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15 hours ago, Zyneris said:

I'm very curious as to why the burden of hosting missions is still placed on the player rather than on DE at this junction. I'm going to safely assume that the lack of hardware is probably the biggest leader, however, does DE plan to move towards taking the burden off players?

I feel like this change is not a fix, but rather another bandaid to a larger issue (the issue mentioned above).

If hosting is removed from the players, this removes the need for crutches such as this, as well as, help alleviate other host migration issues in other modes.

Again, I'm sure it's not something can happen overnight, but I'm wondering if this is even in the long-term roadmap.

This will only be a decent measure if they're planning on installing servers ON all their regions FOR al their regions (Meaning, a server in south america for region south america, an european server for region europe, and such). If not, everyone playing outside canada/the US is gonna be royally screwed  >.<

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  • The drones that give invulnerability and power immunity.
  • And the 10 minute timers instead of 5.

These are the biggest turn-offs.
Scaling enemies is a step in the good direction.
But hand in hand with 10 minute marks...

Just makes it more tedious.
People will just be leaving at the first 10 minutes now.

The revival pods are a nice idea.
But it comes indeed down, to; who will be sacrificing themselves to pick them up?
When having an energy-dependent frame, you don't want to see it hit 0 energy in the timespan of 0.1 seconds due to the burden.
Not to mention walking around with 10 hp...

And if nobody picks them up, it still leaves an agitated dead player asking; 'why isn't anybody doing anything?'
If even a revival in normal bleedout (from regular missions),
is sometimes too much for some players. (As they daintily prance just past you)

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Personally, i feel the biggest issue is with mission time. As a lot of people have said... most missions take just too much time to end each round (and hence get the rewards), to the point it kinda gets boring.

¿Could it be possible to use the system of the "resurgence burden" to shorten mission time? Like, drones come and die and drop the thingys. So besides the revival tower spawning, let's say on each map a sort of "time altar" spawns in too. So if you can get let's say, five or ten of this resurgence burden thingys to the time altar, you get to cut mission time in... idk, something reasonable, let's say a minute off.

Then, too, since (i believe, correct me if i'm wrong) the mission is advancing faster, so would the scaling...

Just an idea, pretty sure it can be improved upon.

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You couldn't have come up with worse changes if you tried, literally not a single one is positive. Business as usual at Digital Extremes I suppose.

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i see a lot that people think 10min rounds are to long, that players now leave at 10 min out of boredom.

Well the players who now leave at 10 will also leave at 5, if you get bored within 10 minutes, this gameplay might not for you.

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Most exiting part of arbitration for me? Permadeath that forces me to think and build my frame to survive better and the feeling that death is closer than on usual mission. Never had any issue with it. Host migration is minor problem here. Do not do this, please.

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is permadeath really the problem with arbitrations though ? I think the problem is more time and frustration:

  • First frustration. When dying, players have only two choices:

- quit and lose everything...

- spectate and wait for the others to complete the mission to keep your rewards and vitus essence.

which is not really a choice at all : lose your loot or lose your time ? no good options

 

  • Second time. Arbitrations are too long for the rewards they give. For example survival takes 10 minutes per reward, so 30 minutes to get 1 shot at rotation C rewards (which is going to be 2000 endo again)... meanwhile 30 min void survival gives 6 relics guaranteed... Plus, it also adds to the frustration as players who choose to spectate have to wait very long for other players to finish the job... I may also add that it is not really effective at making the gamemode "elite"... surviving 30 minutes isn't hard, it is just not rewarding enough if you need to add 10 more minutes again...

 

I think giving the option to dead players to bail out without losing their rewards would greatly reduce frustration (which may be difficult to implement, and may cause host migrations... but there are already host migration issues anyway)

Plus, reducing time to normal missions may actually motivate more players to do arbitrations as it wil feel more rewarding... (bringing enemy scaling back to normal would go well with that...)

 

cheers

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How bout the scaling is 2 lvls per minute and you drop invincibility bots... Cuz they aren't hard as is, just really annoying.

Otherwise, cool.

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Who wants more useless rivens, put an umbral forma in the shop instead.

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This changes are asinine. You would have looked smarter not trying in the first place, DE.

This game mode is designed to test your awareness of the penalties involved in attempting said challenges in the first place. One life only gives a very clear message to all those worthy enough to survive arbitations.

  • Bring good/decent gear
  • Don't be a liability; carry your weight
  • Don't overestimate your capabilies; know your limits
  • Prepare for failure, accept it when you make mistakes
  • Always have contingencies; undesirable situations are more common than you think

In the Pubs i have joined, I have seen countless times players who do not mod for survivability, follow meta builds when they are not suited for the task at hand and/or are just plain quitters when some insurmountable looking obstacle comes their way (i.e. interception pts are all contested with very little error to spare). That leaves the remaining players to salvage what remains provided they survive the dreaded host migration. This new revival system is not going to help as it penalizes the competent to carry the oddball(s). It only helps if every participant is equally skilled and the occasional mistakes are made (then again, most players of this caliber are strategic and organised so they probably have contingencies prepared for such occasions). I predict that public arbitations are going to become cesspools of toxicity because of this new mechanic. Why?

  • It gives the incompetent even more headroom for recklessness, unsportsmanship and plain egoism (my teammates will revive me!)
  • It penalizes the good players who need to put in even more effort just to continue the game and contemplate reviving dead player(s) at the same time
  • There is no indication that the revived player will not be afk at the time of revival. Or will even commit to play more cautiously from said time onward.

You are putting a lot of faith in the characters of all tenno, DE. I commend that. But it is also indicative that you do not play your game enough in a less controlled environment, i.e. public matches. These changes are superfluous because the mechanic is not the 'most polarizing' issue that plagues arbitrations currently.

What is? The questionable rotation, rewards and those arbitrations drones. So much of the feedback here from participants reflect this.

The rotations. It is a big questionable decision in the first place. Some players believe that the rewards are not proportionate to the rotation cycles. My gripe is the frequency of rewards. The longer periods of obligated defence/ survival carries more risk, be it dc-ing, lapse of concentration or real life emergencies. The default,  pathetic reward odds found commonly in standard gameplay does not help. Who wants a 2% (default) desirable drop chance in rotation C in a mode with double the rotation obligation? You will see why no one plays lengthy modes like defence and survival because of that.

The rewards. Why endo? Personally, I am drowning in endo from sorties, arena and ayatan conversions. I would prefer mods, kuva and the occasional cosmetic instead.

The drones. Talk about bad design. Small, nimble during the occasional dodge when you aim at them. I am fine with their appearance and movement. What is not ok is what they confer: complete invulerability to all dmg & status. Enemies that are protected by these menaces might as well be miniature wolves of saturn six; they cannot be interrupted no matter what you throw at them. It is very evident; kill one drone and it explodes, but surprise, another nearby drone is shielding the enemy horde so no reprieve is given whatsoever. These enemies don't get thrown, staggered, frozen or blinded. Do you see why cc frames are out of their element in arbitations? I can offer one compromise; keep the damage immunity, but return status affliction and cc to a degree with diminishing returns. Halve the effective duration if you have to, but do not neuter players' kit completely. This is why tanks are borderline necessary; only they can take hits while you focus on the drones.

I have offered my feedback of arbitrations. It needs work, granted. But where you propose to take it is simply in the wrong direction. The ball is now in your court, DE.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not going to say no to this, but it's unlikely to get me playing more Arbitrations. The real issue is they're a massive time sink. Just make the enemies scale twice as fast and bring rewards back down to standard rates. Having to go ~20 minutes for a C rotation in normal endless missions is bad enough, but 30 minutes for a single C rotation is just not worth the time, especially when it's not particularly fun.

Like ESO, if there weren't things I want that are exclusively available in Arbitrations, I would literally never do them because it's just boring and time-consuming, and usually give you nothing good as a reward anyways. 

Edited by SableSonata
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In my honest opinion, as someone who has only done this mode 3 times, for adaptation & copies...
 

"Perma-Death" feels like artificial difficulty. And I say artificial because this "element" of difficulty has yet to occur in my personal experience with this mode

I was hoping the removal of this... "modifier" would give us better & more fruitful aspects of difficulty like:

 - Normal enemy scaling

- Rathum & Index Enemies

- Amp'd Powered up versions of Eximus Mini Bosses that spawn at every 3 reward intervals (Juggernaught, G3, Zanakua, Stalker, Hynea Pack, Jackals, Bursa Death Squads etc)

- Changing Environmental hazards

- Bonus Objectives that give additional drops from the drop table. The main purpose being to split the team up or think of creative work arounds. Objectives like: Defend 2 Data Terminals on different ends of the map for 2 minutes, Rescue 2 captives while in a defense mission, Evacuate 3 squads of defectors while via in a survival or Excavation mission etc.

Just my opinion on this mode. I'm glad you guys are not satisfied with its current state and wish to improve it...

Only wish you had the same position on Sanctuary Onslaught...

 

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16 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

When these changes go live next week on PC (and consoles in the near future), the rules of Arbitration death will be a little different: players are still killed with no bleedout timer, but a revive tower will be placed at the player’s spot of death. If any squadmate is awaiting revive, the Arbitration drones will begin dropping unique pickups known as a “Resurgence Burden”. These pickups function similar to Index points (otherwise known as “Financial Stress”), debuffing the players who carry them. 

If these points are really similar to index points - nobody would want to carry them, when they are already in danger of permadeath.  Also - sometimes arbitration drones just doesn't spawn.

Reduced bleedout(maybe 10s?(UNAFFECTED BY BLEEDOUT MODS!!!)) timer would work better. Also, this may give players another reason to stick together. 

17 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Since this shifts the mission balance in favor of players, we plan to compensate by making enemies scale at the rate they do in other mission (instead of the reduced rate of scaling that Arbitrations have now).

How about making rewards rate the same as in regular missions? 10min/reward feels unrewarding, as many people already noticed.

17 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

We hope that this system bridges the gap between players who crave hardcore consequences, and those who were put off by the prospect of permadeath.

How about an option to start a mission at lvl100-200 enemies with some bonuses for fighting against highlevel stuff?

Also, the problem with highlevel things is that random stuff randomly instakills players. Like on the last infested excavation arbitration, at about 20 excavators one of squadmates suddenly died, semlar's deathlog said that he `took 1 damage at 175 health from toxic ancient`. And I saw many similar messages from other arbitrations that we did. Like `1 damage at 300 health from tar mutalist`...

The other thing about arbitrations. Corpus is the worst faction on arbitrations, because it already has nullifiers and combas, and arbitration drones just make this mix completely insane, especialy when survivability is purely based on warframes abilities. Combas do their large AOE nullification, arbitration drones make everything invulnerable, and nullifiers protect arbitration drones with their shields.

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il y a une heure, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu a dit :

And yet people like to recall the "glory days of Void Keys and endless missions".   

I don't think this community knows -what- they want >.>

"this community doesn't know what they want"... by the guy who quote a bunch of peoples who want the same thing. :clem:

And know that even I, sometime, do survival of 20 minutes, and sometimes even more... 😮 *shocked* Why ? Because when I do that, I CHOOSED to. With arbitrations, you MUST do more for LESS rewards... The problem is that simple.

Turn up the difficulty all you want, but turn down the duration.

 

 

...oh and, this topic has nothing to do with void keys, or any pseudo "glory day"...

Please don't make us said stuffs we've never said, thank you.

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12 minutes ago, ligonare said:

I have seen countless times players who do not mod for survivability

The only thing that can be modded for survivability I can think of is Inaros. And it doesn't have enough mod slots and points to be completely modded for survivability. :\

Maybe chroma with hp/armor/duration/str mods and +300% str from arbitration... ...until it meets a nullifier.

That's about it. Nothing else has any real survivability, only some band-aids for fighting low-level enemies. And some survivability can be achieved only by warframe powers, like gara's 2, oberon's 2+3 and such.

24 minutes ago, ligonare said:

You are putting a lot of faith in the characters of all tenno, DE. I commend that. But it is also indicative that you do not play your game enough in a less controlled environment, i.e. public matches.

And I totally agree with this. Though, I must say that DE already does more than most developers, but there are still many things to do. :)

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I'm ok about permadeath in Arbitration mode, what's not ok is the lack of bleedout counter and having access to operator mode.

Regarding the mode itself:

- rotations are too diluted with double the time commitment for the same number of (disappointing) prizes

- insufficent enemy scaling

- fragging arbitration drones and total invulnerability to everything we have - honestly frag this trend this is Warframe not "mother can i use my abilities please?"

- disappointing rewards

- only worthwhile revards are a pair of mods that are needed for "meta" builds (so more powercreep) and have a 1% or so perceived drop chance

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Posted (edited)

I'm shocked by the number of people complaining Arbitration are long and hard, like that isn't the point. The higher level content isn't for you if you find that boring, and the rest of us are tired of 30s missions.

Arbitrations are the only mode that drops good endo, which I need massive amounts of to max out my mods. Arbitrations are damn near the only game mode in which enemies don't dissolve into dust when I glance in their general direction, which allows me to actually make use of the careful set ups and elemental/power interactions that can make this game so great.

Arbitrations are the only mode that's still unambiguously fun for me. Don't water them down, please.

 

 These changes are great, but I worry about picking up the points when I don't want to, and would rather every change BUT that one.

Edited by (PS4)PunishedGoose109

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Still boring ...

It need :

- more ennemies

- More rewards (little intervals)

- Somthing other than this drones.

-No revive, Only bleedout stats

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There's already a long list of people saying this but I'll just reiterate: please do away with the 10 minute rotations. The increased challenge is appreciated but the long, dragged out nature of the mode is not. It's makes the grind unnecessarily tedious and frankly not worth the trouble even for  some minmax players. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)PunishedGoose109 said:

I'm shocked by the number of people complaining Arbitration are long and hard, like that isn't the point. The higher level content isn't for you if you find that boring, and the rest of us are tired of 30s missions.

Arbitrations aren't difficult. They're time-consuming, boring, and not rewarding enough. It's less difficult and more punishing. Which would be good if it weren't only punishing you for using something other than a few of the most broken warframes available.

 

The way Warframe is balanced, the only way to die is basically to lose all your shields and health in about 0.25 seconds, so either you're at significant risk of dying in an instant and losing your progress, or you're not, and nothing can threaten you as long as you don't fall asleep from boredom. Very few warframes are really viable without help from another player's abilities. A good Oberon or Nezha can keep a squishier frame in the game, but if you don't have one of them around, you're kinda stuck with one of a couple borderline-unkillable frames if you want to go for any significant amount of time.

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41 minutes ago, RadYogh said:

The only thing that can be modded for survivability I can think of is Inaros. And it doesn't have enough mod slots and points to be completely modded for survivability. :\

Maybe chroma with hp/armor/duration/str mods and +300% str from arbitration... ...until it meets a nullifier.

So, so, so very wrong, wrong, wrong.

Adaptation, Primed Flow, Quick Thinking and a Rage and/or Hunter Adrenaline.

Enjoy being damn near unkillable with any Warframe.

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Thanks, but I'll pass. My idea of "revamped Arbitrations" includes a better reward system. One that doesn't force you to spend hours stuck in a mission only to end up with a very disappointing reward in the end.

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It is sad that Devs completely miss the point what is wrong with this type of mission.

Most of things were already said in this thread (revive system that probably force you to pick up like in index therefore making it harder for you even if you can't revive\don't want to, rewards vs mission length, enemies scaling in solo arbitration, bonuses that are useless for some frames, arbitration drones)

I do agree with most of the things but I think that they can be resolved in different way:

-10 minutes rotation could be fine if reward would scale accordingly(better rewards on defenses, survival, more rewards per rotation)

-Drones were made to counter warframe abilities and that is fine, the problem is that they often are hard to track because of spam of other mobs. What would be a good solution is making them only counter warframe abilities while letting you normally kill enemies with weapons which would solve the problem with being overwhelmed with trash because drone is somewhere behind the corner 

-Revive should be opt in

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