[Warframe Rework Suggestion] Vauban: Grenades. Mines, and Forts {Response on Devstream 126 and Update 24.5.0 Patch Note Statement}

[K_Shiro]

But most of those changes were only radical in case of a single ability. That's what I meant.

[LascarCapable]

On 2019-04-26 at 10:53 AM, KingOfPredators said:

Traps/deployables only did not worked well so far. I think it is safe to say that vauban should stop being one trick pony.

The problem isn't traps or deployables per say. The problem is that those abilities are absolutely meaningless when you have Bastille in its current form. Traps can work. They just need actual meaningful effects, and Bastille needs either heavy tweaks, a rework, or a flat nerf.

[FoxFX]

13 hours ago, K_Shiro said:

But most of those changes were only radical in case of a single ability. That's what I meant.

 

DE has already stated in the last Devstream [Devstream 126] that they are planning to completely redo Vauban's current kit. We won't know to the extent of what they mean by this, but we can assure that this time he will be changed throughout his entire kit.

[(PSN)sonicizanagi]

If they were to implement a turrent which do you prefer. if it scaled based on how many assists you get with your grenades or would it be more like a potent sentinel with duration. I guess the style would be more like a cannon than a machine gun to make it more satisfying.

[FoxFX]

8 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

If they were to implement a turrent which do you prefer. if it scaled based on how many assists you get with your grenades or would it be more like a potent sentinel with duration. I guess the style would be more like a cannon than a machine gun to make it more satisfying.

 

Neither. The only way I could remotely see such a "turret" ability added into any Warframe that would satisfy both DE and the players (unlike Chroma's "turret") would be one that is limited by a few things:

• Doesn't move around 360 degrees, around so that the turret would not just kill everything around it and could only turn within a small degree range (60 - 90 at best)
• Has a limited amount of them you could bring out (marginally 2 at best)

As I have stated in this article, there are many reasons why a turret is something DE would NOT add into Vauban's arsenal. It is not within their design plans to have an automated ability that could effectively do all the killing for a Warframe and just allow players to AFK almost more than a Rift Limbo in most missions. Even then, there is already a lot of problems with abilities relying on the AI that can cause some unwanted behaviors.

Trust me when I say that a turret ability is not the best answer for Vauban. Just observe how the performance of Chroma's Effigy and understand why DE has left it the way it is (which is technically a turret itself).

[(PSN)sonicizanagi]

2 hours ago, FoxFX said:

 

Neither. The only way I could remotely see such a "turret" ability added into any Warframe that would satisfy both DE and the players (unlike Chroma's "turret") would be one that is limited by a few things:

• Doesn't move around 360 degrees, around so that the turret would not just kill everything around it and could only turn within a small degree range (60 - 90 at best)
• Has a limited amount of them you could bring out (marginally 2 at best)

As I have stated in this article, there are many reasons why a turret is something DE would NOT add into Vauban's arsenal. It is not within their design plans to have an automated ability that could effectively do all the killing for a Warframe and just allow players to AFK almost more than a Rift Limbo in most missions. Even then, there is already a lot of problems with abilities relying on the AI that can cause some unwanted behaviors.

Trust me when I say that a turret ability is not the best answer for Vauban. Just observe how the performance of Chroma's Effigy and understand why DE has left it the way it is (which is technically a turret itself).

I'm not saying that they should I'm just thinking if they fall back on their words like the do sometimes, like how Wisp has 2 abilities that are stationary sustain and damage. Or how they still haven't fix Ravenant abilities due to the redundant and inefficient group of abilities in his kit And the many other frame designs that contradict each other. But a ability that can only continue to attack due to enemy engagement seems to be balanced fairly imo.

[FoxFX]

On 2019-05-09 at 12:05 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

I'm not saying that they should I'm just thinking if they fall back on their words like the do sometimes, like how Wisp has 2 abilities that are stationary sustain and damage. Or how they still haven't fix Ravenant abilities due to the redundant and inefficient group of abilities in his kit And the many other frame designs that contradict each other. But a ability that can only continue to attack due to enemy engagement seems to be balanced fairly imo.

 

Well for now, the previous post described the only logical way a turret that would both satisfy DE and the community could be made.

[(PSN)sonicizanagi]

There is nothing for me to add, I'm impressed with your proposed kit and would like to see D.E use it if possible. And if they stray towards a turrent idea I would like them to consider my ideas to make Vauban's 4 more enjoyable instead of taking what makes Mesa unique.

[Xepthrichros]

Fascinating.

Some time back I suggested a change wherein DE can release an augment for his minelayer, wherein the different mines interact with Bastille and Vortex and dramatically change how the latter 2 work. But these affects only apply when the augment for minelayer is equipped.  Some folks said my suggestions are too little and minor and a slap in the face to those asking for real reworks the past few years.

Then, here comes this topic starter with a lengthy post on reworking 3 out of 4 skills and I see people speaking against him for asking too much.

Anyway, your proposed 4 is generally how I use Tesla in low level defense missions. I spam it all over the area.

As for using my Vauban as a mobile character in mobile game modes like exterminate, I build for efficiency and tankiness, with some range, and drop a Bastille everywhere as I bullet jump around the map shooting and melee-ing stuff.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[FoxFX]

20 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Fascinating.

Some time back I suggested a change wherein DE can release an augment for his minelayer, wherein the different mines interact with Bastille and Vortex and dramatically change how the latter 2 work. But these affects only apply when the augment for minelayer is equipped.  Some folks said my suggestions are too little and minor and a slap in the face to those asking for real reworks the past few years. 

Then, here comes this topic starter with a lengthy post on reworking 3 out of 4 skills and I see people speaking against him for asking too much.

Anyway, your proposed 4 is generally how I use Tesla in low level defense missions. I spam it all over the area.

As for using my Vauban as a mobile character in mobile game modes like exterminate, I build for efficiency and tankiness, with some range, and drop a Bastille everywhere as I bullet jump around the map shooting and melee-ing stuff.

 

I've read your Vauban Bursa suggestion and I understand the appeal on a tech-companion-based rework for Vauban, for the idea on that and your "grenade-quiver" implementation I applaud on the concept.

I feel the general populous overestimate abilities guided by AI in Warframe. AI-based abilities have been reportedly been either too wonky or just too unreliable to use in the long run (examples of Khora's Venari behavior, Chroma's Effigy which is technically a turret to have little payoff, the 2nd ability of Octavia which picks up Mallet but reduces its AOE pulses and constantly moves around a lot).

I believe another companion-based Warframe may appear in the future, but I can't nominate Vauban to be that Warframe...yet. Vauban's kit has involved the uses of grenade/mine tactics and zoning out areas. Part of this rework was to make those grenades actually feel like the devastating tools they are across any level in Warframe.

Thanks for sharing your past experience with Vauban and I find it interesting that the new fourth ability I presented here is something that could be more used in contents.

[Mr.Mist]

Here is my suggestion on defensive/support ability:

#Ability X* : Fortified Station

 

Deploy 1/ 2/ 3/ 4 station kit (Fortified Bubble) which have the following effect: (May choose one, some or all of them.....)

 

-Damage reduction on all allies inside

-Deploy a rampart-like turret (player controlled)

-Allies inside the station is immune to knockdown and immune to nullifier bubble

-Ammo regen (including Archgun ammo and Rampart)

-Somehow Upgrade Air Support deploy ( Mantis Med tower: Heal energy, Xiphos Sentry: Upgraded version, Scimitar carpet bomb: will be recasted every X second, Liset Hack: ????)

 

Augment (provide mobility): Vauban can dash or teleport between station if there is nothing blocking the path from station A to station B

* The level of this ability is based on how many or what effect is used

[FoxFX]

15 hours ago, Mr.Mist said:

Here is my suggestion on defensive/support ability:

#Ability X* : Fortified Station

 

Deploy 1/ 2/ 3/ 4 station kit (Fortified Bubble) which have the following effect: (May choose one, some or all of them.....)

 

-Damage reduction on all allies inside

-Deploy a rampart-like turret (player controlled)

-Allies inside the station is immune to knockdown and immune to nullifier bubble

-Ammo regen (including Archgun ammo and Rampart) 

-Somehow Upgrade Air Support deploy ( Mantis Med tower: Heal energy, Xiphos Sentry: Upgraded version, Scimitar carpet bomb: will be recasted every X second, Liset Hack: ????)

 

Augment (provide mobility): Vauban can dash or teleport between station if there is nothing blocking the path from station A to station B

* The level of this ability is based on how many or what effect is used

 

I can see in a balance design that is may appear a bit too much. The whole quiver thing would mean that in some way the wall effect would be omitted if DE would implement it. It also seems you added a hard counter to nullifiers which I feel would be the last thing DE would make a Warframe ability do at this time.

Having the ability be some ammo regen could give Vauban some appeal especially if the ammo regen provided something else for each ammo recovered.

[Mr.Mist]

1 hour ago, FoxFX said:

 

I can see in a balance design that is may appear a bit too much. The whole quiver thing would mean that in some way the wall effect would be omitted if DE would implement it. It also seems you added a hard counter to nullifiers which I feel would be the last thing DE would make a Warframe ability do at this time.

Having the ability be some ammo regen could give Vauban some appeal especially if the ammo regen provided something else for each ammo recovered.

the possibility i place is not quiver like ability.. but like apply one or two things from those possible effects

[MrHanBrolo]

It would be nice if - as a tactician - Vauban was the only frame that had the ability to disable / destroy the nullifier bubbles with his Jammer or some other replacement trap. It would make his utility great in hallway situations and in areas where enemies could pour in you would be able to disable them before they get into the room.

[FoxFX]

8 hours ago, PureBanshee said:

It would be nice if - as a tactician - Vauban was the only frame that had the ability to disable / destroy the nullifier bubbles with his Jammer or some other replacement trap. It would make his utility great in hallway situations and in areas where enemies could pour in you would be able to disable them before they get into the room.

 

It could be possible if an Augment for Jammer included this but I feel in DE's eyes that would be quite a stretch.

The only enemies we see having Nullifiers are obviously in higher level Corpus fights and in Sortie-level Hijack (which not a lot of players do that game mode anyways), and the only ability all players can get access to permanently destroy Nullifiers is through the Miter Mod: Neutralizing Justice.

Having Jammer deal with Nullifers is possible, but we have to expect that DE maybe at the fence on that idea.

[FoxFX]

On 2019-05-20 at 11:39 AM, Mr.Mist said:

the possibility i place is not quiver like ability.. but like apply one or two things from those possible effects

Ah, I understand where you are coming from now.