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Arbitrations Revisited

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Arbitrations are tedious. Here's why:

  • rounds take too long to get at rewards
  • enemies become immune to warframe powers (even though the mode offers to buff power strength to certain frames ???) and cannot be mopped up to speed up rounds
  • revive restriction, broken enemy scaling result in a forced tank meta prevailing if you don't want to burden your team

Instead of high adrenaline high difficulty rushes you are forced into a slog through treacle. These changes don't address the concerns expressed above, nor do they actually solve the problem of players and dying. Chances are if a player died, they were not properly prepared and will keep dying, burdening their team. Thus just leaving them seems to be a better option, since you are being forced into debuffing yourself to help them out in an already restrictive game mode!

Arbitrations need a fundamental change with regards to how to work and reward. Right now it's not really an endgame mode but a soul-less slog for barebones chances at rewards.

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As long time player who basically doesn't play Arbitrations...

Absolutely none of these changes have any appeal to me, and really just annoy me.

  • The rewards didn't ever seem worthwhile for the amount of time required to obtain them.
  • 10 minutes/waves per reward is just too long for the rubbish clutter in the table.
  • No revives is just Warframe gatchas in full force and punishes playing anything but Undying tanks (complete opposites of what your bonuses were trying for)
    • Warframe has too many "oops you just instant die" things going on as levels scale up. Plasma Grenades, Toxin Ancients, Corpus Nullifer Scrambus Combras weapons.
    • The option to pick up revives for dead team mates does not change this.

I don't see any of your changes making me want to play Arbitration any more then the absolute minimum I already do. The meta will remain undying frames, with weapons for taking out the Arbitration Drones ASAP. Nothing else maters.

Hurry up and get on with the Dynamic personal (forget locking it behind clans) Antagonist (Shadow of War) system.

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What i want the most is a reduction in time for the rewords, survival every 5 min, defence every 5 waves etc. A faster scailing than normal, cuz at the moment arbitration is way to boring to play. The one life was ok whit me. And as for rewords add the vailed rivens for all weapon tipes to be purchased whit vitus essence, so that the scummy riven trades dont ask for 1k+ platinum for a riven (its a mod why does it have to be so expensive). Thank you for your continuing work in making this game better.

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My feedback is simple: Make the drones more interesting. Not invulnerability. Since players are getting 300% something, have drones give 300% something. 

  • healing.
  • Elemental damage types (I'd say do the base and 2 drones can make for combo types instead of 600%)
  • Speed like they are under the effect of a speed Nova
  • shields
  • armor

Second feed back: How about some boss encounters show up. I think it would be neat to see an assassination show up every 5 minutes and go, "I have been chosen to test you." and one of the warframes with AI control pop in and attacks like a nightmare specter.

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13 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

The most polarizing of these issues is Arbitrations’ lack of revives.

I understand that players have only one live and then game over, but this doesn't encourage teamwork. I wish there was/will be a bleedout state.

13 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Therefore, we will be implementing a new system where dead players can be revived - but your squadmates will have to earn it.

Hm... interesting, how this will interact with vazarin focus school.

13 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

the rules of Arbitration death will be a little different: players are still killed with no bleedout timer, but a revive tower will be placed at the player’s spot of death.

13 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

the Arbitration drones will begin dropping unique pickups known as a “Resurgence Burden”. These pickups function similar to Index points (otherwise known as “Financial Stress”), debuffing the players who carry them. 

Debuff in same was as index? And Why 5?


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I've a question for DE, mainly because it's something I could see being overlooked during internal testing

Atm, you're rewarded at every 10 wave/min/etc you're alive, not by getting to the end and having survived x number of 10 (or 2 for Excav)

Answer me this:

I die at 19:50 - and it takes my squad 30s to bring me back. So I'm alive at around 20:25 and missed the 20min tick 

Did you account for that by say - dying within +/- 30s of the timer, rewarding you anyway if your squad is alive? Because otherwise, that's going to be an issue you'll hear a lot about

Also, I liked the no revives, it just made certain modes stupid (I never do Defense since it's a living target - same with Defection - in Arbitrations, especially when Survival and Excav is 100 times easier). 

If anything, I feel you should find the modes that are most popular (again, I'd imagine Survival and Excav), focus on just these modes and put twists on them (similar to Kuva Survival maybe? and maybe Excav have some modifier scaling with each consecutive Excavator you finish without destroying one) for some bonus objective of sorts

Maybe I'm wrong and people love Defense and Defection Arbitrations, but they just seem significantly harder to "control"

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This is just a bodge to help hide the fact that host migration is still incredibly broken and loses all sorts of state- even when you do migrate to the same mission type with most of the same people. Yawn.

Can't fix it? Hide it with weird vestigial kludges and post-hoc rationalisation.

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Having a single life is not the main problem of arbitration in my opinion. It has other problems:

  • Rewards are bad (i have hundreds of ayatans from sorties, no need for even more) and to sparse (give them every round).
  • The drones are preventing most frames and weapons from being viable because abilities are useless and area-damage is needed to take out the drones when they hide among other enemies.
  • Host migrations are bad in every mission, but arbitration is a prime example why they should finally be fixed

And the changes make the gamemode worse, not better. Why not give a single "normal" bleedout and revive instead of this hassle. So everybody gets a second chance, but you are not forced to constantly get a debuff to revive useless teammates.

And on the topic of archgun-rivens:

If you add even more rivens, finally increase or remove the limit on the number of rivens i can have. I stopped doing sorties because everytime i get a riven i have to muse which of the existing ones i dissolve. I bought 90 Slots even though imo the price of them is too high (i am a senior developer, if they produce so much load on your database, you should scrap your datamodel). And i would buy more if you gave me a chance to give you more platinum. A limit on the number of slots you can buy makes no sense for gameplay or economics.

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I would rather you added more warframe and weapon buffs instead of strength and damage. 

I don't even look at the buffs when joining arbitrations, 

Range? Duration? Efficiency? Armor? Speed? 

Fire rate? Magazine? CD? Status chance? 

Might actually use some other build than an arbitrary Inaros. 

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As always, I like to start my posts by saying I love the game, love how the Devs are constantly striving to improve the game, and love how DE has some of the best business practices in the industry. What I don't love though, is that DE still does not seem to have the right mindset when it comes to creating content for veteran players.

A game mode apparently specifically designed for veteran players should have DIFFICULTY + SCALING REWARDS. Getting enemy scaling back to normal is a step in the right direction, but it is extremely concerning that enemy scaling was made easier in the first place. Please don't ever repeat this mistake again, when it comes to content for veteran players, or you risk alienating some of your most loyal players (and I am guessing some of the biggest "whales" when it comes to Prime Access and plat purchases).

Anything that DE implements that enhances DIFFICULTY + SCALING REWARDS in such a game mode, would be a step in the right direction. Anything that DE implements that does not, is not.

So.... clearly, implementing revives in Arbitration is the exact opposite of what should be done. Revives in Arbitration would be wrong-headed and misguided, just like how easier enemy scaling in Arbitration is wrong-headed and misguided.

I understand the point of how revives mitigates the host migration issues, but this is merely a band-aid over a gaping wound (that has a bleed proc on it). I also understand that this is a relic of Warframe's early development choices, and would be hard to change. But we need DE to indicate clearly that the host migration mechanics WILL be changed, and that someone is looking into it. It will take time, it may take months or years.... but we need to know this WILL be changed. Please do this, it's important.

Also, making the teammates who are still alive EARN the fallen one's revive... makes no sense. The proposed revive mechanics gives me no incentive whatsoever to revive a fallen teammates, but gives multiple DIS-incentive to revive them. If a player comes into a "harder" game mode, and falls... that's what happens when you play a "harder" game mode and are not properly prepared, why should I go out of my way to revive them, while incurring health debuffs and risking the success of my run? Once this revive is implemented, I for one will not be reviving anyone who falls, and I don't expect anyone to revive me if I fall.

Ten minutes between rewards is way too long, adjust that down to the normal five minutes please. And please make the rewards scale better the longer we go. I really only play Arbitrations Survival, so I'll speak more directly to that. As someone who hangs out in MOT a lot, the current Arbitrations Survival feels too easy (due to nerfed enemy scaling), too unnecessarily drawn out (due to 10 minutes betw rewards), and doesn't give me reasons to stay longer (due to no scaling rewards).

Please implement an option for players to choose tougher enemies right off the bat. For example, to start with Level 100 enemies, or start with Level 150 enemies and so on. Normal enemy scaling, no silly business with nerfed enemy scaling please. If you choose to start with tougher enemies, then of course you get better rewards, and the rewards scale the longer you can survive. Rewards should be every 5 minutes, not 10. This will make Arbitration more challenging (YAY!), shorter and more intense if you want it to be (YAY!), while those who enjoy endurance runs will no doubt still find numerous ways to survive for a long time and reap the delicious scaling rewards (YAY!!!!!)

Look... without downplaying the hardwork of implementation and development... we need DE to get the guiding principles of a "harder" game mode right, and it's really simple. DIFFICULTY + SCALING REWARDS.

Players who want easier content already has the rest of the game, please.... let us veterans have the DIFFICULTY + SCALING REWARDS we want. That's all we are saying.


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4 hours ago, tarfeef101 said:

Still too much endo, not enough ephemera, peculiar mods, awesome weapons, skins, or anything else vets might care about. I don't recall the last time I cared about endo

I don't like my drop tables diluted with one-time, non-tradable, cosmetic junk. These just turn into 2500 credit cache rewards after the first time.

I do however like Endo. Endo will always be useful. Either for maxing my own mods, or maxing duplicates to trade, endo is never a wasted resource. If you want DE to add other stuff to the reward structure, it should be added into the vitus redemption.



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All I have to say is this. This does not fix the problem with Arbitrations you just made the problem worst if you put this in the game because every player is not on the same level and players like me come to a game mode like this for difficulty and maybe try to shine on those who die but now with this players that are dead will be spamming revived me. Lets try fixing host migration and let permadeath stay permanent

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It is good for friends-only-team, nightmare for online matched team.
This changes unprepared players as challengers to impeder.
Newbies will be subjected to a torrent of abuse at Arbitration, I guess.

Online Matching will not work better at high difficulty  contents, so  adding some keys like Orokin Derelict  whould be smart answer for that PROBLEMS.

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29 minutes ago, LanceAtredeis said:

 please.... let us veterans have the DIFFICULTY + SCALING REWARDS we want. That's all we are saying.

As a vet, I am not saying this.

I recognize that scaling rewards are a very tough thing to implement without significant negative impact on the rest of the game. i also recognize that "difficulty" is far from a term that has an agreed upon definition.

So yeah, my counter as a vet is "please ignore this person they do not speak for me"

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb OvisCaedo:

...And, anything about how tedious and drawn-out feeling a lot of the mission types are?

The issue about Arbitrations is not their difficulty... its that they are boring and super slow.
I will probably never set a foot in there again since I was lucky enough to obtain the Seeding Step Ephemera on my 8th run.
The boringness was so ... gnah.

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That's all good and dandy, but, what about 5 round Rotation? I don't mind 10 rounds/minutes rots but keep in mind that the rewards do not scale,feels like wasted time, imo even fissures can be more rewarding, granted there's the vitus shop, but regardless we need something to drive us to be in that mission, scalling rewards not just in the arbitration but across the game, however arbitration could be a "test" game mode when it comes to this

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14 hours ago, dziellsGamer said:

Now can we get someone to look at the incraments we get rewards at? 10 min or 10 waves is just to long for just 1 A reward and 30 min or 30 waves for 1 A, 1 B, and only 1 C reward? Excavation missions can get rewards much faster as well so what point is there to doing surv, defection, or defense if excavation can get 1 reward about 4 min faster than a Surv, defense, or defection


14 hours ago, Clem2-TheClemening said:

The problem wasn't the death mechanics. It was that the missions are too long and therefore boring.


14 hours ago, CaptainMeowth said:

The thing that's keeping me out of the arbitrations is their duration. So... I think I'll still pass. :s

And yet people like to recall the "glory days of Void Keys and endless missions".   

I don't think this community knows -what- they want >.>

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This is a copypasta from my old post on forum:

Arbitrations are missions designed for veterans of the game, both for the level of difficulty and for the single "life" granted.
Given this, I still believe that they were very badly conceived.
They are boring, tedian, and with not really adequate rewards, I speak in particular for the defenses, 10 WAVES to defend that guy who does nothing but go and put himself in the most unlikely places to receive an ayatan sculpture (not even full, at least in the sanctuary) the relics are radiant) is not gratifying.
The survivals? You can do whatever you want, also form a team of 24 Nekros, 32 Hydroid and 57 Ivara (plus Trinity, you never know) but in the end the oxygen will end and you will be forced to go out, not by your choice, but by choice of game, and this is not gratifying.
The defections? OH GOD.
I don't even play the normal defections that are the worst kind of mission ever conceived, and that's all.
Excavation and Interceptions are playable and balanced, with the right team you can stay in the game as much as you want, the problem is that are REALLY boring.

THESE are the real problems of arbitrations, and now I would like to propose, if I can, the following improvements:

1-Maintain the current "double rotation" system (10 minutes instead of 5 in the surv, 10 waves in the defenses etc ...) and C rotation "fixed (ABCCCCCCC ...) but over time increase significantly the rewards after the first rotation C, for example:
Arbitrations survival
first rotation C = 2000 Endo / Orta / Mod
second = 2500 / Orta with a star / Mod
third = 3000 / Orta with 2 stars / Mod
fourth = 3500 / Orta with 3 stars / Mod
fifth = 4000 / Orta with all the stars/Mod
sixth = 4500 / Una Orta with all the stars and an empty one/Mod
etc. etc

Surely a system of rewards so structured (maybe even for normal missions and not just arbitrations) would encourage players to stay in the game for longer.

2-The enemies in survival must drop more oxygen, I don't have to feel obliged to play with Nekros, and you have to correct the wrong spawn of the enemies since many times I find myself on the map with 1-2 enemies and obviously do not give oxygen ...

3-The defenses must be changed, instead of the guy put the cryopod.

4-Gradually increase the vitus essence obtained, as the rotations pass:
etc etc.

For now I can't think of anything else, if I have other suggestions I'll edit the post.
Thank you.

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16 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

When these changes go live next week on PC (and consoles in the near future), the rules of Arbitration death will be a little different: players are still killed with no bleedout timer, but a revive tower will be placed at the player’s spot of death. If any squadmate is awaiting revive, the Arbitration drones will begin dropping unique pickups known as a “Resurgence Burden”. These pickups function similar to Index points (otherwise known as “Financial Stress”), debuffing the players who carry them. 

Don't really like to have a debuff because accidentally took “Resurgence Burden” .

Would be better if those “Resurgence Burden” won't be auto-pickuptable. Like with Ayatan Star make for it an icon on Mini-Map and HUD and to pick up you should press X (by default).

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15 hours ago, Zyneris said:

I'm very curious as to why the burden of hosting missions is still placed on the player rather than on DE at this junction. I'm going to safely assume that the lack of hardware is probably the biggest leader, however, does DE plan to move towards taking the burden off players?

I feel like this change is not a fix, but rather another bandaid to a larger issue (the issue mentioned above).

If hosting is removed from the players, this removes the need for crutches such as this, as well as, help alleviate other host migration issues in other modes.

Again, I'm sure it's not something can happen overnight, but I'm wondering if this is even in the long-term roadmap.

This will only be a decent measure if they're planning on installing servers ON all their regions FOR al their regions (Meaning, a server in south america for region south america, an european server for region europe, and such). If not, everyone playing outside canada/the US is gonna be royally screwed  >.<

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  • The drones that give invulnerability and power immunity.
  • And the 10 minute timers instead of 5.

These are the biggest turn-offs.
Scaling enemies is a step in the good direction.
But hand in hand with 10 minute marks...

Just makes it more tedious.
People will just be leaving at the first 10 minutes now.

The revival pods are a nice idea.
But it comes indeed down, to; who will be sacrificing themselves to pick them up?
When having an energy-dependent frame, you don't want to see it hit 0 energy in the timespan of 0.1 seconds due to the burden.
Not to mention walking around with 10 hp...

And if nobody picks them up, it still leaves an agitated dead player asking; 'why isn't anybody doing anything?'
If even a revival in normal bleedout (from regular missions),
is sometimes too much for some players. (As they daintily prance just past you)

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Personally, i feel the biggest issue is with mission time. As a lot of people have said... most missions take just too much time to end each round (and hence get the rewards), to the point it kinda gets boring.

¿Could it be possible to use the system of the "resurgence burden" to shorten mission time? Like, drones come and die and drop the thingys. So besides the revival tower spawning, let's say on each map a sort of "time altar" spawns in too. So if you can get let's say, five or ten of this resurgence burden thingys to the time altar, you get to cut mission time in... idk, something reasonable, let's say a minute off.

Then, too, since (i believe, correct me if i'm wrong) the mission is advancing faster, so would the scaling...

Just an idea, pretty sure it can be improved upon.

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