Simulacrum takes too long to unlock [new player experience]

[BadgerDrool]

So I'm starting to get into endgame and am aware DE is looking to improve new player experience. Given I've, mostly, recently gone through being a new player. I'd like to provide some feedback on how Simulacrum could be an excellent place to adjust for new players.

Simple put: Tiered simulacrum access. With initial access being early and cheap.

Basically, if you (DE) are currently planning to release an improved Simulacrum that allows players to change tilesets and adjust forma on weapons/weapon levels more finely. Make the current version of sim available for 2k rep or free on completing quest. Then have the new improved simulacrum be the 50k rep unlock.

This is predicated on whether there is current development plans for giving players more stuff in simulacrum. However, earlier access to a basic simulacrum is something I can argue for newer players.

That arguement is: new players will make fewer build/investment mistakes if they can test stuff out themselves more easily. Investment mistakes lead to frustration and possible rage quits. Less frustration, better player retention.

[Omega-ZX]

Play the Game and not the Simulacrum.

vor 9 Minuten schrieb BadgerDrool:

That arguement is: new players will make fewer build/investment mistakes if they can test stuff out themselves more easily. Investment mistakes lead to frustration and possible rage quits. Less frustration, better player retention.

Nice try. Everyone is learning by doing. Step by step. Like reallife. And a wrong decision is a step for next time doing the right. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Omega-ZX

[justin0620]

14 minutes ago, BadgerDrool said:

That arguement is: new players will make fewer build/investment mistakes if they can test stuff out themselves more easily. Investment mistakes lead to frustration and possible rage quits. Less frustration, better player retention.

You can always google or watch youtube video for a build before you actaully try to maximize a weapon's potential.

[BadgerDrool]

3 hours ago, Omega-ZX said:

Play the Game and not the Simulacrum.

Nice try. Everyone is learning by doing. Step by step. Like reallife. And a wrong decision is a step for next time doing the right. 

I did. Not like changes would help me at all at this point. I'm clearly just past the new player phase. Let me tell you what major mistake I made? Too much time spent doing daily synthesis targets. Way too inefficient. I've barely used simulacrum. Though it was helpful for figuring out the more complex warframe abilities and getting used to their controls.

 

2 hours ago, justin0620 said:

You can always google or watch youtube video for a build before you actaully try to maximize a weapon's potential.

Those are of limited use. Warframe players tend to present the most optimal possible build. They rarely show 0 forma or "work in progress" builds. They also rarely explain the basic logic behind the pieces of the build. Instead they present a cool build and show off what it can do.

This is because those "maximized weapon potential" builds are oriented for veteran players. For whom the basics of damage are an assumed thing.

It is very easy to underestimate just how little resources (especially forma/potatos/exilus) a new player has access too. To be frank, a new player grabbing a meta weapon and slapping 6 forma + potato into it is a gross over commitment for them. It's actively bad for them to have tried to mimic a veteran because their resource supply is much lower.

Consider Atterax. With maiming strike, arguably the best melee weapon in the game. Well what happens if a new player blindly copies an Atterax build but only has some of the pieces? What if they don't have maiming strike? What if DE's melee changes makes this build moot? Suddenly leaping to invest forma into it was an outright mistake.

Know what a new player may be doing? Not looking up guides, coming to forums, or talking to anyone. They may be just playing the game and trying to figure out if they should equip a cold mod or impact dmg mod.

Yes, you win some, you lose some. However, on the subject of making new player experience better. Allowing new players to run into less "noob traps" and have more agency to figure out how the game works on their own are worthy goals.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

New players do not need the simulacrum as they have next to no frames or mods to start off with and it would be rather pointless. the main thing new players should focus on is doing the star chart and only after worry about the extras...

[justin0620]

13 minutes ago, BadgerDrool said:

Consider Atterax. With maiming strike, arguably the best melee weapon in the game. Well what happens if a new player blindly copies an Atterax build but only has some of the pieces? What if they don't have maiming strike? What if DE's melee changes makes this build moot? Suddenly leaping to invest forma into it was an outright mistake.

Isn't that what the game was about? Find out what is meta, what works on you, what your playstyle is and max the equipment that you like?

95% of the resources can get straight from plat, so if a player is willing to spend some plat maiming strike can be acquire easily. Also, You should never be afraid of your weapon will turn to garbage, what is meta now won't be meta forever. I spend 6 forma on my tonkor and I got 130,000+ kills with it. Has it been nerf to the ground? Yes. Atleast, I abuse it and make some good use of it while it is viable.

Now it is just a trophy.

[Omega-ZX]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb BadgerDrool:

Consider Atterax. With maiming strike, arguably the best melee weapon in the game.

You are a troll, right? And without meme strike? Is it a bad weapon? No. A new player dont need meme strike. What a new player need is experience - not in Simulacrum. Earth, Venus and Merkur are the beginner-friendly planets to learn the game. After this they have enough experience to know how to mod a weapon.

A Newbie need a Zaw (polearm or staves), a Catchmoon and a Helios. No Simulacrum needed. For what? Headshots on stillstanding npcs?

[BadgerDrool]

Ok, this has turned into a bit of a tangent debate. Rather then addressing if the idea would be a net positive/negative to new player experience. The arguements I'm responding to appear to be putting forth a view that simulacrum is unnecessary to the current new player experience. To clarify, I've been hearing that DE is intending to adjust new player experience and my suggestion is heavily predicated on that. My goal here was to present an idea that could help new players learn key info within the confines of the game.

Further clarification in case you've forgotten/have not gone through fresh star chart recently. In order to do Synthesis tasks and thus rank up Cephalon Simaris to get Simulacrum. A tenno needs to have completed The New Strange, and Stolen Dreams. New Strange requires Europa Junction. Stolen dreams requires Phobos junction. Note: Europa junction also requires Teshub (void) via Phobos.

A new player working through starchart cannot get Simaris rep until they've gotten to Jupiter. Once they have Simaris unlocked, they'd still need to dedicate their first 50k standing to simulacrum. Which is several days of effort that may see them through far more of the star chart.

If DE gave players who finish The New Strange access to a basic Simulacrum for free or reduced the rep price to something like 5k. These "new players" would have still put several hours into the game before being able to access it. They'd have access to several frames (via farm) as well as both open world content.
 

1 hour ago, Omega-ZX said:

You are a troll, right? And without meme strike? Is it a bad weapon? No. A new player dont need meme strike. What a new player need is experience - not in Simulacrum. Earth, Venus and Merkur are the beginner-friendly planets to learn the game. After this they have enough experience to know how to mod a weapon.

A Newbie need a Zaw (polearm or staves), a Catchmoon and a Helios. No Simulacrum needed. For what? Headshots on stillstanding npcs?

No Atterax isn't a bad weapon without meme strike. As you correctly state: A newbie should get a zaw. My point is that such a video that goes "Atterax is the best melee weapon and here's the build. Here's it in action". Is factually correct, but also doesn't state the why it's best. It doesn't inform a new player that you need maiming strike or Atterax is one of several good melee weapons.

Change perspectives for a second. Do you think a new player should use their first/free potato on an Atterax? What should they put it on? Atterax is MR 2 btw.

 

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

New players do not need the simulacrum as they have next to no frames or mods to start off with and it would be rather pointless. the main thing new players should focus on is doing the star chart and only after worry about the extras...

I've addressed the timing of "new player" above. So by the time a player could possibly have access to simulacrum, right now. They could farm Rhino, Hydroid, Excalibur, Mag, Frost, Valkyr, Nova, Gara, and Garuda. I'm not double checking all their material requirements. I believe Garuda is the only one worth cutting due to rep requirements for materials.

 

 

2 hours ago, justin0620 said:

Isn't that what the game was about? Find out what is meta, what works on you, what your playstyle is and max the equipment that you like?

95% of the resources can get straight from plat, so if a player is willing to spend some plat maiming strike can be acquire easily. Also, You should never be afraid of your weapon will turn to garbage, what is meta now won't be meta forever. I spend 6 forma on my tonkor and I got 130,000+ kills with it. Has it been nerf to the ground? Yes. Atleast, I abuse it and make some good use of it while it is viable.

Now it is just a trophy.

There will always be a divide between a new player and an ongoing player. More pronounced is the divide between a new player that quits and an ongoing player. Sometimes changes, and suggestions for changes, are intended to increase the total pool of new players that stick around. Some of those players would prefer figuring stuff out themselves to "netdecking" and having someone else do the "work" for them.

Personally, I keep in mind that warframe meta's are oriented around optimizing for time usage. That the gaps between "can technically do stuff", and "can do stuff easily" and "can do stuff really easily and quickly"  all exist and are quite pronounced.

As for the plat comment. "Pay up or give up" would be a very bad philosophy to approach a new player experience with. So I strongly feel that it should not be included in such a conversation. (aside from telling them to spend their starter plat on slots)

I thank you all for engaging me. But I'm being forced into a weird state of devil's advocate by the direction this has taken. I'm not sure how to feel about it and strongly considered not replying at all. However, you gave me some time and I can give some back.

Edited April 15, 2019 by BadgerDrool

[IceFire909]

unless you're spending 2+ forma on a build, just swap the mods around and test them in a mission

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

New player experience has nothing to do with simulacrum.

I can't even imagine that new players even know if it's existence unless they're watching YouTube videos yelling to imitate others. 

With that said, the instant gratification generation strikes again, claiming they deserve simulacrum for free for doing nothing. They're is no harm in having to save up standing for it. You just want it, just because. Hiding behind the "new player experience" excuse. Just as you've grinded for simulacrum, everyone else can do the same.

[(PSN)nekokujo]

15 hours ago, BadgerDrool said:

So I'm starting to get into endgame and am aware DE is looking to improve new player experience. Given I've, mostly, recently gone through being a new player. I'd like to provide some feedback on how Simulacrum could be an excellent place to adjust for new players.

Simple put: Tiered simulacrum access. With initial access being early and cheap.

Basically, if you (DE) are currently planning to release an improved Simulacrum that allows players to change tilesets and adjust forma on weapons/weapon levels more finely. Make the current version of sim available for 2k rep or free on completing quest. Then have the new improved simulacrum be the 50k rep unlock.

This is predicated on whether there is current development plans for giving players more stuff in simulacrum. However, earlier access to a basic simulacrum is something I can argue for newer players.

That arguement is: new players will make fewer build/investment mistakes if they can test stuff out themselves more easily. Investment mistakes lead to frustration and possible rage quits. Less frustration, better player retention.

Seems to be a lot of negativity in reaction to this suggestion, but I’m not sure why. I don’t think changing simulacrum access would have any appreciable effect on player retention, but I agree it is a good idea to have it open from Simaris’ quest onwards. The simulacrum is a practice mode. Unlocking a practice mode for new players is not “instant gratification.” It’s a basic utility that can be found in games going back decades now (most notably in fighting games but also in RTS, city builders, etc.)...

[sam686]

I believe the biggest problem for new players is a tiny daily limit of 1000 for new players at mastery rank 0. If Simulacrum access key cost 50000, this might take 50 days to unlock it, if they stay at mastery rank 0.

Synthesis target, when fully completed can give more Simaris standing with rewards, bypassing any daily limit, but is mostly useless when target is on a planet new players have not unlocked yet. Worst, the game does not show where this synthesis target is found in. Which mission for this synthesis target?

[BadgerDrool]

6 hours ago, (PS4)nekokujo said:

Seems to be a lot of negativity in reaction to this suggestion, but I’m not sure why. I don’t think changing simulacrum access would have any appreciable effect on player retention, but I agree it is a good idea to have it open from Simaris’ quest onwards. The simulacrum is a practice mode. Unlocking a practice mode for new players is not “instant gratification.” It’s a basic utility that can be found in games going back decades now (most notably in fighting games but also in RTS, city builders, etc.)...

Thank you. Was wondering if it was just me.

6 hours ago, sam686 said:

I believe the biggest problem for new players is a tiny daily limit of 1000 for new players at mastery rank 0. If Simulacrum access key cost 50000, this might take 50 days to unlock it, if they stay at mastery rank 0.

Synthesis target, when fully completed can give more Simaris standing with rewards, bypassing any daily limit, but is mostly useless when target is on a planet new players have not unlocked yet. Worst, the game does not show where this synthesis target is found in. Which mission for this synthesis target?

That's basically what I was talking about. Maybe I was too indirect. Given progress in starchart, we may be able to assume a MR 6ish player is about earliest for Simulacrum. That's still about week of maxing cap. Though synthesis daily turn  in may be able to go over daily cap (the 5k,7.5k,10k reward when you talk to simaris).

There is kind of an issue where the 50k for Simulacrum is competing with stuff that raises your efficiency at doing daily synthesis. The scanner mods. So should a new player unlock simulacrum or get faster scans first? I'm not sure that should be the choice.

My thought process is players would love a more indepth and option filled simulacrum. If DE ever delivers such a thing, why not give players "immediate" access to a basic one?

[AKTKWNG]

I have no idea why there are a bunch of negative comments here. I always thought that having early simulacrum would be a universally supported idea. I'd even go so far as to say that the simulacrum should be unlocked by default as a ship module together with the rest of the ship parts during the tutorial quests. A game having its training mode as an unlockable is UNHEARD OF in most other games and genres.

[Omega-ZX]

My problem is... Everyone can do this in the same way. Farm 50k and buy Simulacrum. Call me a real reason and not a nonsense "beginner need to test" if they use that just a few times.

vor 10 Stunden schrieb sam686:

I believe the biggest problem for new players is a tiny daily limit of 1000 for new players at mastery rank 0. If Simulacrum access key cost 50000, this might take 50 days to unlock it, if they stay at mastery rank 0.

Really... Waste 50 days for farming Simaris reputation? How unrealistic is that? A new player need higher MR for everything. What does a new player? Levelling equipment.

[Xzorn]

Even Veterans don't test in the Simulacrum properly. It's a pretty useless tool if the player doesn't already have good knowledge of the game and know what they're looking at or looking for. I'd almost wager the Simulacrum does more harm than good just based on how often it's misused. The release of Adaptation was full of bad testing.

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Even Veterans don't test in the Simulacrum properly. It's a pretty useless tool if the player doesn't already have good knowledge of the game and know what they're looking at or looking for. I'd almost wager the Simulacrum does more harm than good just based on how often it's misused. The release of Adaptation was full of bad testing.

This is so very true.  I first noticed that the Simulacrum wasn't fully optimal for all testing was when I realized that syndicate procs don't happen in it at all.  Another was that the enemies don't always behave the same as they do in missions.  Knowing this I now only use the Simulacrum to get an idea of how something works/behaves and then do more testing/observations in actual missions.  Testing in actual missions is when you find out things like Argon Scope just isn't practical on most bows.  

[Autongnosis]

il y a 31 minutes, DatDarkOne a dit :

This is so very true.  I first noticed that the Simulacrum wasn't fully optimal for all testing was when I realized that syndicate procs don't happen in it at all.  Another was that the enemies don't always behave the same as they do in missions.  Knowing this I now only use the Simulacrum to get an idea of how something works/behaves and then do more testing/observations in actual missions.  Testing in actual missions is when you find out things like Argon Scope just isn't practical on most bows.  

Simulacrum is useful to check damage and to check some mods basically. Some people to tests thinking it relates in any way to actual missions, which is ridiculous. 

[Xzorn]

46 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is so very true.  I first noticed that the Simulacrum wasn't fully optimal for all testing was when I realized that syndicate procs don't happen in it at all.  Another was that the enemies don't always behave the same as they do in missions.  Knowing this I now only use the Simulacrum to get an idea of how something works/behaves and then do more testing/observations in actual missions.  Testing in actual missions is when you find out things like Argon Scope just isn't practical on most bows.  

 

Some things don't work or scale exactly the same as missions. Auras stop working or don't work at all and a lot of mods and Focus passives will stop working till you leave and go back in to get them working again. It can still be useful but has to be a controlled testing situation. The Inaros Adaptation videos for instance were triggering me cuz it was done so poorly and slanted outside anything remotely realistic.

In the end with the "typical content" of Warframe I don't even see much purpose for it. Games use parsing and test dummies for Raids n such to min/max potential for difficult content which Warframe doesn't have at easy access. People prolly spend more time testing things than they do pushing the gear so the testing matters.

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

On 2019-04-14 at 9:04 PM, BadgerDrool said:

That arguement is: new players will make fewer build/investment mistakes if they can test stuff out themselves more easily. Investment mistakes lead to frustration and possible rage quits. Less frustration, better player retention.

I really agree with this one. It’s hard to get a handle on how the mechanics work and the simulacrum would be a great way for new players to experiment. 

Maybe break it out into chunks. You can only buy a planets worth of enemies at a time, and the first planet only costs one daily simaris target with subsequent planets all adding up to the total current cost.

[BadgerDrool]

On 2019-04-16 at 2:28 AM, Omega-ZX said:

My problem is... Everyone can do this in the same way. Farm 50k and buy Simulacrum. Call me a real reason and not a nonsense "beginner need to test" if they use that just a few times.

Really... Waste 50 days for farming Simaris reputation? How unrealistic is that? A new player need higher MR for everything. What does a new player? Levelling equipment.

Again. I'm not saying "Hey DE do this right now". I'm saying "Hey DE if you're currently working on new player experience tweaks. Consider adjustments here too".

I also never said need. Need is a very strong word here and I don't agree with its use. DE doesn't need to do this. New players do not need this. Despite not needing it, it would be a net positive to new player experience to have.

 

21 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

In the end with the "typical content" of Warframe I don't even see much purpose for it. Games use parsing and test dummies for Raids n such to min/max potential for difficult content which Warframe doesn't have at easy access. People prolly spend more time testing things than they do pushing the gear so the testing matters.

This line of conversation involving Xzorn, DatDarkOne, and Autongnosis is strong counter argument. It is true that the "benefits" to a new player may be limited to only checking a couple mods in an underpowered build, or checking two weapons against each other in a situation that does not fully reflect in mission variables.

However, my counter argument is that what matters is frustration vent. Some players would realize something is off, try to figure out what, but give up if the attempts to test hit a wall. The more of their effort that does not bear any results the more likely they are to just give up entirely.

Which in the case of a new player starting to hit the harder star chart content (which is arguably around saturn aka right after you'd get simaris rep properly available) is a plausible timing for them to start reconsidering equipment decisions. If such a player is wondering why their +% punct set up isn't working right, is able to access damage tests, and see that the results are weird. They are more likely to continue the research into 3rd party sources. The key here is that when the start to get frustrated they have something they can do that provides more info then they had before.

Also 3rd party research can be totally worthless and frustrating for a good length of time. Search terms easily display results not geared to new players. How much time not playing the game, in order to figure out how to play the game, is each individual gamer willing to put in?

A lot of the early start chart is do-able solo, without asking for advice, and without properly using mods. This happens to teach very little about how to properly play the game. Granted many players, especially retained players, will do 3rd party research or have a friend to talk to.

For DE any change that raises % of retained players is a change to consider if they are currently working on improving new player experience. Even if that % is a low one.