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Heidelgard

Melee 3.0: why was it already doomed and how to save it

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It's been quite some time since the release of the first phase of the melee rework, and by now players are split in two groups about it, the ones who love it and the ones who can't stand it.

That's probably because the developers took a brutal decision: removing the melee mechanics that were working fine for years and transform them into something different. I call it a brutal decision because as a player you don't have any choice, adapt to the change or abandon the fun. Some people can manage to adapt, and that is great, but ... what about the players that cannot do it?

I loved the melee fight in this game and I would like to continue enjoying it, but at the current state of the game I just ... can't, because I'm forced to play in a way that is not my combat style and I feel I have barely control on it. But I'm not going to talk about the many problems of this melee system that we can easily find in the Phase 1 Feedback Megathread. Instead I want to share an idea.

 

Now, before proceeding with my idea, I wanna quote the words of one of the developers:

"We cannot make innovative change when trying to preserve the status quo from 2014. What this means more broadly is that melee habits will change, not just keybindings. Keybindings are just a facet of the current combat systems - however, we are confident that the changes being made will increase the fluidity of melee combat, and that new smoother feeling will outweigh the old, clunker need for different keybindings. We cannot upgrade the melee system to 3.0 without refactoring what exists."

 

So, we can see that the root of the problem, is the short sighted vision of the developers, when they said we cannot upgrade something without refactoring what exists. There shouldn't be such a word as "we cannot", because you have the ability to shape your game in many ways, the possibilities are nearly endless. So I ask, is brutally changing something from A to B, the only option that we have?

... or is there another way?

Let's say what we have seen so far about the melee update, was just a beta testing, the developers were secretly collecting data and feedback. With the information they have collected, they notice that a large number of the players are unhappy about this forced change. So they use this to make something else, something ... more, in the next update.

Then the update arrives and oddly the melee system is reverted to the old one ... and you also receive an in-game notification about a new quest (if you are at a specific mastery rank or quest line, otherwise you need to progress with the story first).

So of course, we go to the Codex and we start this new quest, and we receive an emergency communication from Maroo, she was inspecting a section of the Orokin derelict, it was supposed to be safe and easy, but something went wrong, she's in danger, something is there but the communication cuts off. So we go immediately to the quest location, a rescue mission with time limit, because she managed to lock herself inside a room, but some sentients are lurking around and they may kill her. We defeat them and rescue Maroo, and she reveals us the presence of 3 devices, that together they will show us a navigation point, that is leading to a mysterious treasure. So we play the 3 missions and collect this devices. Once gathered them all, we get the final quest. We go there, and in the end we find an undiscovered Orokin vault, guarded by a special Sentient fighter that we have never seen before. After defeating it, we can get our hands on a memory fragment, that our operator has to touch. This fragment contains the memories of a forgotten Tenno(?). In order to fully understand it, we need to go back to our ship, and there with the operator we need to enter the personal quarters and meditate. We can see a cut scene about this warframe fighting with a different combat style, quickly alternating guns and blades. After this, we unlock a new customization window, something like "Combat Style", and there we can see three option:

- Traditional, you can select this and keep playing with the old classic melee configuration

- New Generation, this one will let you play with the current melee 2.9 that we have at the moment

- Hybrid, this one will open a sub-menu, because it will let you mix the two fighting style to create your own.

 

Let's explain the Hybrid style a little better: here you have a customization panel, where you can choose in detail how you want to perform some combat actions, choosing if you want to apply a traditional or a new gen move. For example we can have some options like this:

Melee Block: auto / manual

Melee-Gun Weapon Switching: F button / Switch immediately on shoot-aim or melee attack

Ground Slam: Straight Downward / Directional

 

And maybe we can use this panel also to set how you want to perform melee finishers, since some players have troubles with them.

Execute automatically melee finishers on stunned targets:  ON / OFF

If not enable, a second option appears that says:

Melee finisher keybind:  -input the button you would like to use

 

As a side note, maybe in order to unlock the Hybrid style, first you have to use the new gen way and reach a set number of kills perhaps, like you need to master its combat moves first.

 

So, this kind of way to handle the melee update, will let you not only to choose how you prefer to play your game, but it also leaves the game open to even further melee additions, and the players will always be able to choose their own path!

All the ideas above are a way to try to open your minds, developers, because I don't believe that the only way to improve the melee system, is to sacrifice good game mechanics that were on the very foundation of this great game, and you know that you shouldn't build up something, without good foundation.

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idk, caus they already decided to delete things like combo meter (blood rush, naramon, combo mods, rolled rivens, etc) which is already killing melee for me, im guessing they will also kill things like Maiming strike, Condition overload, which for me means that melee is dead, cause those 3 things are main for melee builds. Also they nerfing existing long range mods. w/e. Im 100%sure this 3.0 will just kill melee (for me,ofcource), and cause i was melee player only - this will be a huge hit to my gameplay motivation -.- At least im hoping that Railjack is close enough to melee 3.0, so it can balance S#&$ty side of this melee rework. 

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Or how about my suggest i placed in feedback: a simple on/off switch for melee combos? They could do that easily just choose not to. They actually believe they will keep 50 million users with this forced setup that most hate & don't want. i've been buying Primed Access for years, as a paying customer, they choose to ignore me. Then they will piss & moan about losing so many players, they can add new things all they want, but they like to destroy our fun. Makes no sense at all.

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What you’re asking DE to do is maintain three different melee systems, with everything that entails. With every update they do, every new weapon, mod, or stance they release, they’ll have to make sure it somehow plays nice with every type of melee system. I don’t think you realize what a ridiculous undertaking that would be. Unless you’re strictly talking about keybinds and not aspects that are planning on being reworked like channeling or parrying - in which case I would ask for more clarity in the OP.

You say that the “possibilities” are endless, and I will agree as long as you are willing to ignore the time, effort, and money spent making the actual changes. Let’s give Warframe the visuals of The Witcher 3, the gameplay of Dark Souls, the story of The Last of Us, and the open universe of Star Citizen. After all why not, what’s stopping them?

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2 hours ago, OmegaZero said:

. After all why not, what’s stopping them?

Their unwillingness to care about their patrons and greed.

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14 hours ago, Heidelgard said:

- Traditional, you can select this and keep playing with the old classic melee configuration

- New Generation, this one will let you play with the current melee 2.9 that we have at the moment

- Hybrid, this one will open a sub-menu, because it will let you mix the two fighting style to create your own.

 

I fully endorse your idea, a lot of people have suggested it in different ways on the main feedback, however it is all for naught, only when the warframe ship starts to sink they will try to lift a finger to make corrections. As far as I see it, these changes were made not to make the game any better but more marketable to more than one platform. GG WP warframe is dead.

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8 hours ago, OmegaZero said:

What you’re asking DE to do is maintain three different melee systems, with everything that entails. With every update they do, every new weapon, mod, or stance they release, they’ll have to make sure it somehow plays nice with every type of melee system. I don’t think you realize what a ridiculous undertaking that would be. Unless you’re strictly talking about keybinds and not aspects that are planning on being reworked like channeling or parrying - in which case I would ask for more clarity in the OP.

Okay technically they are 2 different melee systems for now, the third one copies what already exists in the others. Also it's not strictly necessary that they release new feature or stances that are perfectly working with all melee systems. Think about what we have now, an update that broke many mechanics of the melee combat, and still they forced this update and we have to stick with it, not matter what. With the idea that I suggest, they can still kick in a melee update that can be malfunctioning with one melee system, then people can at least choose to change the aspect they don't like and rollback to another one, until it gets fixed, and then they may decide to change configuration again. Now for the sake of beta testing, I understand if they need to force us to use only a new melee configuration, but at least give us some answers, something ... anything!  Not this complete silence. 

Let's use an example: if my idea were existing atm, I could have said "I don't like the new weapon switching system and the auto block, I'm going to set them back to the traditional style, but I like the directional ground slam, I'm gonna keep this new gen feature, and this is my personal hybrid combat system"

Also yea my idea needs more time and effort, but since it's about something that is very important in the game and that almost every player constantly use, I think it's worth to invest in it!

And lastly, we already have 2 melee systems atm, we just need some switches and we could already give it a try, yea at first something may be buggy, but if they keep refining it, players will notice that they care for real and in the end the melee combat will shine like never before, because everyone will play as they wish!

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Yeh that's good, I totally agree on your 2 points of view :

- Melee option manually ( Since now Archwing melee can't even have energy channel and LOL ... )

- Melee finisher no doubt, just sometime it was anoying . And they didn't even bother to fix Kuva Siphon keep having melee finisher by Naramon's void dash.

It is good that Melee finisher protect you from all harm when you performing it but OH YES, you can't trigger melee channel while in action like Finisher, activating, capturing etc but yet if you already have melee channel on you can turn it off while doing other things.

So twist , it wasn't like this before... much.

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11 hours ago, Heidelgard said:

Also yea my idea needs more time and effort, but since it's about something that is very important in the game and that almost every player constantly use, I think it's worth to invest in it!

Melee is an important part of the game, I agree. And DE also agrees, which is why they are reworking it to begin with. Sure the previous system has aspects that players like but it had a lot of issues that DE is trying to address with Melee 3.0. They might have jumped the gun by releasing 2.9 before they had 3.0 mechanics at least nailed down but they are definitely taking feedback into account - it’s the whole point of releasing the rework in separate phases.

Do you like Warframe’s parkour system? Did you know that there was a time where it was completely different, with no aim glide or bullet jumps? The old system had plenty of unused features and outdated mechanics, but after the rework it is not uncommon to read players new to the game praising the parkour system as one of the best they have used in a shooter. DE “forced” players to adapt to the new system, but its obvious that Parkour 2.0 is certainly not “doomed” as your thread title suggests. More players are playing Warframe then ever before, even if some left after the parkour changes.

I believe the situation with our melee system has many parallels with the old parkour system and I’m confident this rework will have the same result as well. 

 

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3 minutes ago, OmegaZero said:

they are definitely taking feedback into account - it’s the whole point of releasing the rework in separate phases.

I reaaaaalllyyyyyy hope you are right and that I'm being too negative, I guess the next melee phase will tell us the truth.

 

5 minutes ago, OmegaZero said:

Do you like Warframe’s parkour system? Did you know that there was a time where it was completely different [...]

 

I don't know too much about the old parkour system, I'm not a very old player, but I know well the previous melee system, and this current phase of the melee rework feels like a big mistake. Also if I may say, the example that you make is a bit different from the melee rework. The Parkour update introduced new moves that the player can choose to use, like the aim glide and bullet jump, the fact that they add new moves doesn't ruin my game experience, on the contrary, it gives me more possibilities so it's a true upgrade. But, deforming the controls of the melee combat because the developers think that is gonna be better for you and everyone, cannot be an upgrade, because we're not all alike, everyone plays in a different way, so if you make something thinking this way, with a general flattening, it's only a downgrade.

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Personally, I have been enjoying 2.9 a whole lot more than 2.0. It might have something to do with the stances I was using a lot. It isn't a doomed transition or even negative, the majority of naysayers are complaining about the lack of quick attacks more than anything. This is understandable due to how powerful they were on certain weapon types like polearms, granting full power attacks at a high rate and with mobility. 

Tempo royale for heavy blades was my favorite due to the instant quick spin combo, with 2.9 it is unaffected and can go full combo and channel with the ability to return with a moments notice, granting greater functionality than old quick attacks. Gunblades with bullet dance stance now can do a quick shot followed by a charge shot within a half second then return to normal gunplay, allowing for out of range attacks for weapons like the amprex, or healing attacks with lifestrike. Claws even got a boost with vermillion storm coming out with it's mobility and high attack rates being able to be channeled instantly.

The dive attack as it is now is a pure positive, the old one to be as precise as the current one you still had to look straight down. The new one can get the same level of precision from a 45 degree off angle increasing engagement speed and more.

 

Stances have not been reweorked yet, nor has mods or channeling. This is only the switching mechanisms.

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DE shouldn't have called it melee 2.99XXXXX or something. They should of just called it weapon fluidity. Tagging it as a melee update without actually updating any part of melee is just wrong. Not to mention it adds up all the confusion.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

DE shouldn't have called it melee 2.99XXXXX or something. They should of just called it weapon fluidity. Tagging it as a melee update without actually updating any part of melee is just wrong. Not to mention it adds up all the confusion.

It did update melee a though, and if you read the update notes it is generally refered to as "MELEE REVISIT: PHASE 1" or changes phase 1. The 2.99 thing is mostly from the devstream prime time commentary.

Directional slam attacks, combo interrupts, exalted weapon swapping and normalization of slam attack radii.

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