tend to come up fairly regularly, even though most utility effects generate no real complaints whatsoever. 

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Also, that's... a really really weird mindset to take as a gamer, period. Playing a game well calls for you to be able to handle effects being forced on you outside of your control, and a lot of the time playing a game well means you can handle those effects being forced upon you. I could bring up all sorts of examples from MMOs and pvp games.

Effects forced by the game, yes. Effects forced by players, however, are received differently, hence why those games you're so keen to pull examples from tend to feature player terminology such as "trolling" or "griefing". This is, by the way, a bad thing, and not something you should have in your game unless you have deliberately intended for it to have a trollish atmosphere, which Warframe ostensibly doesn't.

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Since that forced effect is coming from another player, it gives you a target for any frustration you might feel from failing to adequately handle that effect.

See, this is what mystifies me: you seem perfectly aware of the inherent problem in having players disrupt each other's gameplay, yet at the same time you refuse to acknowledge it as a problem, despite the clear negative impact such design has on player enjoyment and interactions. Why?

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At the end of the day, you already have a way to opt out of all of the frustration that can be caused from squad abilities: solo queue. Because it sounds to me like you want to play with other players, but don't want other players to actually affect your gameplay.

... which would make Solo mode a terrible option in this respect, because you wouldn't actually get to play with other players. It's rather silly to frame this as a all-or-nothing situation when the reality is that it's only a select few problem frames that occasionally cause this sort of frustration, in a environment where most pub matches will go just fine for most people. I personally main Trinity, in no small part because I enjoy helping others, and the only time I get yelled at is when someone runs off to the other side of the map and complains about not getting the EV/Blessing they feel entitled to. My Energy provision, healing, and damage all reduction seem to go by just fine, because at the end of the day I'm not forcing anyone to play differently, let alone go out of their way to avoid me disrupting them. 

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Which means you don't actually want to play with other players.

Or, alternatively, you are simply attempting to frame co-op play here in terms of deliberately having to suffer from the interaction of other players, which as a mentality is rather... unpleasant. As mentioned above, I not only do want to play with other players, I very much enjoy it for the most part; I just don't like it when players deploy effects that actively impinge upon my and my teammates' enjoyment of the game. That's not what multiplayer is about, and you are not entitled to make other players suffer in the name of such a horrible dogma.

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When playing in multiplayer, it's going to happen that other players have abilities that affect your gameplay. That's literally the whole POINT of multiplayer. It's a given, in any multiplayer game. If you can't accept that, don't play with other players.

It is interesting that you would conflate abilities that affect gameplay with effects that affect gameplay negatively. Considering how you appear to view suffering as a quintessential element to multiplayer, this is perhaps not surprising, but most people are generally able to tell the difference between positive ally interactions, e.g. reviving, healing, giving Energy, providing damage/defense buffs, or even CCing enemies in a way that sets them up for kills, and negative ones, e.g. limiting or hampering the interaction allies can have with enemies or the environment. As noted by the many, many ally utility effects in Warframe, it is not particularly difficult to design utility in a way that everyone can enjoy. However, when an ability is notoriously unpopular for its disruptive effects on allies, that disruption is simply bad design, and there is no need to keep it, much less enshrine it, when one could have all of the benefits of the ability and none of the downsides via a simple change from opt-out to opt-in (or just a removal of the disruption when it serves no purpose other than to inconvenience the player, e.g. Snow Globe blocking ally projectiles from the outside).

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3 hours ago, Twistedsparkle said:

I feel like I need to clarify obviously volt himself would simply able cast speed and well.. be speedy
however that is valid point for allies who want to utilize the buff the duration increase could help

and what if you take the pickup buff and during the duration of speed other pickup buffs wouldnt require that button prompt?
I think then its safe to assume that player wants speed so other speed pickups could become vacuumable

I knew you meant that only allies would need to pick up the buff. 👍

That's an interesting idea... I hadn't considered that. I just don't know if adding extra mechanics is the best way to go about it. Simple is better IMO and the more we add in an effort to solve a simple problem the more complicated the whole thing gets.

I mentioned there are a few key points making some players hate it so much:

  • very cheap to cast
  • spammable
  • high base energy pool

I honestly think fixing one or two of these will essentially eliminate most of the complaints. The recurring theme in complaints is Volt spamming the ability. Look at Zephyr's Jet Stream augment. The run speed increase is actually very similar to Volt and it is shared across affinity range, but the ability can only be recast after it expires and it also costs significantly more energy. I think just making Volt speed only recastable upon expiration would do the trick. I sure do like being able to cast it whenever though... 

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6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

- snip -

All of that nonsense and you have yet to offer an actual solution besides give me an "opt-in" or "opt-out" (aka off switch). All of your responses show a clear misunderstanding of what I have actually said. You read something I type and add your own hidden meanings to it that simply are not there. Everything you just typed is wrong... addressing it further is a waste of time. You can't see past your anger (or frustration if that makes you feel better). It is clear you are only here to stamp your feet and argue.

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28 minutes ago, moodster said:

All of that nonsense and you have yet to offer an actual solution besides give me an "opt-in" or "opt-out" (aka off switch). All of your responses show a clear misunderstanding of what I have actually said. You read something I type and add your own hidden meanings to it that simply are not there. Everything you just typed is wrong... addressing it further is a waste of time. You can't see past your anger (or frustration if that makes you feel better). It is clear you are only here to stamp your feet and argue.

Or, more simply, you're simply looking for an out in an argument you lost the moment you decided to pick a pointless fight on this thread. Considering how I addressed your points rather thoroughly, with evidence to boot, and how I'm not the only one to have criticized your horrendous attitude on here, it's rather pointless of you to try to play the victim here, much less make me to be the villain in our exchange. Moreover, it's rather cute that you'd accuse me of not proposing a solution... only to yourself give a description of the type of solution I was proposing, which was to make those types of abilities opt-in (which is the exact opposite of "opt-out", and the fact that you seem to be interpreting this as some kind of on-off switch suggests profound ignorance of the terms you are discussing). Meanwhile, you have done nothing except talk over others and argue that Speed has no problems, purely because you don't personally believe it does. Had you not posted at all on this thread, the discussion would have only been the more productive for it.

Just so that we can end on a more constructive note, to elaborate a little bit more on what I mean by "opt-in": I explained this a little bit in my first post, but I think that for potentially disruptive abilities such as Speed, the ability needs to be designed in such a way that its allied interaction is something allies can choose to access in the first place, rather than something they need to opt out of after having it imposed upon them. Some examples in the case of Speed:

  • DE previously experimented with having Speed drop a pickup on-cast that allies could collect to gain the same boost. This fixed the issue of Speed affecting allies who didn't want to be affected, but had the problem of being a bit too inconvenient to pick up for those who did, because they often had to backtrack or otherwise look for an awkwardly-placed shrine. The latter is ultimately why DE reverted this change.
  • Based on the above, though, there are potential developments that could be made:
    1. Instead of dropping just one shrine, Volt could perhaps drop shrines periodically while affected by Speed, allowing players to catch up even if they missed the first one.
    2. Alternatively, Volt could leave behind a continuous trail of lightning, just like Nezha's Fire Walker, and allies walking over it could gain/refresh the Speed bonus.
  • Furthermore, how much of this bonus is given could be adjusted:
    1. The bonus could last for the full remaining duration, with allies being able to backflip out of it if they accidentally walk into Volt's trail or no longer want its effects.
    2. The bonus could last for only a fraction of the duration, so that players would go back to the trail to refresh as needed, or simply stay on it to benefit from it continuously. If there is player demand, ending the effects even earlier via backflip could be kept.
  • An alternative, and much more aggressive approach, could be to have Speed not affect the recipient's base movement speed, but instead only affect their sprint speed. Because sprinting is optional in this respect, and is the button one presses to go faster anyway, it would likely be perceived as much less intrusive by allies made to automatically receive the effects. The obvious downside, however, is that this would affect how Volt himself would play, and not everyone might want to adjust.

So just like that, you already have four/five different concrete implementations of how to make Speed opt-in, rather than opt-out. Thoughts?

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5 hours ago, moodster said:

I knew you meant that only allies would need to pick up the buff. 👍

That's an interesting idea... I hadn't considered that. I just don't know if adding extra mechanics is the best way to go about it. Simple is better IMO and the more we add in an effort to solve a simple problem the more complicated the whole thing gets.

I mentioned there are a few key points making some players hate it so much:

  • very cheap to cast
  • spammable
  • high base energy pool

I honestly think fixing one or two of these will essentially eliminate most of the complaints. The recurring theme in complaints is Volt spamming the ability. Look at Zephyr's Jet Stream augment. The run speed increase is actually very similar to Volt and it is shared across affinity range, but the ability can only be recast after it expires and it also costs significantly more energy. I think just making Volt speed only recastable upon expiration would do the trick. I sure do like being able to cast it whenever though... 

and to those things you mentioned I think those are serious nerfs

like I said I dont want my speed nerfed in any way
recastability is very important maintaining momentum
low energy cost allows blind rage to be viable
high energy pool allows to cut primed flow from build

any of those hampered will ruin speed volt builds

I still think speed itself should be buffed and the speed buff itself should be made optional in one form or another
everybody wins

would it be way more complicated to do from DE:s side? yes absolutely but I dont think thats a bad thing necessarily
volt could use help in other abilities too like shock and electric shield so addressing multiple issues in a bigger revisits is not a bad idea

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2 hours ago, Benour said:

So volt speed is now griefing.

OMEGALUL

I mean, it's not pleasant, and deliberately advocating for players to lessen their teammates' enjoyment of the game is indeed pushing for griefing. There seems to be this assumption that multiplayer can't exist without players frustrating each other, and an even worse assumption that in co-op players should frustrate each other, which is so mind-bogglingly stupid that it makes me question whether some of the people here play video games at all, let alone Warframe. As noted by the reactions to your... input, I'd say mine are not the comments people are laughing the most at here.

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5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Or, more simply, you're simply looking for an out in an argument you lost the moment you decided to pick a pointless fight on this thread. Considering how I addressed your points rather thoroughly, with evidence to boot, and how I'm not the only one to have criticized your horrendous attitude on here, it's rather pointless of you to try to play the victim here, much less make me to be the villain in our exchange. Moreover, it's rather cute that you'd accuse me of not proposing a solution... only to yourself give a description of the type of solution I was proposing, which was to make those types of abilities opt-in (which is the exact opposite of "opt-out", and the fact that you seem to be interpreting this as some kind of on-off switch suggests profound ignorance of the terms you are discussing). Meanwhile, you have done nothing except talk over others and argue that Speed has no problems, purely because you don't personally believe it does. Had you not posted at all on this thread, the discussion would have only been the more productive for it.

Just so that we can end on a more constructive note, to elaborate a little bit more on what I mean by "opt-in": I explained this a little bit in my first post, but I think that for potentially disruptive abilities such as Speed, the ability needs to be designed in such a way that its allied interaction is something allies can choose to access in the first place, rather than something they need to opt out of after having it imposed upon them. Some examples in the case of Speed:

  • DE previously experimented with having Speed drop a pickup on-cast that allies could collect to gain the same boost. This fixed the issue of Speed affecting allies who didn't want to be affected, but had the problem of being a bit too inconvenient to pick up for those who did, because they often had to backtrack or otherwise look for an awkwardly-placed shrine. The latter is ultimately why DE reverted this change.
  • Based on the above, though, there are potential developments that could be made:
    1. Instead of dropping just one shrine, Volt could perhaps drop shrines periodically while affected by Speed, allowing players to catch up even if they missed the first one.
    2. Alternatively, Volt could leave behind a continuous trail of lightning, just like Nezha's Fire Walker, and allies walking over it could gain/refresh the Speed bonus.
  • Furthermore, how much of this bonus is given could be adjusted:
    1. The bonus could last for the full remaining duration, with allies being able to backflip out of it if they accidentally walk into Volt's trail or no longer want its effects.
    2. The bonus could last for only a fraction of the duration, so that players would go back to the trail to refresh as needed, or simply stay on it to benefit from it continuously. If there is player demand, ending the effects even earlier via backflip could be kept.
  • An alternative, and much more aggressive approach, could be to have Speed not affect the recipient's base movement speed, but instead only affect their sprint speed. Because sprinting is optional in this respect, and is the button one presses to go faster anyway, it would likely be perceived as much less intrusive by allies made to automatically receive the effects. The obvious downside, however, is that this would affect how Volt himself would play, and not everyone might want to adjust.

So just like that, you already have four/five different concrete implementations of how to make Speed opt-in, rather than opt-out. Thoughts?

Actually, I just couldn't bring myself to comb through that last wall of text in this ever escalating ego contest. I could say you lost the argument the moment you decided to cherry pick and twist what I said to fit your narrative. Nobody wins an internet argument. You've misrepresented my arguments in all of your responses. I know what I meant by what I said, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was unintentional. I saw you claim I straw manned, lied, etc... which is utterly false. I directly addressed what I read. It's plausible you intended it to be interpreted differently just as I intended what I said to be interpreted completely differently than you took it. My first response to you was not hostile in the slightest and had no attitude, but you replied with what I took to be snide remarks and it snowballed. This thread would certainly have been more productive without you. I've had several amicable exchanges with other people while you have exclusively focused on arguing with me and a few times one other person.

Just saying "opt-in" isn't exactly offering a solution and it was far from thorough. When you first started saying "opt-in" I took it to mean you wanted a toggle like the OP asked for. I think I understand now you were trying to make the distinction between having to turn the buff off (backflip) vs the ability to have it not affect you in the first place. I understand the "terms" I misunderstood your intent. Probably because someone else said give us an opt-out, but he did actually mean an on/off switch. Calling it profound ignorance is a bit of a stretch. An opt-in/Opt-out is often represented by a checkbox or radio button.

I actually never argued that speed has no problems. I acknowledged that some players don't like it. You said: speed has downsides. What I actually said in response was: "Downsides are subjective. Volt's speed has no downsides for me whether I am Volt or any other frame..."  I did not argue that volt is good for me therefore it's not a problem. I simply said it's subjective, meaning good for some bad for others. 

I fundamentally disagree with you on how abilities "should" interact with allies. 

I've already addressed the speed pickup/drop idea with someone else. 

Lightning trail would most likely still get complaints as I'm sure it would be difficult for some to avoid and would likely be an inconsistent method of either giving or avoiding the buff.

I disagree with backflips cancelling the buff. As I have mentioned before, I often backflip in game and don't want it cancelling my buffs especially if you (or OP) want to add an arbitrary time ban for the buff.

Speed only affecting sprint sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I don't see this having and tangible negative effects on a volt, but it could also be made to only effect allies this way. It may placate some of the complaints, but I think you would still have people saying they are being forced to walk when they want to run at their modded/desired speed. I'm surprised you would offer this one, it seems like something you would object to.

I still think the simplest is probably the best... make speed only re-castable upon expiration. 

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54 minutes ago, moodster said:

Actually, I just couldn't bring myself to comb through that last wall of text in this ever escalating ego contest. I could say you lost the argument the moment you decided to cherry pick and twist what I said to fit your narrative. Nobody wins an internet argument. You've misrepresented my arguments in all of your responses. I know what I meant by what I said, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was unintentional. I saw you claim I straw manned, lied, etc... which is utterly false. I directly addressed what I read. It's plausible you intended it to be interpreted differently just as I intended what I said to be interpreted completely differently than you took it. My first response to you was not hostile in the slightest and had no attitude, but you replied with what I took to be snide remarks and it snowballed. This thread would certainly have been more productive without you. I've had several amicable exchanges with other people while you have exclusively focused on arguing with me and a few times one other person.

But this is itself false, as a) I in fact directly explained my arguments with reasoning and evidence, including your own quotes, and b) you haven't, as illustrated especially by these last few posts where you don't even pick any particular part of my post to answer, let alone point to evidence to support your points. Moreover, the literal first line in your reply to my post was this:

On 2019-04-23 at 1:47 PM, moodster said:

I still think this is just a matter of people not having much experience with it or movement mechanics overall. 

So right off the bat, you were attempting to assassinate the character of anyone who criticized Volt's Speed, and by extension mine, and on top of this your very first post on this thread is this:

On 2019-04-09 at 9:02 AM, moodster said:

Just don't sprint while under the effects of volt's speed... Why would you not want reload speed? I don't really know why you wouldn't want speed in general if your goal is to rush through a fissure cap... This is such a minute and trivial thing, it's a waste of everyone's time to even mention it to be honest... It's no different than me being annoyed by frost putting bubbles everywhere on a low level defense that I can't shoot through. It's just how the ability works. Most speed volts will have negative range anyway so just stay 10 meters away from them. Mine is 8.5m range.

Also, 2 is volt's speed. 3 is shield.

Which is a tremendously dismissive response. Again, the fact that you were outright called out on your attitude here:

On 2019-04-22 at 7:35 PM, Wiergate said:

OK, ignore what I said about 'thoughtful approach' above. Clearly it didn't last. 
It's not about about not being able to handle it, nor basic controls 3000 hours in or what's 'needed' for trivial missions in a trivially easy game.
It's about one's enjoyment of a co-op game being curtailed because an immensely - yes - invasive ability is in the hands of players who are so poor at listening that they believe explaining universally known sprint mechanics in a condescending tone will solve the problem. 
   
Just give us the frigging opt-out already.  

And you yourself admitted that your attitude had a problem here:

On 2019-04-23 at 10:19 AM, moodster said:

I will do my best to curb my attitude going forward... I suggest you two do the same.

Goes directly against your claim that your exchanges on here have been largely amicable. You have only been amicable towards people you agree with, and hostile and condescending towards everyone else. All of your posts, additionally, are direct responses to other people, whereas my first post here was directed towards no-one in particular, and was merely me trying to give constructive input.

See what I did there? I claim to address your points, then actually address them, and use verifiable evidence, in this case quotes, in other cases videos, to prove my point. By contrast, so far you've made a lot of claims and assertions, but those claims have been unsubstantiated at best, and proven lies at worst. Simply parroting back my criticisms of your posts, and appropriating my claims for yourself, as if we were in preschool, doesn't make you come across as more convincing when you don't have a leg to stand on.

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Just saying "opt-in" isn't exactly offering a solution and it was far from thorough.

Sure, it's not a thorough solution by any stretch, but why does it need to be? It at the very least offered input on what a solution should include, and could have informed brainstorming on what an opt-in solution could look like if you weren't so focused on personally attacking every critic of a notoriously flawed ability.

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When you first started saying "opt-in" I took it to mean you wanted a toggle like the OP asked for. I think I understand now you were trying to make the distinction between having to turn the buff off (backflip) vs the ability to have it not affect you in the first place. I understand the "terms" I misunderstood your intent. Probably because someone else said give us an opt-out, but he did actually mean an on/off switch. Calling it profound ignorance is a bit of a stretch. An opt-in/Opt-out is often represented by a checkbox or radio button.

But here's the thing: you're only admitting to this now. Throughout this entire time, even as I was pointing out how you were misunderstanding what I meant, and even asked you to check back on what you were saying, you still kept going on, all while declaring with seemingly absolute confidence that you hadn't made any mistakes, and that I was instead saying something I had demonstrably never said. On top of that, I had gone at length to explain what I meant by opt-in, and each time contrasted it with opt-out mechanics, with Speed itself as an example in both its current and temporary shrine-based implementation. I can appreciate that you're at least admitting to the misunderstanding after all this time, but then how do you justify your past behavior? How do you expect me or anyone else to take you on your word for anything now, when there has been such a discrepancy between your own feelings and reality?

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I actually never argued that speed has no problems. I acknowledged that some players don't like it. You said: speed has downsides. What I actually said in response was: "Downsides are subjective. Volt's speed has no downsides for me whether I am Volt or any other frame..."  I did not argue that volt is good for me therefore it's not a problem. I simply said it's subjective. 

Okay, but you are using the term "subjective" as if this somehow gave you license to dismiss the criticisms made by other people, or made them somehow not real. As said already, games as a whole are subjective, and trying to make value judgments based on purely objective criteria is a never-ending, pointless rabbit hole. If a feature gets routinely criticized by many different people, there's likely a problem, whether or not you personally feel like there is. Moreover, it is in fact possible to argue that Speed has downsides; as you said in one of your replies:

On 2019-04-23 at 5:31 PM, moodster said:

Your "control" is finite no matter what speed you move and there is no delay. The limiting factor is your reaction time, your familiarity with those finite controls and familiarity with the tileset.

Because Speed increases the speed at which one traverses tilesets, it therefore logically reduces the reaction time we have to deal with incoming obstacles. This is also a problem with K-Drives, for example, because their pre-emptive jumps become increasingly less reliable to pull off the faster one goes (and the vastness of the maps they work on means there's not always much familiarity on the details to work with). Having less time to deal with incoming obstacles is, to most people, a downside, one compounded by the evidence I provided that Speed does in fact generate a degree of drift. There's also this little tidbit:

On 2019-04-22 at 6:12 AM, moodster said:

yeah they did. Doors are now client side and it is MUCH improved, but I do still smash into doors sometimes, usually if a teammate goes through the door first and I arrive as the door is closing. 

So, by your own admission, there are downsides to Volt's Speed.

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I fundamentally disagree with you on how abilities "should" interact with allies. 

Why? Disagreement's fine, but if you want this to have any weight in an argument, it would serve to explain what you think is wrong with my stance, or why yours is better. At this stage, I don't even know what your stance is on ally interaction, other than some puerile nonsense about how people who don't like having their play disrupted by allies are just bad at the game, and need to either deal with it or get gud, as evidenced here:

On 2019-04-09 at 6:30 PM, moodster said:

they already can disable it and volt's acceleration is too slow for me as a volt and as someone else receiving the buff. It's really not an issue... you just need to get better at movement. Now you're asking to remove the run speed but keep the reload and fire rate? lol just stop... please stop.

So no, I'm not straw manning you, you did in fact demonstrate this attitude on multiple occasions.

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I've already addressed the speed pickup/drop idea with someone else. 

Which I read, and had addressed in my very first post. My above post on pickups develops on that, addressing precisely the criticism you and I had made of the original pickup idea, and from what I've seen that is not something you've talked about yet. So then, what do you think of multiple pickups?

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Lightning trail would most likely still get complaints as I'm sure it would be difficult for some to avoid and would likely be an inconsistent method of either giving or avoiding the buff.

But would it get as many complaints as this? Why would it be difficult? How can you even make such a claim when you have no idea what the trail's proportions would be, how long its buff duration would last, and so on? For someone who loudly demanded solutions, it doesn't seem like you're actually willing to discuss more concrete proposals, so much as just dismiss them out of hand and talk more about yourself instead.

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I disagree with backflips cancelling the buff. As I have mentioned before, I often backflip in game and don't want it cancelling my buffs especially if you (or OP) want to add an arbitrary time ban for the buff.

I'm not the OP, and it's the OP who proposed the time ban, so it makes little sense to conflate us. If you don't want backflips to cancel the buff, then, what's your solution for a replacement? To make the buff impossible to cancel? To add a clunky, hyper-niche gear item? I hardly ever backflip at all, so this issue doesn't affect me: by your logic, I should have no reason to care about your complaint, which is far more niche than any criticism of Volt's Speed in the first place.

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Speed only affecting sprint sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I don't see this having and tangible negative effects on a volt, but it could also be made to only effect allies this way. It may placate some of the complaints, but I think you would still have people saying they are being forced to walk when they want to run at their modded/desired speed. I'm surprised you would offer this one, it seems like something you would object to.

Perhaps this might be only my own subjective experience, but I rarely sprint in Warframe: whenever I want to go somewhere fast, I either bullet jump + roll + aim glide + slide my way there, or Void Dash (or use Archwing in open levels). Thus, sprinting is a deliberate choice for me, and a speed buff that were to only affect sprinting wouldn't affect my normal high-speed movement, only offer me an additional mode of rapid traversal. Because there are so many different options for moving at above-average speed, it also diffuses the disruption tied to Speed, as opposed to having that modifier affect the player's base movement speed (which one can't really opt out of, so much as minimize by just parkouring like a maniac). 

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I still think the simplest is probably the best... make speed only re-castable upon expiration. 

But how does that answer anyone's complaints? Players who dislike Speed would still have to backflip out of it (or use a Gear item, by your own proposal), so there would still be disruption, and if we're implementing only this change, without any changes to how to opt out of it, that means that not only would you still risk unintentionally cancelling the buff via backflipping, you'd get locked out for longer, just like with the OP's proposal. Add to this the fact that it would give the Volt player less control over their own kit, and would take away their option to refresh their buff even if they go for a minimum range/solo build that wouldn't affect anyone else, and this would likely create far more problems than it would solve, if it would even solve anything.

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10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

-snip-

I intentionally did not break down your replies line by line because It would only further add to this nonsense and solve nothing. I laughed a little when I saw another wall of text. 

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26 minutes ago, moodster said:

I intentionally did not break down your replies line by line because It would only further add to this nonsense and solve nothing. I laughed a little when I saw another wall of text. 

Or, more simply, you cannot give any actual answer without admitting to being wrong. I did invite you to discuss more neutral territory with concrete suggestions, but even that much is apparently too constructive for your tastes.

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Or, more simply, you cannot give any actual answer without admitting to being wrong. I did invite you to discuss more neutral territory with concrete suggestions, but even that much is apparently too constructive for your tastes.

Whatever makes you feel better. Your "invitation" was riddled with far from neutral attacks, misrepresentations, cherry picking. 

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4 hours ago, moodster said:

Whatever makes you feel better. Your "invitation" was riddled with far from neutral attacks, misrepresentations, cherry picking. 

If you want to call well-founded criticisms "far from neutral attacks", direct quotes of your own posts "misrepresentations", and thorough answers to each and every one of your points "cherry picking", all in direct response to your own overtly hostile replies, then sure, what are words anyway. You demanded concrete suggestions that met some arbitrary standard of thoroughness, I provided some, yet you show zero interest in those, which I think is clear evidence that you were never here to actually discuss anything productive, so much as just pick fights with people with opinions that differed from yours, starting with your very first reply on this thread.

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В 24.04.2019 в 18:58, Teridax68 сказал:
  • DE previously experimented with having Speed drop a pickup on-cast that allies could collect to gain the same boost. This fixed the issue of Speed affecting allies who didn't want to be affected, but had the problem of being a bit too inconvenient to pick up for those who did, because they often had to backtrack or otherwise look for an awkwardly-placed shrine. The latter is ultimately why DE reverted this change.
  • Based on the above, though, there are potential developments that could be made:
    1. Instead of dropping just one shrine, Volt could perhaps drop shrines periodically while affected by Speed, allowing players to catch up even if they missed the first one.
    2. Alternatively, Volt could leave behind a continuous trail of lightning, just like Nezha's Fire Walker, and allies walking over it could gain/refresh the Speed bonus.
  • Furthermore, how much of this bonus is given could be adjusted:
    1. The bonus could last for the full remaining duration, with allies being able to backflip out of it if they accidentally walk into Volt's trail or no longer want its effects.
    2. The bonus could last for only a fraction of the duration, so that players would go back to the trail to refresh as needed, or simply stay on it to benefit from it continuously. If there is player demand, ending the effects even earlier via backflip could be kept.
  • An alternative, and much more aggressive approach, could be to have Speed not affect the recipient's base movement speed, but instead only affect their sprint speed. Because sprinting is optional in this respect, and is the button one presses to go faster anyway, it would likely be perceived as much less intrusive by allies made to automatically receive the effects. The obvious downside, however, is that this would affect how Volt himself would play, and not everyone might want to adjust.

Thank you for good ideas. Added to suggestions.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2019-04-10 at 1:24 AM, Voltage said:

Your suggestion will destroy anyone who loves Volt and uses a backflip accidentally or on purpose for the duration of any capture/exterminate mission. I understand your point of view and that it frustrates you, but in all honesty, YOU SHOULD JUST LEARN HOW TO PLAY WHEN UNDER THIS EFFECT. If not, you can stay behind for about 5 seconds and the Volt will never be in range of you. 

Opting out of buffs is fine, but one parkour move removing a buff for 2 minutes seems more negative than positive.

There is no learning to get used to simulator sickness which Volt's speed aggravates. As for staying behind for about 5 secs, not possible when the volt isnt moving in a straight line ahead of me. Volts often speed ALL OVER THE MAP and to avoid one would mean stopping what i am doing to see if i can locate them on the map, so i can move away from them and hope they don't then come towards me again. THERE IS NO AVOIDING IT BY MOVING AWAY because the Volt is going to continue to move around.
Leaving group if there is a volt present now presents more of a problem with newly unvaulted Volt Prime, as there are going to be a whole lot more Volts Primes being leveled up and they won't all be doing it on Hydron.. Its going to be hard to avoid being in group with a Volt.
Some have suggested then that those of us who dont like Volt's speed can play solo, except that doesn't work well for cracking relics, or Arbitration or ESO and ruins the whole MMOS thing where we get to play with other people.
And there are Volt players who resent being asked not to use speed, and some will spam it because its annoying to others.
 

On 2019-04-10 at 5:01 AM, Voltage said:

If players want to not be under the influence of Volt, they can simply alt tab for a second or 2 and be out of range of Volt's Speed cast radius. The solution to this "problem" is staying away from the frame you dislike, not ruining it for other people.

Alt Tab takes us out of the game onto another screen on the computer and it enough time to die in.
How do i stay away from a Volt that continues to move around the map at Volt speed? Its brings down my level of enjoyment for a mission if i have to pay attention to what someone else is doing and where they are going instead of playing the game.
 

I would really love it if Volt was the only one who got to experience Volt's speed skill, then they can spam speed to their hearts content. If I want to move across the map quickly I'd use Volt or a fast frame/mod build

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