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SteelOverseer666

Jim Sterling on Game Difficulty

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9 minutes ago, MystMan said:

Weeelll.... this is the Warframe general forum. We're going to connect some dots to assume that this might be a comparison.  If it wasn't, your first post wasn't really clear. It basically only says to watch a video.  That's it.

And that was literally all I was saying. Watch the video. Why does there need to be a motive? There isn't

Not everything is black and white. Maybe I thought it was an interesting topic but I haven't made my mind up yet  one way or the other and am curious what the people who play my favorite game think on the subject?

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1 minute ago, blazinvire said:

...

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure if you've been following the Sekiro debate or not, or if you're a From Software follower or not. But the thing is: Sekiro doesnt have an easy mode. Souls games never had easy modes. And the same people Jim is defending are the players and game journalists that are upset and calling From Software devs "disrespectful" for not including easy mode in their games. If a game has an easy mode, fine, whatever, I won't complain. But not all games need or should have easy modes, Souls games do not, and people are raging on the internet saying they should have. And Jim pretends to be neutral on the issue while defending those same guys (not to mention the game journalist that defended using hacks to beat Sekiro)

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9 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

In the last warframe devstream steve talks about difficulty. If thats not enough of a reason then I dont know what would please you.

You mean bullet sponge enemies, more enemies that has "shutdown" abilities, and unnecessary invincibility? Those aren't applications of difficulty just cheesy gimmicks to shut us down. The closes thing to actually difficulty is Sortie Lephantis:

  • only the pink spots are vulnerable to damage, but your opportunities to shoot them are reasonable
  • during those opportunities is the same time Lephantis is attacking you, so have to make quick reactions to deal damage while
  • avoiding their attacks and they're not bs like grappling units or those on Orb Vallis

This is what I mean by Warframe's difficulty is not the same as Sekiro's fiasco.

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6 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

You mean bullet sponge enemies, more enemies that has "shutdown" abilities, and unnecessary invincibility? Those aren't applications of difficulty just cheesy gimmicks to shut us down. The closes thing to actually difficulty is Sortie Lephantis:

  • only the pink spots are vulnerable to damage, but your opportunities to shoot them are reasonable
  • during those opportunities is the same time Lephantis is attacking you, so have to make quick reactions to deal damage while
  • avoiding their attacks and they're not bs like grappling units or those on Orb Vallis

This is what I mean by Warframe's difficulty is not the same as Sekiro's fiasco.

And again, did you watch the video? It talks broadly about the CONCEPT of difficulty in video games in general not just Sekiro.

If you didnt watch the video then I find it hard to have a discussion with you about the subject matter contained within said video.

EDIT: And no the instance I am talking about was steve mentioning a difficulty setting. I am trying to find the spot he mentions it to clip it but the streams are so long its hard to find.
 

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1 minute ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

And again, did you watch the video? It talks broadly about difficulty in video games in general not just Sekiro.

So then why was it posted in general discussion? If you just wanted to share this view but not actually tie it to Warframe for relevancy, it would've been better for it to be in off topic. My first post holds no ill will, but seeing this in general discussion with no context to tie Warframe to begs me to ask "what does this have to do with Warframe?".

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1 minute ago, NekroArts said:

So then why was it posted in general discussion? If you just wanted to share this view but not actually tie it to Warframe for relevancy, it would've been better for it to be in off topic. My first post holds no ill will, but seeing this in general discussion with no context to tie Warframe to begs me to ask "what does this have to do with Warframe?".

Well if ya WATCHED THE VIDEO you would probably figure that out lol.

I understand some people dont like Jim and dont want to watch his video's. But if thats the case here then dont watch the video and just leave it at that.

I have already stated if the mods want to move it to off topic they are more then welcome to.

If you want to have a discussion about difficulty through a different lens then Jim Sterling I encourage you to create your own thread.

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Difficulty in Warframe will be impossible to properly implement until all the damage and/or scaling reworks are mostly finalized. At the moment the only difficulty you can experience in Warframe is when you intentionally gimp yourself or forget to change your loadout for the mission because you have so many tools to use to minimize your chance of failing a mission. 

Though I think the implementation of adaptation just made balancing the game way harder than it needed to be.

 

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I think Warframe just needs the right algorithm to control its difficulty, and then you can comfortably tie rewards to it so that challenge is appropriately rewarded and people can play at their own pace without -theoretically- anyone getting upset.
Like if you were to halve the amount of time between rewards in Survival, but double the number of mobs being thrown at your, which would work if it weren't for the fact Warframe's difficulty is broke.

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46 minutes ago, MystMan said:

You watched the video... but did you listen?  He said repeatedly he doesn't care. 

It's a single player game.  People who find a single player game too hard will use cheat codes or hacks. Nobody gave a damn if others beat original Doom using iddqd. It's none of our business what others do in their own game. If a developer puts in difficulty levels, that's ok.  If they don't, that's ok. 

Warframe is an online game, this topic does not and cannot apply to online games.

A difficulty option would be pretty simple. Up level scailing and up the base level of enemies. Use the star chart missions we already have. For rewards, imo focus it more around endo, kuva and upgraded relics. Basically stuff newer players shouldn't really focus on early on. And it would incentivise players to make builds stronger.

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Seeing a topic with Jim Sterling's name on it almost made me wonder if I was on Gamefaqs.

On topic: There is currently too much power creep (in both damage and survivability, seriously adaptation is the "I don't give a [redacted] about enemies" mod) for anything to be difficult, and by building content to try and make sure that power creep can't faceroll through it (looking at you Wolf) you create content that is infuriating to those not at the endgame power creep and STILL easy for those who are, because endgame players in Warframe will never have a single challenge that they can't solve with a Rubico Prime.

One of two things need to happen for Warframe to gain any form of fair challenge:

1: Find a way to balance content for all levels of play, which can create a staleness problem as content won't change from level 1 to 1 million.

Or 2: Kneecap the out-of-control power creep and make all enemy factions equally threatening (but fairly, not "buff all enemies to Grineer eHP") which will cause players reliant or complacent with the power creep to lose their minds.

Its honestly a lose win lose situation no matter how I run the methods in my head because somebody is going to be mad, but honestly considering how many people are already mad I don't think that's much of a problem.

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I don't like Jim Sterling.  He's a textbook case of somebody who wants a game to adapt to his abilities (or lack thereof), rather than he adapting his abilities to the game.  He doesn't want to allocate time to "gitting gud", so he thinks a game should accommodate.  

I complain about a game's feature from time to time.  We all do.  Most of us get the complaint out of our system, suck it up, and try try again.  Jim Sterling does not want to adapt.  He's also the same guy who believes political commentary should be in every major videogame, as long as it aligns with his own personal viewpoint.  Once it doesn't, he will criticize the game for being amoral and regressive.  Soooo.... yeah.  

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I commented this on Jim's video and i say it again:
Yes, easy difficulty won't ruin Dark Souls as a product. But it WILL ruin the community and the reputation that's been built around it. And far as i'm concerned... That's all those games have.

Here's the thing: there's a lot of games out there with difficulty settings. And in some of those games higher difficulties are actually pretty brutal. And yet... Are any of those games remembered for being difficult?... As far as i'm concerned: they're remembered for anything but (if at all).

And then there's everything that FromSoftware put out in the recent years. And one thing that i noticed is that Soulsborne games are celebrated for one thing and one thing only: difficulty.
Not vague, puzzle-like lore made from item descriptions, not tight and responsive combat systems, not careful and delicate approach to simple game design choices, like item and enemy placements.
Difficulty is the only thing that Soulsborne has as a uniquely distinct... i would call it "personality trait".

I believe "Is this just like dark souls?" and "this X is Dark Souls of Y" would not become memes if Dark Souls had a difficulty setting. Because then... It wouldn't be special. At all. Just another RPG.

So you have to understand me when i say that Dark Souls, Bloodborne (and from now on Sekiro) SHOULD NOT have an easy mode.
Any other game, any other developer - sure, go, i don't care. But not these 3. Because then they wouldn't be what they are. The special flavor, the special soul that they have just would not be the same.
And i hope you understand when i say that i'm against that.

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1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure if you've been following the Sekiro debate or not, or if you're a From Software follower or not. But the thing is: Sekiro doesnt have an easy mode. Souls games never had easy modes. And the same people Jim is defending are the players and game journalists that are upset and calling From Software devs "disrespectful" for not including easy mode in their games. If a game has an easy mode, fine, whatever, I won't complain. But not all games need or should have easy modes, Souls games do not, and people are raging on the internet saying they should have. And Jim pretends to be neutral on the issue while defending those same guys (not to mention the game journalist that defended using hacks to beat Sekiro)

Jim says in the video he does not think Sekiro or Dark souls should have difficulty settings added to them. He simply says he understands why people want to make the game easier and that he doesnt care if people mod the game to get that effect.

Again I haven't made up my mind yet one way or the other. I was hoping this discussion would help with that.

Sadly I seem to have to ask this alot in this thread but...Did you watch the whole video? If you didn't why are you taking part in a discussion about said video?

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Ulgh. After watching 100s of his videos, most of which I agreed with wholeheartedly, I can say that I am absolutely sick to death of that bloody Drill Queen opening theme. I started out liking it once upon a time, but now I'd rather hear screeching metal doors for the full 20 seconds of that opening.

Even with his thoughtful discussion and solid (though perhaps not unassailable? I don't know) argument in this episode, I... definitely would not choose this exact episode to recommend Jimquisition to someone new. For one thing, the opening theme sounded much louder in comparison to the audio mixing in his other episodes. And any episode that features the Duke H'ardcore from his Commentocracy videos is going to suffer as a result. If you can stomach the opening bit there is some solid meat to the episode, but I'd suggest a few of his other classics that still stand up as strong arguments (or as heartfelt pleas to the few game developers who still give a damn) first.

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1 minute ago, Artekkor said:

But it WILL ruin the community and the reputation that's been built around it.

I think the Dark Souls community is doing a good enough job ruining itself already.

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1 hour ago, Aldain said:

I think the Dark Souls community is doing a good enough job ruining itself already.

Nah. All you gotta do to counter the easy mode argument is remember that it's changed from "Disabled games can't beat it so accessibility!" to... whatever  the argument is now since that disabled guy posted a video of him  beating it. The whole argument is because games journos don't like hard games because they can't tear through them in a 6 hour session and get on to the next AAA title they wanna review or comment on. (We're gonna leave their relative skills- or lack thereof- out of the 'discussion') 

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2 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

Nah. All you gotta do to counter the easy mode argument is remember that it's changed from "Disabled games can't beat it so accessibility!" to... whatever  the argument is now since that disabled guy posted a video of him  beating it. The whole argument is because games journos don't like hard games because they can't tear through them in a 6 hour session and get on to the next AAA title they wanna review or comment on. (We're gonna leave their relative skills- or lack thereof- out of the 'discussion') 

Kinda not the point I was making, I more mean that the community is hilariously elitist and thinks itself better than anything else because they are good at a game that mostly falls under trial and error gameplay.

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8 минут назад, Aldain сказал:

I think the Dark Souls community is doing a good enough job ruining itself already.

How so? So far the only thing that tears them apart every week or so are debates about invasions and their legitimacy in other games. For Sekiro the only controversial threads are either whining about difficulty and trolls pretending to be that. Otherwise, the community of Git Gud Clan seems to be doing fine.

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59 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Kinda not the point I was making, I more mean that the community is hilariously elitest and thinks itself better than anything else because they are good at a game that mostly falls under trial and error gameplay.

Ah, my bad then, I misunderstood. Being fair, I never got that from the ones I talk to, but they're my friends, so when I say things like "Eh, I don't really like souls style games and wish to hell From Soft would put out another armored core game" we have us a little talk.

That said, None of them have beaten NES Ghosts & Goblins, and I have, so they can't say jack crap about 'git good' to me. Hah! 

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4 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

"Eh, I don't really like souls style games and wish to hell From Soft would put out another armored core game"

...Holy crap somebody else who remembers/likes Armored Core, I thought we were all dead, like the Dodo.

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2 минуты назад, Aldain сказал:

...Holy crap somebody else who remembers/likes Armored Core, I thought they were all dead, like the Dodo.

Funny story. I owned a PS2 once with an armored core... 3, i think? I was very young, probably single digit numbers, did not knew english (not my native language) and could not for the life go past first 2-3 missions because, being a small little bastard, i had no idea what i was doing.
And yet i #*!%ing loved it.

And then my PS2 died and i've never played another Armored Core game ever again. Just seen trailers and what not of newer games, but i'm pretty sure all of them are dirty console exclusives which means our reunion is not meant to be.

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28 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

Now does this actually solve those issues that I mentioned before or is it just merely a level changer? My issue isn't whether or not of having a level changer before the start of mission, it's: does this address those artificial difficulties that DE implemented, hence why I say.

1 hour ago, NekroArts said:

difficulty in Warframe is not the same as this whole Sekiro's fiasco.

Even when this gets implemented and it turns off those features on easy, how is that fair for those that want it to be difficult but are facing artificial difficulty and not legitimate difficulty? It doesn't, that's why I'm not seeing how his video ties into Warframe - it's not tackling the real difficulty issue of this game.

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2 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

Now does this actually solve those issues that I mentioned before or is it just merely a level changer? My issue isn't whether or not of having a level changer before the start of mission, it's: does this address those artificial difficulties that DE implemented, hence why I say.

Even when this gets implemented and it turns off those features on easy, how is that fair for those that want it to be difficult but are facing artificial difficulty and not legitimate difficulty? It doesn't, that's why I'm not seeing how his video ties into Warframe - it's not tackling the real difficulty issue of this game.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree that this is relevant to Warframe.

I am okay with that. 🙂 Have a good day!

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