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AOE RUINING ALL THE GAME

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1 hour ago, KaijuKraid said:

Never denied there was NOT a problem with Saryn currently, just that the places she's 'OP' in kind of requires her to be at the state they chose her to be in because ESO needs changes. As I said: Change ESO, Armour Scaling and Damage Typings, then work on Saryn. No one in their right mind can think Enemy Armour Scaling is in a good state at higher levels of the game currently (Just look at what Wolf is like without anyway to shred his armour during a full squad Kuva Flood Mission.) Saryn's 'infinite damage' does need a while to build up still. 

I did actually want to use Ember as a big example of what happens when a Frame who was designed for basically a different part of the game ends up not only getting a complete ability change (Overheat to Accerlent) but also how changing how her other three abilities have ended have ended up making her pretty much not used by the rest of the community. 

But yes, let's take a look at Loki and Inaros. Loki, once probably considered the best all-round warframe has definitely fallen off hasn't he? But at one point he was pretty much a good pick for everything. Inaros, on the otherhand, is always a welcome pick to any team for anything outside of Eidolons and perhaps ESO and no one complains that Inaros essentially doesn't die so there's no real risk/reward factor for him in Arbitrations. 

Damage is only king in one place: ESO. 

Then what is the point of ESO if it's not about Focus Farming? It's certainly what was used originally and how DE wanted to balance ESO. Their first change to ESO even points this out. Is it for the Lato/Braton Vandal Pieces? Because 15/20 minutes for a 1-2% drop rate is pretty atrocious. Is iit for the Radiant Relics? Because, again, while they are nice to have it would be better to wait for a Endless Fissure or just do something like Xini or Mithra. I can at the moment max Focus daily cap in 2 runs which also gives me Radiant Relics or a chance for Lato/Braton as well as perhaps flaming steps.

You say it's a 'non point', but if it's a non-point, then what IS the point of ESO at this point in time? Remove the levelling of weapons and focus from ESO and you're left with a game mode where once you got the Lato/Braton/Flaming Steps, there's nothing left for it. At this point, I think we can agree that ESO needs to be changed. 

The thing is, we have problems in general with armour and damage. A lot of damage types need to be changed or reworked. Physical Damage Typing, aside from Slash, just seem to plain suck also. We're coming to a point where people want Negative Impact/Puncture in Rivens. We definitely don't want to see Magnetic since it's resisted by the most tankiest stuff in the game and just generally doesn't do anything except V Shields. We don't want to see Blast because status wise it makes it harder to kill enemies and damage wise everything weak to Blast (aside from Machinery enemies, which are only four things like Rollers, Latchers, Regulators) are MORE weak to Corrosive.

Again, we bring up Ember and look how bad she was treated.

And finally Oberon. Oberon can be used in more content. Oberon was never made to be a damage dealer on the same level as Saryn or Mesa. But his 'lack of damage scaling' is made up for the fact he can radiate enemies and entirely strip their armour as well as blinding them. He is almost like Inaros in a way that he is a safe pick for the majority of content.

Aside from ESO and Defence, where else is Saryn actually important? Her damage does not matter in any other Endless Mode. Exterminate? As you said, anyone with a whip can clear that out easily. Arbitrations don't need her except in Defence and we can say for sure that Arbitrations are broken when most people just rather want to wait for Excavation or Interception to come up. (That or the Hydron/Helene Map for Defence.) Sorties? Again, Defence. 

Again I point this out: Fix the damage/armour problems, since this is something that many people do complain about. Most of the time we're building for Status/Corrosive and having to pretty much equip Corrosive Projection all the time. Saryn allows people to use their other weapons. As I said before: Saryn is at the moment definitely a symptom of problems. If after changes Saryn is still a problem, definitely nerf her.

Otherwise: We may end up with another Ember, who has been changed so many times and nerfed many times due to both content that no longer is relevant to her and for her ability to turn low level content into a bullet jump/walking simulator. 

Sure, it's fair to say ESO should change along with a Saryn nerf, if it were to happen.

Regarding Inaros, *all he does* is not die. The tornado thing is mediocre at best, 1 provides relatively minor CC, and his 2 is purely self-sustain. Like, sure, Inaros can be relied on to not die, but he also doesn't do anything helpful. Also his passive is useless (as many Warframe passives unfortunately can be) because its damage can't scale and there's no way low-level enemies will down him.

The point of ESO is, as I've pointed out twice now, to try providing "challenging endgame content". Relics, affinity, exclusive rewards, those are just incentives - they are not the reason behind its existence. Focus can be done just as well with any source of rapid affinity gain, nothing about ESO offers a bonus or anything specific to gaining focus, so yeah, it's not directly a factor here. We are agreed that it could do with changes, though to my mind those changes would occur as a knock-on effect of directly addressing the modding situation and the chain of dominoes regarding damage scaling, damage types, status effects, armor scaling, enemy scaling, etc.

Rivens, for their part, just made the modding power spike even worse. It is telling though that negative IPS on Rivens is preferred. (I really wish Rivens had never been introduced, it was a bad idea all-around for player trading, for the power increase, for failing miserably to address weapon imbalance, for adding a thoroughly frustrating source of multiple layers of RNG - but lord knows hell would be raised if they were to be removed now, especially with how much some players have invested in them....)

Blast has its moments of utility, having some soft CC isn't terrible on low fire rate weapons or melee - but that's the only thing it's useful for and it suffers damage penalties, so yeah, it's pretty subpar as-is.

Oberon is my favorite Warframe, but he has *no* high-end damage utility, save for the very specific niche of Smite-ing Kela de Thaym to death. Everything about his kit is effectively CC, healing/survivability, and low-level AOE damage. The main reason I like him so much is simply being able to keep allies alive against scaled-up enemies, and I just like using my guns to kill things - but in terms of actual effectiveness he's not that great for high levels of difficulty. Yes, he does have the armor strip - but that's *if* you can get enemies all onto your hallowed ground *and* use the 4, which is a huge energy investment - especially if you're considering his channeled 3 ability, which I like having on at all times - and not at all something you're going to be able to just spam on every enemy around, in contrast to Saryn's 1 which spreads itself in large AOEs, continues ticking, and scales itself up, while also costing *significantly* less energy.

As for outside ESO, Saryn was always useful against Corpus by virtue of her Toxin focus; now, she's useful anywhere. She can significantly buff her weapons, she can do AOE nuking, she can inflict all enemies in a wide area with Viral (which is a *hugely* useful thing!), she has her 1 which has self-scaling and Corrosive to deal with armor, her 2 can act as aggro and thus provide her with a means to contribute to defensive mission types...assuming she doesn't just kill everything before it can damage the objective.

Like, sure everyone can make due with the memeing strike whip (which is another thing that's broken ONLY because of the mods), but that doesn't mean Saryn's just not useful outside of ESO. The only thing she actually lacks is a means to heal teammates.

I'll agree that Saryn's rework was definitely a symptoms of the problems plaguing the game. But she is now one of those causal factors. I don't want her to become another Ember either, but I just don't see why she got such a perfect package when so many other Warframes have such lackluster kits.

Edited by TheGreenFellow
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2 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

The point of ESO is, as I've pointed out twice now, to try providing "challenging endgame content". Relics, affinity, exclusive rewards, those are just incentives - they are not the reason behind its existence. Focus can be done just as well with any source of rapid affinity gain, nothing about ESO offers a bonus or anything specific to gaining focus, so yeah, it's not directly a factor here. We are agreed that it could do with changes, though to my mind those changes would occur as a knock-on effect of directly addressing the modding situation and the chain of dominoes regarding damage scaling, damage types, status effects, armor scaling, enemy scaling, etc.

You may keep pointing out the reason, but I also pointing out that there is no reason to do ESO though if there's no real rewards to it. If you want people to do your 'Challenging End Game Content' it needs to have something to it to make it worth playing. Arbitrations are played because people either want Vitus (Which in the future is said to have Archgun Riven Mods), Want a ton of Endo or want to get the Mods from it (or to get Seeding Step.) It also, in my opinion, does the 'Challenging End Game content' far better than ESO does. 

5 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Rivens, for their part, just made the modding power spike even worse. It is telling though that negative IPS on Rivens is preferred. (I really wish Rivens had never been introduced, it was a bad idea all-around for player trading, for the power increase, for failing miserably to address weapon imbalance, for adding a thoroughly frustrating source of multiple layers of RNG - but lord knows hell would be raised if they were to be removed now, especially with how much some players have invested in them....)

Oh I agree with this. I like the IDEAS of Rivens, but I don't like their implementation. Though I find it hiliarious that people are getting mad now that DE have continued their promise on how they wanted to balance Rivens in the first place. However we have Rivens now and we have to learn to live with them. 

6 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Oberon is my favorite Warframe, but he has *no* high-end damage utility, save for the very specific niche of Smite-ing Kela de Thaym to death. Everything about his kit is effectively CC, healing/survivability, and low-level AOE damage. The main reason I like him so much is simply being able to keep allies alive against scaled-up enemies, and I just like using my guns to kill things - but in terms of actual effectiveness he's not that great for high levels of difficulty. Yes, he does have the armor strip - but that's *if* you can get enemies all onto your hallowed ground *and* use the 4, which is a huge energy investment - especially if you're considering his channeled 3 ability, which I like having on at all times - and not at all something you're going to be able to just spam on every enemy around, in contrast to Saryn's 1 which spreads itself in large AOEs, continues ticking, and scales itself up, while also costing *significantly* less energy.

But this was my point exactly. Oberon can remove armour and can radiate enemies. I never said ANYTHING about his damage because I know his damage is also not the greatest. (I like using him quite a bit.) My point is that Oberon can appear in more content because of his ability to do more stuff to enemies and help support a team more than Saryn. Oberon can appear in far more Arbitrations, can appear in a lot more sorties and even appears in Profit Taker. He even has a niche use in Eidolons, though Harrow or Trinity may be better, Oberon is definitely a very good fifth choice behind the main four. I never said anything about his damage because I know Oberon is never played for damage, but for his utility. He also can keep teammates alive when you're doing an arbitration and someone decides to do something really stupid. (Come on DE though, remove his interaction with his 3 + Nekros already please. You make playing Survival Arbitrations very difficult.) 

 

12 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

As for outside ESO, Saryn was always useful against Corpus by virtue of her Toxin focus; now, she's useful anywhere. She can significantly buff her weapons, she can do AOE nuking, she can inflict all enemies in a wide area with Viral (which is a *hugely* useful thing!), she has her 1 which has self-scaling and Corrosive to deal with armor, her 2 can act as aggro and thus provide her with a means to contribute to defensive mission types...assuming she doesn't just kill everything before it can damage the objective.

Here's the thing. At pretty much all levels of Starchart and to Sortie level, bringing Saryn can actually be slower than bringing another Warframe for the meat grinder. Say we're up against Corpus Exterminate with Shield Enhancement level. Saryn definitely has her uses here, I agree. However I can also tell you modding certain weapons with Gas or Toxin can also get the same effect.

But when it comes to other 'defensive mission types', aside from Defence, none of those require you to actually kill enemies. Go into a public mobile defence mission and I can assure you almost most of the time you'll come across a Limbo. On Excavation (+Arbitration), it'll be Frost or Gara. On Interception (+Arbitration) unless it's a farming (people still do Bere Farming? Most likely not) then you'll find people just bring whatever they can with good survival. As for Defence Missions... oh boy. Things can go very slowly without a Saryn or Equinox. Like, slower than Interception for sure. 

Plus bonus: If I'm doing a lot more killing on Excavation/Interception Arbitrations than other people, like say I'm 70% of the damage (which happens quite a bit as Khora for me on those missions), I'm still not in a position where I am actually helping. My Strangledome and my Ensnare are the parts that are helping, with the damage being icing on top of the cake.

21 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

I'll agree that Saryn's rework was definitely a symptoms of the problems plaguing the game. But she is now one of those causal factors. I don't want her to become another Ember either, but I just don't see why she got such a perfect package when so many other Warframes have such lackluster kits.

Well, I think I can certainly understand this. First, you mentioned it was Steve in a earlier post, but that was actually Pablo. Didn't want to correct that because it's such a minor thing, but here it's important. Pablo found a way to make Saryn's kit 'mesh better', despite the fact that I too found no real reason to change her from 2.0 version. (But if you ask me back in the day, I'd also tell you I found nothing wrong with her 1.0 version where negative duration basically made her a press 4 to win frame. But now I definitely see why they changed that.)

Ember was 'reworked' and was... just bad. She wasn't reworked by Pablo. A lot of Pablo's reworks have seemingly made Warframes more played/more fun, such as the Nezha Rework and the Saryn rework. Ember is pretty outdated and has changed a lot since her original time that I remember her. If you don't know, her 2 used to essentially make her near invincible and gave essentially an aura that dealt more fire damage. She played more like a Close Range Mage rather than a long ranged Mage. She got up close and with her Fire Blast allowing her to panic if enemies started actually hurting her and her world on fire constantly also dealing damage, she could stay thick in the fight.

With Overheat gone and Accelerant taking it's place, she changed from that to now having to stay longer range so she doesn't take as much damage. Yes, they increased her armour, but she never regained that damage reduction. Overheat was removed because it basically allowed Ember to stay alive for a very long period of time. These days though, we have Nova, who not only has an easier damage reduction, but has a far more better thought out kit. Strange though that Nova was definitely out and released long before Ember lost Overheat. 

Not only that, but with some abilities now changing from set duration to toggle (Sound Quake and World on Fire) as well as World on Fire gaining several changes even before the last one, Ember basically became the go to frame at the time to super clear low level content trash. Now we're left with a frame that lost its identity years ago and then keeps getting changed because they want to keep whatever shred of identity she has now.

Plus back in the day, Ember was literally marketed as the Warframe of Choice to deal with Infested. And this also ties in to the problem of damage types. Fire is just weaker than both Electric and Poison. (Fire is also good V Cloned Flesh, but that means you need to strip all the armour from the Grineer just to actually get that extra damage.) Once again, coming back to the problem of Damage Types and some needing buffs and nerfs. 

Saryn got reworked well because someone found a way to make her work again. DE were clearly tired of people spamming Spores on Molt, but then felt that would weaken her too much. (I never really played that way except to put Spores on SOMETHING.)

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23 hours ago, Revantis said:

Speed meta mentality is dominating almost every game i play atm, Its a modern expectation it seems. They really need to just add content to the game that makes the other "non" AoE frames shine. For instance, in arbitration i pretty much only take Gara. I dont think i have ever considered taking saryn a single time and i have most of my time played on her. Nidus, Inaros,Gara, and Garuda to just name a few have Literally insane survivability while also providing amazing utility/damage/CC of some kind.

What you are seeing is the game itself has grown into speed min/max game because its main focus is farming. When other content that is less based on speed clearing and is centered around something else, more group CC/defensive builds and play styles will follow, until then nerfing Ember hasnt stopped low level map clearing it just moved other frames to the forefront. Will we nerf every frame until AoE is useless the game moves at a snails pace and your favorite frame is the best one?

I take it you play Path of Exile as well? That's what got me started on the "nerf all the minmax speed meta" mindset. As players grow stronger and more efficient at trivializing the game, the developers have to come up with ways to make the game more challenging to keep them interested. The easy way out for developers is to introduce tougher enemies and bosses, with far greater health, immunities to abilities and mechanics, and strong enough to 1shot the players with next to no telegraphing. Path of Exile has all of these, Warframe's starting to show signs of it with things like nullifiers, combas and scrambuses, shield dargyns, terra shield ospreys in Orb Vallis, and the absolute cluster#*!% that is the Profit-Taker Orb fight.

The downside to all of this, for both games, is that this raises the skill floor and makes subpar builds and playstyles less and less viable for endgame. Not everyone is a meta cheese mechanic abuser, we shouldn't be screwing over the lesser skilled or equipped players because they want to run bad builds they enjoy.

We need nerfs. We need to lower the skill ceiling instead of raising the skill floor, and doing so will encourage players to actually run more builds and playstyles they like rather than always gunning for the most efficient one that'll finish missions in as little time as possible.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I take it you play Path of Exile as well? That's what got me started on the "nerf all the minmax speed meta" mindset. As players grow stronger and more efficient at trivializing the game, the developers have to come up with ways to make the game more challenging to keep them interested. The easy way out for developers is to introduce tougher enemies and bosses, with far greater health, immunities to abilities and mechanics, and strong enough to 1shot the players with next to no telegraphing. Path of Exile has all of these, Warframe's starting to show signs of it with things like nullifiers, combas and scrambuses, shield dargyns, terra shield ospreys in Orb Vallis, and the absolute cluster#*!% that is the Profit-Taker Orb fight.

The downside to all of this, for both games, is that this raises the skill floor and makes subpar builds and playstyles less and less viable for endgame. Not everyone is a meta cheese mechanic abuser, we shouldn't be screwing over the lesser skilled or equipped players because they want to run bad builds they enjoy.

We need nerfs. We need to lower the skill ceiling instead of raising the skill floor, and doing so will encourage players to actually run more builds and playstyles they like rather than always gunning for the most efficient one that'll finish missions in as little time as possible.

But in return. We get frames that only get nerfed. While the awful damage system stays the same.  De needs to rethink how armor works with grinner. It's not fun dealing with a faction at lvl 100 that feel like bullet sponges.

Edited by moostar95

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15 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I take it you play Path of Exile as well? That's what got me started on the "nerf all the minmax speed meta" mindset. As players grow stronger and more efficient at trivializing the game, the developers have to come up with ways to make the game more challenging to keep them interested. The easy way out for developers is to introduce tougher enemies and bosses, with far greater health, immunities to abilities and mechanics, and strong enough to 1shot the players with next to no telegraphing. Path of Exile has all of these, Warframe's starting to show signs of it with things like nullifiers, combas and scrambuses, shield dargyns, terra shield ospreys in Orb Vallis, and the absolute cluster#*!% that is the Profit-Taker Orb fight.

The downside to all of this, for both games, is that this raises the skill floor and makes subpar builds and playstyles less and less viable for endgame. Not everyone is a meta cheese mechanic abuser, we shouldn't be screwing over the lesser skilled or equipped players because they want to run bad builds they enjoy.

We need nerfs. We need to lower the skill ceiling instead of raising the skill floor, and doing so will encourage players to actually run more builds and playstyles they like rather than always gunning for the most efficient one that'll finish missions in as little time as possible.

We need buff for everything, to the point of grineer armor scaling.

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Posted (edited)

Wow, something spazzed out with the forums when I was trying to compose a reply and I have NO idea what just happened. Will try and fix.

Edited by TheGreenFellow

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

You may keep pointing out the reason, but I also pointing out that there is no reason to do ESO though if there's no real rewards to it. If you want people to do your 'Challenging End Game Content' it needs to have something to it to make it worth playing. Arbitrations are played because people either want Vitus (Which in the future is said to have Archgun Riven Mods), Want a ton of Endo or want to get the Mods from it (or to get Seeding Step.) It also, in my opinion, does the 'Challenging End Game content' far better than ESO does. 

Right. Incentives. You just seemed to be claiming they were the reason for ESO's existence, which is different - hence the phrase I used, "cart before the horse".
 

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Oh I agree with this. I like the IDEAS of Rivens, but I don't like their implementation. Though I find it hiliarious that people are getting mad now that DE have continued their promise on how they wanted to balance Rivens in the first place. However we have Rivens now and we have to learn to live with them.

I do wonder if it would be more appropriate for Rivens to have 2 drawback stats and 2 beneficial stats, as a sort of "super-corrupted" mod...but that's waxing off-topic for this thread!
 

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But this was my point exactly. Oberon can remove armour and can radiate enemies. I never said ANYTHING about his damage because I know his damage is also not the greatest. (I like using him quite a bit.) My point is that Oberon can appear in more content because of his ability to do more stuff to enemies and help support a team more than Saryn. Oberon can appear in far more Arbitrations, can appear in a lot more sorties and even appears in Profit Taker. He even has a niche use in Eidolons, though Harrow or Trinity may be better, Oberon is definitely a very good fifth choice behind the main four. I never said anything about his damage because I know Oberon is never played for damage, but for his utility. He also can keep teammates alive when you're doing an arbitration and someone decides to do something really stupid. (Come on DE though, remove his interaction with his 3 + Nekros already please. You make playing Survival Arbitrations very difficult.)

Oberon is always useful to a squad, but his kit does not offer near as much as Saryn does where defeating enemies is concerned. You have to 'carry' with weapons when using Oberon as opposed to relying on abilities for damage. So where this discussion is concerned, Saryn has clear superiorities *except* where team support is concerned, and there's a few other examples as well of Warframes that are much better suited for dealing AOE damage (Mesa, Equinox, Garuda, Volt all come to mind).
 

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Here's the thing. At pretty much all levels of Starchart and to Sortie level, bringing Saryn can actually be slower than bringing another Warframe for the meat grinder. Say we're up against Corpus Exterminate with Shield Enhancement level. Saryn definitely has her uses here, I agree. However I can also tell you modding certain weapons with Gas or Toxin can also get the same effect.

But...using Saryn together with those weapons would very likely be the best possible combination for that. She can add Viral, enhance the toxin by a *lot*, and add spores to help deal with robotic enemies. Hydroid and Equinox can do alright, too, for bypassing shields and all, but still.
 

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 But when it comes to other 'defensive mission types', aside from Defence, none of those require you to actually kill enemies. Go into a public mobile defence mission and I can assure you almost most of the time you'll come across a Limbo. On Excavation (+Arbitration), it'll be Frost or Gara. On Interception (+Arbitration) unless it's a farming (people still do Bere Farming? Most likely not) then you'll find people just bring whatever they can with good survival. As for Defence Missions... oh boy. Things can go very slowly without a Saryn or Equinox. Like, slower than Interception for sure.

Good luck completing a high-level excavation with just a Frost or Gara, especially with Corpus around! Certainly, Limbo is effective at Mobile Defense, but similarly doesn't work too well against Corpus - and really, why focus on freezing enemies if you can just kill them all before they become troublesome instead? Saryn's AOE range is much higher than even Limbo can push out as well. No mission is difficult when the enemies are all dead, y'know? (Granted that Corpus bubbles do stop spores and nuking, too.) And defence is just slow as a mission mode, killing enemies faster doesn't necessarily mean much when it's mostly limited by spawn rate timers - I really do wish DE would reduce the waves to 3 instead of 5 as baseline....
 

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Plus bonus: If I'm doing a lot more killing on Excavation/Interception Arbitrations than other people, like say I'm 70% of the damage (which happens quite a bit as Khora for me on those missions), I'm still not in a position where I am actually helping. My Strangledome and my Ensnare are the parts that are helping, with the damage being icing on top of the cake.

I'd argue it's both.
 

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Well, I think I can certainly understand this. First, you mentioned it was Steve in a earlier post, but that was actually Pablo. Didn't want to correct that because it's such a minor thing, but here it's important. Pablo found a way to make Saryn's kit 'mesh better', despite the fact that I too found no real reason to change her from 2.0 version. (But if you ask me back in the day, I'd also tell you I found nothing wrong with her 1.0 version where negative duration basically made her a press 4 to win frame. But now I definitely see why they changed that.)

Ach, you're probably right. I just know it was some particular DE dude that had a hardon for reworking Saryn. 
 

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Ember was 'reworked' and was... just bad. She wasn't reworked by Pablo. A lot of Pablo's reworks have seemingly made Warframes more played/more fun, such as the Nezha Rework and the Saryn rework. Ember is pretty outdated and has changed a lot since her original time that I remember her. If you don't know, her 2 used to essentially make her near invincible and gave essentially an aura that dealt more fire damage. She played more like a Close Range Mage rather than a long ranged Mage. She got up close and with her Fire Blast allowing her to panic if enemies started actually hurting her and her world on fire constantly also dealing damage, she could stay thick in the fight.

With Overheat gone and Accelerant taking it's place, she changed from that to now having to stay longer range so she doesn't take as much damage. Yes, they increased her armour, but she never regained that damage reduction. Overheat was removed because it basically allowed Ember to stay alive for a very long period of time. These days though, we have Nova, who not only has an easier damage reduction, but has a far more better thought out kit. Strange though that Nova was definitely out and released long before Ember lost Overheat. 

Not only that, but with some abilities now changing from set duration to toggle (Sound Quake and World on Fire) as well as World on Fire gaining several changes even before the last one, Ember basically became the go to frame at the time to super clear low level content trash. Now we're left with a frame that lost its identity years ago and then keeps getting changed because they want to keep whatever shred of identity she has now.

Plus back in the day, Ember was literally marketed as the Warframe of Choice to deal with Infested. And this also ties in to the problem of damage types. Fire is just weaker than both Electric and Poison. (Fire is also good V Cloned Flesh, but that means you need to strip all the armour from the Grineer just to actually get that extra damage.) Once again, coming back to the problem of Damage Types and some needing buffs and nerfs.

Yeah, with Ember it's really bizarre - their reasoning was wanting to avoid "afk affinity farming" or whatever? Yet look at all these other powerful AOE Warframes...it's such an odd inconsistency. The way you describe her old kit makes her sound quite useful though, despite (as you mention) her damage type being one of the least useful.
 

Quote

Saryn got reworked well because someone found a way to make her work again. DE were clearly tired of people spamming Spores on Molt, but then felt that would weaken her too much. (I never really played that way except to put Spores on SOMETHING.)

Meh, she worked before though - she didn't "need" fixing, though you do raise a great point about the goofy spores + molt interaction - that was pretty dumb and shouldn't ever have been a thing to begin with.

Edited by TheGreenFellow
fixing spacing

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17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I take it you play Path of Exile as well? That's what got me started on the "nerf all the minmax speed meta" mindset. As players grow stronger and more efficient at trivializing the game, the developers have to come up with ways to make the game more challenging to keep them interested. The easy way out for developers is to introduce tougher enemies and bosses, with far greater health, immunities to abilities and mechanics, and strong enough to 1shot the players with next to no telegraphing. Path of Exile has all of these, Warframe's starting to show signs of it with things like nullifiers, combas and scrambuses, shield dargyns, terra shield ospreys in Orb Vallis, and the absolute cluster#*!% that is the Profit-Taker Orb fight.

The downside to all of this, for both games, is that this raises the skill floor and makes subpar builds and playstyles less and less viable for endgame. Not everyone is a meta cheese mechanic abuser, we shouldn't be screwing over the lesser skilled or equipped players because they want to run bad builds they enjoy.

We need nerfs. We need to lower the skill ceiling instead of raising the skill floor, and doing so will encourage players to actually run more builds and playstyles they like rather than always gunning for the most efficient one that'll finish missions in as little time as possible.

this is the very thing i absolute loath about path of exile and have stopped playing it after reaching lvl 86.

agree with everything written here.

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22 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Right. Incentives. You just seemed to be claiming they were the reason for ESO's existence, which is different - hence the phrase I used, "cart before the horse".

OH, no I was merely saying that 'Endgame' needs incentives. ESO's incentive at the moment is Focus and that's it. A better analogy here though would be that the endgame is a donkey and the Incentive is the Carrot on the Stick. You need that donkey to transport you, but you need a reason for that donkey to start plodding along. (Sidenote: Personally, if I were to fix SO/ESO and keep it for Focus/Affinity, I'd make it so that SO now has the Radiant Relics + Khora and ESO has the Lato/Braton/Fire Steps + a majority of the rewards being some kind of Eidolon Shards. You still get Focus, but now you get more focus on top of that focus. Something for people to do while it's Daytime.. oh and make it ABCCCCC and fix Efficiency so you can at least perhaps get to wave 12.) 

While the creation of ESO WAS to facilitate Endgame, the rewards at the time also needed to suit and match. Thus bringing back Braton/Lato Vandals as well as those Peculiar Mods, which really no one seemed to want. I still think Arbitrations does this very well with Endo/Sculptures and some decent Mods as well as a token system to buy more stuff that can be added to that store later on. The complaint from many 'Endgamers' before and after ESO was that there's no real reward for longer than C rotation aside from the 'feel good' factor of being able to do such a challenge.

31 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

But...using Saryn together with those weapons would very likely be the best possible combination for that. She can add Viral, enhance the toxin by a *lot*, and add spores to help deal with robotic enemies. Hydroid and Equinox can do alright, too, for bypassing shields and all, but still.

Agreed. However it's also pretty insane watching Corpus die from anything with just a Gas Ignis Wraith, a weapon that Saryn indeed carries alot with her but also carried by many people still. Shields generally tend to die super quickly outside of Shield Enhancement anyways, so generally it's usually a non-issue. 

35 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Good luck completing a high-level excavation with just a Frost or Gara, especially with Corpus around! Certainly, Limbo is effective at Mobile Defense, but similarly doesn't work too well against Corpus - and really, why focus on freezing enemies if you can just kill them all before they become troublesome instead? Saryn's AOE range is much higher than even Limbo can push out as well. No mission is difficult when the enemies are all dead, y'know? (Granted that Corpus bubbles do stop spores and nuking, too.) And defence is just slow as a mission mode, killing enemies faster doesn't necessarily mean much when it's mostly limited by spawn rate timers - I really do wish DE would reduce the waves to 3 instead of 5 as baseline....

Actually, I seen Garas solo Excavation Arbitrations up to at least wave 20! Only at this point I decide "You know what, I can't solo these anymore without threat of dying/Excavator dying, so I'm going to hug my new best friend." Gara and Khora alone can definitely handle 30+ before both die from supreme boredom or a Corpus man getting a lucky hit on anything that's not Inaros (I think Inaros might even die to that. Not sure yet.) Definitely seen 30ish on Interception with No Saryn either because enemies are more of a nuisence then an actual threat in those missions. These are also pub games, so I do wonder how non-pub can work.

Talking Corpus here also. Corpus enemies need a nerf at high levels I swear to god because I feel they can get past damage reduction thanks to their insane Puncture damage. (50% Armour Ignore + 50% Bonus Damage.) But this really shows where DE want to balance their enemies. Grineer can become insane bullet sponges and Corpus can one shot you because these aren't the levels that DE are wanting to choosing to balance the game at.  Plus Corpus Bubbles + Drones make it much much harder to start spreading spores everywhere. (Ever seen 1+ Arbitration Drone protect 2+ Energy Leeches and 3 Nullifers, all ontop of each other with one of those Nullifers being a Ice one? NOT FUN.) 

Arbitrations (and previous actions) shows that DE want to balance their game mostly around Star Chart. If Saryn gets nerfed because of Starchart, then ESO, Sortie Defence and perhaps Arbitration Defence probably need fixes also. I can agree with this.

50 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Yeah, with Ember it's really bizarre - their reasoning was wanting to avoid "afk affinity farming" or whatever? Yet look at all these other powerful AOE Warframes...it's such an odd inconsistency. The way you describe her old kit makes her sound quite useful though, despite (as you mention) her damage type being one of the least useful.

Well, 'Useful' might be the wrong statement in some regards. This was before Augments and even before the Void became a thing and this was years ago at this point, but I remember going into defence missions (The Corpus one that's inside the ship) and just basically going into groups of Infested and never dying to them. I remember we were supposed to have a max of 97% damage reduction, but I also recall never dying to them + Never taking any damage (though this was many years ago now, so I could be wrong. I do remember though thinking it's weird taking 0 damage.) The problem is, the enemies would also take a long time to kill also after getting to high waves. I basically just existed at that point to distract enemies while my DoTs and my melee weapon would take care of them. Melee was no where near as good as it was in those days either. 

Plus later on: Nova and Valkyr would be released while Overheat still existed. Wanted to do what I did with Ember? Just play Valkyr instead at that point. Nova was also considered the frame to play for super high damage glass cannon gameplay. Giving Ember more damage was a good idea, but ultimately it came at the cost of losing most of her defence. She didn't even get armour increases until much later after they removed overheat (from 15 Armour to 100 + more in Prime) and her augments are trying to make her into a more supportive role with extra casting speed/knock downs while trying to make her increase damage by Fire and increase more damage by Fire. 

This is why I wish people are careful about Saryn nerfs. The whole argument about Ember is EXACTLY why people need to be careful. "Ember was nerfed because of X, so why isn't Saryn." can EASILY be followed up by "Look at how they overdid Ember nerfs." (Sidenote: I get people actually telling me Ember is fine because they can do X. Just because I can bring Ember to Sorties solo or that I can do long survival runs with Ember doesn't mean she's "fine.") 

It's easy to look at kills/damage done and think that's the only thing important, which in Exterminates, Defences and ESO, it is. None of the other game modes care about those figures. All but one Arbitration definitely doesn't care about those numbers either and I would consider Arbitration a better and more 'proper' version of an Endgame than ESO. Though, as I mentioned before, ESO definitely needs a lot of fixes. 

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2 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

Though, as I mentioned before, ESO definitely needs a lot of fixes. 

ESO doesn't need fixes - it needs to be removed from the game. Replacing it with something mildly entertaining or at least not mind numbingly boring (including rewarding "rewards" an added bonus) would be optional.

 

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"the press button to win should not be ever exist", blackfox, you're implying that not only the aoe frames shouldnt have these, you're also saying other frames like loki with his invisibility, rhino with his roar buff, etc, shouldnt exist, please think about it carefully before you give false information.

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On 2019-04-16 at 9:38 AM, TheGreenFellow said:

Efficiency-seeking is a natural expectation of any video gamer. Where I think you are mistaken is that "enemy scaling has demanded a player power increase" - it's the other way around. DE has designed enemies around the player power increases, which is primarily thanks to the modding. If we didn't have those mods, I guarantee enemy scaling would not be so crazy.

It is absolutely true, though, that DE has to address both at the same time - really, everything in the domino chain of armor scaling, damage types, status types, and enemy design as you mention - all of that would need to be part of the overhaul. It'd be a big project, there's no denying that, but I think it is absolutely necessary for the long-term health of the game.

I'd also somewhat agree that Warframe balance is not as big of an issue, but the baseline numbers of Warframes/guns are what get magnified exponentially by mods, so any existing imbalances in guns & Warframes are indeed a causal factor. You are correct again, though, that just nerfing Warframes would not be successful.

 

 

I'll have to partially disagree.  Enemy scaling was a problem back in the void days when only a few frames had the ability to room wipe.  (Saryn being the main one.)  Granted I didn't get into Warframe till a few months before abilities were no longer cards you had to equip.  So prior to that the enemies could have been reasonable.  I don't know.  I do agree that at some point DE did start adding enemies in specifically to counter act our power.  But i'm purely speaking on enemy armor and enemy damage.

I assumed mods would be addressed in some capacity if DE were to ever address energy economy and/or player power.  They kind of go hand in hand.  As most wafrframe designs these days are actually pretty well done (in terms of not being overly power creepy or meta defining.)  That being said though I still 100% think the mission structures need changing if we're going to essentially cut back on the "mass genocide" that is this game's current thing.  Doing such should hopefully open up more roles to be played other than DPS.  DE could also finally look into mechanics like Aggro pulling to be a bit more fleshed out if they went that route.

To be perfectly clear I think Warframe will continue to thrive if they stick to this current route as long as they keep finding ways to make the player feel powerful or cool.  But I think it would be better for the game population overhaul if they actually started working towards being a true cooperative experience rather than a farm together experience.

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Posted (edited)

I'm with OP although i see overabundance of energy and unrepresentative, rigid energy costs as the real problem:

Being able to nuke an area every few minutes as something you earn by playing economically is OK in my book. Spamming away ults just like lesser skills 24/7 is not.

Now in case of Saryn's spores fixing that still wouldn't be enough i guess, as her most broken skill is also the least costly. One solution could be introducing energy drain while spores are active. Or just fixing the numbers by introducing a damage cap.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Toppien:

the recent saryn rework was a mistake, she was fine before

Well i think mechanically she is alot more interesting that before (plastering molt with spores over and over was kinda dull). It's just an efficiency problem.

Edited by Kotsender_Quasimir
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