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[DE]Megan

Plains of Eidolon Remaster: Hotfix 24.8.1

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1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I can play the reductive ad hominem game too.

The issue with that right there is: your underlying argument is "But I LIKE my OP DPS and I WANT to just nuke the map because it's convenient and I don't really CARE if YOU'RE not having fun! You can go play somewhere ELSE. I EARNED this, but you somehow DIDN'T earn your right to play."

Which is quite selfish. Let your teammates actually play too. If you can't play nicely with others, play by yourself.

"Eh, but it's a PUBLIC match, can't I do whatever I want?" Well yeah, but then people will complain and eventually your frames will be nerfed. Relax. Play with friends who actually want to leech off of you. Everything's going to be okay.

Funny how that cuts both ways, huh?

Oof, ya got me. I knew someone would come around and ignore the top half, for the bottom.

Earned is a strong word, tho. I'd never be so egotistical to imply that I earned the right to deny others kills or gameplay. I just played the game how it looked like it was generally meant to be played. I'm really not one of the jerk-offs that sits in pubs and nukes everyone's day away, because I started my campaign on this game playing with friends, and generally still do. Like I said in my above post: half a sense. My life on this game is with friends and clanmates, not in pubs.

In the end though, it always comes full circle. This community's always been divisive, and nothing much can be done about that.

 

My friends and I leech off each other all the time tho, ngl. The idea being, when one's behind, grind the other up. Friends are nice.

When we get bored, we race to see who can nuke the hardest.

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Here's something radical to think about:

Why was Ember nerfed?

Because players complained that Embers spamming WoF ruined low-level missions by killing everything so fast that 3/4 players couldn't actually play.

So, if those Embers who didn't even need teammates in the first place played Solo or Private matches instead of hijacking public missions... who would complain and get Ember nerfed?

Uh...

The same S#&$ happened with Mirage and her Synoid Simulor. Obnoxious behavior from selfish players is what brings these things into the spotlight for nerfing.

This "only buff" mentality really needs to die. It's why we have <5% drop rates, an endless stream of grindy new filler resources, and 1-dimensional non-interactive boss fights like the Wolf. Saryn/Equinox killing things too efficiently does not mean my unkillable Nekros needs buffs.

So why is a nuker playing public to level their stuff more efficient than playing Solo/Private to level their stuff, considering they're killing everything anyway?

Ok, First about Ember... No one really knows, because Equinox always had more range than ember and does the same effect in lower level missions... I'm thinking that they just looked at the plat prices that people were selling embers primes back then and got scared...

Nukers play public, because that's the way the game is meant to be played... And you should be happy a nuker enters your match, since it'll make it easier to level your gear, not to mention faster, in fact the person coming of the worse is the nuker, unless he's leveling the actual warframe.
 

Its funny, because this is the crucial example of the "can't please everyone" issue, since now and then you'll see people complaining about leechers, since they have a easier time leveling warframes, and then comes the other people that complain they want to spend longer leveling, and that other people (who can do maths in their head) shouldn't play the game, because they wants to play vauban in defense...

There's several of you in every god-damn MMORPG, people that want to be "special", can't read the writing on the wall, ignore the meta (read the most efficient and effective ways to play), and then complain in the forum that everyone else should play your way.

Edited by ReaverKane
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Konachibi said:

Well I have a solution for you.  Your idea inspired it, but fundamentally your idea is bad, because it's stinks of grudges and favouritism.  If that were implimented, people would start asking why [x] ability was nerfed with increase energy usage but [y] ability wasn't etc.  It may solve your problem and the minority that want these nerfs introduced, but it would cause a bigger one, the ire and anger of the majority of the community.

How do we solve this problem then?  Easy.  We nerf universally by design, instead of specifically by force.

The primary reason for your problem is that these frames can spam these abilities as much as they want, and as I mentioned, if you nerf them, people will turn to other frames.  To prevent that from happening and affect all frames across the board, we nerf power efficiency.

I think you misunderstood me, because that is actually exactly what I was suggesting. Not just nerfs to specific Frames/abilities, but across the board for the entire game.

Quote

At the moment, power efficiency mods work 1-1, so 1% power efficiency decreases the cost of an ability by 1 energy.  If we cut that in half, so it would require 2% efficiency to decrease an ability by 1 energy.  We also remove the power efficiency cap of 175% so that it can go up to 300% like all other power stats.  Now this would mean that Fleeting Expertise would only decrease the cost of abilities by 30 energy, Streamline would only decrease it by 15 energy, so combined they can drop their 4th ability cost to 65 energy.  Now this is still pretty low for casting an ability, but the difference is that that player is now having to use two mod slots to achieve it, instead of using just Fleeting Expertise to drop it to 40 energy cost.  Additionally if they really wanted to be able to spam as much as before, they'd likely need to use Flow or Primed Flow so their energy pool would make up the difference that was lost, and that would also need them to collect more energy orbs in order to fill their pool.

As a result, nuke frames will have to decide whether to sacrifice efficiency and not be able to spam-nuke everything, or lose range, strength or duration, reducing their nuke effectiveness.  Then, if they decide to lose efficiency, they'll need frames like Trinity in order to continue doing what they do right now.  Also in theory this wouldn't necessarily interfere with any frames build, as the only things that would go up is the energy cost of their abilities by whatever margin their efficiency is while still keeping the effectiveness of those abilities the same.

Yes, this is largely what I had in mind.

Quote

The negative of this obviously would be that channelling abilities would suffer through this change.  Razorwing, World On Fire, Maim & Mend, Desecrate etc. would all become somewhat more energy hungry, but I don't think it'd be enough to severely hurt those kinds of builds (unless of course the efficiency change didn't affect energy drain on channelling abilities, so 160% power efficiency still offered it's highest value), but everything else 'should' work pretty much as it was before, as none-dps heavy frames rarely spam their abilities and usually leave an excess of energy orbs in their wake with all the corpses.

So there you go, problem solved without pointing fingers at specific frames or waving blame around.  It also opens the opportunity for DE to create new efficiency mods which, again, would mean players would have to decide whether to ignore those mods or sacrifice duration, range or strength in order to make their abilities slightly more spammy.

Agreed, though channeled abilities could be further tweaked with regards to initial costs and drain rates. It would also help do develop a larger variety of support type powers driving efficiency, partial refunds, and active recoveries.

EDIT: I really appreciate your willingness to work toward a more constructive solution, BTW, so thank you very much for that!

Edited by DiabolusUrsus

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Faceguy said:

Oof, ya got me. I knew someone would come around and ignore the top half, for the bottom.

To be clear, I just wanted to point out the double-standard you were getting into. I didn't take much issue with your discussion of how we got to this point, or why there will be chafing with any real solution. At least when Viver/etc. were still current it was entire teams cooperating to achieve that degree of efficiency. Sure, players sitting around pressing 1 key was dull, but notice that players weren't complaining about nukers stealing all the fun.

Not saying that a revert to that point would be good, just that it illustrates players wouldn't be complaining if they at least had something to do toward the common goal.

Quote

Earned is a strong word, tho. I'd never be so egotistical to imply that I earned the right to deny others kills or gameplay.

What I was getting at here is the idea that because vets put time and effort into grinding up their gear, that gear is somehow sacred and untouchable because any reduction in efficacy somehow disrespects their "effort" or "investment." I don't think anyone really wants to see nuke frames get nerfed into uselessness, and I wouldn't support anyone who did any more than

Quote

I just played the game how it looked like it was generally meant to be played. I'm really not one of the jerk-offs that sits in pubs and nukes everyone's day away, because I started my campaign on this game playing with friends, and generally still do. Like I said in my above post: half a sense. My life on this game is with friends and clanmates, not in pubs.

Then you're really not part of the problem. Notice how nobody is coming in and saying "OMG, this friend I had in a private match was nuking and it just ruined my day!" The fundamental argument I want to make here is that at the most basic levelevery player has an equal right to play, insofar as we have the "right" to do anything in this game. The general expectation is that when you log in and queue up a mission, you play the mission.

Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to me that the players who are hijacking entire missions are the ones who get to say "well, you just don't get to use public matchmaking then." Public matchmaking is there as a simple tool for playing the game. If players want to agree to a very specific and polarizing strategy like map nuking, that's really what belongs in recruiting chat. If efficiency is really what matters to these players, getting a premade group with carefully picked synergies is going to be infinitely more efficient than a public match. The reality of the situation though, is that these players are not concerned with "efficiency" so much as "convenience." That's why they want to force players who merely want the opportunity to participate out of the public sphere.

I actually agree that players have to be willing to tolerate the presence of players they may not agree with or enjoy playing with in public, but I think the game needs to meet the minimum standard that "everybody gets to play."

I am also a largely friends-only/solo player who ventures into pubs fairly rarely (mostly for Fissures and topping off those last 2-3 levels on a Forma'd item), so it's not like I'm complaining because I'm raging at nukers with some sort of personal grudge. I just think that it should be fairly obvious that there's an issue here, and that the idea of everyone having the right to participate should be self-evident and beyond debate.

Quote

In the end though, it always comes full circle. This community's always been divisive, and nothing much can be done about that.

Lemme put it this way.

Players on both sides of this issue (lemme nuke vs. lemme play) are like kids in the schoolyard. DE is like the teacher. When the nuke side accuses the play side of being "selfish" for complaining and getting things nerfed, they're basically saying "don't be a tattletale." But the thing is, "tattling" isn't going to have any effect unless someone is actually getting wronged by the interaction. If the lemme nuke side isn't actually doing anything wrong, they're not going to get nuked nerfed for it.

If a nerf happens, it means the nuke side of it was "wrong." The play side of it isn't at fault for complaining about the problem to get it fixed.

This has happened at least twice before, and I expect it will continue to happen until the problem is actually resolved.

Quote

My friends and I leech off each other all the time tho, ngl. The idea being, when one's behind, grind the other up. Friends are nice.

When we get bored, we race to see who can nuke the hardest.

That's cool, and I agree. I really don't care at all what players choose to do in private matches where everyone is on the same page and having fun. And to be perfectly clear, I don't want to see "nukes" get completely destroyed or anything like that. It's not about removing DPS powers. It's about lowering the bar a little bit so that they can't unilaterally hijack entire multiplayer sessions.

Edited by DiabolusUrsus

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1 hour ago, ReaverKane said:

Ok, First about Ember... No one really knows, because Equinox always had more range than ember and does the same effect in lower level missions... I'm thinking that they just looked at the plat prices that people were selling embers primes back then and got scared...

No, it's pretty certain that the majority of nuking complaints at that time were aimed at Ember. Ember was simply more common in the applicable matches.

1 hour ago, ReaverKane said:

Nukers play public, because that's the way the game is meant to be played...

So if public is the "way the game is meant to be played..." let's force players to abandon public matchmaking because they want the opportunity to actually play the game? 

:facepalm:

Real A+ logic on your part there, pal.

1 hour ago, ReaverKane said:

And you should be happy a nuker enters your match, since it'll make it easier to level your gear, not to mention faster, in fact the person coming of the worse is the nuker, unless he's leveling the actual warframe.

Its funny, because this is the crucial example of the "can't please everyone" issue, since now and then you'll see people complaining about leechers, since they have a easier time leveling warframes, and then comes the other people that complain they want to spend longer leveling, and that other people (who can do maths in their head) shouldn't play the game, because they wants to play vauban in defense...

There's several of you in every god-damn MMORPG, people that want to be "special", can't read the writing on the wall, ignore the meta (read the most efficient and effective ways to play), and then complain in the forum that everyone else should play your way.

Wow. Just... wow.

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On 2019-04-26 at 9:38 PM, [DE]Megan said:
  • All Resurgence Burdens will now be removed if the player needing revival leaves/dies, and if you die while carrying Resurgence Burdens.

Not true if host dies and leaves. I stuck with 1 point after host migration.

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Possibly fix the escorted drones getting stuck during Bounties in POE? It seems to have been happening for more than a few years from what I can see and I don't believe they can be directed (tried a waypoint around a rock for fun). It just makes me abort and quit the game at times (shall I leave the underwater Archwing missions out here? Maybe I'll leave them alone as I do in the game).

Thanks for keeping on top of the rest.

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Well, after waiting a couple of days and seeing what the playerbase thinks about the new Arbitration changes...
...I can tell, I ain't gonna play Arbitrations. Not farming a couple of items and stopping there. I just won't do it at all. Not a single one. I just unlocked them a couple of weeks ago and wanted to start it, but it's "no deal" at its current state.

TLDR;

Just fix what's broken before you even think about adding features to the game mode:

  • Fix the rewards, some are just broken since their release like [Cautious Shot] and many of them are worthless.
  • Fix the features of the game mode, like the bonuses for warframes and weapons are badly implemented, not to mention the rewards of the rotations.
  • Try and rework Arbitration Drones so they don't punish players for using a weapon that needs even the slightest bit of aiming. Currently Arbitration's mechanics reward players for using faceroll meta. Similarly, warframes with low survivability are out of question for the game mode, but that is just the nature of the game.
  • Ugly weapon skins don't solve every problem the game has. It's not a magical solution to all your problems. It's not a solution to any problem at all. The Camo skins didn't solve Nightwave and now you're in trouble with Arbitrations, what did you do? Telos weaponskins. No, just no, stop it, it's time to stop.

It's not the rewards that lack. It's just a greater mess than it originally was and I can't force to stomach this garbage.

  1. Player resurrection is more like an annoying gimmick, than an actual feature. This kind of revive won't make [Inaros] less relevant and is just there to annoy players.
  2. The rotations still take beyond forever. It's "harder" with regular enemy scaling, but running around like a headless chicken surrounded by 3 other [Inaros] is never going to be exiting.
  3. The rewards haven't been changed and are still counter-productive. ABCCCCCC... sounds great until you realize that A, B and C reward tables are the exact same with less than optimal/marginal changes in droprates. What does C rotation have versus the ones before it:
    • Less ayatan sculptures and higher chance to get endo. Since Nightwave, empty Ayatan sculptures have way many times more value than their equivalent in endo.
    • Endo as a reward in an "endgame" mode is just useless. Those 2k endo rewards belong to other content, like replacing tier5 bounty endo rewards and such.
    • Higher chance for mods you never need more than a single one in your entire career.
    • Not going to farm hundreds of hours for stupid grass, I like Oberon, but he can just go and hang himself, I don't care.
  4. The power bonuses are unchanged, which is the greatest glaring that one can even see before even starting Arbitrations:
    • Warframes, they don't universally become more powerful with 300% ability power.
      • [Valkyr], [Volt], [Titania], [Zephyr] all scale beyond reasonable levels with that much ability power added on top of their builds. War Cry Valkyr becomes unplayable even with a negative ability power mod added. It's a bonus that is not helping at all.
      • [Saryn], [Gara], [Garuda] and some others have abilities that scale into infinity, they don't need more ability power. Their killing power is not lacking, if anything, they need more defensive stats, ability power being virtually useless to these warframes.
      • [Loki] and a few others have no practical scaling with ability power and use ability power as their dump stat in every possible build.
    • Weapons are extremely bipolar in this regard, while 300% damage is a good bonus for anything, there are three major groups of weapons in this regard.
      • Weapons that are in general broken powerful even without the 300% damage bonus. [Tiberon Prime], [Tigris Prime] and some others might see some use, but the Arbitration Drones in general punish players with weapons that require aiming.
      • Weapons that are useless even if you give them 300% damage bonus. I'm looking at the [Kraken] right now, but the [Stug] is also a great example.
      • Weapons that are powerful in Arbitrations, practically any powerhouse that deals area of effect damage or chaining without self-damage. [Amprex], [Ignis Wraith], [Catchmoon], [Arca Plasmor], [Atomos] and some Zaws that can reach hitboxes floating fairly high. Nobody will use anything, but these. One could try [Napalm Grenades] [Penta] too if [Cautious Shot] wasn't a disfunctional garbage mod.

That said, I'm going to stay away from Arbitrations until this whole mess gets reverted or reworked properly. Don't you believe it?

Ohhh, just think about it. Arbitrations have no exclusive rewards to force player into farming for them:

  • [Adaptation], [Power Donation] and [Rolling Guard] are tradeble.
  • The Telos weaponskins are not even skins, they are just different base colors. Can apply to your weapon anytime.
  • Ephemera... ...Garuda can hang herself too. Not to mention that the Bleeding Body looks more like a very very different bodily liquid, not exactly blood.
  • [Cautious Shot] is disfunctional in multiple layers.
  • As someone who likes to use weapons with self-damage, I can tell you: It will kill you with or without this mod in one single shot. In order to make it work at all, it should have at bare minimum 99% reduction in self-damage to be even close to being marginally useful.
  • Not that hard to fix, as the source of damage already has a tag in the software, the mod could just put a health-gate on damage sourced by the player him/herself, to not deal more than 99% of the current health of a player. Ohhh, I am just a hobby game developer, don't mind me, I'm just doing your job DE. That was the mod would start having a function, but the player would still remain punished for shooting him/herself in the face.
  • You can equip the mod on a weapon that doesn't even have self-damage - talking about the [Ignis] family -, yet you can't equip it on a lot of other weapons with self-damage. To solve that, just turn it into an arcane or a Warframe mod. It's just useless currently.
  • Not gonna farm for Archgun rivens, no way, ain't gonna happen. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not ever.
  • Archguns are bad, as Heavy guns they are abysmal bad. Going out of my way to get rivens for my weakest weaponslot that will eventually get nerfed to the ground is just not going to happen.
  • This time, DE failed to bait us into this stupid farming. Setting the riven disposition on the guns upon releasing their rivens wasn't a bright move. Now we got it all confirmed which archguns will get nerfed to the ground and which ones will be spared. One can see that the only usable archguns that are on par with some of the mediocre weapons in the game will be nerfed into oblivion. I'm not a cretin to waste my time.

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when is that generic, uninspired and extremely loud sound effect when you open navigation gonna get replaced?

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how about the bug that a bounty in cetus lets you see what arcane you got after capturing a eidolon last time i am pretty sure you will get double the amount of arcane instead of one pls de fix this

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17 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You think I don't have Ember or Mirage?

Why are you blaming the players who complained instead of the players who generated those complaints?

I agree that Ember needs buffs, and I will fully support effective buffs to her kit to make her viable for higher-level content. But that doesn't mean map-nuking is needed.

Yes, I agree that is a problem which needs to be fixed.

Again, why are you blaming the complaints and not the behavior that led to those complaints.

Do you feel "I want to be allowed to play" is an unfair or unreasonable complaint?

BullS#&amp;&#036;.

The Ember nerf was done horribly - it further weakened Ember without actually solving the problem related to the complaints; Ember can still nuke low level content. It was a bad nerf, which should have been handled differently.

I know why: more teammates = more spawns to nuke.

I play Warframe to play it, not to watch others play it for me. It's not like "easy victories" are in short supply or particularly valuable in this game.

The irony of this complaint is really something else.

Lies. If a player is specifically helping a friend/clanmate that can easily be done in a private match where nobody will complain.

Nukers play public to get boosted spawns. That's all there is to it.

Bingo.

If nukers were merely doing a public service, they would gladly stop if asked to stop. They typically refuse to stop, though.

HAH. 

Neat, so do I.

Neat, so do I.

Utter hyperbole.

4 players killing 100% of the enemies can be just as fast as 1 player killing 100% of the enemies.

Nerfing DPS a bit does not stop a frame from being DPS if it still deals more damage faster than non-DPS frames.

Nothing, because as I openly acknowledge, it was a bad nerf that failed to actually address the problem. It should have been done differently.

Why do you assume those Warframes should be exempt? The problem is solo map-nuking.

No single Warframe should be able to nuke the map without active teammate support.

That doesn't mean DPS frames can't exist or be useful.

That doesn't mean missions need to take 10x as long to finish.

That doesn't mean DPS frames shouldn't be solo-viable.

It just means that 1 player should not be able to unilaterally hijack the entire mission when 3 other players also want to play.

I know what is one thing you don't have.

You have no chill.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

But not really, because they can nuke just as effectively with or without you. What I was saying is that such support should be NEEDED to achieve such and excessive kill rate.

Real talk, people who argue against nerfs like this only ever seem to make bad faith arguments reliant on character assassination and slippery slopes instead of addressing any material points.

Yes, how DARE we expect that in a 4 player multiplayer game all 4 players are able to participate. That's crazy talk. 3 players leeching off 1 other is clearly preferable and the superior gameplay experience.

But with a Trinity for energy, Rhino for ability strength boost,  they can farm even bigger numbers of focus in ESO than without the optimal team. 

Character assassination, implies you have one. Look at how you meticulously attack and argue, sometimes sentence for sentence, word for word, with every person that argues for a playstyle that does not conform to your expectation.

Yes, how dare you demand anything in a PUBLIC matchmaking game. Something about the word public you seem to miss. 

Public matchmaking = expect EVERYTHING. Newbies with no clue. People with Mastery Rank 1 everything and 0 mods. People who might want to leech. People who want to carry and kill everything for everyone. People who just want a power trip and kill things just cos killing fast is their definition of fun. People want to to get relics fast. People who want to kill things slow. People who want to be as stylish as possible and everything they are using is just being used for looks and feels and nothing to do with speed. People who try to outdo the nuker, but with a non-nuke frame. And some people kill fast because they frankly consider Hydron and similar maps fodder leveling grounds, against brain-dead Ai, and see no point trying hard at all against such trivial enemies. 

But oh no. People aren't allowed to have options to kill fast or slow. No. Woe betide anyone who plays different from you. They all have to participate and kill at more or less the same rate, in some vague meaningful way, according to your desires, and anything else is not allowed. Pretty sure if you could, you'd snap us all away. 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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Posted (edited)

I would prefer it if the melee system had an option to toggle the changes on and off. Since I did like being able to switch to my melee weapon instead of having it switch when I use melee.

Edited by Bruised_Spartan

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Status negation abilities not fully working on PoE - can't use them to facilitate Riven unveil

 

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3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

But with a Trinity for energy, Rhino for ability strength boost,  they can farm even bigger numbers of focus in ESO than without the optimal team.

That's not the point I was making.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Character assassination, implies you have one. Look at how you meticulously attack and argue, sometimes sentence for sentence, word for word, with every person that argues for a playstyle that does not conform to your expectation.

So now disagreeing with people and debating their points equates to not having character?

Huh.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Yes, how dare you demand anything in a PUBLIC matchmaking game. Something about the word public you seem to miss. 

Public matchmaking = expect EVERYTHING. Newbies with no clue.

Who ought to get help and guidance from more experienced players, not be left even more confused because some vet would rather have them around for better spawns.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

People with Mastery Rank 1 everything and 0 mods.

Again, who ought to get help and guidance from more experienced players.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

People who might want to leech.

Leeching is bannable.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

People who want to carry and kill everything for everyone. People who just want a power trip and kill things just cos killing fast is their definition of fun.

Killing fast is fine. Killing so fast that 3/4 players can't do anything is not fine.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

People want to to get relics fast.

And I'm not claiming they shouldn't. Those missions still finish in ~3 minutes with or without a nuker.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Peoplewho want to kill things slow.

The difference here is that people going slow can't actually hijack public matches. If they try to kill "slow" the team will simply leave them behind.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Peoplewho want to be as stylish as possible and everything they are using is just being used for looks and feels and nothing to do with speed. 

Neat, how are they relevant?

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

People who try to outdo the nuker, but with a non-nuke frame.

I have literally never seen a player attempt this in public.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

And some people kill fast because they frankly consider Hydron and similar maps fodder leveling grounds, against brain-dead Ai, and see no point trying hard at all against such trivial enemies. 

Again, killing fast is fine. Killing so fast that 3/4 players can't do anything is not fine.

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

But oh no. People aren't allowed to have options to kill fast or slow. No. Woe betide anyone who plays different from you. They all have to participate and kill at more or less the same rate, in some vague meaningful way, according to your desires, and anything else is not allowed. Pretty sure if you could, you'd snap us all away. 

Seriously, the only thing you seem to be capable of is making bad-faith arguments that a) don't address the counterpoints I make and b) tell outright lies about what I am saying.

Lying doesn't help your cause. Here, this is what I am actually saying, not that you'll bother to read or understand it:

The fundamental argument I want to make here is that at the most basic levelevery player has an equal right to play, insofar as we have the "right" to do anything in this game. The general expectation is that when you log in and queue up a mission, you play the mission.

Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to me that the players who are hijacking entire missions are the ones who get to say "well, you just don't get to use public matchmaking then." Public matchmaking is there as a simple tool for playing the game. If players want to agree to a very specific and polarizing strategy like map nuking, that's really what belongs in recruiting chat. If efficiency is really what matters to these players, getting a premade group with carefully picked synergies is going to be infinitely more efficient than a public match. The reality of the situation though, is that these players are not concerned with "efficiency" so much as "convenience." That's why they want to force players who merely want the opportunity to participate out of the public sphere.

I actually agree that players have to be willing to tolerate the presence of players they may not agree with or enjoy playing with in public, but I think the game needs to meet the minimum standard that "everybody gets to play."

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On 2019-04-26 at 2:38 PM, MirageKnight said:

- Make Ogris fun again and give it a semi-auto trigger. Make the rockets only detonate after they've traveled 6m (at least), for obvious safety reasons. 

But....but then i can't dragoon-drop my victims!

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On 2019-04-26 at 1:38 PM, MirageKnight said:

Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox and Mag still being non-coop friendly by being able to completely dominate / nuke small defense maps with ridiculous ease. Being able to grab 200+ kills by Wave 5 on Hydron mostly with abilities while the rest of the squad gets 50 or less kills each is NOT balanced. We want to play and participate, not be bored to tears because someone decided to delete most of the enemies for us with an OP ability.

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Please randomize Arbitrations missions, don't let it repeat with the same mission type (eg.Defense, Defense and freaking Defense again).

It's really a pain in the butt to check each hour for preferable mission type and it gives same mission again and again.

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On 2019-04-26 at 2:38 PM, MirageKnight said:

Improvements and fixes are always (and should be) appreciated when they arrive. That being said, the following is a reminder that there are still no fixes / solutions for the following bugs and issues that have been observed:

- Arch-guns being largely mediocre in comparison to regular ranged weapons.

- Nekros Shadows being affected by Renewal, thus posing a massive and unreasonable energy drain on Oberon players.

- Broken firing animations for Phaedra when used as a Heavy Weapon.

- Broken animations for Grattler in general.

- Broken animations for Atlas' "robes": The left one tends to bunch up and push to one side when large, bulky primary weapons (like Ogris and Plasmor) are equipped.

- Broken animations and fx / sfx for Sarpa if attack speed is too high.

- Vauban and Wukong being generally boring and almost completely out-classed by meta DPS Frames such as Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox, etc.

- Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox and Mag still being non-coop friendly by being able to completely dominate / nuke small defense maps with ridiculous ease. Being able to grab 200+ kills by Wave 5 on Hydron mostly with abilities while the rest of the squad gets 50 or less kills each is NOT balanced. We want to play and participate, not be bored to tears because someone decided to delete most of the enemies for us with an OP ability.

- The Wolf of Saturn Six being a boring bullet-sponge and gear-check enemy that punishes players for head-shotting and who rewards us with a subpar drop table that has mods you can easily get anywhere else. Likewise, having the three Fugitives that accompany him staying invincible as long as the Wolf is still fighting is an arguably TERRIBLE design, especially considering that it can take some players up to 20-30 minutes to kill the Wolf himself.

- Arguably terrible pacing and lackluster rewards for Arbitrations.

- Nightwave failing to truly respect player time and commitment and being geared towards players with far too much free-time.

- Host Migrations NOT pausing the game. This has been an issue for years and it can be game-breaking.

- Energy colors being bugged / broken for certain Warframes, accessories, and abilities.


Also, it would be really appreciated if you all could:

- Allow us to, if possible, opt out of certain Warframe abilities (such as Volt's Speed and Limbo's Rift portals) by default via a game preference toggle. We can turn off Octavia's sounds for other players because of how intrusive they can be. Why not potentially intrusive abilities?

- Give us manual blocking options back for melee. Because 1. stances and a couple of mods use blocking and 2. auto-blocking can be really inconvenient and irritating.

- Make Ogris fun again and give it a semi-auto trigger. Make the rockets only detonate after they've traveled 6m (at least), for obvious safety reasons.

- Bring back regular Alerts for players that either can't or don't want to deal with Nightwave. We players appreciate having options.

- Lower the credit cost to build Ephemera to 10k credits and drop the resource costs by 90%. Also, lower the grind needed to get the things. It's a cosmetic item that does nothing but leave footprints / trails that disappear after a few seconds.

Thanks for reading.

100% agree especially about the melee stuff. i've been playing warframe since closed beta and i finally walked away form warframe for good after melee phase 1. i'm a melee main, that never shoots and mastered the melee system. what DE shouldve changed about the melee system they didn't instead they gutted the entire system and then call it, "change" i walked away and uninstalled warframe. At this time i learned a very valuable lesson, "never invest in online only games, especially "MMO-Lite" ones. Because the same game you love and master will be an entirely different game and spit in your face by the developers. Auto-Block is the worse thing i've ever seen in a video game, what type of ninja doesn't do his own blocking. mele phase 1 is a disgrace and a F'U to the veterans of this game. If DE, didn't want us to play anymore they could've just come out and ask. you can tell that whoever made these changes doesn't play warframe and doens't melee AT all. Sword and shields are now a disgrace and just feels awful, everything is a mess. Uninstalled thisgame 6 weeks ago i beleive and It's so sad. DE doesn't give a crap about melee, so i don't know why they took teh time to implement it all these years. Melee phase 1 , is a slap in the face and a big FU.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-04-28 at 10:38 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

 

The fundamental argument I want to make here is that at the most basic levelevery player has an equal right to play, insofar as we have the "right" to do anything in this game. The general expectation is that when you log in and queue up a mission, you play the mission.

 

A fundamentally flawed expectation and extremely idealistic. Also warped by your own idea of what is play, which, for you is some ambiguous idea that everyone should have to do something to make the mission progress. What constitutes this one person cannot do 4 person's jobs to you? Do you expect the mission end result screen to have an almost equal 25 % damage done each? You expect Loki and Saryn to roughly perform the same? When the former excels at stealth and the latter excels at killing. If the latter is nerfed to kill as fast as the former, nobody will pick Saryn anymore because being invisible and avoiding damage would be better to achieve the same result. And even if you do not think this should be so, and allow Saryn to kill fast but not too fast, whatever the heck would this mean in terms of numbers, since it also depends on someone mods? You nerf Saryn according to an umbral build, 175% efficiency, the player without an umbral build or lacking mods might end up suffering. 

And  even with one nuker nuking the map, you still can do something. You can loot the place. You can attempt to outkill the nuker. I do this personally. When I pick a warframe that lacks synergy with the nuker (like maybe Atlas or Ash), I instead opt to try to run ahead and kill faster (if the map type or mission mode allows - see, if DE reworks all the maps and makes them bigger, this issue of nuker's AOE radius becomes less of a problem. And nerfing the warframe radius does NOT solve the problem because then you make them even weaker in open world maps.) It gets fun when you actually succeed at killing faster than a warframe inherently designed to kill the fastest. And when I fail to kill faster, it's fine anyway, I still helped the mission go faster by eliminating those tanky or immune to ability enemies like Noxes or Nullifiers. And I see no point in asking for nerfs on the warframes that I cannot kill faster than because I am literally asking my own challenge to be removed.

Lastly, you will say I am using some slippery slope argument but it is VALID and definitely will happen. As long as we have people like you around, there will be never ending nerfs, shifting according to the meta. Look at MirageKnight's post, he includes Mag in it.  I remember a time she wasn't included in any nerf list, and it was a meme that she is useless.

So what then? After all the strong 4 to wins go, Then what? People will go after the mediocre 4 to wins, like Rhino's, Limbo's, that can still be spammed to clear low level maps. Then a new bunch of people will start to complain about warframes whose first skill do too much damage like Khora's, Atlas'. Then what? No warframe should have 10 times the effective HP of others? So tanks gotta go. Then what? No warframe should CC the whole map and make the whole battle boring. Then what? No warframe should be able to hide from aggro (Invisibility). Then what? No gun should be able to kill all the enemies at spawn point with one shot in an AOE blast aimed at the spawn location. Then what? No gun should be able to just fire from hip and kill all things  (Ignis type guns) and be more effective than a gun that requires the effort of aiming down the sights. And then what? Nerf mindset needs to die. Especially nerf the meta mindset. People always gravitate towards certain things that work better at particular job.

Heck, I believe different warframes have different uses. I do not expect them all to excel at all things equally. They are like tools. Granted, some tools right now lack a use, but some of these tools that lack purpose may also only be that way because they are hybrid tools, so they fail to excel at anything but do multiple things decently.  I also blame the mission and enemies types that DE releases - they can either overemphasize killing or be ability immune. If they can think of mission types that do not just emphasize killing and introduce different goals, perhaps some frames will see more play.

Edited by Xepthrichros

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Le 28/04/2019 à 02:01, Faceguy a dit :

I just played the game how it looked like it was generally meant to be played.

No one knows how the game was meant to be played unless they're working at DE. Do you really think that spin-2-win or spamming Saryn 4th was how the game was meant to be played ? Both have been nerfed and as if DE was trying to educate some childish players who only crave about exploits and ruling their own virtual kingdom on a damn coop game.

-"Use Saryn spores first and don't try to kill what you can't see with your Atterax !"

-"No thanks, i'm still looking for exploits."

Most people know nothing, worse they're even putting a lot of effort into behaving that way. When i see a MR8 guy doing all of this stuff already i'm kind of worried about human nature and stupidity copycats. So no, people definitely don't care about how a game is meant to be played, that's how it works since a decade (perhaps more), new players don't care about anything and are eager to cheat and anger. Publishers should do something about that and nerfing every single exploit ASAP cause as long as this people will still have some social disorders we won't enjoy a real coop game with interesting people to play with.

On the bright side there are still some awesome people around if one is lucky enough to play with randomly, not that common but it's always a pleasure to meet them. So rare in fact that each time it happens, they're saying how great time they've had.

If DE can't solve some people education issues, then they should at least prevent toxic behaviour to happen in game - they're already struggling with scams and insults, but they totally forgot that gameplay can also be toxic at some point. Playing solo with other players on a coop game shouldn't be.

Edited by 000l000
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21 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

No one knows how the game was meant to be played unless they're working at DE. Do you really think that spin-2-win or spamming Saryn 4th was how the game was meant to be played ? Both have been nerfed and as if DE was trying to educate some childish players who only crave about exploits and ruling their own virtual kingdom on a damn coop game.

-"Use Saryn spores first and don't try to kill what you can't see with your Atterax !"

-"No thanks, i'm still looking for exploits."

Most people know nothing, worse they're even putting a lot of effort into behaving that way. When i see a MR8 guy doing all of this stuff already i'm kind of worried about human nature and stupidity copycats. So no, people definitely don't care about how a game is meant to be played, that's how it works since a decade (perhaps more), new players don't care about anything and are eager to cheat and anger. Publishers should do something about that and nerfing every single exploit ASAP cause as long as this people will still have some social disorders we won't enjoy a real coop game with interesting people to play with.

On the bright side there are still some awesome people around if one is lucky enough to play with randomly, not that common but it's always a pleasure to meet them. So rare in fact that each time it happens, they're saying how great time they've had.

If DE can't solve some people education issues, then they should at least prevent toxic behaviour to happen in game - they're already struggling with scams and insults, but they totally forgot that gameplay can also be toxic at some point. Playing solo with other players on a coop game shouldn't be.

Everyone who plays in a way you don't like is toxic.  Everyone who plays like you do is awesome. That's all you got to say. 

Most people using 4 to win etc. are not actively "exploiting" anything. The word "exploit" is not even in their mind. They read what the ability does. They figure "this frame is for DPS" and use it. You just want to project and use the worst labels to refer to every aspect of the game you disagree with so as to get the dev's attention and make them change things. The toxic person is you trying to arm twist the devs into obeying your design for the game.

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On 2019-04-27 at 4:06 AM, Laggin_Prime said:

Such unnecessary changes to a system that was not in need of a change compared to many things. 

Kuva survival remains un-touched for how long now?   Kavat still dies in the crack for no reason minus it getting stuck.   Playing for over 20 mins gives no rewards yet makes the siphon able to get one shot.

In game map is terrible.  When will it be fixed?  Play a exterminate and tell me the map is amazing with a straight face.

Host migration is awful.     Host migration is one of those things that i think we should finally have dedicated servers for.    Why have them for conclave and not the base game?

Did not change the rewards in arbitrations.   I am MR 27 and do not need Endo why would I waste my time for endo?  Is this suppose to be end game?  I have NO reason to go do these missions before and as I see i will be avoiding them still. 

WHO in the hell was asking for these changes?

I get DE is trying to get/keep newer players but making the "endgame" easier is not the way. I feel they looked a database and said "not enough people are playing arbitration let's nerf it to make it more accessible."   Why do they always sacrifice their vets in the game?  This update was 100% a waste no one asked for these changes no one needed these changes.  

I do love DE I really do but wow this update is terrible when there is so many other things that need attention/tweaked/reworked/removed.  I know they get a lot of positive attention for listening to the community but what community member ever said to change it this way?

 

Do veterans buy platinum with money or do the new players? Yes, yes, u can say u buy cosmetic otherwise. When I began to play, i bought plat a few times, bought some tennogen, and when i reached endgame, I havent spent anymore money because i can sell many things for plat, and for fashion, i dont mind very much after all, so it;s all down to gameplay in the end. And the point is, new players are the main source to keep the company alive, for DE to continue making the game, not the amount of time that veterans play the game. I still have many complaints about the game, but i see the whole picture rather than just sitting and complaining about some small things that is pretty much personal opinions or desires.

Btw, Im mr 27 and i still need endo, and many still do. And arbitration is the first main mode for people to get endo now, if u have redundant of it, just max some mods or primed mods then sell them. And again, mastery rank DOESNT say anything, stop saying outloud the mr before saying anything, as well as put "prime" or "umbra" in the player's name doesnt make people know everything about the game, the 3D industry and the global economy.

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On 2019-04-26 at 9:38 PM, Arbitrations said:

click spoiler for my thoughts on the hotfix but there's posts more relevant than this one below

  Reveal hidden contents

 

thanks for changing that

thanks for changing that

the Tenno star chart is once again saved from missing eyeball textures... or are we?

 

 

nobody cares about your opinion lole exdi

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The fundamental argument I want to make here is that at the most basic levelevery player has an equal right to play, insofar as we have the "right" to do anything in this game. The general expectation is that when you log in and queue up a mission, you play the mission.

This is a bit flawed chain of thought IMHO. Do you go search for tokens all over the map on a syndicate mission because you have some spare time in real life or do you run like mad to extraction being late to the movie? Do you go searching in some remote corner for that elusive Orokin cell which you desperately need to craft new and shining frame, while the other 3 players struggle with some ugly mobile defense? Will you step out of EZ to wait for level 3 player, who spawned in the middle of the mission, to get that 10th reactant? And the only word that player knows in English is "wait" or "pls"? He/she is not playing the mission and delaying everyone who are, again, late for a movie? Then why complaining about nukes? Some people have limited time and they still want to accomplish something. Especially, if they have not played WF for 29 years and still need a lot of basic resources and experience right now and fast to level whatever little they have? Are those MR3 Excaliburs on Lith happy that some MR27 guy joined with a banshee and is quake-nuking the map just because there is an urgent need to get some ducats to buy a new outfit from Baro? Maybe it is a good time to use sonar instead? Maybe, that player does not care at all about anything? That banshee is playing the mission after all and quite efficiently.

There is real life with real people there somewhere. So, IDK of course, why not let people do what they want, move at their own pace and try to respect each other. There are no universal answers to the questions like this IMHO. It all depends on too many things that are out of control.

Edited by akots
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