AOE RUINING ALL THE GAME

[EinheriarJudith]

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I take it you play Path of Exile as well? That's what got me started on the "nerf all the minmax speed meta" mindset. As players grow stronger and more efficient at trivializing the game, the developers have to come up with ways to make the game more challenging to keep them interested. The easy way out for developers is to introduce tougher enemies and bosses, with far greater health, immunities to abilities and mechanics, and strong enough to 1shot the players with next to no telegraphing. Path of Exile has all of these, Warframe's starting to show signs of it with things like nullifiers, combas and scrambuses, shield dargyns, terra shield ospreys in Orb Vallis, and the absolute cluster#*!% that is the Profit-Taker Orb fight.

The downside to all of this, for both games, is that this raises the skill floor and makes subpar builds and playstyles less and less viable for endgame. Not everyone is a meta cheese mechanic abuser, we shouldn't be screwing over the lesser skilled or equipped players because they want to run bad builds they enjoy.

We need nerfs. We need to lower the skill ceiling instead of raising the skill floor, and doing so will encourage players to actually run more builds and playstyles they like rather than always gunning for the most efficient one that'll finish missions in as little time as possible.

this is the very thing i absolute loath about path of exile and have stopped playing it after reaching lvl 86.

agree with everything written here.

[KaijuKraid]

22 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Right. Incentives. You just seemed to be claiming they were the reason for ESO's existence, which is different - hence the phrase I used, "cart before the horse".

OH, no I was merely saying that 'Endgame' needs incentives. ESO's incentive at the moment is Focus and that's it. A better analogy here though would be that the endgame is a donkey and the Incentive is the Carrot on the Stick. You need that donkey to transport you, but you need a reason for that donkey to start plodding along. (Sidenote: Personally, if I were to fix SO/ESO and keep it for Focus/Affinity, I'd make it so that SO now has the Radiant Relics + Khora and ESO has the Lato/Braton/Fire Steps + a majority of the rewards being some kind of Eidolon Shards. You still get Focus, but now you get more focus on top of that focus. Something for people to do while it's Daytime.. oh and make it ABCCCCC and fix Efficiency so you can at least perhaps get to wave 12.) 

While the creation of ESO WAS to facilitate Endgame, the rewards at the time also needed to suit and match. Thus bringing back Braton/Lato Vandals as well as those Peculiar Mods, which really no one seemed to want. I still think Arbitrations does this very well with Endo/Sculptures and some decent Mods as well as a token system to buy more stuff that can be added to that store later on. The complaint from many 'Endgamers' before and after ESO was that there's no real reward for longer than C rotation aside from the 'feel good' factor of being able to do such a challenge.

31 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

But...using Saryn together with those weapons would very likely be the best possible combination for that. She can add Viral, enhance the toxin by a *lot*, and add spores to help deal with robotic enemies. Hydroid and Equinox can do alright, too, for bypassing shields and all, but still.

Agreed. However it's also pretty insane watching Corpus die from anything with just a Gas Ignis Wraith, a weapon that Saryn indeed carries alot with her but also carried by many people still. Shields generally tend to die super quickly outside of Shield Enhancement anyways, so generally it's usually a non-issue. 

35 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Good luck completing a high-level excavation with just a Frost or Gara, especially with Corpus around! Certainly, Limbo is effective at Mobile Defense, but similarly doesn't work too well against Corpus - and really, why focus on freezing enemies if you can just kill them all before they become troublesome instead? Saryn's AOE range is much higher than even Limbo can push out as well. No mission is difficult when the enemies are all dead, y'know? (Granted that Corpus bubbles do stop spores and nuking, too.) And defence is just slow as a mission mode, killing enemies faster doesn't necessarily mean much when it's mostly limited by spawn rate timers - I really do wish DE would reduce the waves to 3 instead of 5 as baseline....

Actually, I seen Garas solo Excavation Arbitrations up to at least wave 20! Only at this point I decide "You know what, I can't solo these anymore without threat of dying/Excavator dying, so I'm going to hug my new best friend." Gara and Khora alone can definitely handle 30+ before both die from supreme boredom or a Corpus man getting a lucky hit on anything that's not Inaros (I think Inaros might even die to that. Not sure yet.) Definitely seen 30ish on Interception with No Saryn either because enemies are more of a nuisence then an actual threat in those missions. These are also pub games, so I do wonder how non-pub can work.

Talking Corpus here also. Corpus enemies need a nerf at high levels I swear to god because I feel they can get past damage reduction thanks to their insane Puncture damage. (50% Armour Ignore + 50% Bonus Damage.) But this really shows where DE want to balance their enemies. Grineer can become insane bullet sponges and Corpus can one shot you because these aren't the levels that DE are wanting to choosing to balance the game at.  Plus Corpus Bubbles + Drones make it much much harder to start spreading spores everywhere. (Ever seen 1+ Arbitration Drone protect 2+ Energy Leeches and 3 Nullifers, all ontop of each other with one of those Nullifers being a Ice one? NOT FUN.) 

Arbitrations (and previous actions) shows that DE want to balance their game mostly around Star Chart. If Saryn gets nerfed because of Starchart, then ESO, Sortie Defence and perhaps Arbitration Defence probably need fixes also. I can agree with this.

50 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Yeah, with Ember it's really bizarre - their reasoning was wanting to avoid "afk affinity farming" or whatever? Yet look at all these other powerful AOE Warframes...it's such an odd inconsistency. The way you describe her old kit makes her sound quite useful though, despite (as you mention) her damage type being one of the least useful.

Well, 'Useful' might be the wrong statement in some regards. This was before Augments and even before the Void became a thing and this was years ago at this point, but I remember going into defence missions (The Corpus one that's inside the ship) and just basically going into groups of Infested and never dying to them. I remember we were supposed to have a max of 97% damage reduction, but I also recall never dying to them + Never taking any damage (though this was many years ago now, so I could be wrong. I do remember though thinking it's weird taking 0 damage.) The problem is, the enemies would also take a long time to kill also after getting to high waves. I basically just existed at that point to distract enemies while my DoTs and my melee weapon would take care of them. Melee was no where near as good as it was in those days either. 

Plus later on: Nova and Valkyr would be released while Overheat still existed. Wanted to do what I did with Ember? Just play Valkyr instead at that point. Nova was also considered the frame to play for super high damage glass cannon gameplay. Giving Ember more damage was a good idea, but ultimately it came at the cost of losing most of her defence. She didn't even get armour increases until much later after they removed overheat (from 15 Armour to 100 + more in Prime) and her augments are trying to make her into a more supportive role with extra casting speed/knock downs while trying to make her increase damage by Fire and increase more damage by Fire. 

This is why I wish people are careful about Saryn nerfs. The whole argument about Ember is EXACTLY why people need to be careful. "Ember was nerfed because of X, so why isn't Saryn." can EASILY be followed up by "Look at how they overdid Ember nerfs." (Sidenote: I get people actually telling me Ember is fine because they can do X. Just because I can bring Ember to Sorties solo or that I can do long survival runs with Ember doesn't mean she's "fine.") 

It's easy to look at kills/damage done and think that's the only thing important, which in Exterminates, Defences and ESO, it is. None of the other game modes care about those figures. All but one Arbitration definitely doesn't care about those numbers either and I would consider Arbitration a better and more 'proper' version of an Endgame than ESO. Though, as I mentioned before, ESO definitely needs a lot of fixes. 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

2 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

Though, as I mentioned before, ESO definitely needs a lot of fixes. 

ESO doesn't need fixes - it needs to be removed from the game. Replacing it with something mildly entertaining or at least not mind numbingly boring (including rewarding "rewards" an added bonus) would be optional.

 

[(PSN)Siramezz]

"the press button to win should not be ever exist", blackfox, you're implying that not only the aoe frames shouldnt have these, you're also saying other frames like loki with his invisibility, rhino with his roar buff, etc, shouldnt exist, please think about it carefully before you give false information.

[Toppien]

the recent saryn rework was a mistake, she was fine before

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2019-04-16 at 9:38 AM, TheGreenFellow said:

Efficiency-seeking is a natural expectation of any video gamer. Where I think you are mistaken is that "enemy scaling has demanded a player power increase" - it's the other way around. DE has designed enemies around the player power increases, which is primarily thanks to the modding. If we didn't have those mods, I guarantee enemy scaling would not be so crazy.

It is absolutely true, though, that DE has to address both at the same time - really, everything in the domino chain of armor scaling, damage types, status types, and enemy design as you mention - all of that would need to be part of the overhaul. It'd be a big project, there's no denying that, but I think it is absolutely necessary for the long-term health of the game.

I'd also somewhat agree that Warframe balance is not as big of an issue, but the baseline numbers of Warframes/guns are what get magnified exponentially by mods, so any existing imbalances in guns & Warframes are indeed a causal factor. You are correct again, though, that just nerfing Warframes would not be successful.

 

 

I'll have to partially disagree.  Enemy scaling was a problem back in the void days when only a few frames had the ability to room wipe.  (Saryn being the main one.)  Granted I didn't get into Warframe till a few months before abilities were no longer cards you had to equip.  So prior to that the enemies could have been reasonable.  I don't know.  I do agree that at some point DE did start adding enemies in specifically to counter act our power.  But i'm purely speaking on enemy armor and enemy damage.

I assumed mods would be addressed in some capacity if DE were to ever address energy economy and/or player power.  They kind of go hand in hand.  As most wafrframe designs these days are actually pretty well done (in terms of not being overly power creepy or meta defining.)  That being said though I still 100% think the mission structures need changing if we're going to essentially cut back on the "mass genocide" that is this game's current thing.  Doing such should hopefully open up more roles to be played other than DPS.  DE could also finally look into mechanics like Aggro pulling to be a bit more fleshed out if they went that route.

To be perfectly clear I think Warframe will continue to thrive if they stick to this current route as long as they keep finding ways to make the player feel powerful or cool.  But I think it would be better for the game population overhaul if they actually started working towards being a true cooperative experience rather than a farm together experience.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

I'm with OP although i see overabundance of energy and unrepresentative, rigid energy costs as the real problem:

Being able to nuke an area every few minutes as something you earn by playing economically is OK in my book. Spamming away ults just like lesser skills 24/7 is not.

Now in case of Saryn's spores fixing that still wouldn't be enough i guess, as her most broken skill is also the least costly. One solution could be introducing energy drain while spores are active. Or just fixing the numbers by introducing a damage cap.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Toppien:

the recent saryn rework was a mistake, she was fine before

Well i think mechanically she is alot more interesting that before (plastering molt with spores over and over was kinda dull). It's just an efficiency problem.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Rankii]

People still use banshee?