PvE+PvP Players are leaving the game :(

[Kontrollo]

2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

What strawman?

"Players who aren't given infinite Plat are leaving the game. Players who can't build forts with stone are leaving the game."  <- Are you trying to say this isn't a strawman, or do you just not know what that term means.

 

Now I'm not that involved in the PvP side of things anymore to say if and how many of those guys are leaving. I can, however, say that it wouldn't surprise me. You know, seven months and all. And the guy who made this great clip hasn't posted anything anymore in a while, which was mentioned by someone I trust to have a bit of an idea. Hence: " to be fair, his sounds like one, too."

 

10 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

OP was saying this group was leaving the game. I am asking why should that matter? This can be done by showing the group is a sizable one or that the game and the players are worse off for having a small but noticeable group leave.

Justify PvP having more resources thrown at it. 

Well, there are PvP players playing this game, and PvP is being severely neglected. How is that not justification enough? Are you implying these people are somehow worth less than the rest?

And if that's not enough, take me. I'm mildly bored with the PvE side of the game and not happy with the state of PvP. I am actively participating in the game and on the forums, however, and trying to help people out here and there. If we continue that line of thought: Am I worth less, too?

[Kontrollo]

11 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Ah, you're going to through out accusations to support your stance, got it.  I actually thought you were a bit more level headed than that.

Either way, I've said my piece.  You choosing to infer something that isn't there isn't something I'm going to worry over.

Take it easy.

Uhm? I think I am level headed here.

You said: "De held a stance of no PvP when the game began and they've shown no interest in making PvP a real part of the game." but that is easily debunked.

We all have our biases, this is one of yours.

[Hobie-wan]

I enjoy Warframe because it doesn't force me into PVP. I have no desire play games against people that play something 23 hours a day and have the maps and key map points fully memorized so they can shoot me in the face the moment I spawn or hurl insults at me if I manage to get a kill or worse, win a round. I know not all PVP players are like that, but enough are, that once entrenched, they're unshakable and you're very likely to have at least one in every match in any online PVP game.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

11 hours ago, Aramil999 said:

So the point of this thread is to remind us about many many Video Games' Players who like to play PvP and PvE. Most people playing online games are PvP funs (LoL, Fortnite etc. are top played online games = fact) but from my experience many of them enjoy PvE games too. 

Sadly Warframe's PvP is left with all problems and generally speaking we have almost ONLY PvE 😞

That's why many PvP funs and PvP+PvE players have left or are leaving game.

Fix:

-Match Browser,

-All new weapons and Warframes are unusable in PvP (since Revenant), should be added,

-New players can't farm anything in PvP matches (almost 0 resources, almost 0 credits, almost 0 affinity etc.), it should be increased,

-Conclave skins for newer weapons (since newest weapon now is Soma....),

😞

Maybe Stalker Mode that most likely will get added in few mounths will come with at least few PvP fixes along. Let's hope that Stalker will bring some of this lost players back. 🙂

Warframe used to shut down Destiny big time with the highly effective war frame abilities and the 2 Raids. When the unholy trinity came to push for a nerf wave and to shut down our mechanic stacking meta tricks by calling it broken the game got watered down enough for people to return to Destiny, Overwatch, CoD, and Fortnite. Not being able to use weapons while on the K-Drive; but Fortnite can let people do a barrel roll on the hover board mid air 2 stories high from a boost and jump while quick scoping someone 3 football fields away is a different situation. The point is we used to have snowball fights in conclave and we could have had more fun options in the pvp area too; but we are distracted with the opinion of “everything needs rebalancing because it is too o p”. That opinion has put holes in the premise of the game’s mission like Swiss cheese. 

[fr4gb4ll]

13 hours ago, Aramil999 said:

So the point of this thread is to remind us about many many Video Games' Players who like to play PvP and PvE. Most people playing online games are PvP funs (LoL, Fortnite etc. are top played online games = fact) but from my experience many of them enjoy PvE games too. 

Sadly Warframe's PvP is left with all problems and generally speaking we have almost ONLY PvE 😞

That's why many PvP funs and PvP+PvE players have left or are leaving game.

Fix:

-Match Browser,

-All new weapons and Warframes are unusable in PvP (since Revenant), should be added,

-New players can't farm anything in PvP matches (almost 0 resources, almost 0 credits, almost 0 affinity etc.), it should be increased,

-Conclave skins for newer weapons (since newest weapon now is Soma....),

😞

Maybe Stalker Mode that most likely will get added in few mounths will come with at least few PvP fixes along. Let's hope that Stalker will bring some of this lost players back. 🙂

i disagree with what you call a 'fact' here - don't even know how you think you can tell, but except from this and the rather bad header you gave the thread i agree with you. but i also think thta warframe is not really suited as an PvP game - at least i never really could warm up to the PvP part even though i'm not bad at it. maybe it's because the totally different feeling i have when i use certain frames and weapons in PvE and then the same in PvP - it somehow turns me off when they feel so underwhelming there. i would like it more if there weren't two different sets of rules for both, but then again, playing the PvP part with a PvE loadout and doing the same amount of damage would be even worse (at least for most player who would be insta-killed every time they spawn). i think i would even enjoy PvP more when it were only the operators fighting each others ^^)

idk about this "stalker mode", maybe it will bring some fresh wind into PvP but it sure won't fix problems that are more technical in nature - that of the unsuited p2p-tech in a PvP match. sure, dedicated server are a help, but i had far too many unreachable ones of them and even some that kept every player who tried to load into them in an endless loading loop...

yes, a REAL lobby system with match browser and everything a PvP needs is necessary - more than this, it's the base of every PvP game in existence (at least those that ain't from the 1990's)

the rewards from conclave also never really stirred me up... skins for frames and weapon are nice and all, but i rather spend my time in warframe getting things of more... practical... use (as far as any 'practical' use is in a computer game ^^)

on the other hand, putting anything as reward into the PvP part only, is a sure shot at alienating those player who hates PvP (for logical reason or not, doesn't matter). so, i can't really see anyway for DE to ever make conclave more appealing - but then again, i'm no creative worker, so, who knows what they might think off for it...

[Aldain]

I didn't know there were any PvP players even left on Warframe in the first place.

I also don't know why people are so desperate for PvP in a game that is almost entirely based upon PvE, its like going into a sushi restaurant and demanding that they serve you burritos.

[Almagnus1]

14 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

They also confirmed you'll be able to opt-out of it, which to me indicates they're not exactly confident in its quality. I don't blame them, Warframe is not exactly Dark Souls. I seriously doubt the mode is going to be fun for more than a few attempts, I suspect some horrible imbalance or exploit is going to be discovered quickly that will pretty much ruin it. Or people will just use it to grief and annoy others rather than actually trying to fight.

Or DE doesn't want to upset PvErs that have the reaction speed of a dead fish by thrusting them into PvP content when they think they're safe in PvE content.

I'd have to admit I'm looking forward to it because the challenge of taking out an objective defended by the players does sound interesting 😃

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

I'd have to admit I'm looking forward to it because the challenge of taking out an objective defended by the players does sound interesting 😃

Are you not the exact reason DE wouldn't let "invaders" damage the objective?

3 hours ago, (XB1)XGN DrFeelGood said:

Warframe used to shut down Destiny big time with the highly effective war frame abilities and the 2 Raids. When the unholy trinity came to push for a nerf wave and to shut down our mechanic stacking meta tricks by calling it broken the game got watered down enough for people to return to Destiny, Overwatch, CoD, and Fortnite. Not being able to use weapons while on the K-Drive; but Fortnite can let people do a barrel roll on the hover board mid air 2 stories high from a boost and jump while quick scoping someone 3 football fields away is a different situation. The point is we used to have snowball fights in conclave and we could have had more fun options in the pvp area too; but we are distracted with the opinion of “everything needs rebalancing because it is too o p”. That opinion has put holes in the premise of the game’s mission like Swiss cheese. 

This is fan fiction. You are inventing this absurd competition between dissimilar games. How is CoD going to take anyone actually invested in Warframe? Guns? Is that the thing that makes the games the same?

[Guest]

Again, this thread comes on. Again, Call of Duty, Fortnite, PUBG, DotA, Dark Souls etc are still alive and well on the market and didn't suddenly disappear overnight. Again, people apparently only have Warframe in their Steam Library.

Why?

[Almagnus1]

19 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Are you not the exact reason DE wouldn't let "invaders" damage the objective?

It's not my problem if they allow it.

You just gotta make sure I'm not an issue.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

3 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Again, this thread comes on. Again, Call of Duty, Fortnite, PUBG, DotA, Dark Souls etc are still alive and well on the market and didn't suddenly disappear overnight. Again, people apparently only have Warframe in their Steam Library.

Why?

Ever since games like Black Ops 1 people got this logic that nerfing some weapons and buffing others keeps the game balanced for e sports. Fast forward through time and we got these soy boys trying to nerf other people’s mains, builds, and what not than to learn how to conter. It can be something so small like don’t play the raiders against the patriots in madden, apart from old school madden. “Let’s just nerf the patriots” makes a lot of attention here when we are more focused on the crowd being hurt by a pve build that is not affecting their game play; so conclave needs more attention.

[(PSN)shanncz]

I guess many "PvE+PvP" players won't leave the game because PvE aspect is soooo good that they could overcome PvP lack.

I personally just hit MR20 and haven't tried Conclave YET! I have no problem with PvP, I always wanted to try it out but there is some much PvE content out there. If they add reasonable rewards into Conclave/Lunaro I'm playing that instantly. 😉 But what I see there are only PvP-mods, and you need to max-top standings for some shiny skins..

[Aramil999]

3 hours ago, (PS4)shanncz said:

.

I personally just hit MR20 and haven't tried Conclave YET!

There is the problem. You are not alone. There is a lot of players like you. They do PvE, then they have nothing more to do in it SO they go for PvP.

However when you (or any player) will finaly get bored with endless farming or simply get everything and go for PvP you will get:

-no players to play agains (there is like maybe 10 pvp players in game per day, only during certein hours),

-no info about anything, guns, warframe abilities, stats, loadouts etc. work different than in PvE,

-if you even manage to play few matches you will get destroyed like you wouldn't belive. Even when i played like say 2 hours a day every day i was one of the worst players out there AND i still could anihilate noobs even if i was alone versus 4, no chance to play and train only to get killed

At this point, bored with PvE ans unable to play PvP player will simply leave the game. 

[(PSN)shanncz]

44 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

...

At this point, bored with PvE ans unable to play PvP player will simply leave the game. 

I see your point.. but Warframe is primary PvE coop game. PvP is just small appendix. DE is adding so much PvE content, that you shouldn't finish all easily..

I guess PvP should have some revamp (at least everybody say so, I don't have personal experience). I don't understand how they want balance each Warframe, each with 4 unique and complex abilities. Moreover there are several new warframes per year. Maybe it's enough to have only 1 ability in PvP. But again if they add some nice rewards, I'll play Conclave temporary even if it is bad.. 😉

What I see on Wiki there is Annihilation mode - where everybody has the same weapon and cannot use skills. So I guess it should be more balanced, playable even for non-experienced player like me..

[Steel_Rook]

11 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

It's not my problem if they allow it. You just gotta make sure I'm not an issue.

And I will, by disabling the system the first chance I get. And if they won't allow me to disable it? Well, let's just say that there are things a host can do in their own locally-hosted lobby which can... Interfere with other people's ability to join it. You cannot force PvE players in PvP against their will and attempting to do so is not a good idea.

[(XBOX)GameNerd300]

20 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

You mean Teshin and the War Within are not part of the lore? 🤔

 

That's not what I said. I said this game isn't like Destiny, where you're doing quests that take you into PvP and PvE or make the lore have stories of Tenno killing other Tenno with a cursed weapon or frame. TWW definitely had Teshin in it, but was he saying anything about the conclave in the quest? No. Instead, Teshin got personal with our operators and told us why he was bound to obey the queens and some other lore information. Conclave wasn't mentioned one bit.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

And I will, by disabling the system the first chance I get. And if they won't allow me to disable it? Well, let's just say that there are things a host can do in their own locally-hosted lobby which can... Interfere with other people's ability to join it.

You do realize that if you are hosting the game and that gets found out, that's something that can probably get you banned - plus DE said they'll have an opt out, so you aren't subjected to it.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

You cannot force PvE players in PvP against their will and attempting to do so is not a good idea.

Some of them that never tried PvP may actually like it, plus if it's only tied to the Stalker, G3, and Zanuka, then once everyone clears those marks, you have nothing to fear.

[Tsukinoki]

2 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

that's something that can probably get you banned

Actually its not.
Its not something that DE can control and it would be near impossible for anyone to actually detect.
Did you fail to join because the host saw your incoming connection and blocked it with a firewall/other app?  Or because you just had a poor connection to the host?
Good luck telling the difference...

3 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

plus if it's only tied to the Stalker, G3, and Zanuka, then once everyone clears those marks, you have nothing to fear.

Oh yes.
Lets hope that no one in your squad runs invasions or bosses ever to accrue marks with absolutely no way to avoid them (especially newer players that would just be destroyed by this system and pretty much have to farm bosses for frames and progres....)

[Kontrollo]

41 minutes ago, (XB1)GameNerd300 said:

That's not what I said. I said this game isn't like Destiny, where you're doing quests that take you into PvP and PvE or make the lore have stories of Tenno killing other Tenno with a cursed weapon or frame. TWW definitely had Teshin in it, but was he saying anything about the conclave in the quest? No. Instead, Teshin got personal with our operators and told us why he was bound to obey the queens and some other lore information. Conclave wasn't mentioned one bit.

Ah, I guess I've misinterpreted that, thanks for clarifying. Two points however:

• Teshin got introduced with the new Conclave and made part of lore in several ways: Natah, War Within and Oro are part of it now.
• I thought it was a good thing that there are no mandatory Conclave parts in the game? At least that's the impression you get around here.

On 2019-04-15 at 4:41 PM, (XB1)GameNerd300 said:

... The game is mainly PvE co-op, and it's fine that way. 

Agreed, but that doesn't mean it has to be exclusively PvE. Play PvP or ignore it, but let those who enjoy it have their thing, too.

 

15 hours ago, Aldain said:

I didn't know there were any PvP players even left on Warframe in the first place. 

I also don't know why people are so desperate for PvP in a game that is almost entirely based upon PvE, its like going into a sushi restaurant and demanding that they serve you burritos.

It's easy to check that there are.

Here's how I see it: You don't have to play PvE for long until it devolves into something rather simplistic. That's not to say it being simplistic is an inherently bad thing. But when playing Conclave, you're still a Space Ninja.

[Acos]

There's already a plethora of other games that offer a dedicated PVP experience that I don't feel like Warframe needs to dilute itself making it a focus. They've tried to boot up conclave as a thing twice now, with a dedicated dev-team on its' second attempt but the majority of the playerbase just isn't into it for whatever variety of reasons. 

I really don't think its necessary for Warframes success to have a popular PVP mode either, as evident by the fact that its still going strong without it after all this time. It's okay to go play one of the other thousands of video games in-between content drops and in fact DE encourages it since it takes a lot of pressure off them to be pumping out content and lets them focus on bigger, more meaningful content. Warframe is not a jealous lover; it will still be here when you get back. 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Acos

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Actually its not.
Its not something that DE can control and it would be near impossible for anyone to actually detect.
Did you fail to join because the host saw your incoming connection and blocked it with a firewall/other app?  Or because you just had a poor connection to the host?
Good luck telling the difference...

And that's not against the TOS how?

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

You do realize that if you are hosting the game and that gets found out, that's something that can probably get you banned - plus DE said they'll have an opt out, so you aren't subjected to it.

A host messing with their own connection is about as likely to be found out as a host playing the game without wearing pants. That is to say, a scenario where that's even remotely possible without also generating an absolutely unmanageable amount of false positives is quite fantastical.

 

2 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Some of them that never tried PvP may actually like it, plus if it's only tied to the Stalker, G3, and Zanuka, then once everyone clears those marks, you have nothing to fear.

Some people who have never been kicked in the balls might actually really like it. Just in case, let's periodically spin every player around and kick them in the balls just to make sure. I'm sure that'll work out great. Also, what happened to the opt-out you cited? What would I have to fear even WITH an assassination mark if I have the system disabled?

Obviously I'm being facetious, but my point stands. In probably 20 years of messing with video games, I've yet to meet a person who doesn't like PvP but develops a taste for it after being ganked by a far higher-level player. In fact, I'll go one farther - I've never seen a player who expressly does not want to PvP, is forced into PvP against their expressed wishes, and then develops a taste for it. Even if we assumed that there exist these players who just didn't know they liked PvP - even if I don't believe they do - the proper way to introduce them to the mode is to let them try it out at THEIR convenience, not to remove their agency and force them into it at YOUR convenience. That's how you train a dog, not how you introduce people to entertainment.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

A host messing with their own connection is about as likely to be found out as a host playing the game without wearing pants. That is to say, a scenario where that's even remotely possible without also generating an absolutely unmanageable amount of false positives is quite fantastical.

Depends if there's other checks with DE that each host has to make prior to accepting clients, and also if those clients have connections.  If DE figures out that players are forcibly disconnecting players (as data doesn't match up, or specific connections are oddly cold), bans will happen. We don't know what other verification checks are occurring.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Obviously I'm being facetious, but my point stands. In probably 20 years of messing with video games, I've yet to meet a person who doesn't like PvP but develops a taste for it after being ganked by a far higher-level player. In fact, I'll go one farther - I've never seen a player who expressly does not want to PvP, is forced into PvP against their expressed wishes, and then develops a taste for it. Even if we assumed that there exist these players who just didn't know they liked PvP - even if I don't believe they do - the proper way to introduce them to the mode is to let them try it out at THEIR convenience, not to remove their agency and force them into it at YOUR convenience. That's how you train a dog, not how you introduce people to entertainment.

And yet, the Stalker is already in the game, and he's a rather easy thing to run over.  Don't we all want a smarter, better, more fear inducing Stalker?

If the mode is done right, I doubt you'd likely notice the difference between the AI Stalker and a human one, especially as some of the less experienced Stalkers are going to be easier to kill than the AI one as it's impossible to surprise an AI into inaction where that's something that has been known to happen in PvP where someone gets surprised and their character freezes as they spaz out for a moment until they regain composure and continue on.  In the scope of a Stalker, that means the Stalker stops dead in their tracks, gets ran over by the tenno, and session ends as a failure for the Stalker.  Other Stalkers are going to be nightmare fights, and some of the more trolly ones are going to run AWAY from the player and straight to an objective to down it while the players are trying to take them out.  All of this is going to result in a more dynamic Stalker as the Stalker is too easy to drop right now in Warframe.

Unless you'd like to retain the EZ-mode Stalker, that is.

[Steel_Rook]

9 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Depends if there's other checks with DE that each host has to make prior to accepting clients, and also if those clients have connections.  If DE figures out that players are forcibly disconnecting players (as data doesn't match up, or specific connections are oddly cold), bans will happen. We don't know what other verification checks are occurring.

Go tell that to Rockstar. They've been working to fix precisely this exploit for five years. Run a google search and see how well they're doing. The only real way to catch people doing that is to start making assumptions based on their network traffic. For one, you can't actually grab enough background info without running into EU consumer data protection laws. For another, you're basically guessing. The result is what ended up happening to Payday 2, where moderators eventually gave up enforcing anti-cheating rules because bugs, sync issues and plain old human error ended up banning a whole bunch of innocent people. Any developer who wants control over server-side behaviour needs to host the servers themselves. You go P2P, you're opening up yourself to cheats, hacks, aimbots, connection issues and all other manner of exploits.

 

13 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

And yet, the Stalker is already in the game, and he's a rather easy thing to run over.  Don't we all want a smarter, better, more fear inducing Stalker?

No. No we don't all want that. You're making a circular argument. You start from the standpoint of liking PvP, assert that PvP traits (i.e. smarter more complex opponents) are positive, then lap your own argument to assert that these positive traits justify PvP. A major part of good AI design is creating enemies whose behaviour is predictable, whose actions are well-communicated and whose objective is to facilitate gameplay over creating challenge. Other players don't make for an immersive experience. From simple aspects of player controls very obviously not moving like AI pathfinding to player behaviour not matching a decent AI opponent to crap players and trolls making a mockery out of a system, issues are plentiful.

If I wanted PvP, I'd seek out PvP. I don't, thus I intend to opt out of the system in any way I can. All of what you describe as upsides to a potential PvP Stalker system are gameplay features I not only have no interest in, but outright despise. Games don't need to be challenging in order to be compelling, enemies don't need to be intelligent to be fun, games don't need to be PvP to be enjoyable. Assuming that "we all want a better Stalker" is mistake.

[Almagnus1]

Quote

No. No we don't all want that. You're making a circular argument. You start from the standpoint of liking PvP, assert that PvP traits (i.e. smarter more complex opponents) are positive, then lap your own argument to assert that these positive traits justify PvP.

No, I want a Stalker that's harder to fight.  What's the link between a better boss fight and PvP traits?

Quote

A major part of good AI design is creating enemies whose behaviour is predictable, whose actions are well-communicated and whose objective is to facilitate gameplay over creating challenge. Other players don't make for an immersive experience. From simple aspects of player controls very obviously not moving like AI pathfinding to player behaviour not matching a decent AI opponent to crap players and trolls making a mockery out of a system, issues are plentiful.

No, that makes for dull, uninteresting enemies.  I don't want something that's easy and predictable to fight, i want something that's a little erratic so that I have to better react to it.

The problem with computer AI is that it's too predictable, and giving the exact same move set to a human would allow for (IMO) a more interesting boss fight because the human will make the bot play smarter.  In addition, the human control would allow for training data to improve the AI bot, so the end result is a win/win especially if machine learning is applied.

Quote

If I wanted PvP, I'd seek out PvP. I don't, thus I intend to opt out of the system in any way I can. All of what you describe as upsides to a potential PvP Stalker system are gameplay features I not only have no interest in, but outright despise. Games don't need to be challenging in order to be compelling, enemies don't need to be intelligent to be fun, games don't need to be PvP to be enjoyable. Assuming that "we all want a better Stalker" is mistake.

You don't even know if you'd LIKE the new system and you've already written it off.

Are you that afraid of a challenge?

Edited April 16, 2019 by Almagnus1