Arbitrations Revisited

[Kontrollo]

I disagree with the OP.

I don't play them all that often, but that's not because I dislike them, more because there are other things that take priority, e.g. Fissures for the reactants right now.

 

The changes sound interesting, but I want to play it first before forming an opinion.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, Zilchy said:

I see no reason why arbitrations shouldn't be made much harder, just increase the rewards to offer incentive and by that I mean just bump up endo and kuva rewards, nothing else. These can't be done until you finish the solar system so why can't it be made into a tough challenge, lord knows we need something difficult in this game. Currently farming interception arbitration is easy as hell and you can stay in the mission as long as you want.

*shrug* My guess is that because it's barely played they are trying to get more people into it.
DE isn't trying to make it easier, they are trying to make it more accessible because it's pretty much not played at all.

I'm fine with it as it is. A mode made for the 1% (figure of speech) that only gets played by the 1% (figure of speech)...*shrug* what else did DE expect?
Player engagement was destined to be nigh non-existent. I can count on no hands how many times my friends ask or desire to play Arbitrations.

DE was fully aware when making it that only an extremely small minority of the community would be interested in it. Well, that's who plays it.
I play it from time to time but meh...I tend to like having "fun" in my games. Arbitrations are what I call: "Tedious for the sake of being tedious."
Like in JRPGs when boss fights require you to poison/zombie yourself & etc.

That said, I'm fine with them doe remaining hard, hell the suggestion I made would actually make it even harder tbh.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

*shrug* My guess is that because it's barely played they are trying to get more people into it.
DE isn't trying to make it easier, they are trying to make it more accessible because it's pretty much not played at all.

I'm fine with it as it is. A mode made for the 1% (figure of speech) that only gets played by the 1% (figure of speech)...*shrug* what else did DE expect?
Player engagement was destined to be nigh non-existent. I can count on no hands how many times my friends ask or desire to play Arbitrations.

DE was fully aware when making it that only an extremely small minority of the community would be interested in it. Well, that's who plays it.
I play it from time to time but meh...I tend to like having "fun" in my games. Arbitrations are what I call: "Tedious for the sake of being tedious."
Like in JRPGs when boss fights require you to poison/zombie yourself & etc.

That said, I'm fine with them doe remaining hard, hell the suggestion I made would actually make it even harder tbh.

I would also prefer it to be harder but I agree they don't get played much. I have no use for endo, pretty much the first day it came out I was running 3-4 hour missions for the mods and enough vitus essence and I haven't touched it since. I may need to do so to build all the ephemeras now but other than that there's no real reason for me to play it. There's no challenge in the missions and no incentive, I can actually spend less time in an endless fissure for far better gains and a higher difficulty curve, even though challenge in WF is pretty much non-existant.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

2 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

I would also prefer it to be harder but I agree they don't get played much. I have no use for endo, pretty much the first day it came out I was running 3-4 hour missions for the mods and enough vitus essence and I haven't touched it since. I may need to do so to build all the ephemeras now but other than that there's no real reason for me to play it. There's no challenge in the missions and no incentive, I can actually spend less time in an endless fissure for far better gains and a higher difficulty curve, even though challenge in WF is pretty much non-existant.

That endo remark is 1 thing that really grinds my gears with DE's reward table. That and Ayatan Treasures make me want to scream (in the bad way) when I play Arbitrations.
Why is Kuva not more prevalent as a reward for late game content? Siphons & Floods are poorly designed & it's why players really detest playing them.
I once in feedback posted a huge breakdown of a concept for Kuva Fortress to reworked.
Essentially it made it the top spot for Kuva; Kuva Defense, Kuva Interception, Kuva Excavation, Kuva Survival, etc.

Kuva, Legendary Cores are barely used. Hard/Intended to be Hard content like Arbitrations should reward these things more so than the same things everything else rewards.

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

 

Now, I fully agree that the reward intervals in Arbitrations are too far between and are in dire need of tweaking, but asking for straight buffs to reward tables from DE is never as easy as it seems. Us vets have seen this song and dance before, most notably when we could finally have more than just 1 reward from endless missions that weren't survival. When that change went live we rejoiced that we could keep our hard earned loot, but didn't notice at first that the reward rotation went from "ABC" to "AABC" and the drop rates for the good stuff had been somewhat lowered.

What I'm saying is DE never gives reward buffs without taking something else away. If we get better intervals prepare to see the table get crapified.

 

See the little problem is.

Theres' no rewards.

None.

This above what rewards look like. Trash endo you can easily get in 10 other mission types or sculptures without stars arent rewards. And neither are archgun rivens no one wants and that they keep nerfing every month.

Thats not rewards, Its a waste of breath and time.

[Ayarai]

Earned revives, archgun rivens, these neither fix what is wrong with arbitrations, nor make me want to play them as a game mode. In their current form arbitrations are long and boring missions that do not feel rewarding at all.

I'm sure all of this has been said a million times in this thread already but here are some things that would get me interested in arbitrations:

• Faster reward rotations and more risk: Rather than having to slog through bland gameplay in twice as long reward rotations, change the reward rotations to normal 5 min/5 wave/etc. and have some form of a reward multiplier attached to push people to go for longer runs.
• Introduce more enemy variety and rework drones: More enemy variety to make things interesting, special enemies, minibosses or bosses instead of things that make the gameplay less fun (invulnerability drones). Add more difficulty the longer the mission is going on, but compensate this with extra rewards -> more risk, more reward.
• Rather than simply giving +300% ability strength buff to a random warframe, why not add a few more different mutators that are aimed to increase warframe viability for frames that are currently deemed too risky/squishy to bring to arbitrations.

With some effort I think arbitrations could be a very fun endgame activity, but it's going require a lot more changes than simply adding in a revive system or riven rewards.

[Kontrollo]

btw:

Spoiler

 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

On 2019-04-18 at 7:04 PM, [DE]Connor said:

When these changes go live next week on PC (and consoles in the near future)

 

listen to the community on this one.

Spoiler

 

hold off on this one. take the advice.

[Iludra]

I'm not playing arbitrations very frequently because:

1. It's rare to find people who want to stay for more than 2 rounds (mind you, that's already 20-ish minute mark). Recruiting a group is too much of a commitment for this activity though. If you never get to rotation C, what's the point? Oh right, I could solo, but that isn't quite as fun. If the rotations were a little shorter, things may be a bit different.
2. It's not very encouraging to try out different frames, because when you make a mistake and die, you need to wait 1h before you can adjust your strategy and try again. I don't have the whole day to play Warframe. This means I always end up taking Broberon (bonus point - your teammates get more than 1 life), which gets old after a while.
3. With Chorewave currently in place, there's no time left for me to do all the interesting stuff I want to do. Arbies currently aren't at the top of my "interesting stuff" list.

I don't see how the changes would address any of these points. If anything, even fewer people will want to stay longer, because of increased enemy scaling. 

Side note: I'm happy with the current time:reward ratio, cause I play for fun.

[IronKing24]

id love arbis for perma death what i hate is 1-no shield gating for squishy frames 2-drawn out missions 3-tash level rewards 4-drons that give enemies invincibility and hide around the corner 5- enemies scaling is even slower than nightmare mode like why

[Frostyinferno]

On 2019-04-18 at 3:23 PM, KirukaChan said:

Near as I can tell, these changes will make Arbitrations easier for teams, and harder for solo players.

Yeah, no thanks.

This right here. All this change does for me is make arbitrations more tedious. Thanks for nothing, I guess.

Between this and the multiple Nightwave challenges for doing missions with a friend or clanmate, it feels a lot like almost-entirely solo players like myself are being ignored frequently. Hopefully I'm wrong, but that's what it feels like.

[b4timert]

I can already see this being a common occurrence.

p1)I died revive me

p1)Revive me

p1)Revive me

p1) some swear words

p2) you suck, your gear suck

p3) how about no, your a burden to the team stay dead

p1) Im the host ill leave

p2-4 blame p1 for dying while trying to revive him or just picking up the new orb/tags by accident resulting in death.

 

[(PSN)Limorkil]

Five minute rounds.     Enemies scale double normal.   Permadeath.   

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 2 heures, Kontrollo a dit :

btw:

  Révéler le contenu masqué

 

I just want to tackle this point a bit more because it warrants to be expanded. 

The most core problem with Warframe in general is that basically most of the time the development cooks up some neat ideas, threws them out, and uses rewards as bait. 

What i mean by that is there is no direction to create repeatedly enjoyable content that you can play regardless of drops. Its is a huge problem, and it's apparent in the player retention data. 

The focus is always to create the next shiny bait to give life to bith old and new stuff. It is a huge problem, because it seeped into the community mindset as well. 

The issue at hand could be a bit less of a problem if only DE were to create something akin to the kuva resource sink and focus on the gameplay loop. DE as a long term live service with a mountain worth of content has a very wide variety of player types. Currently the game is only geared towards a specific subset. 

And it tries way too hard on accessibility. I mean, arbitration was supposed to be an endgame mission. It isn't. Not by a long shot. 

Imo DE should really bunker down and decide what to do with the content they have. If something if for casual, or newer players, make it so. If something is for veterans, make it so. Don't be afraid to recognise progression. The rewards conundrum will solve itself if you create a fun and engaging gameplay loop. 

[Kaotyke]

You know, I keep hearing about challange being decreased in Arbitrations, but the line if the Workshop that really hooked me into those changes was this

Quote

Permadeath also caused issues with host migration, since a dead host may be inclined to leave early, potentially throwing squadmates into disarray.

If the host has a chance to be revived, he wont leave and cause the squad to be disbanded at wrost.

[lucimaster100]

And where's the part where you make it rewarding less boring?

[Sebith]

So... you guys just took survival station and put it in players death spot and use index charge mechanics to activate it. Come on... create something that make sense... like void portal instead of that station... don't just copy and paste other assets. Make it look like something unique... Right now it looks very fast-made (which probably is) But, whatever... It doesn't fix the problems. Time investment : rewards ratio, diluted drop tables... and everything else your beloved players wrote.

I love you guys. You are like a family to me and i support you, but i can't hold up any longer.

You are asking your loyal players to keep playing same missions over, and over, and over again for 5 years. Sorties, Arbitrations, Nightwave. All of this is basically asking them to play repeatedly same missions. People are soon bored so they want play them as fast as possible. Blame them? No. Instead giving something new, you keep forcing them to keep playing those same missions. For example, to make players keep playing it you add new fancy cosmetic on C rotation with 1% drop chance, or some weapon parts. This is brutal... It's like saying "Oh, i think you guys are done and bored with this mode. Here! New cosmetic on C rotation, have fun guys! We know most of you are obsessed with collecting everything. Keep going, keep going".

And about those changes. Like someone wrote before, it seems like you're afraid to draw the line separating casual players from veterans. Afraid to say "Dear player, you are not ready yet to play this mode". New players have tons of things to do. Not every new thing must be appealing to them.

You guys have all the feedback you want. So many pages. Let's see what you do with it.

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, Autongnosis said:

I just want to tackle this point a bit more because it warrants to be expanded. 

The most core problem with Warframe in general is that basically most of the time the development cooks up some neat ideas, threws them out, and uses rewards as bait. 

What i mean by that is there is no direction to create repeatedly enjoyable content that you can play regardless of drops. Its is a huge problem, and it's apparent in the player retention data. 

The focus is always to create the next shiny bait to give life to bith old and new stuff. It is a huge problem, because it seeped into the community mindset as well. 

The issue at hand could be a bit less of a problem if only DE were to create something akin to the kuva resource sink and focus on the gameplay loop. DE as a long term live service with a mountain worth of content has a very wide variety of player types. Currently the game is only geared towards a specific subset. 

And it tries way too hard on accessibility. I mean, arbitration was supposed to be an endgame mission. It isn't. Not by a long shot. 

Imo DE should really bunker down and decide what to do with the content they have. If something if for casual, or newer players, make it so. If something is for veterans, make it so. Don't be afraid to recognise progression. The rewards conundrum will solve itself if you create a fun and engaging gameplay loop. 

Just to be clear:

I think rewards are important. But they shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. The gameplay must be good in the first place, and then it needs some things that are at least a bit desirable, otherwise it wouldn't be able to compete for our time in this game. And that's simply not the impression I had from the OP.

[chinhnguyen]

there are too much leecher. i don't want play ..

[Autongnosis]

il y a 16 minutes, Kontrollo a dit :

Just to be clear:

I think rewards are important. But they shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. The gameplay must be good in the first place, and then it needs some things that are at least a bit desirable, otherwise it wouldn't be able to compete for our time in this game. And that's simply not the impression I had from the OP.

I perfectly agree with your point, that's why i quoted you 😄

[---.CCC.---TradeFrame]

Not going to be bothered with the riven cap + 10 min rotation rewards.

[Mos-Eisley]

I seriously hope that you will either be able to drop, or not auto pick up these resurgence burdens. As a friend who runs a LOT of arbitrations said "NO I am not reviving your Ember so you can die again"

[Oreades]

Can we maybe just not lock Archgun rivens behind Arbitrations? 

[SuperSmog]

The problem isn't the Insta death it is the host migration, fix host migration stuff you fidx the problem. By removing Insta death you removing difficulty which me and I'm sure alot more quote on quote endgame players thrive for. Please don't remove it, because the Insta death would make sure people don't afk and it was so tense it was fun. To conclude please don't remove it host migration is the problem not the difficulty.

[Oreades]

On the subject of the revive change, I'm kinda torn. 

On the one hand it seems needlessly convoluted and I can only imagine it will result in a non insubstationl ammount of "git guud" and teabagging of the fallen players corpse, unless of course they are the host and command the fear of god (read: host migration) in their squadmates. 

On the other hand assuming that these things have a semi decent innate vacuum range it means losing a squadmate actually ratchets up the challenge for those surviving members. Which is something that those kind of people typically say they want. As well as gingerly nudging them into acting like decent human beings and resing their fallen comrade under the penalty of challenge, unless of course challenge is actually what the challenge seekers desire. 

In which case they are free to leave them on the ground and accumulate burden tokens for challenge sake. 

 

Also it wasn't the proposed Permadeath that puts me off..... it's the fact that y'all doubled the time between rotations.