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SpongeCakeS

Auction house

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On 2019-04-14 at 10:21 PM, Juin_Roet said:

Trading houses are a great idea! However, I think the reasoning is that with ease of access more players would be trading, leading to an increase in trade supplies, which may cause a decrease in item value, which essentially inflates the value of platinum. Great for players, not so great for plat purchases since you could do more with less.

Because since trade plat just circulates between players, that means that DE gets nothing for it, to compensate for that, DE would need to increase/incentivize their platinum offerings/sinks: inventory slots, colors, decoratives, buy now options so that platinum would be drained from the economy and have to be purchased, and do so in ways that I doubt would prove popular.

Like creating things that cannot be traded, or that only have a .5% chance drop every 30 minutes from a unique and mind numbing game mode to inflate prices, or locking the grind for certain items behind a paywall.

Yes this essentially means you're paying a tax of time and inflated prices for DE's sake, but they have to make money to make the game.

So, until such a time as DE can secure a revenue stream in Warframe that isn't plat-locked, keeping the economy stable and by extension trade archaic makes sense.

All that said, I think there are things that could be done, and Lore/Scan integration Cephalon man made a passing comment about the inefficient state of trade recently regarding some riven tweaks, so maybe that's a touch of foreshadowing about changes to come?

 

On 2019-04-15 at 5:08 AM, Loswaith said:

While accurate there is an added factor.  If the value of platinum between players (the key factor as I doubt DE will change market prices) it makes the incentive to buy it much more appealing as you get better value for spending the real money when trading.
This also leads to players getting access to plat more easily, typically subscribing less effort to re-accumulate, thus more likely to spend it frivolously.

Plat does circulate between players (thus DE only makes money when plat needs to be replaced/initially bought), but the current incentive is to horde plat because trading prices are higher or more cumbersome to accumulate. 
Typically this leads to spending on a single bigger trade, rather than multiple smaller ones.  Generally speaking multiple smaller trades means plat is spread across more players (than a single large purchase) with the potential for more plat to leave the system via market purchases. After all one player only requires a single purchase of a specific cosmetic, slot, potato or whatever for that piece of gear just the once.  While multiple players requires the same thing purchased for the same purpose multiple times (ie more people with more plat means more sales of a specific item).

EG. one trade of 1000 plat goes to one person that then spends 20p on a catalyst, removes 20p from the system, or 10 trades for 100 plat going to 10 different players each buying a catalyst at 20p removes 200p from the system, the latter the obviously better result for DE.

 

Sure there are issues adding an auction/trading system, but there was issues that DE dealt with just adding in trading (something they were initially reluctant with as well).  We are hard pressed to say that trading overall hasn't worked out better for DE overall.

 

On 2019-04-15 at 5:39 AM, Steel_Rook said:

While I'm not an economist, wouldn't increasing trade without increasing the supply actually raise Platinum costs rather than lower them? Right now, a large part of an item's cost is the hassle of finding someone who'll sell it at a decent price. Warframe.market makes this less of a hassle by price sorting, but you're still hoping to find someone who'll respond to your chat within 15 minutes and is actually online and won't have sold the item or forgotten how to speak English by the time they respond. I know what general opinion is on an automated market so I know better than to suggest it. Just curious why people feel it'll lower costs rather than increase them.

 

 

You all missed something. Supply in this game I potentially infinite but demand is normally limited. Realistically it's limited by the number of people who 1) have an item 2) wish to sell it 3) are online. The demand is limited to 1) people who want to purchase 2) have enough plat to meet the sellers price 3) are online. 

An auction house makes the supply go up because people don't need to be online. Demand doesn't simultaneously rise because purchasers would still have to meet all of the requirements. 

That's why we would expect the prices to crash. Literally the only things that might escape that outcome are the godroll rivens, as each is unique, so it's pretty unlikely to have much competition. 

Now you might figure, price drops on most items, but then there's more purchases, so it evens out.... Except that's not how it works. In this game we only need one of most items. After that, nothing degrades, nothing needs repairs, there's no artificial inflation of demand, so no demand over time we don't need to buy another copy.

Yes lower price makes it possible that there would be more potential customers, but only once. And since the sellers have to slash their prices in hope of a sale, they wouldn't make it for very enthusiastic buyers. 

 

So no. Auction houses are probably not a good idea. 

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On 2019-04-17 at 12:00 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Now you might figure, price drops on most items, but then there's more purchases, so it evens out.... Except that's not how it works. In this game we only need one of most items. After that, nothing degrades, nothing needs repairs, there's no artificial inflation of demand, so no demand over time we don't need to buy another copy.

Yet, this is how it has always been in warframe and trading thrives, years down the line.  So by this aspect trading should have died off long ago as it is an issue that is on any trading system, not limited to only a trading/auction house system.

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2 hours ago, Loswaith said:

Yet, this is how it has always been in warframe and trading thrives, years down the line.  So by this aspect trading should have died off long ago as it is an issue that is on any trading system, not limited to only a trading/auction house system.

Only because the population keeps growing, and because we have one constant "sink" in the form of Baro that takes all the prime bps we can shovel into it. 

Take a look at how much junk is traded over the next few weeks. 

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On 2019-04-15 at 4:39 AM, (NSW)Belaptir said:

We don't need an AH and the reason has been explained thousands of times already. What could work is a marketplace. Basically what warframe.market does but in game. I put my items for sale in the marketplace and the buyer (or vendor) must contact me to do the trade manually as we do now. That might work since it just means we're not spamming the trade chat to sell something or filtering (and hoping) to find something we need.

I think that most people mean something like this when they ask for an auction house. 

To be honest, the only reason not to add something like this is either they don't want to spend the resources on something, or they don't see how they can grofit from it. If they were to add a small platinum trade tax on the marketplace (assuming it's automated) - say 5% or so; buyer pays it; then it would act as a platinum sink, players would be able to buy/sell what they want/have for a fair price, while if someone wants to avoid the platinum tax or wants to trade, they can still go through the trade chat and trade as we do now. 

Even just exactly what warframe.market does - but in-game - would be great, to be honest. 

Really, the only reason to be outright against it is if you're someone who buys and sells to players who don't know enough to look up the going rates. You know, the people who offer 50 plat for a vaulted warframe, then sell that same warframe for 300 plat to some new player who doesn't know about warframe.market or similar sites. 

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47 minutes ago, SableSonata said:

I think that most people mean something like this when they ask for an auction house. 

To be honest, the only reason not to add something like this is either they don't want to spend the resources on something, or they don't see how they can grofit from it. If they were to add a small platinum trade tax on the marketplace (assuming it's automated) - say 5% or so; buyer pays it; then it would act as a platinum sink, players would be able to buy/sell what they want/have for a fair price, while if someone wants to avoid the platinum tax or wants to trade, they can still go through the trade chat and trade as we do now. 

Even just exactly what warframe.market does - but in-game - would be great, to be honest. 

Really, the only reason to be outright against it is if you're someone who buys and sells to players who don't know enough to look up the going rates. You know, the people who offer 50 plat for a vaulted warframe, then sell that same warframe for 300 plat to some new player who doesn't know about warframe.market or similar sites. 

An AH is a different thing from a marketplace. As I know them from other games, an AH is basically an automated service of selling items. I put something there and it gets sold without any interaction between buyer and seller. That's what nobody wants because it would have disastrous consequences for the game's economy (hint: we don't want more bots than we already have, farming and selling automatically to grow their plat so they can sell it out of the game).

The marketplace on the other hand is a service where you put your items for sale but you still have to interact with the players and to be online to trade since they still have to contact each other to buy or sell. Basically, warframe.market. That lucky for us, is not automated and hence, even if there's a bot there, you still need to take care of the transaction.

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On 2019-04-15 at 1:08 PM, IceFire909 said:

I trade fairly regularly and don't "sit in the orbiter not playing"

My technique is

1. post the item up for sale

2. play the game

3. wait for someone to message me

4. reply that i will be roughly X minutes while i finish this mission

5. perform trade

6. GOTO 2.

When I do that I get the same message 90% of the time "I have already bought/sold it from/to someone else"

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On 2019-04-18 at 12:01 PM, (NSW)Belaptir said:

An AH is a different thing from a marketplace. As I know them from other games, an AH is basically an automated service of selling items. I put something there and it gets sold without any interaction between buyer and seller. That's what nobody wants because it would have disastrous consequences for the game's economy (hint: we don't want more bots than we already have, farming and selling automatically to grow their plat so they can sell it out of the game).

The marketplace on the other hand is a service where you put your items for sale but you still have to interact with the players and to be online to trade since they still have to contact each other to buy or sell. Basically, warframe.market. That lucky for us, is not automated and hence, even if there's a bot there, you still need to take care of the transaction.

Even a market would be great. Essentially we need to spark the conversation and alert DE on how awful the current trading system is. I spoke of AH as I don't know or I'm not familiar with other systems. Nor did I put much thought into it. But if DE hears us they might figure something out? After all I'm sure they have loads of people who understand the systems way more than I do and can come up with solutions that I would never even think off.

But it feels that even if we as a community can't find a common ground on AH discussion we can agree that the current trading system is atrocious.

And I would be happy for any step in a direction to improve the trading. Currently I end up not selling anything for most of the time because I would much rather play the game.

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4 minutes ago, SpongeCakeS said:

Even a market would be great. Essentially we need to spark the conversation and alert DE on how awful the current trading system is. I spoke of AH as I don't know or I'm not familiar with other systems. Nor did I put much thought into it. But if DE hears us they might figure something out? After all I'm sure they have loads of people who understand the systems way more than I do and can come up with solutions that I would never even think off.

But it feels that even if we as a community can't find a common ground on AH discussion we can agree that the current trading system is atrocious.

And I would be happy for any step in a direction to improve the trading. Currently I end up not selling anything for most of the time because I would much rather play the game.

One thing is for sure: the trading system as it is now sucks. And they need to address that. When people is relying on external sites to do the trading, there's a message being sent: Users need something better than the archaic trade chat.

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I support the idea of an Auction house (or marketplace, I am not nitpicking on the Core mechanics) 

I see some concerns that I am condensing here:

1) DE will lose profit - probably, but if a Plat tax is implemented they will have a steady sink (maybe have a minimum order value of 20p or something) which will in the long run be better than plat being shared within players.

2) Bots will corner the market - captcha or some other authentication method when making purchases. Also EULA does not allow you to use bots for gaining unfair advantages. 

3) value of items will drop - yes, but will reach a stable plateau depending on demand and supply, rare rivens will still have a good price but you will now have a choice and can compare. Common items and mods will probably be fixed at minimum value (already mentioned there should be minimum value so the percentages for tax make sense) 

4) I will not be able to sell something for exorbitant amounts to unsuspecting players that don't know better - yeah, no need to add anything to this statement its pretty much true. 

5) there are already external sites - that's good, less conceptualization to develop it in game. 

6) DE doesn't want to - DE changes its mind regularly. It is important that we are heard so they can take our opinions into account, that is the whole concept of feedback. If there was a megathread for auction house arguments I would agree with others that said you should search before starting a new topic. But since there isn't one I will support whenever I see such topics come up

 

 

The current trade system in game is very bare bones, and if DE does not wish to change it it is their game and their choice, but I would personally love it if they did as staring at trade chat and hoping to get a hit is highly unlikely (also depends on the region I suppose) 

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On 2019-04-14 at 4:27 AM, WhiteMarker said:

Oh look... another one of those people that didn't know the forum has a search function... 

Its comments like these that make the warframe community unique...

Unfortunately its the same reason as why the founder pack, prime accessories and auction house wont be easily accessible, majority of the warframe community just simply don't support for weird, mostly illogical reasons. 

You can't make everyone happy, yes auctions houses does make the majority of peoples lives easier, prices will be more transparent, but people don't want to take the chance for inflation, super low and super high prices. But warframe most likely would not have that issue, because if it is platinum only nothing should change all that much. Add a tax and credit fee, limit the amount of stuff you can put up or implement price controls mechanics.

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On 2019-04-16 at 10:00 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

An auction house makes the supply go up because people don't need to be online. Demand doesn't simultaneously rise because purchasers would still have to meet all of the requirements.

Why are you assuming that the auction house necessarily works in this manner? Warframe is unlike most games, so of course the auction house itself has to be unique from other games as well if it's implemented. DE could force players to have to be online in order for their sell/buy offers to be seen in the auction house. However, players could simply afk while online, which they already do in trade chat by spamming it with macro trade statements. I've seen macro messages in trade chat saying they are afk at the moment and will reply back later. So, imo, it doesn't matter either way in the first place because players can simply exploit the online/offline system itself, with or without auction houses.

On 2019-04-16 at 10:00 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

That's why we would expect the prices to crash. Literally the only things that might escape that outcome are the godroll rivens, as each is unique, so it's pretty unlikely to have much competition. 

This can happen in an auction house, with certain limited features, economy, too.

On 2019-04-16 at 10:00 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Now you might figure, price drops on most items, but then there's more purchases, so it evens out.... Except that's not how it works. In this game we only need one of most items. After that, nothing degrades, nothing needs repairs, there's no artificial inflation of demand, so no demand over time we don't need to buy another copy.

This is a fact that we lack daily sinks in the game; however, we have a third party auction house system for mainly tradeable items besides rivens. Yet, no one is criticizing that warframe.market, an auction house fundamentally, is having a negative impact on the current economy. However, some folks are starting to complain about rivens now...hmm, I wonder why?

I honestly see no problem if we keep warframe.market website the way it is and have a small ingame auction house with many limited features for just riven mods. Most folks that argue against riven mod auction houses simply want the potential to get a good riven cheaply, in my opinion, since most riven sellers nowadays get impatience, especially after the riven disposition nerfs, except the ones that don't really play the game and spam macros in trade chat all day while afk.

 

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2 hours ago, CrystalSpark said:

Why are you assuming that the auction house necessarily works in this manner? Warframe is unlike most games, so of course the auction house itself has to be unique from other games as well if it's implemented. DE could force players to have to be online in order for their sell/buy offers to be seen in the auction house. However, players could simply afk while online, which they already do in trade chat by spamming it with macro trade statements. I've seen macro messages in trade chat saying they are afk at the moment and will reply back later. So, imo, it doesn't matter either way in the first place because players can simply exploit the online/offline system itself, with or without auction houses.

Common sense. Especially since that's how auction houses typically work. Even if we alter what an auction house is, we end up with warframe.market, which I understand had exactly the same impact on prices when it came along. 

Also, you're looking at those macros and saying "hey this automates the game for individual players". Okay, wanna take a guess as to how sophisticated they can be before DE takes a dim view? Because that's what happens to scripts that automate the game too much for people. Next time you see that, might be worth it to screenshot it. 

2 hours ago, CrystalSpark said:

This can happen in an auction house, with certain limited features, economy, too.

Limited or not, increased supply with constant demand = reduced prices. Rivens are one of the things that being unique will not be in super high supply. Everything else.... 

2 hours ago, CrystalSpark said:

This is a fact that we lack daily sinks in the game; however, we have a third party auction house system for mainly tradeable items besides rivens. Yet, no one is criticizing that warframe.market, an auction house fundamentally, is having a negative impact on the current economy. However, some folks are starting to complain about rivens now...hmm, I wonder why?

People have complained about the Riven prices for a long long time, and I've personally seen complaints about warframe.market from people who decided that people are using it to scam them out of their valuable items by putting up prices that are too cheap. 

The recent spat of riven disposition changes has probably reminded people that items they're overpaying for are not set in stone. 

2 hours ago, CrystalSpark said:

I honestly see no problem if we keep warframe.market website the way it is and have a small ingame auction house with many limited features for just riven mods. Most folks that argue against riven mod auction houses simply want the potential to get a good riven cheaply, in my opinion, since most riven sellers nowadays get impatience, especially after the riven disposition nerfs, except the ones that don't really play the game and spam macros in trade chat all day while afk.

 

Yeah no. Still not a grand idea for the reasons already given. 

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10 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Also, you're looking at those macros and saying "hey this automates the game for individual players". Okay, wanna take a guess as to how sophisticated they can be before DE takes a dim view? Because that's what happens to scripts that automate the game too much for people. Next time you see that, might be worth it to screenshot it. 

I didn't understand this part very well. Are you skeptical that folks are actually using macros in trade chat or think the sophisticated macros are a separate problem?

10 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Limited or not, increased supply with constant demand = reduced prices. Rivens are one of the things that being unique will not be in super high supply. Everything else.... 

Rivens have the same flaw as TVs, once you get the one you wanted, you only need one of them...

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5 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

I didn't understand this part very well. Are you skeptical that folks are actually using macros in trade chat or think the sophisticated macros are a separate problem?

DE has indicated that any macros that play the game for you are a problem in their eyes. I'd think that what you described might be crossing the line, especially if it negatively impacts others as it seems to have done to you. 

5 minutes ago, CrystalSpark said:

Rivens have the same flaw as TVs, once you get the one you wanted, you only need one of them...

Do you have any idea how many times I've bought a new TV and gotten rid of the old one? 

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

DE has indicated that any macros that play the game for you are a problem in their eyes. I'd think that what you described might be crossing the line, especially if it negatively impacts others as it seems to have done to you. 

Okay, I guess I'll try to report them next time when they advertised they are afk while posting trade offers in trade chat, thank you for the heads up. Or I might even post a forum thread post about it if I feel like it...

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Do you have any idea how many times I've bought a new TV and gotten rid of the old one? 

The point is, you need only one riven for each weapon, if you need to replace it, you either didn't buy the perfect riven for your build in the first place or you are basically doing rivens wrong.

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On 2019-04-20 at 7:21 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I support the idea of an Auction house (or marketplace, I am not nitpicking on the Core mechanics) 

I see some concerns that I am condensing here:

1) DE will lose profit - probably, but if a Plat tax is implemented they will have a steady sink (maybe have a minimum order value of 20p or something) which will in the long run be better than plat being shared within players.

2) Bots will corner the market - captcha or some other authentication method when making purchases. Also EULA does not allow you to use bots for gaining unfair advantages. 

3) value of items will drop - yes, but will reach a stable plateau depending on demand and supply, rare rivens will still have a good price but you will now have a choice and can compare. Common items and mods will probably be fixed at minimum value (already mentioned there should be minimum value so the percentages for tax make sense) 

4) I will not be able to sell something for exorbitant amounts to unsuspecting players that don't know better - yeah, no need to add anything to this statement its pretty much true. 

5) there are already external sites - that's good, less conceptualization to develop it in game. 

6) DE doesn't want to - DE changes its mind regularly. It is important that we are heard so they can take our opinions into account, that is the whole concept of feedback. If there was a megathread for auction house arguments I would agree with others that said you should search before starting a new topic. But since there isn't one I will support whenever I see such topics come up

 

 

The current trade system in game is very bare bones, and if DE does not wish to change it it is their game and their choice, but I would personally love it if they did as staring at trade chat and hoping to get a hit is highly unlikely (also depends on the region I suppose) 

Pretty much this. And I also think that, from a legal point of view, the regulation of an Auction house could be complicated.

So basically it's "easier" and "cheaper" for them to do nothing, and I think that it's the main reason, everything else being corporate talk.

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Can someone explain to me why everyone seems to believe that prices will crash if DE were to implement a sensible trading system? Yes, a larger volume of trading has the potential to bring more supply from people who wouldn't have sold their items previously, but it also brings more demand from people who wouldn't have bothered before. A larger throughput is also harder to manipulate as each player's individual input is diminished in proportion to the whole, thus making prices both more stable and more reliably set by a supply/demand dynamic. The practices people fear - botting, price dumping, flipping, cartels - become less impactful the more active the market is.

There's also a basic aspect of economics that seems to be overlooked here - as prices drop, availability increases and shopping becomes more convenient, people overall spend more. They might be spending less per item, but they spend more overall. A convenient market full of cheap goods is a pleasant place to browse for things you want, even if you don't necessarily need. An insular market that goes through a bunch of hoops, waiting, external sites and unreliably high prices, by contrast, is a place one goes to only as a last resort for items either too difficult or tedious to earn in-game.

More trade generally leads to more money exchanging hands in the long run.

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2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Can someone explain to me why everyone seems to believe that prices will crash if DE were to implement a sensible trading system? Yes, a larger volume of trading has the potential to bring more supply from people who wouldn't have sold their items previously, but it also brings more demand from people who wouldn't have bothered before.

The problem is that it does not increase demand. Sales won't go up significantly, only offers for sale. 

When everyone lists the same items that you only need one of, competitors will have to drop prices to guarantee a sale. There's always going to be someone just a little more desperate for the plat. Prices will plummet. We see this with every new item. The first few (when supply is low) sell for huge prices. After a day, when there are far more, the prices will have already tanked. After a week.... It's the same pattern, every single time. 

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

There's also a basic aspect of economics that seems to be overlooked here - as prices drop, availability increases and shopping becomes more convenient, people overall spend more. They might be spending less per item, but they spend more overall.

That only works once in warframe for most items. There's no repeat customers. Worse, remember that if this game follows the pattern of most f2p games, most people won't be spending cold, hard cash so where are your hypothetical buyers getting their plat from? Sales of items that you recognise would be selling for a lot less? If they have less to spend, they won't be able to go on the shopping spree you seem to think will be possible. They'll demand ever lower prices. 

The economy tanks. 

 

Common sense. 

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9 hours ago, CrystalSpark said:

The point is, you need only one riven for each weapon, if you need to replace it, you either didn't buy the perfect riven for your build in the first place or you are basically doing rivens wrong.

The point is that "perfect" rivens are exceedingly rare. We can't simply demand that one be made available when we choose to buy it. Or if we do want to go that route, we can expect a huge price tag. 

So we take the best that we can get at the time, eventually comes along that's a smidge better than the old one, and people with the surplus plat can snap it up, and resell the old one to recoup the plat they spent on it. There's no wear and tear, so barring a disposition change at that instant there's a good chance of being able to recoup all of the original price given patience. 

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So I saw a post about this on Facebook so I cant take full credit for the idea of changing parts of the trading system but for the most part this is my idea.

How many people thing swapping out the trading chat for an auction house type system would be a good idea? Have trading posts in the dojo be changes into access points for the auction house and some put in maroo's bazaar as well. The option to set up shop would be left in both the bazaar and dojos as well. I believe this would both help stabilize the trade market as well as remove quite a bit of toxicity involved in trading chat.

The auction house would also have 2 ways to list items. Buy now and bidding. The bidding would have a set time limit of course and all posts would have a set time limit before being sent back to the owner. The bidding section could have a buy now option attached to posts as well so if people really want it they could pay the bn price and pick it up immediately

I have seen other online games have these type of systems, which is what this idea is based off, and I think it could work well for warframe.

What are your thoughts?

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it's not gonna happen, they don't want you to passively make plat while you're away. getting plat 'for free' for a little effort is already very generous, not to mention the discounts on PC, getting it without any trouble whatsoever except going to a panel is a while different level 

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)Blade_runner4379 said:

What are your thoughts?

giphy.gif

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