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I've been sitting at 90/90 rivens for over a year, and I don't even have rivens for all the things I'd like them for.  What the heck am I going to do with archgun rivens?!

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2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

These pickups function similar to Index points (otherwise known as “Financial Stress”), debuffing the players who carry them. 

So you're saying that not only do I have to take care of the weak, untrained members of the random group (if we're talking about host migration), but I'm also getting a debuff for my efforts, not an award? Sounds legit.

I'm sure everything they're gonna do to help, risking their lives. It will be especially helpful to know that if I am the only one who is ready to help, I will have to carry all five sacrificial stones around my neck. Simultaneously.

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Since this shifts the mission balance in favor of players, we plan to compensate by making enemies scale at the rate they do in other mission (instead of the reduced rate of scaling that Arbitrations have now).

Oh, i have so many questions here!

1. Does anyone on your team know that your scalping system is broken a little less than completely? This is especially true for the armor. Don't get me wrong, personally I don't care at all. I can handle it.

Current Health = Base Health × ( 1 + ( Current Level − Base Level )2 × 0.015 ) This is your formula. What does it mean? Let's take Heavy Gunner as an example. Base LVL8, 300 HP

LVL8    —        300  HP

LVL60  —     12464 HP

LVL80  —     23628 HP

LVL100 —    38388 HP

LVL120 —    56748 HP

LVL140 —    78708 HP

LVL160 —  104268 HP

So, lvl60-80 mean dispersion in numbers is twice as high. But is looks like only quater, or only 20 levels.

And dont foget about armor! Check this out, wiki now have cute feature! EHP calculator at every page! So, from 140000 EHP at lvl60 we are going to 2000000 at lvl160. Wonderful, isn't it?

2. It seems to me that when someone made a decision to reduse level growing, he had that as a reason. Or me and my friends are the only ones who stop because this mode is surprisingly tedious and you have statistics about the long runs for a few hours? Are you sure you're up for it?

3. Is this mode really so rewarding that no alleviation is possible without drawbacks?

 

So, to summarize.

Those who have gone through this mode without problems get more troubles with outgoing and incoming damage without anything in return, except a difficult moral choice. Should I revive this poor Tenno, who died three minutes after starting this mission? Is it worth the time? And in the end, am I ready to die in the process?

At the same time, people for whom this mode presented some difficulties (as probably should be) get a unique opportunity to die once or twice by accident. In exchange for a significant worsening of conditions for them and as a result - the reduction of the award (long run -- more C rotation).

Honestly, i don't think permadeath is a problem in any way. It was fun, after all. Maybe I'll feel a little better knowing I might die. Or I'll lose the pleasure of knowing that I was working at the limit and won. And someone will lose the opportunity to think that their defeat is just an accident.

 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Strontium-Dog said:

...then you will need a "suicide" button because tanky frames are...well tanky...and being overcome may take a while.

That's fair. I tend to go on Saryn because she's who I'm most comfortable playing these days. Would not be opposed to a self-destruct button of some sort, especially if it ragdolled you to hell and back like when you wipe out on your K-drive, haha. My main point was that I think if we're going to have a mission type built around the death mechanic, then it shouldn't be treated as a fail when you do, eventually, die - however that death occurs.

Edited by (PS4)demishock

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Posted (edited)

My problem with Arbitrations isn't the permadeath, but the doubled rotation lengths (and sometimes other aspects that increase how long they take) that feel like a complete slog for rewards that have extremely low drop rates.  I don't have fun playing them because they get boring.  Now that enemies will scale faster, maybe decrease how long rotations take, or increase the drop rate of the rewards that people actually care about?

Also, this might solve the issue, but it might not.  If people can quickly revive allies using this new system, the debuff won't last long enough to have a significant effect on gameplay, and death is no longer a big deal in arbitrations (if anything, you can now do more revives in Arbitrations than in normal missions).  If it takes too long, people will still leave, and host migration shenanigans will still cause issues.

Finally...I liked that death was meaningful in Arbitrations.  And this doesn't make that better, it just undermines the appeal of what is, for me, an already unappealing game mode.

Edited by ShadowFel
additional thoughts
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Suggestion: rather than repurpose the index debt tokens to become revive orbs, have some meter tethered to killing the arbitration drone things, lets say 15-20 kills = 1 revive. Can only store 1 revive at a time with a minute cooldown between usage?

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4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

we plan to compensate by making enemies scale at the rate they do in other mission (instead of the reduced rate of scaling that Arbitrations have now).

You have me sold with that alone. Might actually pop into public for arbitrations now too, great change. Definitely looking forward to archgun rivens. Don't even have any criticism to add, this sounds awesome.

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I dont like the idea of the Drone drop being like index point therefore an insta-pick and in that case insta-debuff. It'll only kill the whole squad faster. so no TY.

The problem with arbitrations is the time that take to earn a reward, just put the damn thing in the level 100's + and let it be like any other mission. that's what we want from the biginning! higher levels without the Boring waiting time to get there. people had ben asking this for years now.

well no more random squads for me, back to solo or playing with people i know.... nice.
Just hopping that the cosmetics are any good, because i cant care less of rivens, been sitting on 90/90 for almos 2 years now....

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Waaaay to miss the point!!!

The problem with Arbitrations isn't the perma-death. It's the god awful arbitration drones making everything immune to Warframe abilities and even exalted weapons. Their movement is also unpredictable, their hitboxes are too small, they get stuck behind enemies, doors. They make missions into a super obnoxious and frustrating experience.

Everyone hates nullifiers.  We've given you literally YEARS worth of feedback on that. So what do you do? You change them a bit and add them to every Arbitration missions. 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 

Why aren't people using CC/squishy Warframes? Gee, maybe the fact that everything is f*cking immune to everything they have might have something to do with it.

I ain't touching Arbitrations until you remove arbitration drones.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

we will be adding a new reward

Any chance you're going to revisit one of the existing rewards?

Compared to how game-changing (in an awesome way) Adaptation and Rolling Guard are, Sharpshooter is so unbelievably "meh" that it's not even funny. More (much more!) energy? A stacking crit chance bonus? Damage reduction and/or knockback resistance while scoped? Anything to spice it up, because right now, it's as close to a 10-pip waste of Endo as it gets. 

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Posted (edited)

they look like index points. so, main issue, what if i dont want to pick them up and weaken myself substantially???

read it over again, this looks absolutely terrible, forcing a debuff on someone if they have vacuum and pick it up accidently :crylaugh:

Edited by Talinthis

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I like changes but I don't like these. speeding up the enemies scale rate and reviving a player will make this mission lose what make it special.

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5 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

we will be adding a new reward mentioned long ago - Archgun Rivens

NEED.

MORE.

RIVEN.

SLOTS.

Don't keep adding them if you aren't raising the riven slot cap....

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Posted (edited)
I'd like to see this revival system be opt-in for both the fallen player and the remaining squadmates.  The gameplay can get pretty frantic and it's already difficult enough having fewer teammates in play; I don't want the fallen player involuntarily jeopardizing the entire run with the debuffs.
 
Maybe you can give the fallen player the option to deploy the revival tower from the spectating screen, and then the squadmates that want to help have to first go to the tower and interact with it to enable them to pick up Resurgence Burdens.  To help coordinate among squadmates without requiring chat, I'd like to see how many Resurgence Burdens each person has (or 0 if they've at least opted in to help), just like how we can see how much Reactant each person has in Void Fissure missions.  To prevent the Resurgence Burden debuffs from dragging out indefinitely and to give everyone a passive way to opt-out again, maybe the revival tower can expire after a period of time.
 
Finally, I want the fallen player to have the final say in when they return to gameplay so that they're mentally and physically ready (and haven't decided to wander off and do something else while waiting), so after dropping off the Resurgence Burdens simultaneously so the revive tower is fully charged, let the fallen player press the Revive button (like in normal missions) to respawn.
Edited by (XB1)cubeof11
Added a request for the fallen player to decide when they respawn.
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invincibility drones are barely real challenge, more of an inconvenience. why not spend more time and design unique support enemies that don't make everything invincible?
also, 10 waves/10 minutes/2 rounds for 1 reward takes way too long. the reason i do void fissure missions and barely even touch arbitrations is that i get rewarded every 5 waves/5 minutes/round in regular missions.

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Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. No idea what I think until I try it. I just think you guys should have done something involving arcanes. Maxxed out arcanes give you 1 additional revive, what better way than to grant that to those with maxxed arcanes in an end game mode? I don't really need it BUT, it just seems silly arcanes grand + 1 revive and it counts for nothing in your end game content is all. 

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And who is this supposed to be targeting?

The newcomers? They aren't even capable of setting foot in Arbitrations.

The casuals? They just leave after the first rotation, or don't even go in at all.

The veterans? We know this game. We know how to most efficiently beat it. We. Don't. Die.

You're essentially adding the worst part of Index to the absolute most tedious and infuriating game mode in this game. And you expect that to get more people playing? To the point where you even add Archgun Rivens: an unlikable RNG for a type of weapon that's seldom, if ever used. It's not just "hard to get", it's "hard to want".

Do you people even play this game? I'm guessing you either don't or if you do, it's just for 15 minutes a week. Because I'm pretty damn sure you'd know exactly what's wrong with this game mode and what needs fixing if you sat down and tried to farm for a single, functional Rare mod in Arbitrations. I'll give ya a spoiler warning: it ain't fun. At. All.

These little "changes" you're planning will be just about as useful as Frost's passive ability. And will impact the game just as much.

(PS.: Just in case you have no idea what I'm talking about, Frost essentially has no passive ability. It's never a factor in any type of gameplay and in the unique situations where it is, it almost never actually occurs due to abysmal chances of triggering. That is to say, it's a "does nothing" passive and that's exactly what I'm comparing these changes to.)

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Yet another BABY PROOFING mechanic. My only question is WHY? At least me I know I don't ask for revive on Arbi, that's the effin challenge for me especially when reaching high lvl. DYING is FINE!! My only gripe in Arbi are the arbitration drones. I think they're unnecessary. DE, BABY PROOFING THE GAME=DISRESPECT TO VETS. You're driving vets away by making the game EASIER.

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This mode has way too many problems still

Arbitration Drones - Ugh. This is the reason I don't run Arbitrations anymore. As a Titania, I have to hop out of Razorwing to destroy these and it burns my bacon. If the drones were a bit bigger and exalted weapons worked against drones, I wouldn't mind so much. 

SLOW - The rewards for Arbitration do not match the time investment. If the Arb mission type is defense or survival, I skip it. Even with a 300% strength bonus to Titania. 

All Tanks - Arbitration drones and permadeath force people to bring tank-like frames. In essence, there are frames I would only bring to an Arb if I was running with close friends, one of whom promised to bring a Nezha with Safe Guard. I hated bringing Titania until the change to Aviator occurred. I still hate bringing her because of Drones. 

 

Currently, if I die, only I suffer. With this change, if I bring a cardboard frame, my squad mates suffer. How is this better?

 

In terms of the changes... more Riven mods? Oh gods, why? I'm not even capped on Rivens and I super don't want any more. 

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Posted (edited)

To me, it seems DE's real goal is more focused on encouraging players to play in a squad. This change doesn't seem to address the core issues at hand.

Please take us seriously.

Edited by Verytis
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Posted (edited)

I think the increased difficulty rate was a good idea. But that's also the only thing I liked from your post. Arbitration has its problems (host migration, drone visibility, rewards/time invested/mission type) but this new implementation does NOT address them and you're introducing a very undesirable toxic/griefing mechanic with Resurgance. 

Permadeath was great. The fact that you're removing it is disappointing. What you are replacing it with is terrible though. I do not need begging for revives. I do not need griefing to make mobs drop Resurgance tokens that are going to be impossible to avoid. Even just a bad player now holds the rest hostage with dirtnaps and you can't do anything about it. Make the tokens avoidable at the VERY least (press X?) so I can chose not to pickup any. Ever. 

Sitting on 90/90 rivens since forever. I don't care for Archgun Rivens at all, especially if you make them readily available and therefore mandatory, but if you raise the cap like you did with the introduction of melee rivens then I will at least have something to smile about.

I love that you try to adjust and revisit existing gamemodes. Your trackrecord makes me hope you'll see from the overwhelming feedback that this idea is terribly flawed. I would advice floating ideas like this before investing a lot of resources into developing them. You're not under any obligation to do so, but telling us what 's up up front, may save you precious resources. You're not going to want to design your game by consensus, but if you're trying to adjust a problem perceived by the community, do yourself a favour and use them as a resource. There 's quite a few people with gamedesign backgrounds that will offer advice for free. All you're left to do is weigh and sift feedback.

Purely objective: notice the amount of posts that go YAY vs the amount that go REALLY? 

Edited by Koalachan
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I do love these new changes, but personally i think the time needed for each rotation needs a change. For example the time you need for 10 waves of defense might be different from 10 min of survival, etc... and it feels very burnt-out. So i would suggest giving /moving some reward from the 10 mark to the 5 mark (or 2 ecavators to 1) such as endo or ayatan treasures. Vitus Essence and mods (like adaptation) should be kept at the 10 mark. Thanks again for the changes

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Posted (edited)

Maybe an actual end game game-mode for end game players will help in the long run... modified game modes that are supposed to be "challenging" with 10 minute/wave intervals for something that can have a random chance of spawning in a low level tile for only about 2000-ish endo in the drop tables isn't much of a reward and pushes away people... granted it helps out players in need of endo which a large portion of them are new players trying to get things done fast and then going in blind then complaining after words that its too hard. 

this is supposed to be an end game game-mode that should have rewards that players should be farming that are worth it in the long run, Like yeah we can still get the "Golden Nitain" for what we need them for but afterwords, that's it, they just sit there, doing nothing.... gathering dust.... 

Arch gun Rivens seems like a good start but in all actuality what are we gonna use them for? Like yeah we can dish out more damage and collect them but after that what then? Then there's the "cosmetic" being mentioned. Is the cosmetic in question worth the grind? Cause if its akin to a noggle in anyway it's considered big no, no in my books, same if its a decorative dojo piece.

The point is it has to be worth it for the end game players to grind, as a new PC player now entering the end game section of warframe, I'd rather want to get something that's worth it and appealing (like mesa primes alt helmet *hint *hint) that's worth the grind and not something tedious to grind out.

Idk Thought i'd throw some idea's out there in the world. the revive thing also looks just bad to older players also.... just saying...

Edited by Kingdom_key599
Typo, forgot a word, even more typos... and a addition.

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These changes are nice but I would prefer if we needed only 5 waves to get a reward as well. But the revival shards need to be opt in instead of instant or you could end up debuffing yourself when you had no intention of reviving someone in the fist place. If you die in an arbitration that is on you and you need to work on your gameplay!

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