Nightwave Progression Suggestion/Feedback

[Malkiur]

So ever since Nightwave was released, I've been engaged and playing the game so much more than ever before. The challenges fill up those empty moments when I just stay on my ship, wondering what I should do next not to get bored completely and quit. But, I realized that the further away we get from the launch of this new and overhauled alert system, the more I hear about how people do not have the proper story or missions unlocked to do some of the weekly challenges. Or their gear is not good enough. I also hear more experienced players saying that they have completed all the challenges within the first day, or even faster. This is a massive problem, especially considering how recently we've been hearing more and more about making early game easier and more engaging for the new players, right?

And so I had this idea, what if Nightwave challenges were a little more progressive. For example, the Elite Weekly Challenges are usually ones that involve tasks that players unlock or start doing by the time they get to MR 8. Like long Kuva runs or other Survival missions, wave 40 defenses, even the easier tasks like Halls of Ascension or Vaults. Some of the players I've met and helped had no idea these things even existed. One of these players was even MR 11 when I told him about the Lua puzzles. The general idea I'm striving towards here is to give new players easier tasks to complete, but still gain the same amount of points towards Nightwave ranks as players at higher MR. Maybe make Elite challenges unlock at a certain MR, like 8 or 10, and replace them with easier mini tasks before that MR is achieved. Not only that, higher MR players would definitely like a more challenging experience from these 'Elite' tasks. Not something like 2 hours in a survival mission, or 60 waves on defense, please, no. But something more on the lines of the riven challenges, like completing an exterminate mission solo without getting detected. Or 'Kill 750 enemies in a single Survival mission'. Maybe something that adds to preventing leeching or afk during endless missions? Ranks shouldn't all have the same amount of points to achieve, they should start low, and end at an even higher cap than 10k, just enough to compensate for the lower point caps on earlier ranks.

In any case, I thought I'd leave this here and see what happens. Thanks for reading if you did!

Edited April 9, 2019 by Malkiur

[PitViperK]

I've had similar discussions. Nightwave is especially unfriendly to new players; particularly the reputation locked ones. That and not every new player has 3 geared people to carry them through a one hour kuva mission with no oxygen canisters.  

My conclusion was closer to a currency based achievement system, but using the easy to difficult progression like what you're suggesting. 

In Warframe most NPC factions have reputation and that is the currency. I like that Nightwave is different, but dislike that the 'Wolf Creds' will disappear if unused. An achievement system (which Nightwave already has in place, with missions) would solve many of these problems. 

Nora reminds me of Tokyo Rose or Axis Sally. It just....fits the world. I also like that there's a series of missions for each story series she tells; seeing those stories rotate while giving relevant rewards AND currency for Nightwave would be ideal. Her current voice pack could be the announcer for completed achievement progression AND Nightwave, which would be tied to each other. 

An achievement system would give both the casuals and the hardcore players a goal. It could be tied to 'profile' under an 'achievements' tab.  

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by PitViperK
Grammar and clarification.

[random__noob]

My conclusion was Riven-style challenges. With lower mastery rank, the difficulty is lower by having fewer modifiers. Like "Achieve 10 headshot kills" and if you are above a certain mastery you get an added "with your secondary" and then if you are above 20 mastery rank "while playing solo". Since Riven challenges are established, more experienced players will likely not be confused by the modifiers, and new players get easy quests that dont scare them away.

There should be an option to reroll quests if you simply think they are no fun. Something that we can spend a day at the forge with, and a few resources that dont hurt much to spend.

Right now we have 2 weeks in a row of "Do 40 missions thank you very much" which is just abysmal. I already told my friends I grind to 30 even though I hate doing it, then I only login and quit again. I am fatigued. These things are so time consuming that anything we wanted to do in the past is pretty much impossible. Want to replay questlines? No chance, your playcard is full. Want to farm Focus? No chance, you got 3 open Elite challenges to do. Just want to login, forma an interesting gun and do 2 rifts? Not a rift challenge week, you better dont. Also dont forma stuff, we will ask you to forma stuff real soon, and you may run out of stuff to forma. Because we got Melee 3.0 coming up, so forma-ing any melee makes absolutely zero sense, and we absolutely nerfed the living heck out of the most forma-encouraging mechanic in the game (Rivens), so you should by now have absolutely no idea what even makes SENSE to forma. And since all our sorties seem to drop Ayatan garbage now, you dont even get a new riven for a weird gun, so yeah, please forma 3 items.

The way it is right now is not enjoyable, and I had hopes it would be modified into something good. But the story is poor and unengaging (who CARES about another assasin? If he doesnt show up it is as if the story wasnt even HAPPENING. That is just the opposite of good story telling) and the challenges are repetetive and over 50% of them are ridiculously time intense. And the communication is plain horrible, in terms of whats gonna happen, if the last week will have more quests for people to catch up, or just reward double or at least some of the quests not gonna be as ridiculous the second time around. Endless complains and no reply on what DE actually makes of all this.

It is frustrating.

 

EDIT: Pleasing everybody is difficult. Right now you seem to have a few different cathegories of Feedback, summarized as:
- "I cant play for a few weeks, so there isnt any way to get to level 30"
- "I dont mind investing a lot of time into the quests, so dont dumb down the challenges just to please the low-MR-players"
- "I simply dont enjoy doing 10 nightmares, 9 invasions, 10 relics and next week the same thing again"

There is a bit of a solution for that: Weekly modifiers. Set up the same amount of challenges per week as you do now, that seems fine. But add one weekly modifier. For example: "Every Nightmare mission you complete this week will give you 300 Nightwave standings". People that WANT to can then accelerate their farm, covering the gaps for non-play weeks. People that just need a few more points can hop into one nightmare and get something out of it. And there would still be enough regular challenges to complete rank 30. Please: Put all the really grindy challenges into a repeatable weekly gameplay modifier that will give you a reward for every time you do it. That should motivate the really grindy players, and the players that dont enjoy that can simply ignore them and do challenges that dont take as much time to complete.

Edited April 11, 2019 by random__noob

[PitViperK]

 

So, here is what I was trying to communicate. Several games have instituted an achievement system. World of Warcraft is a more well known one, while Xbox and Steam are the more popular platforms that use these. 

Thus, for simplification, what I am suggesting is the following,

--Update GUI under the Profile area. Currently it is Profile->Equipment->Stats->Syndicates->Challenges->Wishlist

I'm asking to augment the 'Challenges' one, to keep track of a richer achievement progression, even through a submenu or several submenues to categorize these achievements more in depth.

--An easy to intermediate to hard list of achievements ranging from planet/world exploration to weapon unlocks, to warframe collections. 

--That these achievements give a static set of rewards once unlocked. "(X) Nightwave Currency and Heat Dagger for mastering 5 melee weapons." as an example.

--That these achievements, themselves, remain static so there is no rush to do them...but it gives a direction for people who wish to. 

--That Nora be the announcer for when an achievement is unlocked. 

--That the stories Nora tells give rewards tied to the current rotation along with "(X) Nightwave Currency".

--That the Nightwave currency be similar to Baro Ka'teer's ducats, that neither expire or require reputation to use. Let the shop rotate, excepting for a few static items. Some of these would be able to be purchased several times, some only once (like Warframe slot x1 or Weapon slot x2 so as to help newer players). 

I hope this made more sense than my previous post. 

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by PitViperK

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2019-04-09 at 5:36 AM, Malkiur said:

Some of the players I've met and helped had no idea these things even existed.

With how essential the wiki is, I'm starting to think the devs need to include some way to read it from inside the game, and even have the Lotus direct the player to it at some point.

Half the things in this game, I only understand because I checked the wiki.
 

On 2019-04-09 at 5:50 PM, PitViperK said:

I've had similar discussions. Nightwave is especially unfriendly to new players; particularly the reputation locked ones. That and not every new player has 3 geared people to carry them through a one hour kuva mission with no oxygen canisters.  

On 2019-04-09 at 5:36 AM, Malkiur said:

the more I hear about how people do not have the proper story or missions unlocked to do some of the weekly challenges. Or their gear is not good enough. I also hear more experienced players saying that they have completed all the challenges within the first day, or even faster.

What if... the acts themselves were different depending on how you have progressed in the game? Different types of acts can have their own internal checklist to make sure a player is given an appropriate act that they have the ability to complete. It could check MR, starchart progression, syndicate standings, which quests they have completed, how many relics they have opened, how much they have used forma/potatoes, etc. Any number of things, to sort of "vet" that act for the player.
 

On 2019-04-11 at 10:54 AM, random__noob said:

- "I cant play for a few weeks, so there isnt any way to get to level 30"

Well one solution to this is to add a "Rested" mechanic like many MMOs have. Every full day that you don't log in could give you a bonus to Nightwave gains. Alternatively, you could gain access to special acts that only show up if you've been inactive for a certain amount of time. Maybe if you're inactive for a week, when you next login, you see two weeks' worth of acts. But those extra acts only show up if you've been inactive for long enough.

Edited April 18, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Malkiur]

Wow, this thread has blown up slightly more than I expected! For some reason, I did not get a single notification even though I am following this as well. Oh well! In any case, I've read through all the comments and I have to admit, a lot of the complaints come down to making the challenges more dynamic. And exactly how I stated in my original post, and you guys have done as well;

- Adding easier, more common challenges like the riven veils into the rotation, maybe on top of the ones we already have. Dilute the rotation.

- A system to replace any current challenge once a week to make it a little more customizable.

- Unlocking new types of challenges depending on the player's state in the game (Story, Chart, MR, Achievements, that sort of thing).

- A system in place for those who are not present during some weeks of the Phase.

Also, as you guys mentioned, some kind of a tutorial system could be a good addition. What if Nora could explain the basics behind any given challenge. Say a Kuva survival mission - the player asks for a description and Nora comes up with a quote "Dreamers! Kuva is a substance loved by the Grineer Queens. They collect it's essence all around our system. Battle 'The War Within', and root the Queens' beloved Kuva out of their own home.". Just a tad cryptic at first, but pretty obvious of a pointer.

Those are pretty good points from everyone, and I hope DE takes note of how good of a concept Nightwave is, but how badly it is presented right now, especially to new players and those who have not unlocked or played some of the higher tier mechanics and missions yet.

[Els236]

I'm currently mastery rank 22.

I quit the game 2 or 3 years ago when I was mastery rank 18. Only came back recently as I was going to play Anthem and was like, nahh, I'll go back to Warframe.

Nightwave started about 2 days after I came back.

 

Even at Mastery Rank 18, I had:

- Not done any of the required quests, as they didn't exist 2-3 years ago

- Didn't have operator for the same reason

- Didn't know about Lua puzzles (or even have Lua on my map)

- Didn't have Index, or even know it existed

- Had 0 reputation with the Ostron or Solaris United as they didn't exist

- Many, many other things

 

Basically, I had to spend the first 2 weeks or so of Nightwave completing everything in order to even start Nightwave. 

Imagine what it's like for new players!

 

Secondly, what are people spending Wolf creds on? I can bet that 90% of people are buying Nitain extract with them and only N.E.

So much stuff requires that idiotic ressource to craft and Nightwave is essentially the only way to get it, locked behind rubbish "quests" and rubbish rewards. 

 

The main issue is that new players are the ones who want Forma bundles and mods and credits and stuff, but they can't complete enough Nightwave "quests" to get them, yet Veteran players can do the "quests" to get these rewards but simply don't need or want them. (Who needs a Forma bundle when you have 50 Forma blueprints?) 

All of the useless junk rewards should have been put at the first few levels of N.W., so that the newbies could get them easily, then the other rewards should have been put nearer the end, so that Vets. have a reason to actually do Nightwave. 

Then, the cosmetics and Nitain credits (essentially what they are), should be gated, not behind N.W. level, but behind a "quest counter": you do 15 Nightwave quests, you get Nitain credits, you do 30 quests and you get Saturn Six Syandana, or something like that; I think it would be a lot better.

 

Finally, a small edit. Yes, I can now complete every single Nightwave mission for a given week in less than a day. The only one I have issues with is the current "do 3 waves of Index without enemy putting a point". Everything else is a breeze. You can sometimes do 10 Nightmare missions in a row or you can combine them like you can combine "open x relics" with "complete x sabotage/spy/etc mission type"; Take Ignis Wraith to Sanctuary Onslaught and complete all of the "kill x enemies with y damage type", "kill x enemies", "kill x eximus", "kill x y" in one go in about 8 zones. 

As long as you have a small portion of standing with the Ostron or Solaris United, doing the "complete x bounties" and "mine x rare gems", or "fish x rare fish", take less than an hour. 

This is too easy for Vets. yet potentially too hard for Newbies, who don't have Index unlocked, or an Ignis wraith, or decent gear to do S.O., or even standing with PoE/Orb Vallis. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Els236

[Caripillar]

Reading through this thread, it seems a lot of people have also had similar thoughts. I like the idea and the intentions behind the implementation of Nightwave in place of alerts, I have enjoyed the challenges and the rewards *cough Umbral Forma* but I think there are some issues with it as it is now.

I will start by saying that I'm MR23 and have multiple builds ready to go at any time and I play with my husband so really, none of these is particularly difficult for me personally. However, we both have a group of our friends who recently picked up the game at our urging, and none of them have any hope of getting very far with Nightwave at all. This seems a bit wrong, since it was a system designed to replace alerts and to be accessible to all levels of play. We've tried to taxi them and help them with as many challenges as we can to at least get them some cred and slots for the basic things, but since they don't play nearly as much as us, I doubt they'll get past rank 10 before its over. So what about people who are completely new to everything and have to find out what ESO or forma or Vallis orbs or Kuva is by themselves? There are a lot of challenges that require things to be unlocked first to even do them, so for those that don't, you're missing out on huge amounts of standing and ranks per week. The gild/forma ones are kind of annoying because I don't really want to waste my resources, but they hurt a lot more for people who aren't sitting on massive stockpiles.

This ties in with the next part: wolf cred gain is extremely slow. You only get 50 at 3, 6, 12, 16, 20, and 24 for a total of 300 if you complete it all (more if you prestige). The thing is, people who need the cred to buy things like aura mods, nitain, weapon blueprints for MR, are likely low MR and will not be able to progress all that much to even get the cred to buy items. So yeah, it kind of sucks that the people who actually need the rewards are going to have a very tough time getting them.

It's crap to complain without solutions so: I really like OPs suggestion about challenges based on mastery or around riven challenges.

On 2019-04-09 at 8:36 PM, Malkiur said:

The general idea I'm striving towards here is to give new players easier tasks to complete, but still gain the same amount of points towards Nightwave ranks as players at higher MR. Maybe make Elite challenges unlock at a certain MR, like 8 or 10, and replace them with easier mini tasks before that MR is achieved. Not only that, higher MR players would definitely like a more challenging experience from these 'Elite' tasks. Not something like 2 hours in a survival mission, or 60 waves on defense, please, no. But something more on the lines of the riven challenges, like completing an exterminate mission solo without getting detected. Or 'Kill 750 enemies in a single Survival mission'. Maybe something that adds to preventing leeching or afk during endless missions? Ranks shouldn't all have the same amount of points to achieve, they should start low, and end at an even higher cap than 10k, just enough to compensate for the lower point caps on earlier ranks.

I don't know how game coding works and if this would even be implementable, but the idea of it is really good. If the challenges are at a level that is similar to your game progress, a lot more people are going to be able to complete the ranks and actually get the rewards by the end of it. Most of the existing challenges that are not gated are fine as they are, but I would like to see those ones (Index, Orbs, Kuva fortress, Eidolons) go.

For Wolf Cred, we should be getting it either per rank up, or per challenge completed. Even if its a small amount (25 per rank, 0 for daily challenges, 5 for weeklies, 10 for elite weeklies is my suggestion) it would help a lot for those who really need the aura mods/wep bps/nitain. Of course, the prices of the rewards will need to be adjusted accordingly to account for faster gain, not double, but maybe x1.5. Then this also leaves the option to add in some cosmetic decorations or something for the veterans to dump their big stockpiles on. Or we can buy enough potatoes to make a bed from, whatever.

TLDR:

Issues:

1. Challenges are either very easy (vets) or very hard (new players), there is not much in between
2. Wolf cred earning is very hard, especially for those who it will benefit most

My suggestions:

1. Scaling challenges like those suggested by others to retain the challenge for vets and provide increased accessibility for newer players, or less gated challenges (Index, Orb etc)
2. Increased wolf cred gain- either creds for every rank up, or for completing each challenge, with adjusted prices (not too much) to compensate for the gain

Don't really want to go into the other rewards etc because that's really a 'can't please everyone' scenario, but it would be good to see some of the quality of life fixes when the next time comes around. I really appreciate all of the hard work and creativity that went into this and I'm sure that DE will be making changes in the future, this is the very first round after all.

[Maganar]

I think Nightwave is close to being in a good place and certainly much better than alerts and the old affinity challenges, but it needs some help in a few of the departments you pointed out.  I think scaling challenges might help but this could be difficult to implement.  There is, in my opinion, a quicker way to strike at the throat on the problem of Nightwave ironically proving least friendly to the people it was meant to help most (new players) and that is by reorganizing the reward system.

The Problem:

I am an MR27.  I don't have jack-squat to spend Wolf credits on except stockpiling Catalysts and Reactors (and I didn't mind sinking platinum earned through trading or bought on a discount coupon into those to support the game since the price is only 20p per potato and you get plenty free in normal play).  Contrast me with the currently MR8 player I recently got into Warframe shortly after the implementation of Nightwave.  She has aura mods to acquire, Nitain Extract to stockpile, and helmets to get for fashionframe on her preferred warframes (since those are a decent chunk of platinum to buy, unlike Catalysts and Reactors).  Oh - and those helmets are also going to require Nitain, causing you to be doubly charged.

Worse of all are the MR-fodder alert weapons.  Previously a new player just needed to go "oh hey, there's an alert and I can get some new gear!" and they could do it.  If it took a taxi (something no longer needed thanks to Nightwave which I think is awesome!) to get there, that could be arranged.  They accumulated new gear (and got to increase their MR) simply by spending time in the game, as things SHOULD be.  Now, new players are daunted by a shop that charges exorbitant amounts of Nightwave credits for weapons that are total garbage and one warframe that is in a terrible state and that they will also likely trash.  If they aren't warned, they will waste the credits they would be better off spending on aura mods and Nitain Extract on this junk used only for increasing MR.  If they are warned, then one day down the road they are going to have to steel their will to waste an entire season of credits (once they can diligently farm all challenges) just on increasing their MR and foregoing all the desirable rewards.  This is really bad.

Meanwhile, in the prestige tiers, I am bathing in useless credits that I can... what, buy a rotating Wolf symbol ornament to stick in my orbiter?  Give me a break.  No, I'm using these credits to buy the most valuable aura mods to give, for free, to my friend I got into the game to make it less of an agony getting started with this awkward shop.  I feel guilty just earning them, knowing my friend needs them far more.  But other players won't have a sympathetic friend and will have to resort to trade chat to get the extra ones they can't afford, where some sleazy trader will rip them off 30p for a Corrosive Projection (of which they are probably stockpiling copies with their Prestige tier Wolf credits just like me) just because they've learned they need this to be allowed as a leech in many recruiting squads and that's it's considered one of the best to have.  This isn't right.

The Solution:

I propose that Wolf credits be front-loaded instead of end-loaded (with the Prestige tiers).  DE did right by new players by front-loading the warframe slot and the weapon slots, giving new players who may have not bought platinum the chance to get some extra inventory space (the thing they need most) without having to venture into the dangers of trading (which they have few daily trades for anyway).  But DE needs to realize Nightwave credits are most important for new players, not veterans, just like those slots.  By the time a player is on Nightwave tier 16, they should have earned every possible Nightwave credit that there is to earn.  Toss that Kuva and Forma into the back instead, and get all that junk like Sigils and Emblems into the middle tiers.  It's veterans that are trying for god roll rivens and polarizing their gear, and we can wait until the final tiers for that.

Secondly, I propose that the Nightwave credit economy be SERIOUSLY revisited when it comes to the former alert weapons.  Consider making a single package with ALL (yes, I mean all the former alert weapons) the weapon blueprints that is permanently available instead of the current rotating stock, and pricing it at only 150 Nightwave credits.  Call it a "Starter Weapon Pack" or "Tenno Reinforcement Arsenal" or something like that.  A new player saving up a few rounds of Nightwave credits could then spend it on this to diversify their arsenal immediately and begin ranking up MR at a satisfying rate.  Collecting gear is one of the most fun things in this game.  Give them a taste of the diversity their arsenal can eventually have right away with these discount bundles of the crummy versions of the better weapons they can later craft.  That is the best way to get new players hooked on Warframe instead of scaring them off.

If that package ends up being too big, perhaps it could be split into two, each worth 75-100 credits, maybe (I still think it should cost more than a single Nightwave credit bundle, but cheap enough that both could be acquired with still some left over to buy Nitain).  The specifics don't matter, but give new players some bang for their buck.  And the bang is not coming from stats since these weapons are garbage (let's be real).  The bang is going to come from a diversity of gear they can start tinkering with.  That's where the fun begins with Warframe.

I'm not sure what's the best reward in place of Even More Credits (tm) for Prestige tiers but I think other topics are tackling that and I don't have as many ideas for that as for the stuff I described above.  Just please rearrange (and reprice!) the rewards to be more amenable to new players without providing such a glut to the veterans.  This virtually sets veterans up to extort new players out of platinum in trading, which I can't blame other veterans for doing because it feels like we are getting nothing out of the Prestige rewards as things currently stand, unless we, well, sell the aura mods for platinum to at least get more plat!

Edit:

I glossed over the previous posts in this topic, but something only caught my eye the second time around reading through them.  This.

On 2019-04-18 at 7:27 PM, PitViperK said:

 

--That these achievements give a static set of rewards once unlocked. "(X) Nightwave Currency and Heat Dagger for mastering 5 melee weapons." as an example.

This would be another way to counter the completely broken Nightwave store economy when it comes to former alert weapons.  Have a set of static challenges Nora always gives and/or an achievement system that grants the blueprint (or even item!) for these former alert weapons.  I see a couple ways this could work.  I think the easiest that requires the least changes to current Nightwave systems would be to have one or two weekly challenges in addition to the current ones each week that are "Weapon Challenges."  Instead of providing Nightwave standing as a reward, they would give a former alert item!  Perhaps helmets could be tied into this system too, as I've heard people point out that those are pretty inaccessible to new players now too!  I think this might in fact be an even more elegant way than my proposed economy overhaul, but I'll leave my former suggestion in case DE finds it more palatable (since either would be an improvement as long as one made it in). 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Maganar
New idea

[Malkiur]

On 2019-04-19 at 11:02 PM, Els236 said:

I'm currently mastery rank 22.

I quit the game 2 or 3 years ago when I was mastery rank 18. Only came back recently as I was going to play Anthem and was like, nahh, I'll go back to Warframe.

Even at Mastery Rank 18, I had:

- Not done any of the required quests, as they didn't exist 2-3 years ago

- Didn't have operator for the same reason

- Didn't know about Lua puzzles (or even have Lua on my map)

- Didn't have Index, or even know it existed

- Had 0 reputation with the Ostron or Solaris United as they didn't exist

- Many, many other things

The main issue is that new players are the ones who want Forma bundles and mods and credits and stuff, but they can't complete enough Nightwave "quests" to get them, yet Veteran players can do the "quests" to get these rewards but simply don't need or want them. (Who needs a Forma bundle when you have 50 Forma blueprints?) 

All of the useless junk rewards should have been put at the first few levels of N.W., so that the newbies could get them easily, then the other rewards should have been put nearer the end, so that Vets. have a reason to actually do Nightwave. 

Finally, a small edit. Yes, I can now complete every single Nightwave mission for a given week in less than a day. The only one I have issues with is the current "do 3 waves of Index without enemy putting a point". Everything else is a breeze. You can sometimes do 10 Nightmare missions in a row or you can combine them like you can combine "open x relics" with "complete x sabotage/spy/etc mission type"; Take Ignis Wraith to Sanctuary Onslaught and complete all of the "kill x enemies with y damage type", "kill x enemies", "kill x eximus", "kill x y" in one go in about 8 zones. 

First of all, welcome back! ^^ This is a really valued list that you've written, of problems with Nightwave that you've encountered since you came back to Warframe, and those are exactly the reasons why Nightwave needs to be go back to the DE tinker garage on full throttle before phase 2 hits.

When it comes to the Forma, there are people like myself who like to experiment a lot, and to be completely honest I welcomed the additional support from Nightwave immensely, even though I do indeed have tons of blueprints, I end up spending a hell of a lot of plat on rushing them, as I usually end up needing piles of 'em while tinkering in my Arsenal! This is why your next point is such a great one. Those smaller rewards which in fact are more useful to the new players should be the ones to be rewarded early on into Nightwave, which I would like to also connect to the idea of a more progressive rank system where the lower ranks do not require as much points to rank up, and higher ranks require even more than now. This would be even further augmented if some challenges were locked behind a progression or MR check.

A small tip for the Index challenge, this one is easy, just look or build a medium range and max duration Limbo and put your bubble up on the enemy base. Done!:P

3 hours ago, Caripillar said:

I don't know how game coding works and if this would even be implementable, but the idea of it is really good. If the challenges are at a level that is similar to your game progress, a lot more people are going to be able to complete the ranks and actually get the rewards by the end of it. Most of the existing challenges that are not gated are fine as they are, but I would like to see those ones (Index, Orbs, Kuva fortress, Eidolons) go.

For Wolf Cred, we should be getting it either per rank up, or per challenge completed. Even if its a small amount (25 per rank, 0 for daily challenges, 5 for weeklies, 10 for elite weeklies is my suggestion) it would help a lot for those who really need the aura mods/wep bps/nitain. Of course, the prices of the rewards will need to be adjusted accordingly to account for faster gain, not double, but maybe x1.5. Then this also leaves the option to add in some cosmetic decorations or something for the veterans to dump their big stockpiles on. Or we can buy enough potatoes to make a bed from, whatever.

Issues:

1. Challenges are either very easy (vets) or very hard (new players), there is not much in between
2. Wolf cred earning is very hard, especially for those who it will benefit most

My suggestions:

1. Scaling challenges like those suggested by others to retain the challenge for vets and provide increased accessibility for newer players, or less gated challenges (Index, Orb etc)
2. Increased wolf cred gain- either creds for every rank up, or for completing each challenge, with adjusted prices (not too much) to compensate for the gain

I used to study Software Dev, and while I was completely crap at it, anyone with at least slight experience would tell you that with the systems DE has in place, this wouldn't be as hard as it would be time consuming for them. I am fairly certain setting up such a progression system based on progress and MR is tedious to create, and going through all the possible stages to a player's Warframe journey would certainly end up taking a hell of a lot of time, even for a team such as DE. This is why, generally, this system would most likely end up slightly streamlined, but still be a very useful and welcome addition. A trigger such as completing the 'The War Within' before the 60 min Kuva survival challenge find its way to your Nightwave is a good example of how this would end up working.

I LOVE this idea of Wolf Creds that you've written up. I found that whenever I received Wolf Creds, especially towards the end of the first 30 ranks, they felt more like empty rewards. Of course, at the beginning I thought "Aha! Finally, I can become a Nitain junkie without needing to check my Alert list every 4 hours!", but then, there is nothing else really worth spending the credits on. Some helmets? Sure, from time to time. Vauban set? I already got that ages ago. That new Wolf decoration? Sure, but then what? Potatoes? They cost 75! For the limited amount of ways that you can acquire potatoes, this sure is a high value especially considering you only get 300 creds for the first 30 ranks in total, AND this is pretty much the only 'always present' way of buying those without spending plat. There are also the weapons, but as soon as you get them all and master, there is no point in getting them again. Wolf Creds should be a constant reward, and gaining them for completing challenges and ranking up is such a good solution, but the prices should be adjusted as you pointed out, not only because of how much creds you would earn with this system, but also considering the values compared to how often or not something is demanded.

Thanks for the suggestions and the posts! It is good to see I am not the only one wanting to speak out about this.

[Malkiur]

2 hours ago, Maganar said:

I propose that Wolf credits be front-loaded instead of end-loaded (with the Prestige tiers).  DE did right by new players by front-loading the warframe slot and the weapon slots, giving new players who may have not bought platinum the chance to get some extra inventory space (the thing they need most) without having to venture into the dangers of trading (which they have few daily trades for anyway).  But DE needs to realize Nightwave credits are most important for new players, not veterans, just like those slots.  By the time a player is on Nightwave tier 16, they should have earned every possible Nightwave credit that there is to earn.  Toss that Kuva and Forma into the back instead, and get all that junk like Sigils and Emblems into the middle tiers.  It's veterans that are trying for god roll rivens and polarizing their gear, and we can wait until the final tiers for that.

Secondly, I propose that the Nightwave credit economy be SERIOUSLY revisited when it comes to the former alert weapons.  Consider making a single package with ALL (yes, I mean all the former alert weapons) the weapon blueprints that is permanently available instead of the current rotating stock, and pricing it at only 150 Nightwave credits.  Call it a "Starter Weapon Pack" or "Tenno Reinforcement Arsenal" or something like that.  A new player saving up a few rounds of Nightwave credits could then spend it on this to diversify their arsenal immediately and begin ranking up MR at a satisfying rate.  Collecting gear is one of the most fun things in this game.  Give them a taste of the diversity their arsenal can eventually have right away with these discount bundles of the crummy versions of the better weapons they can later craft.  That is the best way to get new players hooked on Warframe instead of scaring them off.

I'm not sure what's the best reward in place of Even More Credits (tm) for Prestige tiers but I think other topics are tackling that and I don't have as many ideas for that as for the stuff I described above.  Just please rearrange (and reprice!) the rewards to be more amenable to new players without providing such a glut to the veterans.  This virtually sets veterans up to extort new players out of platinum in trading, which I can't blame other veterans for doing because it feels like we are getting nothing out of the Prestige rewards as things currently stand, unless we, well, sell the aura mods for platinum to at least get more plat!

Sorry for going two posts in a row but the posts here are so great and detailed I needed to:D

First of, I want to say that I agree on one general idea - Nightwave is a massive improvement over the standard alert system, I have never been so engaged with alerts before as I am now. But it has its own massive problems as we all know. One more thing that I think would improve Nightwave in general, and especially the shop, is the amount and diversity of rewards that you can buy from the wolf cred shop. It NEEDS to have more and better rewards. This is why I also completely agree with the achievement idea suggested earlier in the thread, where some of the rewards that are more suited as rewards than shop items (Such as the weapons, Vauban parts or some cosmetics) should be instead rewarded as a separate set of challenges. This would be a great addition.

Personally, I have to say that the idea posted by @Caripillar for wolf creds to be rewarded for a rank up/challenge completion is the best solution for credits I've heard about yet. It would engage any player just a bit more, and to complete as many challenges as possible, despite their MR. Maybe the alert weapons should replace the ranks wolf creds were usually rewarded at instead?

The economy I do agree with, as I also mentioned in my previous post. The prices really need to be adjusted. To be completely honest, when Nightwave started I was still at a place where I needed most of the auras, helmets and some weapons from the alerts, which I ended up spending my wolf creds on. Now? I have already bought them all, and now that I think about it, the 15 wolf credit reward per prestige rank is not much of a motivation to do any of the Nightwave challenges anymore. Although, it is a great idea to support fellow, new tenno!

[Maganar]

10 hours ago, Malkiur said:

One more thing that I think would improve Nightwave in general, and especially the shop, is the amount and diversity of rewards that you can buy from the wolf cred shop. It NEEDS to have more and better rewards. This is why I also completely agree with the achievement idea suggested earlier in the thread, where some of the rewards that are more suited as rewards than shop items (Such as the weapons, Vauban parts or some cosmetics) should be instead rewarded as a separate set of challenges. This would be a great addition.

After a night to sleep on it, I'm feeling the same thing here.  I'm still liking the idea of weapons as costing no credits, but coming from some other source (challenges that reward the weapons instead of event standing, achievements, or even the lower nightwave reward ranks).  Adding Wolf credits to EVERY rank as you also bring up based on Caripilar might also help fix the problems of new players having to reach very high thresholds just to finally get the big drop to spend on a few auras they need.

But you also bring up more shop reward diversity and I'm becoming a growing fan of this.  Let's assume all the fixes we have suggested are made.  They will finally fix things for new players, but veterans will still be left with our Nighwave credit glut, and now we don't even have a need to donate to new players because their progression has been fixed.  To truly incentivize us veterans, we need a wide diversity of reward options from the Nightwave shop.  That way, no matter what it is we find valuable personally (Kuva for riven traders, Endo/sculptures for diehard 10-rank mod completionists, boosters and Forma for people who love polarizing, etc.), we can get something that we find worth our time.  I want that for us veterans, too, but I want the new players to remain priority (and thus let's work on fixing the economy and giving alert weapons for free on challenge completions or rank-ups instead) since this system was for them anyway.  But when that's done?  Yeah, I'd appreciate more reward diversity for sure.

[Caripillar]

I'm glad that you guys are liking the idea about Wolf Cred, hopefully DE has a look in here and feels the same. I feel @Maganar also had another very good suggestion with this:

23 hours ago, Maganar said:

I propose that Wolf credits be front-loaded instead of end-loaded (with the Prestige tiers).  DE did right by new players by front-loading the warframe slot and the weapon slots, giving new players who may have not bought platinum the chance to get some extra inventory space (the thing they need most) without having to venture into the dangers of trading (which they have few daily trades for anyway).  But DE needs to realize Nightwave credits are most important for new players, not veterans, just like those slots.  By the time a player is on Nightwave tier 16, they should have earned every possible Nightwave credit that there is to earn.  Toss that Kuva and Forma into the back instead, and get all that junk like Sigils and Emblems into the middle tiers.  It's veterans that are trying for god roll rivens and polarizing their gear, and we can wait until the final tiers for that.

Judging from your post, we both have friends who we're trying to dump our spare mods and rush along the first ranks so they can access the inventory slots, so I feel you on this. I'm really glad these quality of life things are early on and quite easily attainable, and I would like to see all of the stuff that new players really need in that same area.

23 hours ago, Maganar said:

Secondly, I propose that the Nightwave credit economy be SERIOUSLY revisited when it comes to the former alert weapons.  Consider making a single package with ALL (yes, I mean all the former alert weapons) the weapon blueprints that is permanently available instead of the current rotating stock, and pricing it at only 150 Nightwave credits.  Call it a "Starter Weapon Pack" or "Tenno Reinforcement Arsenal" or something like that.  A new player saving up a few rounds of Nightwave credits could then spend it on this to diversify their arsenal immediately and begin ranking up MR at a satisfying rate.  Collecting gear is one of the most fun things in this game.  Give them a taste of the diversity their arsenal can eventually have right away with these discount bundles of the crummy versions of the better weapons they can later craft.  That is the best way to get new players hooked on Warframe instead of scaring them off.

 

If that package ends up being too big, perhaps it could be split into two, each worth 75-100 credits, maybe (I still think it should cost more than a single Nightwave credit bundle, but cheap enough that both could be acquired with still some left over to buy Nitain).  The specifics don't matter, but give new players some bang for their buck.  And the bang is not coming from stats since these weapons are garbage (let's be real).  The bang is going to come from a diversity of gear they can start tinkering with.  That's where the fun begins with Warframe.

This part here too, because I'm playing with some stat stick rivens for my Khora just for a change of pace and even I balked at the cost of the heat sword. 50 wolf cred is almost a potato or like 2.5 aura mods that I can give away, or 15 nitain. It's a LOT, especially for weapons that the older players took for granted. You really hit the nail on the head with that last part because every single one of our friends has said that they enjoy trying out new things and exploring their options the most in the game right now.

21 hours ago, Malkiur said:

I used to study Software Dev, and while I was completely crap at it, anyone with at least slight experience would tell you that with the systems DE has in place, this wouldn't be as hard as it would be time consuming for them. I am fairly certain setting up such a progression system based on progress and MR is tedious to create, and going through all the possible stages to a player's Warframe journey would certainly end up taking a hell of a lot of time, even for a team such as DE. This is why, generally, this system would most likely end up slightly streamlined, but still be a very useful and welcome addition. A trigger such as completing the 'The War Within' before the 60 min Kuva survival challenge find its way to your Nightwave is a good example of how this would end up working.

Yeah, I figured that it would be something that's fairly difficult to implement smoothly, but it would be good to see in there. Having just boosted our friends through that damn Kuva survival challenge today, that's something that I can definitely get behind. Possibly another alternative option to it could be to make the weekly challenges baseline achievable by anyone new and low MR, so like the kill X enemies/eximus, mission types, nightmares etc, and have the difficult and gated ones (60 min survival, Orbs, Gilding) as a bonus each week for a fat amount of standing. As long you are able to complete the event without completing any of the bonus, I feel like this would serve to solve the issues of 1. Accessibility 2. Fear of missing out if you don't complete a week here and there, and 3. Veterans who want a challenge. This way, completion of the full reward cycle is open to everybody but those who want to bumrush it get the prestige pittance are free to do so