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il y a 16 minutes, Kontrollo a dit :

Just to be clear:

I think rewards are important. But they shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. The gameplay must be good in the first place, and then it needs some things that are at least a bit desirable, otherwise it wouldn't be able to compete for our time in this game. And that's simply not the impression I had from the OP.

I perfectly agree with your point, that's why i quoted you 😄

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The problem isn't the Insta death it is the host migration, fix host migration stuff you fidx the problem. By removing Insta death you removing difficulty which me and I'm sure alot more quote on quote endgame players thrive for. Please don't remove it, because the Insta death would make sure people don't afk and it was so tense it was fun. To conclude please don't remove it host migration is the problem not the difficulty.

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On the subject of the revive change, I'm kinda torn. 

On the one hand it seems needlessly convoluted and I can only imagine it will result in a non insubstationl ammount of "git guud" and teabagging of the fallen players corpse, unless of course they are the host and command the fear of god (read: host migration) in their squadmates. 

On the other hand assuming that these things have a semi decent innate vacuum range it means losing a squadmate actually ratchets up the challenge for those surviving members. Which is something that those kind of people typically say they want. As well as gingerly nudging them into acting like decent human beings and resing their fallen comrade under the penalty of challenge, unless of course challenge is actually what the challenge seekers desire. 

In which case they are free to leave them on the ground and accumulate burden tokens for challenge sake. 

 

Also it wasn't the proposed Permadeath that puts me off..... it's the fact that y'all doubled the time between rotations. 

 

Edited by Oreades
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6 months later, this is the result of our feedback?
These changes do not bring any solution to the problems that Arbitrations already have, but add even more.
With every change DE make to Warframe, I feel they are becoming more and more disconnected from any form of reality or rational thought.
Also Archgun RIvens... really? 
 

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The only reason permadeath in Arbitrations is an issue is because Warframe is riddled with bugs.  You can die from so many things you have basically no control over (host migrations being one of them).  The proposed solution (i.e. to force other players to revive teammates) seems terrible, especially in public games.  Of course, none of these changes address the fact that Arbitrations are a tedious and unrewarding slog, and the greatest challenge they pose (apart from nobody disconnecting) is in keeping awake long enough to get to the C rotation.

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Another vote against these changes. The single life has meaning; strip that and you strip the point of Arbitration. For those who fall, there's always next time.

Agree with:
-Arbitrations are unrewarding after an extent.
-I wouldn't want to rev. people; less because I don't care, more because it disrupts the flow of what is supposed to be a ast and hard game mode. And already too many WFs are at risk of their own deaths when their groove is disrupted.
-People are going to get *@##$y and entitled over revives, which would prompt me to not care.
-Infested and Grineer are the only factions worth doing. Corpus nullifier parties with their exaggerated aim assist will never be worth it.
-Arbitration Drones are an annoyance; not difficulty.
-Arbitration Rewards could take some of the hefty grind out of other areas of the game. A few hours of Arbitration v.s. literal days or weeks of bad RNG could be a nice way to incentivize play. It doesn't help the done-everything "veterans", but faction reputation tokens or the ability to buy high-commodity items might be an idea.

Indifferent about:
-Duration. It's never bothered me, but can understand why other people don't like it. Especially if they only have so long to play the game for the day. It's already somewhat a time sink just waiting or an Arbitration combo you'd like to play to come up.
-Archwing Rivens; don't care if they exist or not, but do feel like they shouldn't be locked behind Arbitrations. I feel like they should be added to Railjack or improved Archwing missions -- you know, where people would actually use Archguns outside of Profit-Taker. 

Disagree with:
-The Revive system as a whole. It is convoluted; probably more divisive than permadeath ever was; and, outside of doing Arby with friends, is probably going to drive team co-operation further apart than closer together.
-Normalized scaling. Outside of the few people who want to fight really high leveled things in a non-Endurance Survival environment; this is probably going to sow more discontentment among the people who still play Arbitration. In a way, it feels like a punishment to those who never asked for and never wanted the revival system. As so many other people have said, there is a multitudinous amount of ways to die in WF and a sizable percentage of them are outside of the player's realm of control. Higher scaling and the probability of accidentally auto-debuffing ourselves through these unwanted pick-ups? It feels like a move to drive the herd away, not bring it back.
 

 
 
 
 
3
On 2019-04-19 at 8:56 AM, thor_sten said:

What about making it some kind of endless chain of random missions, instead of just a "a little harder" endless Misson? You start as a spy mission, and thanks to the data you know: There's a cryo-captive you need to defrost/defend for X Minutes. Then while bringing the Capitve to the exit: Suddenly Infested Invasion, so bring the Captive to saftery and then better sabotage / blow up this ship. While the countdown lasts, head to the escape pod to board the infested Vessel that brought the invaders here...

 

God, this. Bring Arbitration back to the procedurally-generated "roguelite dungeon" idea they originally pitched for Dark Sectors. I was so excited about that concept.

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On 2019-04-19 at 2:04 AM, [DE]Connor said:

These pickups function similar to Index points (otherwise known as “Financial Stress”), debuffing the players who carry them. 

1. I use Khora & Venari (equipped with Fetch) on The Index so I have vacuum for the Index points. If these pesky "Resurgence Burdens" function similarly as Index points then Venari, MOAs, Kubrows, Kavats, & Sentinels will be able to vacuum those too. I dislike this idea. Accidentally vacuuming those things will lower my health/shield & rapidly drain my energy? How about no...

2. I don't mind the permadeath. If I die then it's my fault for being careless. This is the reason why teamwork is essential.

When a player apologizes for failing to defend an excavator, I just tell them: "your life > excavator". They can't defend an excavator if they're dead. Excavators are infinite anyway. Makes sense right?

3. Allow us to have PVE dedicated servers to avoid host migrations. PVP has dedicated servers & it barely have any players.

4. Most people only play Excavation & Interception Arbitrations mostly because those are the fastest. Everything else are just too long & boring.

5. I don't mind Archgun rivens. I don't have much to say about this.

6. Bleeding Body ephemera is ugly compared to other ephemeras.

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If you're going to be adding archgun rivens into the mix, would you consider at least raising the maximum riven mod slot cap as well (if not remove the cap entirely)? As much content as there is in the game at this point in time and with more of it on the way, having a max cap of 90 riven mod slots seems restrictive for anyone that actually doesn't go off on a selling spree with the rivens they acquire. I'd personally like to get my hands on some archgun rivens when they become available, but I already have 90 riven mod slots and sitting very close to the maximum limit for riven mods, and I really don't want to have to axe a few of my rivens that I currently have just to make sure I have enough space for the archgun rivens.

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After thinking about it a little more, I'm unsure why the pickup and cash-in idea is preferable to something like a DPS check. To elaborate on my previously stated dislike, I think the problem with the revive system is that the obligation to pick someone up is actively placed on the players. That is to say because it becomes a focus rather than playing your role and using your powers, it disrupts whatever your agenda is.

I'm not saying the act of picking someone up is inconvenient; only that the method of delivery is. I'm not one of those people who ignore downed players in an Onslaught just because it's the Focus round or what-have-you. If I haven't picked you up, it's probably because I didn't notice that you've fallen in the first place and there are going to be times of that. Those times in an Arbitration is going to lead to a lot of screaming over text, I feel. 

Whereas if the challenge was to, say, take out a periodically spawning miniboss relevant to the faction -- one that could AoE pulse heal and revive upon defeat; the act of revival is then a passive benefit to just focusing on the task at hand. If this one hypothetical mob also had a unique reward to incentivize his kill and the increased scaling over time to satisfy the challenge seekers, it'd probably receive much a similar reception to The Wolf when Saturn Six first started. Excitement and/or anticipation. Like all things, once the playerbase has their drops and have seen the thing for the 600th time, then yes, it also becomes a tiresome gimmick. That's why it needs to have a drop that'll largely always stay relevant/helpful. 

I'd suggest something like an Arbitration lens. Something that fits into the focus slot but offers a differing effect. I'd suggest something like a syndicate bomb. Even if this hypothetical Arbitration lens didn't have the AoE damaging/status inflicting proc to enemies; just being able to customize our favorite weaponry with periodic bursts of Energy, Health, Armor, Parkour speed, etc. would be fantastic. I've long wanted an energy restoring weapon that didn't chain me to my Sequence-bearing Supra. It'd also come a little way into divorcing people from relying so heavily on the Zenurik focus school.

Now, I didn't mention the shield bomb. This is because I want to suggest that if a shield bomb were to happen, it happen with a minor version of the Ancient Healer's "shield armor" effect. It doesn't have to be a terribly large percentage of increased durability to drastically up the survivability of high-shield bearing frames. But, alas, this is probably too idealistic a suggestion. Even if the Arbitration lenses couldn't be put on any weapon, I'd suggest they at least give a substantial pool to choose from. (Perhaps the weaponry from the faction research labs?) I think the game would have a decent bit more build diversity if we could diversify the syndicate bomb-like effects amongst our load outs, and I think Arbitration would be a great way of delivering that, as opposed to pure rep grind.

Edited by Wraithward
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My issue with arbitrations though is frame choice, and abilities not doing as much because of the drones.

Also, I'd rather not be debuffed by someone else dying, it will just make me want to not play on public.

On 2019-04-18 at 2:04 PM, [DE]Connor said:

..

 

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Who thought of this, wtf? When we ask for an arbitration rework, we expect you to make it challenging and ALSO rewarding. But instead of making it fun and harder, you make it so the only "endgame" mission is easier for newer players. Arbitration isnt for new players. This game mode is supposed to be for veterans and right now there is no reason to play it other than the stupid RNG reward that is ephemera. Whoever is working on these stuff, need to listen to the veterans for advice because you guys clearly don't understand how to rework arbitrations.

Archgun rivens? Meh.

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6 minutes ago, Neo_Ganryu said:

If you're going to be adding archgun rivens into the mix, would you consider at least raising the maximum riven mod slot cap as well (if not remove the cap entirely)? As much content as there is in the game at this point in time and with more of it on the way, having a max cap of 90 riven mod slots seems restrictive for anyone that actually doesn't go off on a selling spree with the rivens they acquire. I'd personally like to get my hands on some archgun rivens when they become available, but I already have 90 riven mod slots and sitting very close to the maximum limit for riven mods, and I really don't want to have to axe a few of my rivens that I currently have just to make sure I have enough space for the archgun rivens.

  

I think creating an infinite amount of riven slots could be bad, it would favor those with lots of plats or a decent amount in the way that they can buy however many rivs they want of one weapon (maybe potential primed weapons) and sell it for lots when the wep gets primed- they'll get all the supply and potential demand. This would overall make the game imbalanced as plat can be extremely easy to earn and exploit. Market will defiantly change in some way if capped is removed, and I think in a bad way for the game in general.

Maybe it would be better to create another tab exclusively for Archgun rivs given the difference is that you get regular rivs from Sortie and Archgun from Arbitration. 

But hey, I'll gladly take like hmm like 30 of your rivs for free 😎 That way they won't be axed 

 

 

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Also if you do stick with locking Archgun Rivens behind Arbitrations, 

They need to be Unveiled from the start, EG you choose what Arcgun you get the Riven for. That or they need to be dirt cheap, like no more than 10 Whatever Essence and even that would be pushing it for me and RNG. The stats can still be totally rando, that aspect is fine. 

Cause the notion of slogging through a ton of Arbitration for a single RNG shot in the dark at maybe possibly an Arcgun that Im actually interested in is still a huge turnoff. 

Edited by Oreades
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On 2019-04-19 at 8:56 AM, thor_sten said:

I think my biggest gripe with Arbritations was (and as it looks like will be) boredom. Always the same enemies for quite a long time, without many milestones in between and without interesting loot for the first 30 Minutes. I think I most often died because I just didn't pay attention to the game anymore, rather than the enemies being that overwhelming.  Perhaps the faster leveling enemies will change that a bit, but I kinda doubt it.

Elite Sanctuary Onslaught by camparison is way more fun, thanks to it's diverse enemies and shorter reward-cycle, but I guess coping things from it, will not make a unique thing out of Arbritations.

What about making it some kind of endless chain of random missions, instead of just a "a little harder" endless Misson? You start as a spy mission, and thanks to the data you know: There's a cryo-captive you need to defrost/defend for X Minutes. Then while bringing the Capitve to the exit: Suddenly Infested Invasion, so bring the Captive to saftery and then better sabotage / blow up this ship. While the countdown lasts, head to the escape pod to board the infested Vessel that brought the invaders here...

This needs more upvotes!!!

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While I am glad DE is thinking about adjusting arbitrations I am sad to see them going in the wrong direction in two ways. 

 

1. Increasing the difficulty ramp scale does not add challenge or excitement or fun. It just hastens the point when the mission ends. This end is numerically driven, player skill has no part in it. As difficulty scales the health and armor of the enemy increase linearly with lvl and multiply by each other. This leads to an exponential difficulty curve. Also the traditional level curve increased exponentially as well. Doubling in level every 10 minutes or so. Because both of these are exponential growth the players literally hit a wall of numbers. No skill or coordination can overcome this. Mobs simply won't die in a timely manner and will overtake the objective. CC skills can't help with this because of the arbiter drones. 

 

 

Instead DE should keep scaling just the way it is but reduce the time for each round by 25% and link enemy scaling to the number of rounds completed. This will make players feel more rewarded and more likely to play this game mode. If players want more difficulty they simply just stay for more rounds which will happen sooner making it more bearable.

 

 

2. Allowing player resurrection with some new penalty system on the living players does not sound like fun. Our team mates are supposed to be a boon and not a burden.  This will lead to cascade failures and conflict between players. Some begging to be rezed and others cursing after they die while trying to rez others. 

 

Instead DE should work with the existing mechanics to make it more dramatic for this play mode. Double the bleed out time but also double the time it takes to resurrect someone. This will increase team play and give time for multiple players to gather and attempt the rez. There is already a substantial risk involved because a player who has already died is very likely to die again. Changing the rez dynamic will not have an effect on the majority of players who have a numerically weaker warframe and will die rapidly if rezed. If they are the host the host the host migration issues will remain. They will just happen after 1 or 2 rez attempts. 

 

Finally if DE wants to solve the Host migration issue with this play mode they need to pause the game like when a relic is opened. Store the game state send it to the new host restore the game state then give us a countdown once all players are connected and ready. DE could also look at some type of way for an eliminated player to contribute by playing as a shield or health drone to aid the players. Or figure out some other way to smooth out the host migration issue which has hampered this game for 6 years. 

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I'm willing to give this a try.  It doesn't directly address my reasons for under playing arbitration, but I will not say no to adding depth in this game mode. 

Those reasons are:

Manually targeted exulted weapons do no damage to Drones.  This disables major parts of those frames in this mode.  Do I think peacemaker should kill drones? No! But why not Titania, Bale-fire, Ivara, or even Valkyr talons?  It contributes to a trend I have been worried about since Nullifiers were introduced: If an ability does not buff weapons or survivability directly, it may become irreverent.  If an ability relies on debuffing or acting on enemy mobs, it is unreliable at best and should be phased out of your arsenal.  I do not like this trend. 

Lack of bleed out mechanic nullifies several abilities and passives and discourages frame variety to an unhealthy level.  Inaros, Inaros, Inaros...

Reward structure leaves much to be desired.  I recognize this as intentional.  The point is to encourage players to try the game mode and reward players who do it frequently with something unique, not to supplant other farming loops.  There is a whole rest of the game out there and all the rewards other then Vitus farming are trifles and I only ever play Arb when the mission's time efficiency is in my favor.  #Accretion

 

Reaction to changes:

In the current version, anyone who does not take an unreasonably durable frame into arbitration is disadvantaging their teammates by being the weakest link.  This is usually done because something in the warframe's kit is valuable enough to risk that Warframe dying and ending the run early.  Adding the ability to undo these inevitable deaths would make bringing these support frames more viable.  However, returning the enemy scaling means that these deaths will occur more often and damage output required by the team will out-scale players faster so DE may have only made the game mode harder, if slightly more fun.  In regular gameplay, the support frames support with buffs or power and the tanky frames revive them to keep them functioning.  That is what will happen in this iteration of Arb and it will be fun at first. 

Adding Archgun Rivens seems like a slippery slope, however, if you are going to cycle dispositions every 6 months, maybe it won't wreak them.  The idea is an order of magnitude more powerful than current Arbitration rewards and crosses a dangerous line.  Arbitration usage statistics will skyrocket regardless of how unsuccessful these gameplay changes are.  I think DE is changing too much at once.

I'd also prefer it if one weapons system in this game stayed free of Samodius' tier list.  Or maybe this is just DE trying to tell us that Railjack content won't be exploitable with edge case dps?  Enabling them to be purchased is a commendable move because it means they will not suffer the same kind of scarcity that other rivens do. 

Finally, reward cadence:  Adding Archgun Rivens means that more people have a reason to farm Arb for the first rotation reward only.  While Arb doesn't directly suffer "leave on rotation" issues, this is going to cause a larger number of players to approach this game mode dismissively. 

I thought one of the charming things about Arb was that the relevant rewards (Vitus Essence, endo) were sparse but consistent and did not improve or cycle-out on rotation and the unique rewards (cosmetics, particulars) only improved on rotation.  On the one hand this is fine; its just going to force people who want to go long to build squads manually.  On the other hand, I would really like a reason to look forward to long missions in this game mode.  Currently, I would rather play a funner load-out for less time.  If I'm forced to use a load-out that is capable of killing drones surrounded by extremely dangerous invincible enemies, I want it to be worth my while.  Unfortunately, I recognize that if relevant rewards scale with rotation, then the pressure to use cheese load-outs and strategies to make it to those higher rewarding rotations will be higher and many would do it despite it being less fun.  I don't know the answer.

Failing at 29 minutes means you wasted 9 minutes by not following "procedure."  This is a subset of "leave on rotation" and rewards should be more frequent.  The problem is only that 10 minutes is a long time and not that we need more value/time in what is suppose to be a niche mode.

Edited by Sahysa
Arbitration usage statistics will skyrocket regardless
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On 2019-04-18 at 8:04 PM, [DE]Connor said:

we plan to compensate by making enemies scale at the rate they do in other mission

So basically this means "Grineer are off limits" to me since I never run full squads with Corrosive Projections... Great...

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4 hours ago, (PS4)yandelyandel2000 said:

I think creating an infinite amount of riven slots could be bad, it would favor those with lots of plats or a decent amount in the way that they can buy however many rivs they want of one weapon (maybe potential primed weapons) and sell it for lots when the wep gets primed- they'll get all the supply and potential demand. This would overall make the game imbalanced as plat can be extremely easy to earn and exploit. Market will defiantly change in some way if capped is removed, and I think in a bad way for the game in general.

I don't think it would cause an imbalance. People would still have to buy the riven mod slots to have more space for them. Just as well, the whole "supply and demand" issue and people hoarding rivens just to sell them later like you mentioned is already a pre-existing factor, so that wouldn't really be any more of an issue if the cap were removed than it is now.

4 hours ago, (PS4)yandelyandel2000 said:

Maybe it would be better to create another tab exclusively for Archgun rivs given the difference is that you get regular rivs from Sortie and Archgun from Arbitration. 

I could see that working as an alternative approach, but at the same time, I highly doubt that DE would implement a new riven mod section specifically for archgun rivens when rivens as a whole is all lumped into one section; as it stands now, we currently have all primary, secondary, melee, and even sentinel weapon rivens all lumped under the riven mods category, so I don't think they'll be making a separate mod category for archgun rivens.

5 hours ago, (PS4)yandelyandel2000 said:

But hey, I'll gladly take like hmm like 30 of your rivs for free 😎 That way they won't be axed 

ZOex6LA.png

 

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5 minutes ago, Neo_Ganryu said:

I don't think it would cause an imbalance. People would still have to buy the riven mod slots to have more space for them. Just as well, the whole "supply and demand" issue and people hoarding rivens just to sell them later like you mentioned is already a pre-existing factor, so that wouldn't really be any more of an issue if the cap were removed than it is now.

I can agree with that! 

 

22 minutes ago, Neo_Ganryu said:

could see that working as an alternative approach, but at the same time, I highly doubt that DE would implement a new riven mod section specifically for archgun rivens when rivens as a whole is all lumped into one section; as it stands now, we currently have all primary, secondary, melee, and even sentinel weapon rivens all lumped under the riven mods category, so I don't think they'll be making a separate mod category for archgun rivens.

I doubt it too,  its just a suggestion. Oh me, I'll take that as a Yes. 

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On 2019-04-18 at 1:04 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Hail Tenno.

Your path has led here. Prove yourself.

Arbitrations have existed in Warframe for just over 6 months - these endgame mission variations put new twists on our tried-and-true mission formula, offering players a level of challenge they cannot find anywhere else in the game. Now that we have had time to observe how these missions fare in players’ hands, we have prepared some tweaks meant to address common complaints with the mode.

The most polarizing of these issues is Arbitrations’ lack of revives. Adding real consequences to death was somewhat of a new sensation in Warframe, and while we would like to retain some of that tension, the fact of the matter is that being dead is not fun. Permadeath also caused issues with host migration, since a dead host may be inclined to leave early, potentially throwing squadmates into disarray. Therefore, we will be implementing a new system where dead players can be revived - but your squadmates will have to earn it.

When these changes go live next week on PC (and consoles in the near future), the rules of Arbitration death will be a little different: players are still killed with no bleedout timer, but a revive tower will be placed at the player’s spot of death. If any squadmate is awaiting revive, the Arbitration drones will begin dropping unique pickups known as a “Resurgence Burden”. These pickups function similar to Index points (otherwise known as “Financial Stress”), debuffing the players who carry them. 

Warframe0284edit.jpg

In order to revive a player, 5 of these Resurgence Burdens must be taken to their tower simultaneously. These 5 pickups can be delivered by one or multiple squadmates, but cannot be “dropped off” at the tower - it’s all or nothing!


  

We hope that this system bridges the gap between players who crave hardcore consequences, and those who were put off by the prospect of permadeath. Since this shifts the mission balance in favor of players, we plan to compensate by making enemies scale at the rate they do in other mission (instead of the reduced rate of scaling that Arbitrations have now).

Finally, we wanted to give players who have already mastered Arbitrations a reason to come back. Therefore, we will be adding a new reward mentioned long ago - Archgun Rivens will be available for purchase using Vitus Essence! Expect a few new cosmetic rewards as well.

Thanks everyone for reading - we hope you look forward to revamped Arbitrations. 

You are on the verge of a new truth. May this help your journey. 

:highfive:

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