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When are we getting any info about Melee revisit Phase 2?


HyokaChan
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It's already been a while and very little has been talked about regarding the current state of the system or any future changes to the system, such as what is coming next, if anything. 

 

As it is now, melee content as a whole has just stagnated due to being in the transitional phase; you can't make new stances because you're going to overhaul all of that, no new categories and a lot less incentive to fix any bugs with stances because, like said before, it's all about to go away anyway.

 

So, when are we getting the next workshop post on what's happening?

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Agreed. I might like the new system - autoblock aside - but I'd very much like to see the actual stances and such for a melee that is actually designed for the fast-paced, fluid Warframe of today, not the pre-movement 2.0 Warframe Melee 2.0 was designed for. 

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Agreed. I might like the new system - autoblock aside - but I'd very much like to see the actual stances and such for a melee that is actually designed for the fast-paced, fluid Warframe of today, not the pre-movement 2.0 Warframe Melee 2.0 was designed for. 

Nah, autoblock needs to go, equip melee keybind make its return (2000% holster speed is not worth not being able to use melee/stuck with quick melee+ which sends you back to your guns on any uneven surface for any stance that uses block combo). As far as stances go, its mostly just the inability to pick what keybind goes for what stance (or removal of pause and change for a "forward/backward/left/right/block hold" system unless EVERY combo gets its own unique charge or pause alteration MGRR Sam/DMC style - as in pause and charge arent part of combos as much as finishers for the combo that reset).

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I never like how combos are seperated in this game. Put in volt superspeed then it becomes a mess. Get hit by Nox a few times then watch as your warframe becomes a bullet magnet while attacking in slow motion. Not to mention being locked in the attack animation, recovery animation with no way to cancel any of it. What I'm surprise about is how long melee 2.0 lasted. Only now do people complain how terrible it is not the years it's been around.

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3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Nah, autoblock needs to go

Hence why they said autoblock aside, implying that autoblock is the one feature they don't like about the new melee mechanics. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

I never like how combos are seperated in this game. Put in volt superspeed then it becomes a mess. Get hit by Nox a few times then watch as your warframe becomes a bullet magnet while attacking in slow motion. Not to mention being locked in the attack animation, recovery animation with no way to cancel any of it. What I'm surprise about is how long melee 2.0 lasted. Only now do people complain how terrible it is not the years it's been around.

I'm in complete agreement about this. Of all the problems with the current system, the majority of them existed in melee 2.0. They just have more visibility/prominence now, thanks to it being more in the spotlight, as well as not having quick melee to circumvent the stances that really suck. 

Like aside from autoblock and aim glide, there aren't really any problems that were actually introduced by the changes to melee. 

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il y a une heure, (PS4)jaggerwanderer a dit :

I never like how combos are seperated in this game. Put in volt superspeed then it becomes a mess. Get hit by Nox a few times then watch as your warframe becomes a bullet magnet while attacking in slow motion. Not to mention being locked in the attack animation, recovery animation with no way to cancel any of it. What I'm surprise about is how long melee 2.0 lasted. Only now do people complain how terrible it is not the years it's been around.

Most people are only spamming some spin-2-win anyway, and if melee 3.0 doesn't fix that it would be a huge waste of time. Spin-2-win always has been more an exploit than actual gameplay. Spin attacks are definitely part of melee combos but shouldn't be spammed all day long, making you rushing faster than a rabbit on drugs.

You're right about combos, the more attack speed you get the clunkier they become but if i ain't wrong they're going to implement more intuitive combos next time, wait and see then. I just hope they'll get rid of pause and press & hold combos though.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

I never like how combos are seperated in this game. Put in volt superspeed then it becomes a mess. Get hit by Nox a few times then watch as your warframe becomes a bullet magnet while attacking in slow motion. Not to mention being locked in the attack animation, recovery animation with no way to cancel any of it. What I'm surprise about is how long melee 2.0 lasted. Only now do people complain how terrible it is not the years it's been around.

Most animation locking isnt the issue on attacks, issue is only on the stances that dont have the multipliers to back it up and stances which dont have a functional to spam at high attack speed combo that doesnt lock.

Real issue is how big of a difference "keep holding to repeat" vs "try to time a pause or charge with a 2 input que that doesnt record modifiers for next timing" combos.
AKA if charge/heavy attacks were:

  - move buff/overcharge of the one move thats charged insteas of a mid combo enabler modifier

And pause attacks used to quickly end and/or shift between combos DMC (dante) style with a alt/different attack for the smoother transition.

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7 часов назад, Loza03 сказал:

Agreed. I might like the new system - autoblock aside - but I'd very much like to see the actual stances and such for a melee that is actually designed for the fast-paced, fluid Warframe of today, not the pre-movement 2.0 Warframe Melee 2.0 was designed for. 

+ reworks for melee warframes

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6 hours ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

What I'm surprise about is how long melee 2.0 lasted. Only now do people complain how terrible it is not the years it's been around.

I never really complained that much about it (though I did lament the loss of charge attacks for most weapons, and later on the forced pre-swing before charging redeemers or glaives), but that's because I was able to completely avoid it. It lasted because we were able to completely ignore it and as such it had zero effect on the gameplay unless we explicitly wanted it to do so.

5 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Most people are only spamming some spin-2-win anyway, and if melee 3.0 doesn't fix that it would be a huge waste of time. Spin-2-win always has been more an exploit than actual gameplay. Spin attacks are definitely part of melee combos but shouldn't be spammed all day long, making you rushing faster than a rabbit on drugs.

You're right about combos, the more attack speed you get the clunkier they become but if i ain't wrong they're going to implement more intuitive combos next time, wait and see then. I just hope they'll get rid of pause and press & hold combos though.

I've never used as many spin attacks before as I find myself using now. Not even at that point where this shiny new Maiming Strike thing first came out and everyone wanted to try it (incidentally, how is it an "exploit" if you're using a mod which explicitly states that it gives you that huge buff?). Nope, spin attacks are now the only form of melee that doesn't actively interfere with my gameplay and slap the controls out of my hands.

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7 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Not even at that point where this shiny new Maiming Strike thing first came out and everyone wanted to try it (incidentally, how is it an "exploit" if you're using a mod which explicitly states that it gives you that huge buff?). Nope, spin attacks are now the only form of melee that doesn't actively interfere with my gameplay and slap the controls out of my hands.

A lot of people still have the erroneous assumption meme strike slide attacks did more damage than average-to-good stances (high on guaranteed slash, good sweeping attacks that dont lock/only lock with very high multipliers or at least have non weapon damage weighted type procs) on at average (over 70 damage, at least 20% crit 2x multi and 15% status) melee when in reality good stance+CO did at least the same (if not far more) with same ramp time.

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21 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

A lot of people still have the erroneous assumption meme strike slide attacks did more damage than average-to-good stances (high on guaranteed slash, good sweeping attacks that dont lock/only lock with very high multipliers or at least have non weapon damage weighted type procs) on at average (over 70 damage, at least 20% crit 2x multi and 15% status) melee when in reality good stance+CO did at least the same (if not far more) with same ramp time.

Oh, I know. I never cared much for slide attacks except as an opening move. The problem there is that "good stance" was quick melee. That's gone now. I no longer have any kind of decent mobility while striking. Spin attacks are now the only form of melee that doesn't slap the controls out of my hand.

That's the problem. Stance melee pretty much universally sucks. I went to very great lengths to avoid using it.

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4 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

 The problem there is that "good stance" was quick melee.

That's the problem. Stance melee pretty much universally sucks. I went to very great lengths to avoid using it.

Thats mostly a polearm issue tho (since the first 2 attacks of shimmering blight are so good when the rest is meh).

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I think also the developers are a bit confused about what to do with the melee system ... in the last devstream they marked melee 2.0 as done with a green mark, and then at some point they were like  "wait huhh ... duhh ... maybe change it to yellow".

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On ‎13‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 12:13 AM, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

 What I'm surprise about is how long melee 2.0 lasted. Only now do people complain how terrible it is not the years it's been around.

What you are seeing is not sincere complaining about faults in melee 2.0 but DE's PR force of white knights, facebook friends, family, etc. out in full force touting whatever they do.

If they took melee out of the game entirely, there'd be hosts of "well I never understood why WF had melee in the first place" kinds of stuff from these "sincere" folks in support of DE.

The melee "rework" was a kneejerk reaction to melee being "too good" in the very poorly and lazily designed survival reskin that is Sanctuary Onslaught. When that nonimmersive game mode came out, (...) were flooding ignorant complaints about "spin2win" and continue doing so even though spin2win has not been the true upper level melee meta for some time. The reality is that SO is just plain bad, a bandaid instead of meaningful higher level play. DE learned its lesson and the Arbitrations are much better, well-designed upper level endless content.

But they made the mistake of kneejerk announcing "Melee 3.0" TENTATIVELY and many moons ago, and (...) took that very obvious spitballing as gospel writ in stone as dumb gaming fanbois tend to do. For months and months, these (...) would reference "Melee 3.0" as some kind of done deal and keep making thread after thread about it. Well truth is there WAS NO MELEE 3.0 and there will be no melee 3.0, at least not the drastic changes to combo counter spitballed in response to Spin2Win whining. They could do something to channeling, but my smart money is on no at this point.

In all likelihood, the "rest" of the melee changes will be a weapon and riven disposition rebalance, and that's it... as I've said all along. Other than the mountains of SO whining about OP melee in a bad game mode, there was never any reason for a complete melee overhaul. Melee was, and is, pretty much fine in WF, one of the game's better features actually.

Edited by Buttaface
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13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Thats mostly a polearm issue tho (since the first 2 attacks of shimmering blight are so good when the rest is meh).

Staves as well. I tried to level up my new tipedo prime through combat, but gave up immediately because I kept getting thrown forwards way past my target. Stanceless staves let me move freely, but have these incredibly annoying pauses in the attack pattern.

I've just tested every weapon type. Stanceless single swords (good old dakra prime), nikanas (decisive judgment almost had it, but the existence of the pause combo will get me killed at some point), sword & shield (ditto for eleventh storm), rapiers (vulpine mask is actually fine here), nunchucks (pause combo again with the stance, without doesn't interfere) are the only weapon types which let me move freely while swinging and have a smooth attack pattern. Every single other weapon category either slowed me down, stopped me dead or launched me off in some random direction on at least one of the attacks.

The only weapon that moves me around which is even remotely bearable are dual daggers with gnashing payara, and that's only because the movement is smooth and consistenly forwards, and because each swing is relatively short and can be easily interrupted.

The problem here is that all of these weapons have terrible range, and very few have decent status and damage balance (I much prefer status over crit, and slash over other damage types).

A dishonourable mention goes to the Sarpa, which is utterly uncontrollable. It's like being on the Venus plains at maximum alert, except that you don't even need enemies to pinball you around here.

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Agreed, I expected Melee 3.0 to be a bit more of a priority, considering how we're still in a transitional state, and have been feeling some of that pain for quite some time now. Even if the delay's purely coming from DE reworking all of our current stances, I'd rather they released the updated versions in batches, rather than all of them in one fell swoop. Currently, we've all become aware of how bad certain stances feel to use, except now we can no longer avoid using them via quick-melee, which seems to be putting some players off of melee entirely for the time being.

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3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Agreed, I expected Melee 3.0 to be a bit more of a priority,

All I can say is that I agree with this right here. I hope that it's radio silent because they're frantically fixing the can of worms the smashed open with a hammer by half-implementing melee 2.9986820. But even a heads-up from one of their communications people like, "Here's what's currently being revised: Polearm Stances, fixes for Exalted Weapons, and blah blah blah" would be really nice to hear. 

I don't hate the new system, but where it stands now is not better than the old one. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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4 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Staves as well. I tried to level up my new tipedo prime through combat, but gave up immediately because I kept getting thrown forwards way past my target. Stanceless staves let me move freely, but have these incredibly annoying pauses in the attack pattern.

This is where the forward combo comes into play as opposed to the simple EEE combo on Clashing Forest. The former will not throw you forward like the EEE combo. Both are useful, and once you get accustomed to them, staves are a very fun and powerful type of melee compared to the more popular whips, polearms, nikanas, hammers, etc.

After they borked the mobility and fluidity of certain stances, I've been a staff player mostly til they fix... IF they ever fix. With the horrendous ragdolling of Twirling Spire, Crushing Ruin, Tempo, other slam stances currently, they simply aren't playable in higher level stuff, so staves it is for the time being.

Before, you could have a choice of slam effects with hammers for instance. Some hammers had the traditional KD/KB, while Volnus had a soft KD and Arca Titron had a very satisfying "shock in place" slam. No longer, all are the same obnoxious overly done ragdoll slam effect.

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23 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

This is where the forward combo comes into play as opposed to the simple EEE combo on Clashing Forest. The former will not throw you forward like the EEE combo. Both are useful, and once you get accustomed to them, staves are a very fun and powerful type of melee compared to the more popular whips, polearms, nikanas, hammers, etc.

After they borked the mobility and fluidity of certain stances, I've been a staff player mostly til they fix... IF they ever fix. With the horrendous ragdolling of Twirling Spire, Crushing Ruin, Tempo, other slam stances currently, they simply aren't playable in higher level stuff, so staves it is for the time being.

Before, you could have a choice of slam effects with hammers for instance. Some hammers had the traditional KD/KB, while Volnus had a soft KD and Arca Titron had a very satisfying "shock in place" slam. No longer, all are the same obnoxious overly done ragdoll slam effect.

That only works if I'm moving forwards. A fair bit of the time, I'm moving sideways or backwards to position myself around and between the enemies.

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9 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Staves as well. I tried to level up my new tipedo prime through combat, but gave up immediately because I kept getting thrown forwards way past my target. Stanceless staves let me move freely, but have these incredibly annoying pauses in the attack pattern.

Clashing forests base combo is completely smooth (and is done by holding block while walking forward) and forward combo is perfect for heavy/eximus enemies surviving.

9 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

I've just tested every weapon type. ...are the only weapon types which let me move freely while swinging and have a smooth attack pattern. Every single other weapon category either slowed me down, stopped me dead or launched me off in some random direction on at least one of the attacks

Thats why you use different combos as the need arises. Again vast majority of weapons (iirc its just polearms, whips *HAHA* and scythes that have the issue of universally not having a single stance combo that doesnt lower movement speed or animation lock at one part of the attack chain, for polearms it not even being a issue because twirling spire is so strong and just requires pf+zerk to be not too intrusive to be unusuable).

Far bigger issue is the lacking ability for players to choose which keybinds are used for what combo.

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15 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Clashing forests base combo is completely smooth (and is done by holding block while walking forward) and forward combo is perfect for heavy/eximus enemies surviving.

Far bigger issue is the lacking ability for players to choose which keybinds are used for what combo.

The latter part is a huge component of the problem. I'm not going to be holding block (aka. the "change back to gun" key) and walking forward when I'm attacking, I'm going to be dodging around the enemy. Sometimes forwards, sometimes sideways, sometimes not moving at all. Also, I will sometimes slow down the attacks if my enemy gets out of reach, thus running the risk of triggering a pause combo.

I never wanted to do combos in the first place. I never wanted my sword forcing the gun out of my hand so that it can ruin syndicate procs, alt-fire and automatic reloading of empty magazines. I never wanted automatic blocking and its breaking of gunblades/glaives or aerial movement.

I never wanted any of this, to put it bluntly. The only good part of this whole thing is being able to aim slam attacks. That's it. That's not worth the enormous loss of functionality which the rest of this blatantly unfinished and unsuited for release mess has forced upon us.

Oh, and I tried twirling spire back with the mass testing. Not only do I hate its attack hitboxes, it still does slow me down. Berserker is not an option for me because a) my favourites, the Lesion and Tonbo, basically don't crit, and b) I already don't have enough slots on there as it is.

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21 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

The latter part is a huge component of the problem. I'm not going to be holding block (aka. the "change back to gun" key) and walking forward when I'm attacking, I'm going to be dodging around the enemy. Sometimes forwards, sometimes sideways, sometimes not moving at all. Also, I will sometimes slow down the attacks if my enemy gets out of reach, thus running the risk of triggering a pause combo.

I never wanted to do combos in the first place. I never wanted my sword forcing the gun out of my hand so that it can ruin syndicate procs, alt-fire and automatic reloading of empty magazines. I never wanted automatic blocking and its breaking of gunblades/glaives or aerial movement.

I never wanted any of this, to put it bluntly. The only good part of this whole thing is being able to aim slam attacks. That's it. That's not worth the enormous loss of functionality which the rest of this blatantly unfinished and unsuited for release mess has forced upon us.

Oh, and I tried twirling spire back with the mass testing. Not only do I hate its attack hitboxes, it still does slow me down. Berserker is not an option for me because a) my favourites, the Lesion and Tonbo, basically don't crit, and b) I already don't have enough slots on there as it is.

1.) I too want equip melee back, but you are only noting stance stuff which arent much of a issue (at least for moveset, damage, proc count and lower than base range on some attacks of certain stances ofc are a stance issue).
2.) If you are playing melee at all now, do as all melee players are forced to and go gunless (now that melee isnt bugged out by every interaction with anything and every gear anymore) AND if you arent moving forward, then the smooth combo plays default on clashing, with anything between 1.3 to 1.8 attack speed never defaulting to pause unless you actually pause/stop tapping the button.

3.) PF and Gvice, ESPECIALLY since tonbo and lesion arent among the sub 1 as polearms make it solid for its multipliers.

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