So Karak Wraith is stupidly good and painfully underrated

[FlyingDice]

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

No it doesn't... The Multiplier is Irrelavant if the weapon just doesn't Crit often enough. 

They're wrong about a lot of things, but they're technically right there. See: Nukor meme builds. With Harrow and 2x Arcane Avenger you can make any weapon a crit weapon. It's just usually not worth it.

2 hours ago, angias said:

My build has actualy 11k less dps because i run for little higuer statut chance and accuracy.

This is still a low rank weapon and it is amazing i can use it effectively un sortie.

You can use basically anything in sortie because it's low-level content that rarely poses any real challenge to a weapon that's semi-competently modded.

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

I know 😞

But public games are not even close to end game either so against those level enemies, corrosive will be better up to about sortie 2. Then viral is better.

 Speaking of Sorties! There's also Enemy Augmented Armor where CP's effects are halved!

And speak for yourself about Sortie 3. My Strun Wraith would like a word with you! Let's see, even in Sortie 3 Enemy Augmented Armor where I somehow opt not for Slash/Toxin... And counting multishot... Hmm, right, I think I remember 2-3 Strun Wraith shots and all armor is stripped (HP bar turns red)? If every pellet proc'd corrosive, only 1 shot on average would probably do it (0.75^25 << 1 ... 10 pellets, 150% multishot, 100% status before multishot). Two shots for sure!  Yeah, I think at least Strun Wraith with Corrosive is far far more powerful than Viral against such hypothetical enemies!

[angias]

il y a 59 minutes, FlyingDice a dit :

 

You can use basically anything in sortie because it's low-level content that rarely poses any real challenge to a weapon that's semi-competently modded.

I am well aware of that, this was more intended to the average player.

 

Filthy elistist in casual therapy.

This is supposed to be a joke don't (try to) murder me plz.

[Lutesque]

46 minutes ago, nslay said:

Speaking of Sorties! There's also Enemy Augmented Armor where CP's effects are halved!

Really ?

I guess I wouldn't know because the chances of a squad running 4 Corrosive Projections is low as getting The Legendary Core from a Sortie... 

 

[angias]

il y a 4 minutes, Lutesque a dit :

 

I guess I wouldn't know because the chances of a squad running 4 Corrosive Projections is low as getting The Legendary Core from a Sortie... 

 

Both are excessively overated.

There are exception to that but outside it is.

 

My worst fear when using corrosive projection is getting a full squad using it. Better safe than sorry.

Edited April 25, 2019 by angias

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, angias said:

Both are excessively overated.

There are exception to that but outside it is.

Actually Corrosive Projection is whst ultimately carried us through The Kuva Survival Challenge. :)

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Really ?

I guess I wouldn't know because the chances of a squad running 4 Corrosive Projections is low as getting The Legendary Core from a Sortie... 

 

I don't even play them anymore even though I'm a new player. They're absolutely awful. I hope I don't reach the point where Rivens are basically all that is left to "do" for long long while! Rivens remind me of Diablo 3 loot v1.0... Absolutely atrocious! Kuva is easier to farm than 5 sets of distinct bounty mats and 50 forgotten souls though!

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

 Speaking of Sorties! There's also Enemy Augmented Armor where CP's effects are halved!

And speak for yourself about Sortie 3. My Strun Wraith would like a word with you! Let's see, even in Sortie 3 Enemy Augmented Armor where I somehow opt not for Slash/Toxin... And counting multishot... Hmm, right, I think I remember 2-3 Strun Wraith shots and all armor is stripped (HP bar turns red)? If every pellet proc'd corrosive, only 1 shot on average would probably do it (0.75^25 << 1 ... 10 pellets, 150% multishot, 100% status before multishot). Two shots for sure!  Yeah, I think at least Strun Wraith with Corrosive is far far more powerful than Viral against such hypothetical enemies!

My friend, you forgot the part where I mentioned that viral is better on low status weapons than corrosive, not ones that are high status. 

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Zilchy said:

My friend, you forgot the part where I mentioned that viral is better on low status weapons than corrosive, not ones that are high status. 

Karak Wraith is not an example of a weapon with low status.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, nslay said:

I don't even play them anymore even though I'm a new player. They're absolutely awful. I hope I don't reach the point where Rivens are basically all that is left to "do" for long long while! Rivens remind me of Diablo 3 loot v1.0... Absolutely atrocious! Kuva is easier to farm than 5 sets of distinct bounty mats and 50 forgotten souls though!

Don't worry, I don't focus on rivens either, they're power creep nothing more. They're not necessary. If I get one that's great but I'm not gonna go out of my way to get all the ones I can.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

Karak Wraith is not an example of a weapon with low status.

Good thing I wasn't talking about the karak wraith then. If you go back a page and check my comment you will see I specifically said "non status based weapons".

[angias]

il y a 1 minute, Lutesque a dit :

Actually Corrosive Projection is whst ultimately carried us through The Kuva Survival Challenge. 🙂

That was a fun challenge hope they bring it back.

Did it 3 time without corrosive projection but i am a saryn main so there is that.

[nslay]

1 hour ago, Zilchy said:

That is dependent on the health of the enemy, viral quickly surpasses corrosive on higher level opponents due to instantly halving their health if you proc once, not 3 times like corrosive. Yes the health will return after 6 seconds but provided you kill the target in that time which is very likely, you will have done more damage using viral.

You are correct that viral is better on slash based weapons however, the idea being that the viral halves their health and then the slash proc ignores the armour and finishes them off. On higher armour value enemies, the effectiveness of corrosive damage on a non-status weapon will become less and less. Corrosive is mainly useful on lower level enemies and in late game, everybody just uses 4x CP aura to remove armour entirely from the equation.

If you scroll back, I answered a general question about status effects where I remark that Corrosive is more potent on Grinner units with lots of armor owing to the effect being permanent whereas Viral's effect is temporary. 

This is how you answered. The first paragraph very generally states something about Viral and Corrosive that doesn't seem to be true in general (or most of the time since DE seems to like to troll us with relatively high status weapons with less crit). You do indeed say something about low status in your second paragraph!

Then you state that Corrosive is only useful in low level content where nobody really has to think about armor in the first place. Then you told me that it doesn't work well past Sortie 3. All of these claims seem dubious to me.

It is probably true that stripping armor with low status weapons is not as effective as viral. But a lot weapons like Karak Wraith have a respectable status and high fire rate to boot... And that's not counting mandatory multishot mods to apply even more status per shot!

At the end of the day, unless you plan to play with friends with predetermined builds and 4x CP (and Wolf of Saturn Six stops spawning), I think you're generally safest with a Corrosive weapon build because you won't generally get 4x CP in a public game.

[Sloan441]

38 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Actually Corrosive Projection is whst ultimately carried us through The Kuva Survival Challenge. 🙂

CP is overrated...or maybe one should say it has a superstitious attraction to those who don't know how the game's damage mechanics work. I constantly see people with this in low level corpus or infested missions where you're facing little armor and/or enemies with low health. Some of this is just a disinclination to constantly swap auras (anything works at low level, after all), but I've seen enough evidence to support the theory that some think it's magic and The One True Choice. It is not. 

A Kuva Survival Challenge is one of the very few places you'll run into that it is an advantage to have and you know what you're getting into. However, in most other missions on the starchart you don't know what you'll potentially be getting into and it's overshadowed by other aura choices. You simply very rarely see PuGs push towards an hour in survival or something equivalent in other endless modes--places where CP will actually begin to be more effective than other options. 

If you have a premade and you know you're facing heavy armor, then it's your best choice and you'll make weapons choices dependent on that choice.

If you're in a PuG and you know you're facing heavy armor, then you make other choices since you can't count on your teammates bringing CP and your other equipment choices will reflect this--namely you'll be bringing other means of stripping armor and your choice of weapons will reflect that as well. 

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

CP is overrated...or maybe one should say it has a superstitious attraction to those who don't know how the game's damage mechanics work. I constantly see people with this in low level corpus or infested missions where you're facing little armor and/or enemies with low health. Some of this is just a disinclination to constantly swap auras (anything works at low level, after all), but I've seen enough evidence to support the theory that some think it's magic and The One True Choice. It is not. 

A Kuva Survival Challenge is one of the very few places you'll run into that it is an advantage to have and you know what you're getting into. However, in most other missions on the starchart you don't know what you'll potentially be getting into and it's overshadowed by other aura choices. You simply very rarely see PuGs push towards an hour in survival or something equivalent in other endless modes--places where CP will actually begin to be more effective than other options. 

If you have a premade and you know you're facing heavy armor, then it's your best choice and you'll make weapons choices dependent on that choice.

If you're in a PuG and you know you're facing heavy armor, then you make other choices since you can't count on your teammates bringing CP and your other equipment choices will reflect this--namely you'll be bringing other means of stripping armor and your choice of weapons will reflect that as well. 

 

It's only overrated in pub games. If you actually try and push further in missions it becomes extremely valuable. But yes in pug it's not as necessary cos they probably won't bring it.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Zilchy

[Sloan441]

Just now, Zilchy said:

It's only overrated in pub games. If you actually try and push further in missions it becomes extremely valuable.

More like it's unnecessary in PuGs and can't be counted on being there regardless of what actually happens. 

Premades with genuine agreed upon goals are a different matter--and I did address that. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

5 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

More like it's unnecessary in PuGs and can't be counted on being there regardless of what actually happens. 

Premades with genuine agreed upon goals are a different matter--and I did address that. 

Yeh fair.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

43 minutes ago, nslay said:

If you scroll back, I answered a general question about status effects where I remark that Corrosive is more potent on Grinner units with lots of armor owing to the effect being permanent whereas Viral's effect is temporary. 

This is how you answered. The first paragraph very generally states something about Viral and Corrosive that doesn't seem to be true in general (or most of the time since DE seems to like to troll us with relatively high status weapons with less crit). You do indeed say something about low status in your second paragraph!

Then you state that Corrosive is only useful in low level content where nobody really has to think about armor in the first place. Then you told me that it doesn't work well past Sortie 3. All of these claims seem dubious to me.

It is probably true that stripping armor with low status weapons is not as effective as viral. But a lot weapons like Karak Wraith have a respectable status and high fire rate to boot... And that's not counting mandatory multishot mods to apply even more status per shot!

At the end of the day, unless you plan to play with friends with predetermined builds and 4x CP (and Wolf of Saturn Six stops spawning), I think you're generally safest with a Corrosive weapon build because you won't generally get 4x CP in a public game.

Ok well I agree that it's better in low level content but I consider low level content to be Sorties. If however you ever decide to push for longer and come up against something like this little guy, you might suddenly think that CP is the greatest addition to the game. That guy's armour is probably in the tens or hundreds of millions and as you can see, currently his armour is ZERO without any armour stripping weapon used. I mean sure you can use an armour stripping gun if you want but at that point it takes far too long, guns are not used and out of all the damage types, viral will manage to be effective the longest before that too falls off and guns are relegated to a utility role. infact one of the best late game weapons is the Miter for getting rid of nullifiers. At that point, abilities take over when eventually guns can't damage them even without armour because their health is just ridiculous. You might think "well I'll never play that anyway" but hey you never know :) That's actually not even that far into the game and easily doable by many.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Zilchy

[nslay]

16 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Ok well I agree that it's better in low level content but I consider low level content to be Sorties. If however you ever decide to push for longer and come up against something like this little guy, you might suddenly think that CP is the greatest addition to the game. That guy's armour is probably in the tens or hundreds of millions and as you can see, currently his armour is ZERO without any armour stripping weapon used. I mean sure you can use an armour stripping gun if you want but at that point it takes far too long, guns are not used and out of all the damage types, viral will manage to be effective the longest before that too falls off and guns are relegated to a utility role. infact one of the best late game weapons is the Miter for getting rid of nullifiers. At that point, abilities take over when eventually guns can't damage them even without armour because their health is just ridiculous. You might think "well I'll never play that anyway" but hey you never know 🙂 That's actually not even that far into the game and easily doable by many.

Yeah, I will never see level 1701 Corrupted Heavy Gunners... But let's say I did want to strip its armor rather than rely on target % health abilities like Reave to kill it, and it so happened to have 100 million armor, it would only take 5-6  shots with Strun Wraith. Because hey! Corrosive is also exponential!

0.75^x = 1/100e6

x = -log(100e6)/log(0.75) ~ 64

With multishot (120%+ 60%=180%) ...  averages 28 pellets per shot so if every pellet procs corrosive, 2-3 shots. Add a few shots to account for mixed procs...

And a billion armor? Also 5-6 shots!

X armor?

-log(X)/log(0.75)/28 + 3

Very very slow growing function... Your large exponential armor numbers are not large when Corrosive is also exponential.

So if I didn't have 3 team mates also using CP, something like Strun Wraith with Corrosive would really save the day if we're still trying to damage enemies directly rather than using abilities like Reave to off them! Imagine doing effectively 2x damage on Viral affected enemies that still have a fraction of their 100 million armor (owing to not everyone having CP!). You'd be doing twice the << 1% damage to them... Wow!

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, nslay said:

Yeah, I will never see level 1701 Corrupted Heavy Gunners... But let's say I did want to strip its armor rather than rely on target % health abilities like Reave to kill it, and it so happened to have 100 million armor, it would only take 5-6  shots with Strun Wraith. Because hey! Corrosive is also exponential!

0.75^x = 1/100e6

x = -log(100e6)/log(0.75) ~ 64

With multishot (120%+ 60%=180%) ...  averages 28 pellets per shot so if every pellet procs corrosive, 2-3 shots. Add a few shots to account for mixed procs...

And a billion armor? Also 5-6 shots!

X armor?

-log(X)/log(0.75)/28 + 3

Very very slow growing function... Your large exponential armor numbers are not large when Corrosive is also exponential.

So if I didn't have 3 team mates also using CP, something like Strun Wraith with Corrosive would really save the day if we're still trying to damage enemies directly rather than using abilities like Reave to off them! Imagine doing effectively 2x damage on Viral affected enemies that still have a fraction of their 100 million armor (owing to not everyone having CP!). You'd be doing twice the << 1% damage to them... Wow!

You're right it would strip it. But by that time his mates will be on you and you'll be dead. It wouldn't save you unfortunately because you just won't be able to kill them fast enough. At that level your gun won't kill it, it has too much health even if you remove the armour. However if you use AoE frame attacks after stripping the armour, then you can kill it. And that means you have to strip it the instant it spawns or you're in real trouble. Consider as one factor, at that point every 4 seconds I am using a snow globe, I really don't have time to be firing my gun. I'm on nully lookout duty calling out their positions for a team mate. I haven't got the downtime to shoot as well. If I don't cast that globe every 4 seconds, the mission will instantly fail.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Zilchy

[nslay]

9 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

You're right it would strip it. But by that time his mates will be on you and you'll be dead. It wouldn't save you unfortunately because you just won't be able to kill them fast enough. At that level your gun won't kill it, it has too much health even if you remove the armour. However if you use AoE frame attacks after stripping the armour, then you can kill it. And that means you have to strip it the instant it spawns or you're in real trouble. Consider as one factor, at that point every 4 seconds I am using a snow globe, I really don't have time to be firing my gun. I'm on nully lookout duty calling out their positions for a team mate. I haven't got the downtime to shoot as well. If I don't cast that globe every 4 seconds, the mission will instantly fail.

You're absolutely right. I am oversimplifying this... And I doubt a random pub Survival game will ever see a level 1701 Corrupted Heavy Gunner. In a premade with this kind of enemy in mind, everyone would have CP for sure.

[(XBOX)KnightSlayer411]

23 hours ago, Diangelius said:

Looking at the Gorgon and its brothers, I'm expecting Prisma Karak.

I really like how its gun sound resembles an M4A1 Carbines though.

 would honestly hate that, better to buff the existing variant than releasing another variant.

[Lutesque]

5 hours ago, angias said:

That was a fun challenge hope they bring it back.

Why do you hate us ? 😞

More importantly if you thought it was fun then why do you need Nightwave to tell you to do it ? 

You can do 1 hour Runs of any kind whenever you like.

4 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

CP is overrated...or maybe one should say it has a superstitious attraction to those who don't know how the game's damage mechanics work. I constantly see people with this in low level corpus or infested missions where you're facing little armor and/or enemies with low health. Some of this is just a disinclination to constantly swap auras (anything works at low level, after all), but I've seen enough evidence to support the theory that some think it's magic and The One True Choice. It is not. 

But it is...

4 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

 

A Kuva Survival Challenge is one of the very few places you'll run into that it is an advantage to have and you know what you're getting into. However, in most other missions on the starchart you don't know what you'll potentially be getting into and it's overshadowed by other aura choices.

Not really...  in literally every other situation Aura's are more or less Irrelevant.... mostly because there are other mods that work even better for each individual Player's Build...

Also Armor Scaling is one of Warframe's biggest problems.... relative to the other aura's which just give you a marginal increase to Melee/sniper/pistol damage... allow you to see some stuff on the map, Tiny increase to Health or Health Regen....Corrosive Projection is just better....

5 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

If you're in a PuG and you know you're facing heavy armor, then you make other choices since you can't count on your teammates bringing CP and your other equipment choices will reflect this--namely you'll be bringing other means of stripping armor and your choice of weapons will reflect that as well. 

I always use CP for Sorties and everything above level 50.... even if my team mates don't Removing 30% of the Enemies Armor is still hands down far better than anything else I have

The only time I won't bring CP is if the mission doesn't require any killing in which case the Auras don't matter anyway.

[angias]

Il y a 2 heures, Lutesque a dit :

Why do you hate us ? 😞

More importantly if you thought it was fun then why do you need Nightwave to tell you to do it ? 

You can do 1 hour Runs of any kind whenever you like.

 

I do not hate casual player.

I need it to tell you to do it. why? Because most player are way WAY better than what they give themself credit for.

For me, Get Gud is not a term of despise but instead an encouragement to push themself further and become proud of what they did.

Srsly, why do you think i carried 3 different squad of player in order to achieve this chalenge. In the end they were quite happy and proud of themself, giving them a glimpse of their true potential.

The hardest part in front of a difficult task is the beginning, once you put your mind to it you can overcome pretty much anything (given the tools and mean to it). (Not that you'll succed every time but eventually and with time it will become easier)

 

I have a few hundreds hours of just helping new players getting their head around different game mechanic and helping them in whatever they want to do at the moment.

 

Funny enough, that kuva challenge was the first time i did an hour survival. Hu...wait i remember that april fool event...so maybe not.

 

 

The point is you need incentive to push yourself trully and that was one.

Edited April 25, 2019 by angias

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, angias said:

I need it to tell you to do it. why? Because most player are way WAY better than what they give themself credit for.

This is irrelevant since Success in Warfame is entirely dependent on gear....

1 hour ago, angias said:

For me, Get Gud is not a term of despise but instead an encouragement to push themself further and become proud of what they did.

Thats great but people are not going know that if you tell them to "Git Gud'"... saying this to anyone is guaranteed to make them write off as some sort of Elitist. Again in Warframe specifically this doesn't even apply because its all about what gear you use.

1 hour ago, angias said:

Srsly, why do you think i carried 3 different squad of player in order to achieve this chalenge. In the end they were quite happy and proud of themself, giving them a glimpse of their true potential.

I think they were just glad its over.

1 hour ago, angias said:

The hardest part in front of a difficult task is the beginning, once you put your mind to it you can overcome pretty much anything (given the tools and mean to it). (Not that you'll succed every time but eventually and with time it will become easier)

Sounds like a Platitude.

1 hour ago, angias said:

The point is you need incentive to push yourself trully and that was one.

It wasn't a good one.