P2W

[Gamma745]

1 minute ago, BLI7Z said:

I know that, and that is applicable in everything in life. The mind behind the equipment is what makes the equipment useful. But what about players that know their trade and tools and want more? It gets limited and starts to get unrewarding. 

Then you should've opened with that instead of accusing P2W. That just makes discussions goes weird.

[BLI7Z]

hace 12 minutos, Xzorn dijo:

Did you have a question?

Not a direct question, but wanted to start a discussion and externalize a lot of feelings and thoughts I've been having for a while. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, BLI7Z said:

Exactly. And I could actually see that after helping my grilfriend get to MR14, and buying plat for her, and helping her get all the stuff she wanted (by grinding and trading). After that I got again to the spot where I was before all that... having nothing to aspire to. And she got into my same spot after ONLY 1 month of hard gameplay...

You know there was a time when thieves wit was hard as hell to get...yet here we are and now I have had 1000s. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[BLI7Z]

hace 1 minuto, Gamma745 dijo:

Then you should've opened with that instead of accusing P2W. That just makes discussions goes weird.

Pay to Win ain't always getting stuff others can't if they don't pay... paying to win also means getting to the "end game" without actually playing a lot. At least that's what I think and feel. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

7 minutes ago, BLI7Z said:

Exactly. And I could actually see that after helping my grilfriend get to MR14, and buying plat for her, and helping her get all the stuff she wanted (by grinding and trading). After that I got again to the spot where I was before all that... having nothing to aspire to. And she got into my same spot after ONLY 1 month of hard gameplay...

You know I have a 6 year old daughter, and today she went 10 min with Nova on a infested 6-8 level survival. And got some pretty good rare mods I couldn't have gotten 2 years ago. If you want challenge this game really isn't for you. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Rekkou]

7 minutes ago, BLI7Z said:

Actually, the problem is that what I had to get with lots of effort and enjoyment when I had no money... I can have it with no effort and no enjoyment while having money to spend. And also, after getting a hold on the stuff I want... there are no more rewards, progression gets totally capped.

 

Well yeah. That's like common sense, anything has a limit. You can't just expect to do something infinitely and then new rewards will be infinitely given to you out of nowhere. Most other games you're simply rewarded with ending or scores.

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 minutes ago, BLI7Z said:

"end game"

Where is that in WAITframe?

[DL3MA]

Really depends on how much of a whale you can be.

[-Dabi]

There is no winning. Only almost 50 million losers.

The goal of the game is to play/enjoy and also progress as your own rate. The game doesn't force you nor puts you in a situation where you have to must pay to advance. No such thing.

Even if you spend $$$$, you won't be any better than a F2P player. Sure you can get more stuff in a shorter time but (for me) the experience and the journey is what counts. 

The DE system is good. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Join a clan with challenging rank ups where money won't save you. Then you'll be able to challenge yourself.

[Owlski]

I don't personally think this discussion belongs in this topic, as if you wanted to just discuss the nature of how you see such aspects of the game, it'd of probably been better suited for General Discussion.

That being said;

1 hour ago, BLI7Z said:

The problem is that when you get a hold of everything, and it feels so easy to get everything... it becomes something unrewarding, something trivial, something like is like a walk in the park. I always loved Warframe 'cause I felt like I had real challenges. Now I fell like I am going for a walk in some sunny and beautiful place instead of getting into the maws of hell itself. 

I agree with you in the fact that (if you had the money/time) to buy everything you ever wanted in game, that it'd lead to a very unrewarding and/or trivial feeling. In the end, it's ultimately up to the players choice if they wish to partake in doing so. 
While I get such aspects may deter or discourage you. What you considered value for you (or others) time, others consider it more valuable to skip some of the grind. 

However, bear in mind not everything can be bought with plat. Things like Mastery Rank (which is required in order to even use some weapons & frames), and unlocking a good chunk of elements and key features the game offers once you go through the quests still require time and effort on the players end to complete and go through. (can't even buy the regular/non-prime parts to even speed up a handful of those quests).
---------------
I think though; Rather than being disgruntled at how such a system can really ruin the player experience for others (especially newcomers), teach these players the value of working for such items over buying.
Afterall; Just cause you can use the system in such a way, doesn't mean you have to.
Warframe is a very open-ended game; Players can play how they want, and (essentially) be what they want.

As for challenge; 
While the game can allow you to be a heavily walking tank that soaks up damage, all the while you mow down hordes of enemies with your op Riven gun, you can also play the opposite. 
I personally don't run with weapons/frames simply cause they're the "meta" or just cause they're powerful, but I choose to run and play with weapons that personally cater to my playstyle, and what I personally enjoy. (it's how I've still managed to find enjoyment in this game after all these years)

If you find the game is starting to lack challenge, then perhaps break your current mold and challenge yourself.. 
Play different (even squishier) frames; Ones with different abilities that sound interesting, but you never fully considered. Play and experiment with different weapons (warframes list of weapons are huge). Find weapons that you like and (when you do) maybe then consider getting a riven for it, just to make it more effective/useful. 

This game isn't simply about building for the next biggest/strongest thing. It can be, and certainly some play it this way...
..but sometimes you can learn a lot from this game by taking a back seat to all of that, and simply finding what you wish to achieve. What you want.
The choice is always there.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Owlski
Sorry for the ramble~

[Mez999]

1 hour ago, BLI7Z said:

Pay to Win ain't always getting stuff others can't if they don't pay... paying to win also means getting to the "end game" without actually playing a lot. At least that's what I think and feel. 

I think people are getting mixed up because you’re using the term “pay to win” incorrectly. 

Pay to win implies that there is an objective and that the objective is so difficult or out of reach that payment is the only method to reach it.

Warframe is a “pay to rush”. All paying money does is allow you to rush to the objective, not win the objective. And it is questionable what the objective actually is in Warframe as “endgame” is player dependent. 

Their business model is very clever as it allows for both a crazy grind like a normal looter shooter and allows you to support the game by buying an in game currency to rush / bypass a particular grind. I support the game through buying small amounts of plat when a discount comes up - even when I now don’t need any. I’ll spend this on slots and other non-essential QOL / cosmetics. 

Where is the hardcore challenge if you have the money to wipe out the game? There isn’t. But that isn’t the game’s fault. 

[MorradiX]

Yea,you can buy good gear...but what exactly do you "win"  ? 

 

I have fun when I play the game ...that's win enough for me  🙂

[-CdG-Zilchy]

You want challenge? I'll give you some. I'll start you off with our lowest tier(easiest) clan rankups.

- complete a fissure mission with an opened relic in 1 minute or less solo.

- complete orokin derelict assassination in 2 minutes or less solo

- capture a hydrolyst in under 12 minutes

- craft 250 of each type of pad ie energy, health, ammo, shield and also ciphers.

- complete a  2 hour MOT survival mission.

Good luck using p2w to do those, have fun.

P.S. this is how you create challenge after being geared, you decide it yourself.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Zilchy

[SteelOverseer666]

I am pretty sure this should be in "General" not "Players Helping Players".

As for the topic of "pay to win" in this coop game, I dont think it deserves to be entertained.

Also, You can stand by your weird definition of pay to win if you really want but just be conscious that it does not align with the rest of the gaming industries definition.

[Veridian]

4 hours ago, BLI7Z said:

Pay to Win ain't always getting stuff others can't if they don't pay... paying to win also means getting to the "end game" without actually playing a lot. At least that's what I think and feel. 

I've red all your points and while you are right that you can buy a lot of powerful items and clear the game quickly there are also some things you should note:

You are looking at this from the prism of a vet who started anew. In any situation a new player will never have an idea of what to buy. It will take him another 3 months to understand why the OP frame he got doesn't work the same for him.
The beauty of games like this is actually playing towards your goal, so using plat to get items is not P2W, it's shortening the experience.
Warframe has no "win" condition.
No matter how much you pay, some things you can't reasonably get with plat and those tend to be on the favorable side of balance - all modular items, most pets, operator.
In fact the operator can be considered the best measure of progress, since you can't buy your way through the focus.
Games like this, esp f2p have a system like this, for the impatient, you just don't need to be one of them, the journey is what's important.
 

[Mr.SpookSpook]

P2W complaint + PvE game = pointless dumb thread

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

9 hours ago, BLI7Z said:

At first, I convinced myself that Waframe ain't pay to win. Now I know it is.

With enough money you can buy just anything (except the gameplay experience).

So... if I have money and want to put it into this game, where is the actual hardcore challenge? Not even the grind is a challenge, only long and boring timewalls. 

I end up playing games that are actually competitive PvP FPS at the end of the day...

Warframe feels like some kind of relaxing place... but a long time ago it felt like a good dark place to call home... 

There seem to be several things here:

• Pay to WIN - implies you can win. there is no winning in warframe - only losing.
• competitive PvP - in Warframe? if you are looking for PvP, you are in the wrong game.  Sure there is a game mode for pvp - but what % actually do it? and its just as much cheese as the rest of warframe combat.
• challenge - once you've been playing a while, there is no challenging content in warframe - unless you make it yourself - speed running, slogging through ESO solo, unequipping mods, using trash weapons when you have better ones etc... its a farming/collecting game once you've cleared the star chart.

Nothing in warframe is pay to WIN - maybe pay to acquire so you don't have to grind, but that's it.

 

[Genesix6]

In fashion it's kinda make sense, since almost every tennogen trivialize skin that was made by DE. But I'm okay at supporting the creator of the tennogen

[Kerthis]

Warframe is a great game and I love it since 2013 I think. However the possibility of being able to buy almost everything that should be some kind of an achievement or goal feels bad and takes away from the (one might call elitist) feeling of a value of the items. It's more or less as if u would be able to buy every item in World of Warcraft. Imagine, one guy working his ass off doing weekly raids, trying to get that item with 0.1% drop chance and another just drows his wallet and pays $20. One might call it "paying for convinience" and it trully is that. But then all of the items have no real value, no sense of accomplishment - seeing a guy with great mods or hard to get warframe means nothing as it could be paid for.

I admit I bought many things for plat to skip the grind and I accept the game as it is focusing more on the lore and the fun gameplay. But it would be so much better if the game offered cosmetics only in the game shop. And then all the grinds, all the items, all the mods, all the parts could be rightly adjusted to have this process of getting them not as much as a chore but as a real accomplishment with difficulity lying not in "timewall" but in actual challenge.

[o0Despair0o]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb BLI7Z:

At first, I convinced myself that Waframe ain't pay to win. Now I know it is

 

vor 9 Stunden schrieb BLI7Z:

game that I've been playing for some years

 

Clearly you've spent most of that AFK'ing in your Orbiter.

[wargthewarg]

I've sunk some money into this game and I kinda understand this view. Although I wouldn't really call it P2W.

The way things have been for a while with DE putting buyable stuff like frames behind their new content to force engagement. It basically means that if I want to use my bought plat to get the new frames from the get go I'm shooting myself into the leg because I have no reason to play the new content.

I stopped buying the prime items (for rl $ or via trading) because I found myself not having anything to do. It's pretty much the only thing I do so I even don't radshare to make it last a little longer. Or play Eidolons for arcanes now and then instead of buying it. I could complete it with plat but the game has so little to offer if you skip all the grind.

I'm at a point where I get bored super easily and I think a part of it is the fact there's little reason for me to enjoy a lot of the content. Sp yes you can get almost everything with money (the P2W argument I guess) but it makes the game insanely boring and pointless if you don't play chunks of it as F2P.

[Entity--]

all of you can hate me for what I'm about to say,but if u want challenge and hardcore go play D2

[Kerthis]

Guys if u think that ability to buy an item for real money isnt affecting the gameplay design in any way then u r horribly wrong. It has everything to do with it. Not so long ago there was a real talk about "paying for convenience" in single player oriented games. It was brought up how designer has to include gameplay mechanics that will incentivise a player to pay for some convenience. It is funny how on one hand people almost scream left and right about some tedious grinds in WF and on the other people talk about being able to buy stuff for plat. And almost no one makes the connection here.. 🙂

[Firetempest]

As with other MMOs. You can go buy a maxed character illegally. The most epic gear, the best mounts etc etc. Watch you die to some trash mobs because you still don't know how to play.

Same things here really. But you can legally buy meta gear and trivialize the majority of a looter shooter climb. But will that keep someone from dieing? All it does is objectively ruin the experience. Though, if someone is willing to do that then quit. Did DE lose a customer? They sold a bit of plat. Did we lose a valuable community member? They didn't want to really participate.

It's not up to us to determine someone's fun. The only thing we can do is give them our opinion, and maybe a lession on what the term pay to win means.