Nezhas Blazing Chakram still needs some work

[Genoscythe]

I've spent quite a lot of time with the new Nezha now and while the rework has made the frame a lot more viable there is one small thing that could see some minor improvements. The only thing that really holds Nezha back a lot is the Blazing Chakram abilitiy, as it plays a lot too wonky and unreliable to be on-par with simply shooting stuff a lot of times.

The issue here is the way it does bounce from enemy to enemy in a very unreliable way, sometimes only hitting one enemy when thrown into a crowd, sometimes bouncing into cover and then spending some more time bouncing around the environment instead of immediately coming back. This partly applies to the charged throw, which could really use some cover punch-through because as soon as it hits a little edge that has a hitbox it will bounce back, limiting its use a lot and wasting energy. Lastly, I think the flying speed of the chakram is a bit low, it's one of the only abilities that has something akin to a cooldown, and when fighting crowds you constantly need to spam it to distribute the debuff.

The charged throw seems to sometimes not hit enemies on the way back when used on ragdolled/impaled enemies, heavily limiting the use of the reaping chakram augment.

On the matter of chakram multiplication when hitting enemies affected by divine spears it's the same, after multiplying the chakrams sometimes ignore enemies or don't hit them at all. This issue get's especially bad on vertical positions or really uneven terrain. Lastly, the debuff does not work on dropships for some reason.

Suggestions to make Blazing Chakram a more usable and reliable ability:

- Increase flying speed

- When not hitting anything heavily increase return speed

- Give (more?) object punch-through to the charged throw

- Make the bouncing from enemy to enemy more reliable

- Make sure Charged throw actually hits enemies another time on the way back

- Make the debuff consistently apply to all targets hit by the chakram

It would be really nice if this ability could get some more love, as it kinda is the 'bread and butter' skill of Nezha.

Some footage of the bounciness and chakram flying into nothingness instead of returning issue: The chakram could have bounced into the enemies close to the initial impact target, but instead goes to the right and then flies into the landscape, taking an extra-long time to return.

https://streamable.com/1ad95

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Genoscythe
MR1 in video editing

[Walkampf]

I noticed issues with the ability as well, so i think i can narrow the issue down.

I think most issues boil down to the chakram having a very larger object-box.

Throwing it in a narrow corridor usually makes it return immediatly, since it bounces off of walls and objects.

[LascarCapable]

I do remember charkram feeling inconsistant from time to time, either not giving the debuff or not bouncing as intended from enemy to enemy. I also remember having trouble comboing it with divine spears : sometimes hitting an enemy impaled on the spears does not trigger the chakram duplication effect.

This requires more testing.

[Walkampf]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb D20:

either not giving the debuff or not bouncing as intended from enemy to enemy

This is exacly what I mean.

I have the feeling, the Chakrams hitbox is even larger than what is displayed.

I often get the feeling that it doesn't actually hit the enemy and instead collides with some random edge and changes direction without actually hitting an enemy. So it can't apply the debuff because it hasn't actually hit the enemy.

The reason why I think this is the case is, because on the Plains and in the Vallis the Chakram works a lot more consistent because ot the huge flat surfaces you are moving on.

[Genoscythe]

Il y a 3 heures, D20 a dit :

I do remember charkram feeling inconsistant from time to time, either not giving the debuff or not bouncing as intended from enemy to enemy. I also remember having trouble comboing it with divine spears : sometimes hitting an enemy impaled on the spears does not trigger the chakram duplication effect.

This requires more testing.

I just made some footage of some of the issues, will update OP later

Il y a 2 heures, Walkampf a dit :

This is exacly what I mean.

I have the feeling, the Chakrams hitbox is even larger than what is displayed.

I often get the feeling that it doesn't actually hit the enemy and instead collides with some random edge and changes direction without actually hitting an enemy. So it can't apply the debuff because it hasn't actually hit the enemy.

The reason why I think this is the case is, because on the Plains and in the Vallis the Chakram works a lot more consistent because ot the huge flat surfaces you are moving on. 

I feel like you can also see the inconsistency of chakram in the open world maps.

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Genoscythe

[Walkampf]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Genoscythe:

I feel like you can also see the inconsistency of chakram in the open world maps.

Yes, as i wrote:

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Walkampf:

(...)Chakram works a lot more consistent(...)

I didn't write it was perfect.

But there is a very notable difference.

[Genoscythe]

il y a 10 minutes, Walkampf a dit :

Yes, as i wrote:

I didn't write it was perfect.

But there is a very notable difference.

I agree, if there are no minor hitboxes around and you have clear lines stuff get's a bit less wonky, especially for the charge throw.

 

Updated OP with gif.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Genoscythe

[LascarCapable]

7 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

I agree, if there are no minor hitboxes around and you have clear lines stuff get's a bit less wonky, especially for the charge throw.

 

Updated OP with gif.

Your gif doesn't load. Can you try to use another website ?

Streamable might do the trick.

[Genoscythe]

il y a 13 minutes, D20 a dit :

Your gif doesn't load. Can you try to use another website ?

Streamable might do the trick.

Tried it with streamable, hope it works now. I'm kinda new into making GIFs and video editing.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Genoscythe

[LascarCapable]

43 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

Tried it with streamable, hope it works now. I'm kinda new into making GIFs and video editing.

Works perfectly, though I'm worried a bit too much stuff happens in your gif to make everything look obvious enough. If I were you, I'd retry in the simulacrum on paused enemies. It's a much nicer place if you need to demonstrate a bug.

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, Walkampf said:

 

I have the feeling, the Chakrams hitbox is even larger than what is displayed.

 

It's a quibble, but I don't think the hitbox is larger than what's displayed--or if it is, it's not a substantial difference.  I just think the projectile is HUGE, and we're used to being able to hit with almost anything else that's straight down our sight line.  I get a bit of the same problem with the Miter, and its blades are tiny compared to Chakram.

That said, I think making its hitbox much smaller than displayed would help a lot.   I'm pretty used to it, but I still misfire sometimes on the first hit, let alone the bounces.    And I feel like some people new to Nezha probably give up on Chakram in disgust before they figure out its quirks. 

And if they're giving up on Chakram, they're probably giving up on Nezha eventually.

I also feel like it still has that old problem (supposedly fixed) where it's not as reliable bouncing off of robotic enemies, although I haven't been able to replicate that in the Simulacrum.

[Genoscythe]

Il y a 1 heure, D20 a dit :

Works perfectly, though I'm worried a bit too much stuff happens in your gif to make everything look obvious enough. If I were you, I'd retry in the simulacrum on paused enemies. It's a much nicer place if you need to demonstrate a bug.

Did that on purpose, because actual gameplay is a lot different from simulacrum, enemy types, terrain, movement, the real combat situations you encounter during a mission can't be recreated there. I agree that a lot happens on that gif, though, it should be clear to see the flight path of the chak though. Next time I might just upload a longer video on youtube. Got any hints on a reliable recording/editing software and a decent gif-creator?

[Andele3025]

Nah, chakram mostly works (close to same way how nekros soul punch, where angle it bounces depends on enemy type and angle of cast/projectile in this case), tho there is a real issue with a decent chunk of enemies that get speared being immune/slipping off and then not counting as hit by the spear thus they wont/dont produce any duplicate rings (some moas, ospreys, mook versions of hyena pack, etc).

Tho wouldnt be against making it always do the spear aimbot towards other enemies on bounce instead of being hit angle dependent.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Andele3025

[Genoscythe]

Il y a 9 heures, Andele3025 a dit :

Nah, chakram mostly works (close to same way how nekros soul punch, where angle it bounces depends on enemy type and angle of cast/projectile in this case), tho there is a real issue with a decent chunk of enemies that get speared being immune/slipping off and then not counting as hit by the spear thus they wont/dont produce any duplicate rings (some moas, ospreys, mook versions of hyena pack, etc).

Tho wouldnt be against making it always do the spear aimbot towards other enemies on bounce instead of being hit angle dependent.

"Mostly works" isn't good enough, when you use an ability you need to be sure if it will work and how it will work. The ricochet behaviour is completely random and often gives out less than you were expecting, even when throwing it into a crowd it will sometimes just hit one enemy, soul punch always flies in a straight line and you know where it lands (though Nekros is a cripple combat-ability-wise but that's stuff for a whole new thread). The chakram ability clearly has issues that can be easily fixed without much effort.

The normal throw is supposed to be useful against irregularily placed groups of enemies, which it isn't, while charged throw could be a hallway clearer/single target damage, which can do in a limited way.

I have also encountered the duplication issues you described on divine spears too, especially with some ospreys and enemies that can't be ragdolled.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Genoscythe

[Andele3025]

1 minute ago, Genoscythe said:

"Mostly works" isn't good enough, when you use an ability you need to be sure if it will work and how it will work. The ricochet behaviour is completely random and often gives out less than you were expecting, even when throwing it into a crowd it will sometimes just hit one enemy, soul punch always flies in a straight line and you know where it lands (though Nekros is a cripple combat-ability-wise but that's stuff for a whole new thread). The chakram ability clearly has issues that can be easily fixed without much effort.

The normal throw is supposed to be useful against irregularily placed groups of enemies, which it isn't, while charged throw could be a hallway clearer/single target damage, which can do in a limited way.

I have also encountered the duplication issues you described on divine spears too, especially with some ospreys and enemies that can't be ragdolled.

Soul Punch soul actually exits the target depending on the angle of both the targets targeting center (usually body) AND elevation/angle of cast from nekros (why slide 1 doesnt do anything while jump/higher elevation results in the tenno space program of the soul; with casts from the diagonal side and above the enemy having really weird results depending on the enemy type) and the bounce mechanic isnt actually entirely random, it too depends on cast and the part of the hitbox the hoop hits, its why sliding and aiming for the belt of grineer troops will usually result in the 4~full 5 bounces while hitting the head or shoulder tends to yeet the ring into the roof (ofc hitbox shenanigans make it less than 100% reliable, but its a solid trend/would be scientifically significant enough for a strong causation link). More importantly most of the issues even then with chakram are solved with his 4 which makes for a good drive to use it in aoe situations as a single target debuff the hoop works guaranteed. Same way how titania shaves off a solid 50% of most of her cast times when casting in air.
Not that, as i already said, id be against the bounces having full proper aimbot, but the current mechanics really dont hurt unless one either isnt using spears OR the enemies are bugged. And its the bugged enemies part that (at least IMO) is truly a bad thing when playing hula hoop boi/doesnt feel good when the game says no when you did all you could correctly.

[LascarCapable]

20 hours ago, Genoscythe said:

Did that on purpose, because actual gameplay is a lot different from simulacrum, enemy types, terrain, movement, the real combat situations you encounter during a mission can't be recreated there. I agree that a lot happens on that gif, though, it should be clear to see the flight path of the chak though. Next time I might just upload a longer video on youtube. Got any hints on a reliable recording/editing software and a decent gif-creator?

I'm not an expert about recording software so I can't really tell you how to configure one. I just know that OBS (Open Broadcast Software) is free and seemingly popular.

[Genoscythe]

Il y a 21 heures, Andele3025 a dit :

....and the bounce mechanic isnt actually entirely random, it too depends on cast and the part of the hitbox the hoop hits, its why sliding and aiming for the belt of grineer troops will usually result in the 4~full 5 bounces while hitting the head or shoulder tends to yeet the ring into the roof (ofc hitbox shenanigans make it less than 100% reliable, but its a solid trend/would be scientifically significant enough for a strong causation link). More importantly most of the issues even then with chakram are solved with his 4 which makes for a good drive to use it in aoe situations as a single target debuff the hoop works guaranteed. Same way how titania shaves off a solid 50% of most of her cast times when casting in air.

The chakram might have something like a bounce logic applied to it, but it also can just simply pass through an enemy you hit from the front and hit an enemy behind it. It's of course not completely random, because then it would almost never hit more than one enemy, but way too random to be used effectively against even smaller groups. Argumenting with the Divine spears seems odd, as you should not have to cast your 4 for additional 100 energy to be able to reliably distribute the debuff of the chakram. It's OK that the 4 has synergy, but an ability has to be viable by itself first.

 

Il y a 21 heures, Andele3025 a dit :

Not that, as i already said, id be against the bounces having full proper aimbot, ...

What exactly do you mean with aimbot? Complete homing? Perfect bounces until all enemies are hit?

Il y a 20 heures, D20 a dit :

I'm not an expert about recording software so I can't really tell you how to configure one. I just know that OBS (Open Broadcast Software) is free and seemingly popular.

Alrighty, thanks!