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Plains of Eidolon Remaster: Hotfix 24.8.1

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Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

Yes, and we're wondering why you don't use it when you clearly don't need your teammates to do anything.

I go to Hydron to level up my weapons fast,I see a dps ,easy levelling as I have carried my levelling weapons/frames(this is the common go to plan for most players)
Y'all who want to grind for it should be the ones going to solo or join another squad since you want to engage yourselves..its not a bad thing...people just prefer efficiency in doing miniscule things like levelling up with the numerous amounts of weapons and frames in the game.

 

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8 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

As an addition to what I said, here's something to think about.

Once upon a time, people kept complaining about Ember's World On Fire nuking through missions and denying other players the opportunity to participate.  This went on for a long time, until eventually DE nerfed World On Fire.  Nowadays,how many Embers do you meet in public matchmaking?  Maybe 1 or 2 a week at best?  That's because nowadays, Ember is utterly useless, because her nerf dropped her below the bar that other frames have set.  You can't take Ember in to an Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, Arbitration or high level sortie mission because she'll offer practically nothing to the team's efficiency and she's so paper thin that she'll likely be dead before she's even managed to build her World On Fire to 100%.

Here's something radical to think about:

Why was Ember nerfed?

Because players complained that Embers spamming WoF ruined low-level missions by killing everything so fast that 3/4 players couldn't actually play.

So, if those Embers who didn't even need teammates in the first place played Solo or Private matches instead of hijacking public missions... who would complain and get Ember nerfed?

Uh...

The same S#&$ happened with Mirage and her Synoid Simulor. Obnoxious behavior from selfish players is what brings these things into the spotlight for nerfing.

8 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

The progressive power creep this game has had over recent years has left a lot of frames on the shelf, and what would be better than crying for nerfs to vastly used warframes now that basically set the bar for how powerful a warframe should be, you instead want them to be nerfed to bring them down to the levels of frames nobody uses nowadays.  If your frame is not performing to the level you see others doing, it isn't because that players frame is too powerful, it's because your frame needs to be buffed.  

It was mentioned in the last devstream that DE acknowledges that the power creep has caused some frames to be impractical or unusable in the current state of things.  Vaubhan is getting another rework because of this, Ember also needs (yet another) rework, and so do a few others.  Once these are done (if they're done), it'll resolve some of the problem, because older frames will be dragged up to modern standards and be able to participate in high level missions again without having to worry about Saryns or Equinoxes murdering everything in the blink of an eye, because you'll also be able to do it, and then we can all share in the glory.

This "only buff" mentality really needs to die. It's why we have <5% drop rates, an endless stream of grindy new filler resources, and 1-dimensional non-interactive boss fights like the Wolf. Saryn/Equinox killing things too efficiently does not mean my unkillable Nekros needs buffs.

6 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

I go to Hydron to level up my weapons fast,I see a dps ,easy levelling as I have carried my levelling weapons/frames(this is the common go to plan for most players)
Y'all who want to grind for it should be the ones going to solo or join another squad since you want to engage yourselves..its not a bad thing...people just prefer efficiency in doing miniscule things like levelling up with the numerous amounts of weapons and frames in the game.

So why is a nuker playing public to level their stuff more efficient than playing Solo/Private to level their stuff, considering they're killing everything anyway?

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1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Here's something radical to think about:

Why was Ember nerfed?

Because players complained that Embers spamming WoF ruined low-level missions by killing everything so fast that 3/4 players couldn't actually play.

So, if those Embers who didn't even need teammates in the first place played Solo or Private matches instead of hijacking public missions... who would complain and get Ember nerfed?

Uh...

The same S#&amp;&#036; happened with Mirage and her Synoid Simulor. Obnoxious behavior from selfish players is what brings these things into the spotlight for nerfing.

This "only buff" mentality really needs to die. It's why we have <5% drop rates, an endless stream of grindy new filler resources, and 1-dimensional non-interactive boss fights like the Wolf. Saryn/Equinox killing things too efficiently does not mean my unkillable Nekros needs buffs.

So why is a nuker playing public to level their stuff more efficient than playing Solo/Private to level their stuff, considering they're killing everything anyway?

Let me put it this way.  If you had previously been on the receiving end of one of the nerfs you're currently asking for, you would defenitely not be asking for any nerfs at all.

Using the Ember example I gave in my previous post, let me put it like this.  Do you think I enjoy having a 7+ forma Ember Prime in my inventory who currently is all but useless in any mission above level 30?  Do you think I enjoy having my most favourite frame sitting on the shelf gathering dust while I'm forced to use other frames because people cried that Ember players ruined everyone's fun?  

I can't use my Ember Prime, my very first frame that I ever earned in this game so many years ago, anymore, not even in solo play, because people complained that she did what Saryns and Equinoxes and other frames can now do.  she was nerfed for the same reasons you are giving for Saryns and Equinoxes, and she is now useless to everybody, whether they're playing co-operatively or in solo mode.

Consider the repurcussions of what you're asking.  you want Saryn and Equinox to be nerfed so that other players can have more participation in public matchmaking.  By extension, you are saying that all solo mode players must suffer because you're getting those particular people in multiplayer.

As for why nukers are playing in public matchmaking, who knows really?  Some people see it as a way of helping others.  If everything is instantly dieing, you're receiving affinity for it, you're gaining resources for it, and you don't have to lift a finger to gain that, you don't have to worry about being killed, you don't have to panic when you turn a corner and get splattered across the walls by a Bombard or a Napalm.  You're getting an easy victory, and you're complaining about that? 

If you don't want to have an easy time, use recruitment chat, find friends to do these missions with, ask around in your clan for people to run with, or switch on solo mode, but don't go ruining other people's fun or other people's attempted goodwill to strangers just because it doesn't fulfill your requirements for what is or isn't fun.

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1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Here's something radical to think about:

Why was Ember nerfed?

Because players complained that Embers spamming WoF ruined low-level missions by killing everything so fast that 3/4 players couldn't actually play.

So, if those Embers who didn't even need teammates in the first place played Solo or Private matches instead of hijacking public missions... who would complain and get Ember nerfed?

Uh...

The same S#&amp;&#036; happened with Mirage and her Synoid Simulor. Obnoxious behavior from selfish players is what brings these things into the spotlight for nerfing.

This "only buff" mentality really needs to die. It's why we have <5% drop rates, an endless stream of grindy new filler resources, and 1-dimensional non-interactive boss fights like the Wolf. Saryn/Equinox killing things too efficiently does not mean my unkillable Nekros needs buffs.

So why is a nuker playing public to level their stuff more efficient than playing Solo/Private to level their stuff, considering they're killing everything anyway?

YOu see because unlike you,they are not out to benefit themselves 
Many times I have encountered a player with clanmate or friend in Hydron nuking to help said friend in mission
We both know that affinity gained by warframe kills is only taken in by the warframe.It does not benefit said player unless they are levelling their own warframes as well
So  there are majorly three reasons why a Nuker would be in a low level mission
1.Relic opening to get to the high level where mobs are op
2.Helping out other players level up their items
3.Levelling up their own warframes as well

Now you people arguing that a warframe should be nerfed bacause it is commonly used in low level missions and brings "laziness" to the game honestly is not fair to those who want to play the game and are constrained by lack of time and amenities.We have jobs and places to be and in the little time we have we don't want to spend it all in one mission because someone wants DE to fix their problem when they can just join another squad without said nuke frames.

And also ,there is a reason they are called dps frames, every frame has a role ,Why would you want to remove said role from the frame .....what exactly did nerfing ember solve?There are other dps frames that will replace the frames you keep requesting to be nerfed and it is a cycle that will continue.The only reason a frame should be nerfed is shifting the meta because it will not solve the power creep issue.
 

 

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The few times I've helped players when they have asked in region chat with their missions I've tried not to nuke the map but offer support to help keep them alive and if it gets a bit hot kill a few here and there, I like my frames in solo if I want to go crazy I will or I'll find an interesting way of killing enemy's knowing if it even gets to hot in my game I have equipment to cope.

I have lots of weapons and I like to experiment with them, Warframes I do the same, at the moment my new favourite frame is Atlas, their is just something about smashing your way around the map.

Yes I was also sad to see Ember nerfed to the pooper, our group use to run through levels with Embers for fun to see who could get the most kills with Ember than the other player, with the nerf it just sits on the shelf as it's not even fun anymore, I just hope this gets sorted to the point it doesn't go the other way and drive other frames onto the shelves.

p.s I'd like to see an Altas Prime with Exalted fists called (Fists of Fury) 😛 

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2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Let me put it this way.  If you had previously been on the receiving end of one of the nerfs you're currently asking for, you would defenitely not be asking for any nerfs at all.

You think I don't have Ember or Mirage?

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Using the Ember example I gave in my previous post, let me put it like this.  Do you think I enjoy having a 7+ forma Ember Prime in my inventory who currently is all but useless in any mission above level 30?  Do you think I enjoy having my most favourite frame sitting on the shelf gathering dust while I'm forced to use other frames because people cried that Ember players ruined everyone's fun?

Why are you blaming the players who complained instead of the players who generated those complaints?

I agree that Ember needs buffs, and I will fully support effective buffs to her kit to make her viable for higher-level content. But that doesn't mean map-nuking is needed.

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

I can't use my Ember Prime, my very first frame that I ever earned in this game so many years ago, anymore, not even in solo play,

Yes, I agree that is a problem which needs to be fixed.

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

because people complained that she did what Saryns and Equinoxes and other frames can now do.  she was nerfed for the same reasons you are giving for Saryns and Equinoxes, and she is now useless to everybody, whether they're playing co-operatively or in solo mode.

Again, why are you blaming the complaints and not the behavior that led to those complaints.

Do you feel "I want to be allowed to play" is an unfair or unreasonable complaint?

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Consider the repurcussions of what you're asking.  you want Saryn and Equinox to be nerfed so that other players can have more participation in public matchmaking.  By extension, you are saying that all solo mode players must suffer because you're getting those particular people in multiplayer.

BullS#&amp;&#036;.

The Ember nerf was done horribly - it further weakened Ember without actually solving the problem related to the complaints; Ember can still nuke low level content. It was a bad nerf, which should have been handled differently.

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

As for why nukers are playing in public matchmaking, who knows really?

I know why: more teammates = more spawns to nuke.

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

  Some people see it as a way of helping others.  If everything is instantly dieing, you're receiving affinity for it, you're gaining resources for it, and you don't have to lift a finger to gain that, you don't have to worry about being killed, you don't have to panic when you turn a corner and get splattered across the walls by a Bombard or a Napalm.  You're getting an easy victory, and you're complaining about that? 

I play Warframe to play it, not to watch others play it for me. It's not like "easy victories" are in short supply or particularly valuable in this game.

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

If you don't want to have an easy time, use recruitment chat, find friends to do these missions with, ask around in your clan for people to run with, or switch on solo mode, but don't go ruining other people's fun or other people's attempted goodwill to strangers just because it doesn't fulfill your requirements for what is or isn't fun.

The irony of this complaint is really something else.

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

YOu see because unlike you,they are not out to benefit themselves 
Many times I have encountered a player with clanmate or friend in Hydron nuking to help said friend in mission

Lies. If a player is specifically helping a friend/clanmate that can easily be done in a private match where nobody will complain.

Nukers play public to get boosted spawns. That's all there is to it.

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

We both know that affinity gained by warframe kills is only taken in by the warframe.It does not benefit said player unless they are levelling their own warframes as well

3.Levelling up their own warframes as well

Bingo.

If nukers were merely doing a public service, they would gladly stop if asked to stop. They typically refuse to stop, though.

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

Now you people arguing that a warframe should be nerfed bacause it is commonly used in low level missions and brings "laziness" to the game honestly is not fair to those who want to play the game and are constrained by lack of time and amenities.

HAH. 

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

Wehave jobs

Neat, so do I.

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

and places to be

Neat, so do I.

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

and in the little time we have we don't want to spend it all in one mission because someone wants DE to fix their problem when they can just join another squad without said nuke frames.

Utter hyperbole.

4 players killing 100% of the enemies can be just as fast as 1 player killing 100% of the enemies.

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

And also ,there is a reason they are called dps frames, every frame has a role ,Why would you want to remove said role from the frame

Nerfing DPS a bit does not stop a frame from being DPS if it still deals more damage faster than non-DPS frames.

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

.....what exactly did nerfing ember solve?

Nothing, because as I openly acknowledge, it was a bad nerf that failed to actually address the problem. It should have been done differently.

7 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

There are other dps frames that will replace the frames you keep requesting to be nerfed and it is a cycle that will continue.The only reason a frame should be nerfed is shifting the meta because it will not solve the power creep issue.

Why do you assume those Warframes should be exempt? The problem is solo map-nuking.

No single Warframe should be able to nuke the map without active teammate support.

That doesn't mean DPS frames can't exist or be useful.

That doesn't mean missions need to take 10x as long to finish.

That doesn't mean DPS frames shouldn't be solo-viable.

It just means that 1 player should not be able to unilaterally hijack the entire mission when 3 other players also want to play.

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2 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You think I don't have Ember or Mirage?

Why are you blaming the players who complained instead of the players who generated those complaints?

I agree that Ember needs buffs, and I will fully support effective buffs to her kit to make her viable for higher-level content. But that doesn't mean map-nuking is needed.

Yes, I agree that is a problem which needs to be fixed.

Again, why are you blaming the complaints and not the behavior that led to those complaints.

Do you feel "I want to be allowed to play" is an unfair or unreasonable complaint?

BullS#&amp;&#036;.

The Ember nerf was done horribly - it further weakened Ember without actually solving the problem related to the complaints; Ember can still nuke low level content. It was a bad nerf, which should have been handled differently.

I know why: more teammates = more spawns to nuke.

I play Warframe to play it, not to watch others play it for me. It's not like "easy victories" are in short supply or particularly valuable in this game.

The irony of this complaint is really something else.

Lies. If a player is specifically helping a friend/clanmate that can easily be done in a private match where nobody will complain.

Nukers play public to get boosted spawns. That's all there is to it.

Bingo.

If nukers were merely doing a public service, they would gladly stop if asked to stop. They typically refuse to stop, though.

HAH. 

Neat, so do I.

Neat, so do I.

Utter hyperbole.

4 players killing 100% of the enemies can be just as fast as 1 player killing 100% of the enemies.

Nerfing DPS a bit does not stop a frame from being DPS if it still deals more damage faster than non-DPS frames.

Nothing, because as I openly acknowledge, it was a bad nerf that failed to actually address the problem. It should have been done differently.

Why do you assume those Warframes should be exempt? The problem is solo map-nuking.

No single Warframe should be able to nuke the map without active teammate support.

That doesn't mean DPS frames can't exist or be useful.

That doesn't mean missions need to take 10x as long to finish.

That doesn't mean DPS frames shouldn't be solo-viable.

It just means that 1 player should not be able to unilaterally hijack the entire mission when 3 other players also want to play.

To be honest ,I'm really glad you're not part of the DE dev team as your form of reasoning would've run the game to the ground
No single warframe should be able to nuke the map without active teammate support?Reallly? 
That explains why they input ESO, top tier levels and sorties also why they put in frames that can nuke entire maps..because everyone has their personal preferences on their playstyles which DE has done a great job of catering to.Point I'm trying to put across is there are missions that require the nuke frames and others that do not.Asking to punish a whole player base because frames are carried into missions is extremely unfair to a dedicated set of people who have poured alot of time and resources into these frames.
Also if you might not have noticed,low level missions are just that, LOW LEVEL,your notion of going in there to go and grind for hard earned kills is terribly placed as there'es that one or two players who carry a nuke frame and there's nothing you can do about it,people will find a way to nuke
 
I'm not entirely sure you did get the message when I was referring to the jobs.We do not share the same jobs nor same free time,many people enjoy playing warframe and this they do at the expense of their free time.You seem to have alot given your preferred playstyle which is is great on your side.However,most do not share the same privileges as you and punishing someone for dedicating their time to the game when he could be doing something else,all because someone was not willing to recruit a squad without a nuke is plain selfishness

There are different tile-sets and mission setups as well as the recruit chat that DE so graciously put there for people like you to get a squad that is suited to your needs.You find nuking boring while others find your play style boring.Its life, deal with it .Go to the recruit tab and get a squad or deal with it .You can't expect DE to spoon feed you every single damn thing because you don't want to go to the recruit tab.

 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

-snip-

One issue with your arguement can be made here.  you mentioned you were using an unkillable Nekros, and that there is part of your problem.  Nekros is not a nuke frame, he isn't even a DPS frame, he barely even constitutes as a CC frame.  Nekros's role exists purely as means to acquire additional loot and distract the enemy.  His only real attack ability is Soul Punch, which is underused due to it's weak effect and is usually useless when using a Shadows or a Desecrate build.  If you're going in to a nuke-friendly mission type with Nekros then the expectations from the randoms you'll get grouped with is that you're only there to get resources, mods etc.  Not to try and murder everything in sight.

Try to look at frames as part of the holy trinity in MMOs, or rather, a holy quadrilogy in this case.  You have tank frames like Inaros, Nidus etc. that are designed to eat bullets and spit out defiance.  You have DPS frames like Saryn, Equinox, Mirage etc. that are designed to sit behind the tank frames and line the walls with the enemies insides.  You have healing frames like Trinity and Night-form Equinox who hide in a corner and stop anyone from dieing.  And you have support frames like Vaubhan, Nyx, Nekros etc. that offer benefits to making surviving and killing easier for the rest of the team.

Obviously with the power creep we've had with mods, weapons and reworks, some frames have become a little redundant, like Trinity, who isn't really used or needed nowadays thanks to Vazarin providing energy regen and mods for weapons and companions making healing and surviving easy.  As a side effect of these things, DPS frames have become king of the hill, because they don't need healers, tanks or supports in order to fulfill their role anymore, they can easily DPS without dieing.  Nerfing these frames however does not rectify the problem.  The problem comes from mods like Adaptation, Healing Return, Medi-Ray, and abilities like Vazarin's energy regen.  Even if a DPS frame had it's power nerfed or had line of sight applied to their abilities, it would not stop them from doing what they can do unless their entire ability kit was reworked to remove those abilities altogether, and then that would cause total anarchy across the community.  At the same time however, DE can't really remove the mods and abilities that help DPS frames do their thing, because people have reworked builds, used up forma and endo, took ages farming focus to power up particular operator abilities, and spent a lot of time levelling their frames/.weapons/companions to fit those mods, and removing them because of a few upset Nekros players would cause an uproar the likes of which have never been seen in the Warframe community.

In short, there isn't really any way to apply the nerfs you're asking for, because no matter how it is done, it's going to make a lot of people a lot more angry than DPS frames make you.

Edited by Konachibi
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40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

To be honest ,I'm really glad you're not part of the DE dev team as your form of reasoning would've run the game to the ground
No single warframe should be able to nuke the map without active teammate support?Reallly? 

Yes, really. The game was fine before map-nuking was possible.

40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

That explains why they input ESO, top tier levels and sorties also why they put in frames that can nuke entire maps..because everyone has their personal preferences on their playstyles which DE has done a great job of catering to.Point I'm trying to put across is there are missions that require the nuke frames and others that do not.

So adjust the efficiency drain rate to compensate for the reduced DPS. This is not rocket science.

40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

Asking to punish a whole player base because frames are carried into missions is extremely unfair to a dedicated set of people who have poured alot of time and resources into these frames.

Nerfs are not punishments.

40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

Also if you might not have noticed,low level missions are just that, LOW LEVEL,your notion of going in there to go and grind for hard earned kills is terribly placed as there'es that one or two players who carry a nuke frame and there's nothing you can do about it,people will find a way to nuke

In a LOW LEVEL mission, nuking is utterly unnecessary. There's even less of an excuse for it than in Hydron. If you truly care that much about finishing the mission "efficiently," just solo it. You'll kill things just as easily and you won't have to wait for bunch of slowpokes to make it to extraction.

40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

I'm not entirely sure you did get the message when I was referring to the jobs.We do not share the same jobs nor same free time,

So what? What do schedule conflicts have to do with this?

40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

many people enjoy playing warframe and this they do at the expense of their free time.

If you consider Warframe "at the expense" of your free time rather than something you want free time to spend playing, I question why you're even playing.

40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

You seem to have alot given your preferred playstyle which is is great on your side.

Available playtime has nothing to do with preferred playstyle.

40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

However,most do not share the same privileges as you and punishing someone for dedicating their time to the game when he could be doing something else,all because someone was not willing to recruit a squad without a nuke is plain selfishness

Let me try again to spell it out for you, seeing as how you seem to be struggling with wrapping your head around the idea that no player is more important than any other player:

also have limited free time that I have invested in the game to get to where I am.

When some player in a public match insists on nuking the map so that me and 2 other teammates don't have anything to do but idle or quit and try re-matching, that wastes my limited time to play. How can you pretend that 1 player ruining the game for 3 others is less selfish than the players who just want to actually play the game?

40 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

There are different tile-sets and mission setups as well as the recruit chat that DE so graciously put there for people like you to get a squad that is suited to your needs.You find nuking boring while others find your play style boring.Its life, deal with it .Go to the recruit tab and get a squad or deal with it .You can't expect DE to spoon feed you every single damn thing because you don't want to go to the recruit tab.

What are you even going on about? Feedback exists for a reason, right?

Look, this isn't 

44 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

One issue with your arguement can be made here.  you mentioned you were using an unkillable Nekros, and that there is part of your problem.  Nekros is not a nuke frame, he isn't even a DPS frame, he barely even constitutes as a CC frame.  Nekros's role exists purely as means to acquire additional loot and distract the enemy.  His only real attack ability is Soul Punch, which is underused due to it's weak effect and is usually useless when using a Shadows or a Desecrate build.  If you're going in to a nuke-friendly mission type with Nekros then the expectations from the randoms you'll get grouped with is that you're only there to get resources, mods etc.  Not to try and murder everything in sight.

:facepalm:

Why are you trying to explain to me what my kit is designed to do? Do you think I don't know that? The point was that simply buffing other Warframes does not solve the issue of nuking, as you claimed it would. Nerfs are needed to address the problem.

Not repeats of Ember, mind you, but still nerfs.

44 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Try to look at frames as part of the holy trinity in MMOs, or rather, a holy quadrilogy in this case.  You have tank frames like Inaros, Nidus etc. that are designed to eat bullets and spit out defiance.  You have DPS frames like Saryn, Equinox, Mirage etc. that are designed to sit behind the tank frames and line the walls with the enemies insides.  You have healing frames like Trinity and Night-form Equinox who hide in a corner and stop anyone from dieing.  And you have support frames like Vaubhan, Nyx, Nekros etc. that offer benefits to making surviving and killing easier for the rest of the team.

Yes, and what I'm saying is that DPS frames should actually need support to achieve constant map nuking.

44 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Obviously with the power creep we've had with mods, weapons and reworks, some frames have become a little redundant, like Trinity, who isn't really used or needed nowadays thanks to Vazarin providing energy regen and mods for weapons and companions making healing and surviving easy.  As a side effect of these things, DPS frames have become king of the hill, because they don't need healers, tanks or supports in order to fulfill their role anymore, they can easily DPS without dieing.  Nerfing these frames however does not rectify the problem.  The problem comes from mods like Adaptation, Healing Return, Medi-Ray, and abilities like Vazarin's energy regen.  Even if a DPS frame had it's power nerfed or had line of sight applied to their abilities, it would not stop them from doing what they can do unless their entire ability kit was reworked to remove those abilities altogether, and then that would cause total anarchy across the community.  At the same time however, DE can't really remove the mods and abilities that help DPS frames do their thing, because people have reworked builds, used up forma and endo, took ages farming focus to power up particular operator abilities, and spent a lot of time levelling their frames/.weapons/companions to fit those mods, 

Do you know how you combat power creep? Nerfs.

44 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

and removing them because of a few upset Nekros players would cause an uproar the likes of which have never been seen in the Warframe community.

Hate to break it to you, but DE isn't going to actually move forward with nerfs unless a good deal more than "a few upset Nekros players" are complaining. A handful of complaining players isn't going to do anything. When the nerfs happen, it will be because enough players complained for DE to take notice and agree that there is a problem.

44 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

In short, there isn't really any way to apply the nerfs you're asking for, because no matter how it is done, it's going to make a lot of people a lot more angry than DPS frames make you.

First, the "numbers" argument is a really bad one for you because the vast majority of players don't even bother with the Forums and won't actually care enough to say anything about it.

Second, players throwing tantrums doesn't actually stop DE from making changes.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

-snip-

Well obviously you cannot see the error of your request, so let's try it another way.

How would you, personally, nerf frames like Saryn or Equinox so that they couldn't nuke entire rooms and you got to take part in the fight without ruining or completely altering their ability kit?  Bare in mind each frame has it's own design and altering that design stops them being who they are, so you need to come up with a way to make Spores or Maim less of a nuke factor without changing it's function.  If you truly think nerfs are the answer to your problem, then provide suggestions on how to solve that problem, instead of just shouting "NERF THIS" without contributing to your own arguement.

You mentioned irony in a previous post though, and how's this for irony... while I've been argueing towards not nerfing these frames, I actually very rarely ever play nuke frames, and when I do, I don't build them for nuking.  I've been powering up a Saryn this whole time for the purpose of fighting in melee combat using a combination of Toxic Lash, Molt and various self-heal mods while wielding a Mios (remember blade & whip weapons? :laugh:) so that she can be used as an effective melee frame that only resorts to using Spores in dire circumstances.  Equally my Equinox is built to act as a support frame, CC'ing enemies, buffing the ability strength of other players, generating huge overshields and healing when necessary.  My current Ember Prime build in fact is built around using Flash Accelerant to buff the power of a Braton Prime of all things!  Nuking is not my way of playing, it is not where I find my fun, but I won't tell anyone else they're playing it wrong or ruining the experience for me if I go in to a public matchmaking and have to try and compete against a nuke frame to gain kills.  I'm not so naive as to think that they should be nerfed just so I can get a few swings of my weapon at an enemy, because I know that if I wanted to, I could switch to one of those frames and do what they're doing, which I have done in the past, and occassionally still do when farming for relics with my clan, but not with Saryn or Equinox, oh no no no no, I use Mirage of all frames for my room nuking frame, and not with Hall Of Mirrors and an Amprex or an Ignis Wraith, but with a spammy Prism build (nobody uses Prism Mirages anymore :sad:).

My point being, even if you came up with a legitimate way to nerf Saryn and Equinox, people would turn to frames like Mirage and Mesa more often for room nuking.  If they got nerfed, it would be a Discharge Volt, if he got nerfed it'd be a Reckoning Oberon, if he got nerfed it'd be a Blade Storm Ash, or a Divine Spears Nezha, or a Mallet Octavia, or a Soundquake Banshee, or any other frame that has an ability that can damage enemies in a wide radius.  People only use frames like Saryn and Equinox for nuking because they're the easiest and most efficient ones that can do it, but a large majority of frames in the game have the same capability and people would use them if their original choice was put out of commission. 

Edited by Konachibi

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14 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

How would you, personally, nerf frames like Saryn or Equinox so that they couldn't nuke entire rooms and you got to take part in the fight without ruining or completely altering their ability kit?  Bare in mind each frame has it's own design and altering that design stops them being who they are, so you need to come up with a way to make Spores or Maim less of a nuke factor without changing it's function.  If you truly think nerfs are the answer to your problem, then provide suggestions on how to solve that problem, instead of just shouting "NERF THIS" without contributing to your own arguement.

Well, if actual discussion is on the table instead of the "no u r selfish" this debate started with, I am more than happy to oblige:

Nerf energy economy, and nerf Corrupted Mods.

The issue with DPS frames is not that they deal lots of damage or that they can wipe out entire rooms at once. The issue is that they can do it constantly and without any support from teammates.

By nerfing energy economy and Corrupted Mods, the +strength/range/duration builds that enable such extensive map-nuking should be unsustainable without teammate support.

To prevent this from affecting solo play disproportionately, drop rates for Health and Energy should be tweaked for solo matches.

Incidentally, these changes would also support an overall more balanced environment where support/CC powers are actually useful outside of insanely scaled scenarios. They would also remove the need for every boss to have major power immunity to avoid being directly trivialized by CC spam.

14 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

You mentioned irony in a previous post though, and how's this for irony... while I've been argueing towards not nerfing these frames, I actually very rarely ever play nuke frames, and when I do, I don't build them for nuking.  I've been powering up a Saryn this whole time for the purpose of fighting in melee combat using a combination of Toxic Lash, Molt and various self-heal mods while wielding a Mios (remember blade & whip weapons? :laugh:) so that she can be used as an effective melee frame that only resorts to using Spores in dire circumstances.  Equally my Equinox is built to act as a support frame, CC'ing enemies, buffing the ability strength of other players, generating huge overshields and healing when necessary.  My current Ember Prime build in fact is built around using Flash Accelerant to buff the power of a Braton Prime of all things!  Nuking is not my way of playing, it is not where I find my fun,

That's not ironic at all. I am not attacking you personally with my arguments.

14 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

but I won't tell anyone else they're playing it wrong or ruining the experience for me if I go in to a public matchmaking and have to try and compete against a nuke frame to gain kills. 

FFS and for the last time, this is not about kills. Get that through your thick skull, or we're done here.

I could not care less about whether someone in a lobby gets more or less kills than I do. I don't even bother looking at the stats on the post-mission screen.

I don't care how many kills someone else is getting, as long as I get to play instead of standing around twiddling my thumbs waiting for wave 5 to roll around while someone else does everything.

14 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

I'm not so naive as to think that they should be nerfed just so I can get a few swings of my weapon at an enemy, because I know that if I wanted to, I could switch to one of those frames and do what they're doing, which I have done in the past, and occassionally still do when farming for relics with my clan, but not with Saryn or Equinox, oh no no no no, I use Mirage of all frames for my room nuking frame, and not with Hall Of Mirrors and an Amprex or an Ignis Wraith, but with a spammy Prism build (nobody uses Prism Mirages anymore :sad:).

Yes, how silly of me to expect to play the game while attempting to play the game. What a radical idea it is that if a mission has 4 players, 4 players should be participating.

Clearly, I am selfish and insane for thinking players' ability to participate is more important than their ability to deal excessive amounts of area damage.

._.

14 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

My point being, even if you came up with a legitimate way to nerf Saryn and Equinox, people would turn to frames like Mirage and Mesa more often for room nuking.  If they got nerfed, it would be a Discharge Volt, if he got nerfed it'd be a Reckoning Oberon, if he got nerfed it'd be a Blade Storm Ash, or a Divine Spears Nezha, or a Mallet Octavia, or a Soundquake Banshee, or any other frame that has an ability that can damage enemies in a wide radius.  People only use frames like Saryn and Equinox for nuking because they're the easiest and most efficient ones that can do it, but a large majority of frames in the game have the same capability and people would use them if their original choice was put out of commission. 

My intended solution would address all of those frames and every new frame thereafter at once.

The goal is not to make DPS frames useless; only to tone them down so that team activities are actually TEAM activities, and not "effectively solo" to use DE's own words.

I wholeheartedly agree that DPS frames can be expected to kill lots of enemies very quickly, and that every Warframe should be a viable choice for balanced content. That does NOT mean that DPS frames need to nuke maps so quickly and efficiently that they are the only ones actually getting to play the friggin game.

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On 2019-04-26 at 1:38 PM, MirageKnight said:

- Nekros Shadows being affected by Renewal, thus posing a massive and unreasonable energy drain on Oberon players.

so I'm NOT the only one who finds this "feature" to be pointless and counterintuitive.

as an aside, there's been a few times where nekros' have apologized for using their shadows of the dead once they realized it was causing renewal to falter. Which, truly, shouldn't be happening because shadows is a perfectly viable survivability option, both with or without the augment mod. Any abilities that cause such an amount of negative synergy between warframes should at least be reexamined to determine if a fix can be found (which, in this case, is to stop renewal from affecting sotd, since, if I mathed it out correctly, renewal stops healing and just delays the inevitable somewhere around level 30 on a medium-strength build, and a high-strength build probably won't have the efficiency to reliably keep renewal active.

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 WarMarketMan                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

H4K2SMJRMTDY                                                                                                                                                                                                                          qwerttyuuiioooppppp

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Hey could you fix it so that channeling stays active after switching weapons? It gets annoying having to re-activate it all the time. Thanks!

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1 hour ago, crispu said:

We need raids DE !

Bring back raids !

*insert [primed soon} over here

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6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Even with that build, Saryn, Mesa, etc. can still outkill me by a long shot..simply because of how broken they are. Now that should tell you something.

Old Void vet here to throw in my half a sense.

Way back, when void defense and survival were the rage was when frame roles and meta were really getting determined and ironed out.

You had your kill frames (Saryn, Ash, Mesa, Equinox), your support frames (Trinity, Nekros, Loki), your CC frames (Mirage, Nova, Vauban, Nyx, also Loki), and your room holder, Frost. You generally had one kill, one or two supports, and one or two CCs, Frost if non-infested defense. Even though DE blew up the void, most team players from that era are still here, and still play the way they always have. They're not going to give up their prized ultra-murder farm builds for the sake of you getting 10-20 kills on a widely known and used EXP node. It was their job for so long, and they're into it for life.

Either that or they're stat crunchers. In which case, good luck convincing them of anything. lmao.

6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

I play Warframe because I want to kill stuff in different ways with other people - not to have someone else do it for me...

Te everyone that's pretty much said "leave my 'Frame alone"...bravo, you just revealed how selfish the motivations and intentions behind your counter arguments really are.

The issue with that right there is: your underlying argument is "I want kills toooooo! Save some for MEEEEE AAAAAAAAAAAH I'M GONNA BEG DE TO NERF YOUR FRAMES!"

Which is quite selfish. Let us play how we want to play. If you don't like it, don't play with us.

dab jury GIF

"EH but you play in PUBLIC GAMES, how can I AVOID you?" My guess is you only get a few of us once in a blue moon. Calm it down. Play with some friends. Everything's going to be ok.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

One time I had an Equinox accuse me of stealing their kills while playing as Oberon. And they still killed more than me and for far less effort.

Really? YOUR  kills?

Just to add though: yes, there are (curse word)s out there who act like this. Us meta-builders generally dislike them too.

Edited by Faceguy

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On 2019-04-26 at 8:38 PM, MirageKnight said:

Arch-guns being largely mediocre in comparison to regular ranged weapons.

Aren't they suppose to be a sidegride/ backup to your regular ranged weapons though? 

On 2019-04-26 at 8:38 PM, MirageKnight said:

200+ kills by Wave 5 on Hydron

Since when people go to Hydron to have fun? They usually want to level up stuff as quickly as possible and nuke frames do that - they make the mission go as fast as possible. 

Also you forgot about nuke Banshee. 

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1 hour ago, Faceguy said:

The issue with that right there is: your underlying argument is "I want kills toooooo! Save some for MEEEEE AAAAAAAAAAAH I'M GONNA BEG DE TO NERF YOUR FRAMES!"

Which is quite selfish. Let us play how we want to play. If you don't like it, don't play with us.

I can play the reductive ad hominem game too.

The issue with that right there is: your underlying argument is "But I LIKE my OP DPS and I WANT to just nuke the map because it's convenient and I don't really CARE if YOU'RE not having fun! You can go play somewhere ELSE. I EARNED this, but you somehow DIDN'T earn your right to play."

Which is quite selfish. Let your teammates actually play too. If you can't play nicely with others, play by yourself.

"Eh, but it's a PUBLIC match, can't I do whatever I want?" Well yeah, but then people will complain and eventually your frames will be nerfed. Relax. Play with friends who actually want to leech off of you. Everything's going to be okay.

Funny how that cuts both ways, huh?

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3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Well, if actual discussion is on the table instead of the "no u r selfish" this debate started with, I am more than happy to oblige:

Nerf energy economy, and nerf Corrupted Mods.

The issue with DPS frames is not that they deal lots of damage or that they can wipe out entire rooms at once. The issue is that they can do it constantly and without any support from teammates.

By nerfing energy economy and Corrupted Mods, the +strength/range/duration builds that enable such extensive map-nuking should be unsustainable without teammate support.

To prevent this from affecting solo play disproportionately, drop rates for Health and Energy should be tweaked for solo matches.

Incidentally, these changes would also support an overall more balanced environment where support/CC powers are actually useful outside of insanely scaled scenarios. They would also remove the need for every boss to have major power immunity to avoid being directly trivialized by CC spam.

Well I have a solution for you.  Your idea inspired it, but fundamentally your idea is bad, because it's stinks of grudges and favouritism.  If that were implimented, people would start asking why [x] ability was nerfed with increase energy usage but [y] ability wasn't etc.  It may solve your problem and the minority that want these nerfs introduced, but it would cause a bigger one, the ire and anger of the majority of the community.

How do we solve this problem then?  Easy.  We nerf universally by design, instead of specifically by force.

The primary reason for your problem is that these frames can spam these abilities as much as they want, and as I mentioned, if you nerf them, people will turn to other frames.  To prevent that from happening and affect all frames across the board, we nerf power efficiency.

At the moment, power efficiency mods work 1-1, so 1% power efficiency decreases the cost of an ability by 1 energy.  If we cut that in half, so it would require 2% efficiency to decrease an ability by 1 energy.  We also remove the power efficiency cap of 175% so that it can go up to 300% like all other power stats.  Now this would mean that Fleeting Expertise would only decrease the cost of abilities by 30 energy, Streamline would only decrease it by 15 energy, so combined they can drop their 4th ability cost to 65 energy.  Now this is still pretty low for casting an ability, but the difference is that that player is now having to use two mod slots to achieve it, instead of using just Fleeting Expertise to drop it to 40 energy cost.  Additionally if they really wanted to be able to spam as much as before, they'd likely need to use Flow or Primed Flow so their energy pool would make up the difference that was lost, and that would also need them to collect more energy orbs in order to fill their pool.

As a result, nuke frames will have to decide whether to sacrifice efficiency and not be able to spam-nuke everything, or lose range, strength or duration, reducing their nuke effectiveness.  Then, if they decide to lose efficiency, they'll need frames like Trinity in order to continue doing what they do right now.  Also in theory this wouldn't necessarily interfere with any frames build, as the only things that would go up is the energy cost of their abilities by whatever margin their efficiency is while still keeping the effectiveness of those abilities the same.

The negative of this obviously would be that channelling abilities would suffer through this change.  Razorwing, World On Fire, Maim & Mend, Desecrate etc. would all become somewhat more energy hungry, but I don't think it'd be enough to severely hurt those kinds of builds (unless of course the efficiency change didn't affect energy drain on channelling abilities, so 160% power efficiency still offered it's highest value), but everything else 'should' work pretty much as it was before, as none-dps heavy frames rarely spam their abilities and usually leave an excess of energy orbs in their wake with all the corpses.

So there you go, problem solved without pointing fingers at specific frames or waving blame around.  It also opens the opportunity for DE to create new efficiency mods which, again, would mean players would have to decide whether to ignore those mods or sacrifice duration, range or strength in order to make their abilities slightly more spammy.

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