PvE+PvP Players are leaving the game :(

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-04-15 at 9:43 PM, Hobie-wan said:

... I have no desire play games against people that play something 23 hours a day and have the maps and key map points fully memorized so they can shoot me in the face the moment I spawn or hurl insults at me if I manage to get a kill or worse, win a round. I know not all PVP players are like that, but enough are, that once entrenched, they're unshakable and you're very likely to have at least one in every match in any online PVP game.

12 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

... And if they won't allow me to disable it? Well, let's just say that there are things a host can do in their own locally-hosted lobby which can... Interfere with other people's ability to join it. ...

9 hours ago, Acos said:

There's already a plethora of other games that offer a dedicated PVP experience that I don't feel like Warframe needs to dilute itself making it a focus. They've tried to boot up conclave as a thing twice now, with a dedicated dev-team on its' second attempt but the majority of the playerbase just isn't into it for whatever variety of reasons. ...

Always great to have these kinds of posts, and even on the same page in a single thread.

The first guy talks about PvP toxicity (note: mute and/or report offending players, always.), the second one outright states he would intentionally sabotage the game. If you find the irony here, feel free to keep it.

That discussion is moot anyway, because opt-in/-out for Stalker mode has officially been confirmed. And It won't be what I'd call proper PvP, because it won't be balanced.

In the third post we're simply told to play another game. That's simply a non-argument; there are a plethora of other PvE games, too, yet we're here because we want to play this game. Also, because people love to bring this up: Point to whomever said PvP should be more than something you can do on the side. It's definitely not in the OP, right?

While we're at it, please point me to the plethora of PvP games that have this kind of gameplay, will you?

[Acos]

28 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

In the third post we're simply told to play another game. That's simply a non-argument; there are a plethora of other PvE games, too, yet we're here because we want to play this game. Also, because people love to bring this up: Point to whomever said PvP should be more than something you can do on the side. It's definitely not in the OP, right?

You are coming off rather aggressively in your post. 

You use the royal "we", but statistics are not actually on your side of the argument. If PVP was a popular game mode in Warframe people would be playing it, but it isn't, and not from a lack of effort on DE's part. Obviously it has a small audience, but OP is claiming that it is the reason people are "leaving the game" without any evidence to support that claim and with what statistics do exists easily dismissing his theory.

You are distorting my view about playing video games other than Warframe to be a "if you don't like it, get out" argument, which it clearly is not; I've been playing the game for six years so I think it should be evident that I enjoy it. My point is that you can enjoy other video games alongside Warframe, and shouldn't expect any single game to be your sole source of entertainment. 

It doesn't make sense for DE to further develop a game made that people have shown an obvious disinterest in, and while it sucks to be part of a minority that does you also need to understand why a company wouldn't continue to pour development time into something that isn't worth the payoff. I really want Archwing to be a thing, but I also understand why DE has backed off from it since its' lukewarm release. OP's claim that people are leaving the game due to a lack of PVP is unfounded. 

[Kontrollo]

5 minutes ago, Acos said:

You are coming off rather aggressively in your post. 

You use the royal "we", but statistics are not actually on your side of the argument. If PVP was a popular game mode in Warframe people would be playing it, but it isn't, and not from a lack of effort on DE's part. Obviously it has a small audience, but OP is claiming that it is the reason people are "leaving the game" without any evidence to support that claim and with what statistics do exists easily dismissing his theory.

You are distorting my view about playing video games other than Warframe to be a "if you don't like it, get out" argument, which it clearly is not; I've been playing the game for six years so I think it should be evident that I enjoy it. My point is that you can enjoy other video games alongside Warframe, and shouldn't expect any single game to be your sole source of entertainment. 

It doesn't make sense for DE to further develop a game made that people have shown an obvious disinterest in, and while it sucks to be part of a minority that does you also need to understand why a company wouldn't continue to pour development time into something that isn't worth the payoff. I really want Archwing to be a thing, but I also understand why DE has backed off from it since its' lukewarm release. OP's claim that people are leaving the game due to a lack of PVP is unfounded. 

Aggressive? I guess you could interpret it that way if you really wanted to, but don't read too much into it. It's more mild annoyance, I've seen these kinds of posts aplenty in my time here, especially back when I was active.

It was not meant to be the royal we, but "we who enjoy or at least are not against playing PvP". It's rather silly to assume the former.

 

You're talking as if you know how much effort they put into PvP. Enlighten us, how much is it? When they've revamped the Conclave and now? An estimate is alright with me.

 

I've said earlier it wouldn't surprise me if PvP players were leaving because I have an idea how much effort the devs put into it -- but I agree here, I'd be interested to see if there's anything more tangible backing that up.

You didn't really answer my questions, by the way.

[Acos]

35 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

You're talking as if you know how much effort they put into PvP. Enlighten us, how much is it? When they've revamped the Conclave and now? An estimate is alright with me.

I've said earlier it wouldn't surprise me if PvP players were leaving because I have an idea how much effort the devs put into it -- but I agree here, I'd be interested to see if there's anything more tangible backing that up.

You didn't really answer my questions, by the way.

I will attempt to simplify my point for you: 

1) OP is wrong that players are leaving the game due to a lack of PVP; It is evident to me both from DEs effort towards conclave, playerbase lack of interest, and the continued health of the game that the majority of players do not care about a PVP mode in Warframe and that it is not adversely affecting the population for not being a bigger focus. 

2) I don't think its' wrong to enjoy other games in-between content drops for Warframe, and I encourage players to drop the "brand-loyalty" mentality that stops them from experiencing other avenues of entertainment.

If you don't wish to believe me that DE has made a dedicated effort in the past to make Conclave into its' own thing there is nothing more I care to do about that; I'm not about to go sift through hours upon hours of Devstreams to find you the segment where they talk about revitalizing Conclave with a dedicated team, but I assure you that it did happen. Unfortunately I imagine that team has been repurposed elsewhere at this point considering the lukewarm reception PVP in Warframe has gotten every time it has tried to be a thing. 

The point of my argument is not that conclave shouldn't be a thing or that the game mode could not become popular with even more resources devoted to it, but that the Dev-team has put forth effort towards it already and failed to make something interesting twice now. I don't think its absurd that they seem to have moved onto other projects more inline with the playerbase interests. 

To sort of attempt to answer your question; I don't know of other PVP games similar to Warframe, as I am not myself terribly interested in PVP and that question is outside the scope of the counter-argument I was making specifically for the OP. I imagine if there is another PVP game exactly like Warframe it isn't very popular since PVP in Warframe it not terribly popular either, so I imagine it is pretty obscure. 

 

[Kontrollo]

2 minutes ago, Acos said:

I will attempt to simplify my point for you: 

1) OP is wrong that players are leaving the game due to a lack of PVP; It is evident to me both from DEs effort towards conclave, playerbase lack of interest, and the continued health of the game that the majority of players do not care about a PVP mode in Warframe and that it is not adversely affecting the population for not being a bigger focus. 

2) I don't think its' wrong to enjoy other games in-between content drops for Warframe, and I encourage players to drop the "brand-loyalty" mentality that stops them from experiencing other avenues of entertainment.

1. I think here's where you got it wrong: The point he's making is about people who play PvP or at least like to play both modes, that's why the PvE+PvP is there. This is not a "the game is dying" thread, at least that's the impression I have.
    
2. Sure you can "encourage". But you don't get to tell me what I should play and enjoy, and no one else for that matter. That said, I've taken long breaks from this game before.

 

8 minutes ago, Acos said:

If you don't wish to believe me that DE has made a dedicated effort in the past to make Conclave into its' own thing there is nothing more I care to do about that; I'm not about to go sift through hours upon hours of Devstreams to find you the segment where they talk about revitalizing Conclave with a dedicated team, but I assure you that it did happen. Unfortunately I imagine that team has been repurposed elsewhere at this point considering the lukewarm reception PVP in Warframe has gotten every time it has tried to be a thing. 

So basically, you can't really back it up. Your problem is that you're talking to the wrong guy about this, because I have a pretty good idea what was and is going on, on that side of the game, despite not playing it actively at the moment. As good as it gets anyway, from a player perspective.

 

11 minutes ago, Acos said:

The point of my argument is not that conclave shouldn't be a thing or that the game mode could not become popular with even more resources devoted to it ...

Ok then, regarding dev investment, here's a really simple one: How much have they invested in, say, a year into this part of the game? Hint 1: If you'd read my previous posts you'd already be halfway to the answer. Hint 2: The wiki has big patch note pages.

But thanks for the first part. There are a lot of posts from people along the line of "I don't like it, so it shouldn't be in the game/therefore remove it". And, you know, it gets old.

 

19 minutes ago, Acos said:

To sort of attempt to answer your question; I don't know of other PVP games similar to Warframe, as I am not myself terribly interested in PVP and that question is outside the scope of the counter-argument I was making specifically for the OP. I imagine if there is another PVP game exactly like Warframe it isn't very popular since PVP in Warframe it not terribly popular either, so I imagine it is pretty obscure. 

Honestly, I don't know of any with this kind of gameplay and mobility.

[Aramil999]

17 minutes ago, Acos said:

 OP is wrong that players are leaving the game due to a lack of PVP; It is evident to me both from DEs effort towards conclave, playerbase lack of interest, and the continued health of the game that the majority of players do not care about a PVP mode in Warframe and that it is not adversely affecting the population for not being a bigger focus. 

You can not know that. (besides im talking about new players or people who think about playing Warframe and are not yet "players" only small portion of veterans leave because of this reasons).

Facts that we can say for sure are:

-the most popular online games (most daily players) are League of Legends, Fortnite, PUBG, DOTA2 etc. almost all of them are pure PvP games. So most of online games audience likes/preferes PvP.

Now for Fact we know how many players play Warframe for it's PvP. It's almost non (well ok few houndreds every mounth but it is very very tiny population). 

So in such big game Where are all this PvP fun?

Most likely answer: They left or simply didn't get interested in Warframe in the first place. That means lost players, potential players and money for DE.

[Acos]

1 minute ago, Kontrollo said:

1. So basically, you can't really back it up. Your problem is that you're talking to the wrong guy about this, because I have a pretty good idea what was and is going on, on that side of the game, despite not playing it actively at the moment. As good as it gets anyway, from a player perspective.

 

I will put the burden of evidence on you then since you haven't provided any yourself. Perhaps our expectation of developer effort is different, but I have been playing this game actively for six years now, so I don't feel as though I am possessed of any less information than you. Since you are an expert on the topic I'll let you flaunt what you know, but at the moment I remain convinced of my argument. 

The only game that comes to mind is Titanfall, but again, I'm not interested enough in PVP as a genre to really know. The most PVP I do is dealing with invasions in Dark Souls and like, Mario Kart 8. 

[Acos]

8 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

You can not know that. (besides im talking about new players or people who think about playing Warframe and are not yet "players" only small portion of veterans leave because of this reasons).

Facts that we can say for sure are:

-the most popular online games (most daily players) are League of Legends, Fortnite, PUBG, DOTA2 etc. almost all of them are pure PvP games. So most of online games audience likes/preferes PvP.

Now for Fact we know how many players play Warframe for it's PvP. It's almost non (well ok few houndreds every mounth but it is very very tiny population). 

So in such big game Where are all this PvP fun?

Most likely answer: They left or simply didn't get interested in Warframe in the first place. That means lost players, potential players and money for DE.

I don't know that for certain, but I can infer that from the information I have available and the Developers lack of interest in continuing to develop concalve. 

Fortnite, PUBG, and DOTA are all on that list by a wide margin, but the same list also has Warframe steadily at the number 3-4 slot for several years now. Warframe appeals to a different audience and has failed to tap into the same audience that those other games attract. I suppose Warframe could try a battle royale mode on the plains, but I don't think it would appeal to most of the people currently playing Warframe and I also rather doubt it would pull crowds who are already playing PUBG. Also if you just want PUBG, it already exsists, so I don't think there's a lot of reason for DE to also make it. 

I definitely think DE's initial efforts towards PVP were to pull in that crowd, but it hasn't worked for them twice now; should they dedicate resources to failing a third time? 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Acos

[zoffmode]

Haven't met a single player that didn't mock Warframe's PvP or enjoyed playing it.

Warframe isn't PvP friendly and that's that. For Warframe to be good PvP, you literally need to change WHOLE game and then it's no longer Warframe  but some cheap knock off game no one wants to play. 

The only way I can see Warframe PvP being interesting is using something we actually have  while restricting everything completely broken in WF. And that's taking all frames and weapons out of PvP and making it Operator only combat. Hell you can have some PvP only amps and powers. Make it "competition between Tenno". Makes sense they would use real powers and not frames. Then you can actually balance it and make it a fun mode.

Edited April 17, 2019 by zoffmode

[Almagnus1]

4 minutes ago, Acos said:

The only game that comes to mind is Titanfall, but again, I'm not interested enough in PVP as a genre to really know. The most PVP I do is dealing with invasions in Dark Souls and like, Mario Kart 8. 

So please explain to me how Stalker mode is any different than a Dark Souls invasion.

 

[Kontrollo]

Just now, Acos said:

I will put the burden of evidence on you then since you haven't provided any yourself. Perhaps our expectation of developer effort is different, but I have been playing this game actively for six years now, so I don't feel as though I am possessed of any less information than you. Since you are an expert on the topic I'll let you flaunt what you know, but at the moment I remain convinced of my argument. 

The only game that comes to mind is Titanfall, but again, I'm not interested enough in PVP as a genre to really know. The most PVP I do is dealing with invasions in Dark Souls and like, Mario Kart 8. 

Alright then, but you have to be willing to read another conversation, because I don't feel like rehashing it. That's only fair since you can't be bothered to look a few things up, either, right?

 

I haven't played the first two, but I read that they cancelled Titanfall 3 to focus on Apex Legends. 😞

[Acos]

2 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So please explain to me how Stalker mode is any different than a Dark Souls invasion.

 

Are you asking me to explain a game mode to you that doesn't exist yet? I imagine it will be similar, and I also anticipate people not liking it very much. What is your point exactly? 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Acos

[zoffmode]

10 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

You can not know that. (besides im talking about new players or people who think about playing Warframe and are not yet "players" only small portion of veterans leave because of this reasons).

Facts that we can say for sure are:

-the most popular online games (most daily players) are League of Legends, Fortnite, PUBG, DOTA2 etc. almost all of them are pure PvP games. So most of online games audience likes/preferes PvP.

Now for Fact we know how many players play Warframe for it's PvP. It's almost non (well ok few houndreds every mounth but it is very very tiny population). 

So in such big game Where are all this PvP fun?

Most likely answer: They left or simply didn't get interested in Warframe in the first place. That means lost players, potential players and money for DE.

That's actually very funny to read. Thanks for this. 😂

[Acos]

Just now, Kontrollo said:

Alright then, but you have to be willing to read another conversation, because I don't feel like rehashing it. That's only fair since you can't be bothered to look a few things up, either, right?

 

I haven't played the first two, but I read that they cancelled Titanfall 3 to focus on Apex Legends. 😞

It's more that I don't think it is reasonable for me to dig through six years of devstreams to find the part where they talk about the point I'm making (which you seem to be aware of anyway, so I'm definitely not going to bother) and it isn't as though this topic is going to make some ground breaking change for conclave either. The burden of evidence is greater than my interest in this topic, and I'm afraid it's of little consequence to me if you have a different opinion of the situation after I've made my point, and even less upon the game as a whole.

For the sake of conversation, I assume you are disappointed by SilentMobious statement of 2 developers? Obviously our standards on this are going to differ here, but that doesn't sound unreasonable to me given the fact that most of the game had already been developed by that point. I don't feel like SilentMobious does a great job estimating the cost of other staff either; you would need the art team, sound team, input from lead designers, etc etc. I don't think you are going to get the concrete head count you are looking for. 

As I was there during the conclave revamp, my impression is that they made a modest effort but cut short any further development as their playerbase simply wasn't interested in it. I think our opinions differ in that you feel they should have stuck with it to develop Conclave into something worth playing? Perhaps they could have done more with more dedicated staff, but game development is always a game of cost analysis; Does it make sense to not produce content their playerbase is interested in with the hope of siphoning players from other games that they are already invested in? Evidently the answer to that question for DE is no. 

To sort of piggyback off your argument from earlier, I think part of why Warframe is successful is that it is unique and fulfills a niche that other games available are not providing. Warframe could spend time developing a Battle Royale mode to appeal to that audience, but I don't imagine it would be terribly popular with its current playerbase and I also don't think it will siphon people who are already invested in PUBG or Fortnite (or one of the other dozen clones in that genre). Which isn't to say that nobody would enjoy it, just that it doesn't seem to be the best use of Dev time. 
 

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Acos said:

It's more that I don't think it is reasonable for me to dig through six years of devstreams to find the part where they talk about the point I'm making (which you seem to be aware of anyway, so I'm definitely not going to bother) and it isn't as though this topic is going to make some ground breaking change for conclave either. The burden of evidence is greater than my interest in this topic, and I'm afraid it's of little consequence to me if you have a different opinion of the situation after I've made my point, and even less upon the game as a whole.

For the sake of conversation, I assume you are disappointed by SilentMobious statement of 2 developers? Obviously our standards on this are going to differ here, but that doesn't sound unreasonable to me given the fact that most of the game had already been developed by that point. I don't feel like SilentMobious does a great job estimating the cost of other staff either; you would need the art team, sound team, input from lead designers, etc etc. I don't think you are going to get the concrete head count you are looking for. 

As I was there during the conclave revamp, my impression is that they made a modest effort but cut short any further development as their playerbase simply wasn't interested in it. I think our opinions differ in that you feel they should have stuck with it to develop Conclave into something worth playing? Perhaps they could have done more with more dedicated staff, but game development is always a game of cost analysis; Does it make sense to not produce content their playerbase is interested in with the hope of siphoning players from other games that they are already invested in? Evidently the answer to that question for DE is no. 

To sort of piggyback off your argument from earlier, I think part of why Warframe is successful is that it is unique and fulfills a niche that other games available are not providing. Warframe could spend time developing a Battle Royale mode to appeal to that audience, but I don't imagine it would be terribly popular with its current playerbase and I also don't think it will siphon people who are already invested in PUBG or Fortnite (or one of the other dozen clones in that genre). Which isn't to say that nobody would enjoy it, just that it doesn't seem to be the best use of Dev time.

Yes yes, of course, there are other people involved and we talked about that, too, which you omitted. Now you're implying I'm looking for a concrete headcount, but in fact I gave an estimate in that thread, thanks for misrepresenting. What also wasn't mentioned is how some assets then got reused for Index and Rathuum, for example, so it's pointless to assign exact numbers here, even if we knew all the people who were involved.

Fact is: It's been a small portion of dev investment even when they revamped it, and it's been almost abandoned for months now. Yet, people still play it. You know who's making threads about Content Drought again after, uh, a week or two? Hint: It's not the PvP side of the player base.

Also, of course the burden of evidence is on you when you try to make it sound like there was a significant focus on it. They made a push and it got some attention initially, but we don't really know how much. But now they don't even maintain it properly, and I can tell you that wouldn't be much of a drain either. Balance-wise It was in a decent spot early 2017 before I left, now it isn't. And since that time the one major addition was a new Earth tileset map, anyway.

Also: screw Battle Royale, I don't think the engine could handle that anyway. But seriously, talking to people on this forum is always such an uphill battle when it comes to PvP. No one wants to steal your PvE lunch (and mine! that's what I'm playing now anyway), and it's not too much to ask to at least maintain the modes. So here's the final question I'd like you to answer, like in that other thread:

What do you think would happen if the PvE side of the game didn't receive an update that isn't just some bug fixes in about seven months?

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Acos said:

Are you asking me to explain a game mode to you that doesn't exist yet? I imagine it will be similar, and I also anticipate people not liking it very much. What is your point exactly? 

It's not going to be the end of the world when it happens as we're going to have the few really loud haters, then a bunch of people that are largely indifferent, and a few that like it... kinda like most other features in Warframe.

[zoffmode]

9 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

What do you think would happen if the PvE side of the game didn't receive an update that isn't just some bug fixes in about seven months?

The game would be dead. No your PvP wouldn't keep the game afloat. DE barely has enough workforce for the actual game (yes it is PvE), yet you want them to do PvP which pretty much no one is interested in. What you're essentially promoting is actual game getting less content which is why you get such a pushback. Basically you want the game to be dead so you can have your PvP mode. Exaggerating but it mostly goes that way. PvP is just a waste of resources why would you ever do it in Warframe.

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, zoffmode said:

The game would be dead. No your PvP wouldn't keep the game afloat. DE barely has enough workforce for the actual game (yes it is PvE), yet you want them to do PvP which pretty much no one is interested in. What you're essentially promoting is actual game getting less content which is why you get such a pushback. Basically you want the game to be dead so you can have your PvP mode. Exaggerating but it mostly goes that way. PvP is just a waste of resources why would you ever do it in Warframe.

Right it would be.

But that exact thing happened with Conclave, and people still play it despite that. If nothing else, maybe at least that should give you a clue about the proportions of investment and engagement we're talking about here.

And before you try this angle: Yes, we know from the Dedicated Server leaderboards that people have played it these past 2.5 years, and those are not giving us a complete picture, either. As mentioned in the other thread, the top hoster alone has about 170k games to his name.

[zoffmode]

Just now, Kontrollo said:

Right it would be.

But that exact thing happened with Conclave, and people still play it despite that. If nothing else, maybe at least that should give you a clue about the proportions of investment and engagement we're talking about here.

And before you try this angle: Yes, we know from the Dedicated Server leaderboards that people have played it these past 2.5 years, and those are not giving us a complete picture, either. As mentioned in the other thread, the top hoster alone has about 170k games to his name.

And I got 450 hours on Sakura Clicker. Your point?

Sure yes, let's make Warframe mainly PvP game. Also let's revamp CIv 6 from a strategy game to a PvP shooter game as well. It has potential to work, right? Same chance of working as Warframe PvP working out honestly.

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, zoffmode said:

And I got 450 hours on Sakura Clicker. Your point?

Sure yes, let's make Warframe mainly PvP game. Also let's revamp CIv 6 from a strategy game to a PvP shooter game as well. It has potential to work, right? Same chance of working as Warframe PvP working out honestly.

If you still haven't gotten the point, I'm very sorry I can't help you. 😄

[zoffmode]

Just now, Kontrollo said:

If you still haven't gotten the point, I'm very sorry I can't help you. 😄

Sure. Same.

[MystMan]

The closest thing that resembles Warframe's pvp is Gunz, a game from 2003.  A very niche game that only hardcore gamers even know exists, the general gaming populace never heard of it. And there's a reason for this as to why it's such an obscure niche game: there aren't enough gamers who can handle and enjoy this high speed pvp, the demand just isn't there so it never took off to the limelight like the Counterstrikes and Battle Royals and their many many clones. 

Slower paced pvp is simply what the market wants and enjoys the most. Developers know this so they all have stuck to that all these years, this is why it's so hard to find Gunz alternatives. Gunz is still up btw and it's a safe bet to say way more active and alive than Warframe's conclave.
 

I like Archwing, it has its flaws and is certainly no ZOE (Zone of the Enders). But I'm not going to hold my breath hoping it will do a 180 after all these years and become an amazing mind-blowing different superior game mode. I'll just enjoy it for what it is. If I want the ZOE experience, I'll just go play ZOE.  Take it from me, don't waste your life sticking around a game you have burnt out from hoping it will become something better you want it to be. Game development takes years to make and perfect, years better spent looking and discovering other games that you will like.  

There are people who stick around in MMORPGs for years because they hope it will change direction and become something they want it to be. By the time they get tired and move on ~4 years will have passed. That's a huge waste of time. You can't fault DE for not trying at least, and oh-how-many-times they have tried to implement different pvp in Warframe only for them all to fizzle out shortly after release. Other devs normally never dare try to get out of their comfort zone and take risks, and for good reason. These risks cost lots of time and money, something they don't have an infinite amount of. So whatever pvp experiments they still insist on trying despite its repeated failed history streak, it's going to be a minimal effort risk. 

I enjoy and stick to Warframe for its strengths. For its weaknesses, I'll just go somewhere else instead of expecting them to be improved.  It's the logical thing to do, I expose myself to a multitude of games and player bases this way instead of just one. Why limit myself?

[Acos]

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Yes yes, of course, there are other people involved and we talked about that, too, which you omitted. Now you're implying I'm looking for a concrete headcount, but in fact I gave an estimate in that thread, thanks for misrepresenting. What also wasn't mentioned is how some assets then got reused for Index and Rathuum, for example, so it's pointless to assign exact numbers here, even if we knew all the people who were involved.

Fact is: It's been a small portion of dev investment even when they revamped it, and it's been almost abandoned for months now. Yet, people still play it. You know who's making threads about Content Drought again after, uh, a week or two? Hint: It's not the PvP side of the player base.

Also, of course the burden of evidence is on you when you try to make it sound like there was a significant focus on it. They made a push and it got some attention initially, but we don't really know how much. But now they don't even maintain it properly, and I can tell you that wouldn't be much of a drain either. Balance-wise It was in a decent spot early 2017 before I left, now it isn't. And since that time the one major addition was a new Earth tileset map, anyway.

I didn't omit anything, I directly referenced the person you were talking too (who also disagrees with you) and elaborated on his point. If there is some other segment of that conversation you think is relevant to your point then I would ask you to point it out because I am not entirely sure what you think that interaction is supposed to prove for you given that you've just discredited the entire conversation you had with SilentMobious, but still feel it was important to show to me? 

I'm not surprised you feel you are having a difficult time communicating with people on this forum given your style of argument. Understand from my perspective what you've done so far is essentially go "I am definitely an expert on this topic, and I totally know what I'm talking about, but you need to go read my post history and wikipedia entries to understand it because I refuse to just tell you what my point is directly and am instead going to keep asking you questions that I think will prove my point for me." 

Construct a proper argument with information you think relevant to your point, and quit asking people to go try to FIND your argument for you and you will likely have a much easier time talking to people here. 

Also, its' really disingenuous for you to act like I have been side-stepping my evidence because you refuse to acknowledge the Devstream and Developer activity you are entirely aware of until I do. What do you gain out of wasting my time like that? Not cool. 

I understand that you don't feel the developers did enough for PVP, and if you were paying any attention at all to what I've been saying you would have realized by now that I don't entirely disagree with that point. We seem to disagree on the degree of effort put forth towards conclave, but I do find it humorous that you seem to agree with everything else I've been saying but still seem to want to keep discussing this? For the sake posterity, my point is still this

1) DE introduced PVP, it isn't popular. 
2) DE attempts to revamp PVP, it isn't popular. 
3) DE safely assumes their playerbase isn't interested in PVP, playerbase continues to thrive and grow without its conclusion. OP is incorrect that DE needs a strong PVP presence to be successful, or that lack of PVP is causing players to quit playing in significant numbers. 

Would you like to address that at all or do you just keep wanting to have this back and forth about how much effort DE should have put towards conclave before they decided to pull out and focus on things the playerbase was actually receptive too? 





 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Acos

[Acos]

2 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

It's not going to be the end of the world when it happens as we're going to have the few really loud haters, then a bunch of people that are largely indifferent, and a few that like it... kinda like most other features in Warframe.

Okay, but why are we talking about it? What was so important about it, or what did it have to do with anything that you felt it was important to isolate that part of my post to ask my opinions on a feature that isn't even live yet? How does it relate to the incorrect assumption that Warframe is losing players because PVP is not a focus? What did it bring to the discussion to sidetrack the conversation I'm having with an entirely different person to ask me about my opinions about it? 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Acos

[Kontrollo]

3 minutes ago, Acos said:

... then I would ask you to point it out because I am not entirely sure what you think that interaction is supposed to prove for you.

Let's compare then; what you took from that thread, and a few things that I actually wrote there:

2 hours ago, Acos said:

For the sake of conversation, I assume you are disappointed by SilentMobious statement of 2 developers? Obviously our standards on this are going to differ here, but that doesn't sound unreasonable to me given the fact that most of the game had already been developed by that point. I don't feel like SilentMobious does a great job estimating the cost of other staff either; you would need the art team, sound team, input from lead designers, etc etc. I don't think you are going to get the concrete head count you are looking for. 

On 2019-03-24 at 6:27 PM, Kontrollo said:

... Yes, of course, the map guys aren't the same as the devs who are in charge of Conclave balance, and there are of course more people in unrelated fields. That's why i was lowballing the total number, too. If you look around the web, it's not hard to find more information on that. I said quite a bit more than 100, their own website and the wiki say 200+, and on another site it's as high as 300 even. 

So what should be clear is that we're talking about a low single percentage of dev resources here (two years ago, that is). ...

On 2019-03-24 at 9:16 PM, Kontrollo said:

... Now take some time and look at the past updates, you'll notice that there haven't been two fulltime devs in quite a while, it's glaringly obvious to anyone who takes 10 minutes to read through the patch notes. Or why do you think that 2 fulltime developers can't get around to rebalance the latest 4 Warframes for Conclave in almost a year now? ...

Notice something? You asked me to do what should've been your job (back things up) and I've already done that in a previous conversation. How much of what I wrote there has made it into your reply? Do I need to go and quote more?

 

9 minutes ago, Acos said:

I'm not surprised you feel you are having a difficult time communicating with people on this forum given your style of argument. Understand from my perspective what you've done so far is essentially go "I am definitely an expert on this topic, and I totally know what I'm talking about, but you need to go read my post history and wikipedia entries to understand it because I refuse to just tell you what my point is directly and am instead going to keep asking you questions that I think will prove my point for me."

...

No. What's happening here is that I back up what I write, and you don't. I guess I'll leave it at that, since now you're nit picking my "style of argument". Also: I have not refused to acknowledge anything, that's simply slander. You said yourself you can't be bothered to go dig it up. Point out to me where I haven't been honest in what I've written so far.

 

In conclusion, let me simply expand on that last part for you, even if I don't really agree with these points (you don't really back up your stuff yet presume to speak for the devs):

14 minutes ago, Acos said:

1) DE introduced PVP, it isn't popular. 
2) DE attempts to revamp PVP, it isn't popular. 
3) DE safely assumes their playerbase isn't interested in PVP, playerbase continues to thrive and grow without its conclusion. OP is incorrect that DE needs a strong PVP presence to be successful, or that lack of PVP is causing players to quit playing in significant numbers. 

4) Comparatively, DE didn't put a lot of effort into it in the first place (and that's alright because it's not the main focus of the game) and almost none in over half a year . However, they could at least do some basic maintenance because yes, some people enjoy it still, despite all that. Only recently, some unlisted changes made it in and improved the situation, part of that was removing Zaws. Yes, you read that right: removing things makes the game mode better these days.

And here's what you often see instead:

Alternative 4) DE should not put any effort into it and shouldn't have put any effort into it in the first place (because I don't like it).

 

Decide for yourself which stance is more grounded than the other.