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Plains of Eidolon Remaster: Hotfix 24.8.1

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Thanks you for those fixes and changes.

We are also pleased to see fixes for Lunaro in the last few patchnotes, but I would like to point out that there are still quite a few problems that really need fixing if you and intending to make the mode fun again.
Thanks again for your hard work.

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Am 26.4.2019 um 20:38 schrieb MirageKnight:

- Arch-guns being largely mediocre in comparison to regular ranged weapons.

- Vauban and Wukong being generally boring and almost completely out-classed by meta DPS Frames such as Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox, etc.

- Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox and Mag still being non-coop friendly by being able to completely dominate / nuke small defense maps with ridiculous ease. Being able to grab 200+ kills by Wave 5 on Hydron mostly with abilities while the rest of the squad gets 50 or less kills each is NOT balanced. We want to play and participate, not be bored to tears because someone decided to delete most of the enemies for us with an OP ability.

- The Wolf of Saturn Six being a boring bullet-sponge and gear-check enemy that punishes players for head-shotting and who rewards us with a subpar drop table that has mods you can easily get anywhere else. Likewise, having the three Fugitives that accompany him staying invincible as long as the Wolf is still fighting is an arguably TERRIBLE design, especially considering that it can take some players up to 20-30 minutes to kill the Wolf himself.

- Arguably terrible pacing and lackluster rewards for Arbitrations.

- Nightwave failing to truly respect player time and commitment and being geared towards players with far too much free-time.

Also, it would be really appreciated if you all could:

- Allow us to, if possible, opt out of certain Warframe abilities (such as Volt's Speed and Limbo's Rift portals) by default via a game preference toggle. We can turn off Octavia's sounds for other players because of how intrusive they can be. Why not potentially intrusive abilities?

- Give us manual blocking options back for melee. Because 1. stances and a couple of mods use blocking and 2. auto-blocking can be really inconvenient and irritating.

- Make Ogris fun again and give it a semi-auto trigger. Make the rockets only detonate after they've traveled 6m (at least), for obvious safety reasons.

- Bring back regular Alerts for players that either can't or don't want to deal with Nightwave. We players appreciate having options.

- Lower the credit cost to build Ephemera to 10k credits and drop the resource costs by 90%. Also, lower the grind needed to get the things. It's a cosmetic item that does nothing but leave footprints / trails that disappear after a few seconds.

I disagree with all of the above!
Especially the nightwave and arbitration complaints.

The Wolf being as bullet spongy as he is requires you to always bring a weapon that can kill him in one of your three slots, which seems absolutely reasonable. I would much prefer to see buffs to all other assassins than another nerf to the wolf. Even though I agree that his drop table is aweful.

Nightwave allows far better control over how you want to spend the time you have to play the game. Dedicating 2-4 hours to Nightwave per week will yield all the weekly challenges done and you can spend the wolf cred much more sensible than having to gamble to be online at the right time to catch an alert. Arguably the wolfcred cost of items might have to be adjusted but that can done best when the next nightwave starts.

Reintroducing alerts would have to be balanced by raising wolf cred cost and reducing alert frequencys, since it is basically just more opportunitys for the same loot. Both nightwave and alerts are global systems you can not opt out of (and imo should not be able to). Therefore asking to reintroduce alerts is asking for 2 bad systems instead of one good system. To me Nightwave is the superior concept that development time and resources should be focussed towards, instead of trying to reintroduce an inferior old system.

Arbitrations are endgame content that have been introduced to challenge veteran players. The rewards in this mode should not be the focus and/or reason to play this mode! If slower reward rotations mean that fewer people play them then let it be so. In my opinion discouraging people from joining arbitrations just for the reward is a good game design decision. I don't want to have the same problem that I have with public Tridolons. If you can not carry yourself through the mission don't play it. It is fine for other missions and partly even pub tridolons, but not in a game mode where death means failure.

Ephemera serve the same purpose as vitus essence rewards they are rare endgame cosmetics. It is a prestige object that would be devalued by making them cheap and/or easy to obtain. I am absolutely fine with paying 100 orokin cells and 10 million credits for an ephemera.

Arch-guns have currently only one single purpose in the non-archwing missions, which is PTO. The damage they output for that fight is sufficient with the type of damage buffs you will need to bring to deal with the shields anyways. Otherwise they are a gimmick and thats fine. Once Railjack is released and there are more reasons to use arch guns and standard guns in the same environment they will need to get a balance check.

Ogris is still a ton of fun and self damage has always been a part of that gun. Building and playing to avoid the self damage is a skill, I don't see a reason to dumb down this aspect of the game. The only thing I want back is the old design, even if it's a skin I have to pay 25 plat for.

Vauban might not be the most popular at the moment, but if DE decides to reintroduce content that favors CC over damage he will once again be a top frame. At the moment we are lacking the appropriate content. That being said I think even now what holds Vauban back the most is that his kit wants all stats at once, he needs strength for bastille and shred, range for bastille and vortex, duration for all abilites and efficency to keep them up.

Lastly DPS frames being coop unfriendly. I admittedly had neither heard nor thought of this one. The only mission i can imagine this happening is in defense or interception missions since you dont have the freedom to go to another part of the map. In those 2 mission types typically you want to just level weapons and get out again, so it seems helpful to have a DPS that can kill more than you can. If you dont want to party because you want to test your frame I dont see why you would want to que public, but maybe that's just me. Anyway I personally enjoy min maxing DPS frames and am happy to encounter someone who maybe has a better build than myself. I also find Saryn to be one of the best examples for well balanced kits. It synergyises and scaled well. I hope we see more designs like Saryn or Nidus.

So much for a little of the flip side of these opinions.

Stay sane Tenno

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8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

A fundamentally flawed expectation and extremely idealistic. 

Based on everything else you said, you don't have any idea what it is I'm actually saying. You rely entirely on strawmen to dance around the simple statement that every player should actually be able to, y'know, play Warframe. Not idle while someone else plays Warframe.

I'm not going to bother addressing anything you say when you can only dodge my counter-points and continue ranting.

2 hours ago, akots said:

This is a bit flawed chain of thought IMHO. Do you go search for tokens all over the map on a syndicate mission because you have some spare time in real life or do you run like mad to extraction being late to the movie? Do you go searching in some remote corner for that elusive Orokin cell which you desperately need to craft new and shining frame, while the other 3 players struggle with some ugly mobile defense? Will you step out of EZ to wait for level 3 player, who spawned in the middle of the mission, to get that 10th reactant? And the only word that player knows in English is "wait" or "pls"? He/she is not playing the mission and delaying everyone who are, again, late for a movie? Then why complaining about nukes?

Because unlike nukes, players cannot force their teammates to play along with any of these. The extraction timer solves this problem for them.

The issue is when 1 player can force 3 others to not play.

2 hours ago, akots said:

Some people have limited time and they still want to accomplish something.

Can you please not repeat bad arguments that have already been addressed?

I am one of those players who have limited time to play, and I want to spend that limited time ACTUALLY PLAYING. Why is your time more important than my time?

I'm not saying nukes shouldn't exist, I'm just saying they shouldn't be so potentially powerful that they can block 75% of a team from participating.

2 hours ago, akots said:

Especially, if they have not played WF for 29 years

WF has existed for less than 10, so...?

2 hours ago, akots said:

and still need a lot of basic resources and experience right now and fast to level whatever little they have? Are those MR3 Excaliburs on Lith happy that some MR27 guy joined with a banshee and is quake-nuking the map just because there is an urgent need to get some ducats to buy a new outfit from Baro? Maybe it is a good time to use sonar instead? Maybe, that player does not care at all about anything? That banshee is playing the mission after all and quite efficiently.

Your entire argument here is "Well who knows? Maybe some people don't mind."

So what?

That doesn't change the simple fact that the basic expectation when playing a video game is that you get to play that video game. If some player can actively block you from playing, that's pretty crappy design.

2 hours ago, akots said:

There is real life with real people there somewhere. So, IDK of course, why not let people do what they want, move at their own pace and try to respect each other. There are no universal answers to the questions like this IMHO. It all depends on too many things that are out of control.

Sorry, but this is just really weak. I never said that players shouldn't be able to play how they want, or that they shouldn't respect each other.

I'm saying that nukes should be toned down JUST enough so that every player can actually PLAY. In fact, the idea that you have more of a right to nuke the map than your teammates have to simply play the game is fundamentally failing to respect them as equals.

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1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Sorry, but this is just really weak. I never said that players shouldn't be able to play how they want, or that they shouldn't respect each other.

I'm saying that nukes should be toned down JUST enough so that every player can actually PLAY. In fact, the idea that you have more of a right to nuke the map than your teammates have to simply play the game is fundamentally failing to respect them as equals.

It is all relative. You can nuke a Lith relic defense against MR3 recruits just fine with any frame/operator setup if you decide to do so regardless of what they do. Thus, you have the right to deny them whatever little pleasure they have, if they have it, and if YOU CHOOSE to do so. Game design or powers, or whatever has nothing to do with that. On the other hand, you go into 1 hr nw Kuva survival and you be thankful you have one or better two Saryns/etc there running around. That means that your view of the subject lacks universality which again, proves my point to an extent. Hence, it is not weak and is rather fair and you are indirectly confirming my statement. 🙂

Instead of arguing for the sake of argument, one can simply accept the fact that people are different. Some people walk through like slowly, enjoying the scenery. Some run through it burning themselves and all that is around them in the process. Both of these are good and fair and have a place. Game design is irrelevant here again.

There are quite a few similar games out there. I have quite a lot of hours in Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, indeed close to 2500, while being relatively new to WF. ME3 has less farming and is more skill-oriented after a certain time point. It does feature more friendly powerful kits and less friendly less visually powerful kits, hidden gems that open up only after considerable effort. The endgame there is to be better and get good, know the kits and how to use them, how to do better than Harrier/TGI (main newbie-friendly combination of character and weapon) with human sentinel with Krysae (one of the lesser kits with an awful weapon), which is entirely possible. So, if I may, why don't somebody who does not enjoy playing with nuking kits might try something to outnuke them with frames and abilities that are not considered mainstream? One can say that it is impossible and silly. Another can say that it sounds like a nice endgame challenge and fun.

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57 minutes ago, akots said:

It is all relative. You can nuke a Lith relic defense against MR3 recruits just fine with any frame/operator setup if you decide to do so regardless of what they do. Thus, you have the right to deny them whatever little pleasure they have, if they have it, and if YOU CHOOSE to do so.

Are you seriously arguing that players have the right to grief other players? That's very telling.

57 minutes ago, akots said:

Game design or powers, or whatever has nothing to do with that. On the other hand, you go into 1 hr nw Kuva survival and you be thankful you have one or better two Saryns/etc there running around. That means that your view of the subject lacks universality which again, proves my point to an extent. Hence, it is not weak and is rather fair and you are indirectly confirming my statement. 🙂

Just like Xepthrichros, you are conflating participation with performance.

I am not suggesting that a support Warframe should be able to match a DPS in terms of kills or total damage inflicted. Only that every player should be able to play.

Saryn would not magically become less useful in Kuva Survival with somewhat reduced area DPS output; it is already perfectly possible to solo that for an hour. She would still help accelerate kill rate for life support drops.

57 minutes ago, akots said:

Instead of arguing for the sake of argument, one can simply accept the fact that people are different. Some people walk through like slowly, enjoying the scenery. Some run through it burning themselves and all that is around them in the process. Both of these are good and fair and have a place. Game design is irrelevant here again.

Nonsense.

If you have designed a co-op game where only 1 player is needed and 3 aren't even playing, you have designed a bad co-op game.

Yes, some players will prefer to take it slow while other will prefer to go faster. It's on the designer to create an environment where either extreme is not overly obtrusive to teammates' experience. The slow end of it is already covered by an extraction timer. The fast end of it just needs to be reined in a bit.

57 minutes ago, akots said:

There are quite a few similar games out there. I have quite a lot of hours in Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, indeed close to 2500, while being relatively new to WF. ME3 has less farming and is more skill-oriented after a certain time point. It does feature more friendly powerful kits and less friendly less visually powerful kits, hidden gems that open up only after considerable effort. The endgame there is to be better and get good, know the kits and how to use them, how to do better than Harrier/TGI (main newbie-friendly combination of character and weapon) with human sentinel with Krysae (one of the lesser kits with an awful weapon), which is entirely possible. So, if I may, why don't somebody who does not enjoy playing with nuking kits might try something to outnuke them with frames and abilities that are not considered mainstream? One can say that it is impossible and silly. Another can say that it sounds like a nice endgame challenge and fun.

That's a lot of words dedicated to nothing of value. Your ME3 example means absolutely nothing to me. It has no logical relevance to the situation at hand - are you saying that there are builds which can kill enemies so fast teammates have nothing to shoot?

This circles back to the participation/performance distinction, which all of you seem to be overlooking or purposefully ignoring.

This is not about competing for damage or kills. It is about having a minimum degree of engagement to play rather than idle.

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> Ivara skirt is still broken to the point of being almost invisible

> Sawgaws [on the orb vallis] rarely have an actual hitbox. I've shot at it a good fifty times with different methods, traditional, Ivara Navigator, Sleep Arrow, Pacify Sleep, running up and firing tranq at point-blank. All shots pass through without ever hitting the target, out of the 20 Sawgaws I tried to capture only one ever worked and I couldn't even see where I hit as I was shooting wildly and randomly, the dart didn't even come close to the Sawgaw, on screen, itself.

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6 hours ago, 1Gorik said:

Ephemera serve the same purpose as vitus essence rewards they are rare endgame cosmetics. It is a prestige object that would be devalued by making them cheap and/or easy to obtain. I am absolutely fine with paying 100 orokin cells and 10 million credits for an ephemera.

You're fine with a massive resource sink...that contributes absolutely nothing but fx?

There's an old saying. "A fool and their money are soon parted".

Also, prestige and elite my foot. ANYONE with access to Arbitrations and the willingness to grind for hours and hours to get a random drop has a chance of getting it. All it does is leave footprints that disappear. Like the Easter Egg Ephemera. The one that cost 5k credits and does the same thing except with a different effect, that being colored eggs.

So it's an honor and a privilege to jump through hoops for a dev for the slim chance of getting a purely cosmetic reward...that you then have to dump an arguably insane amount of resources into just to get it to work?

I'm not even going to reply to the rest of your post, because if you're willing to defend something as questionable as this and as adamantly as you have, then you're arguably willing to defend ANYTHING DE offers no matter what anyone has to say.

 

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I find it interesting that the argument here seems to be whether or not Arbitrations is an endgame mode.  There's an argument that nothing in Warframe is endgame, which somehow is finally gaining traction in the community.  The non-answer of "fashion frame is endgame" is an answer that should have died years ago.

 

This being said, what do we have?  Let's shear off the star chart's missions, because the only way they'd scale to a challenge is if you entered an endless mission and just let the timer run up.  What remains?  Conclave, Arbitrations, Sorties, and the old competitions between clans during events.

Conclave is...let's call it a cat for those who prefer dogs.  PvP in a game centered around co-op missions isn't exactly a great idea, and the implementation left a lot to be desired.  It's fair to say that you don't level in PvE Warframe to access PvP, so Conclave isn't endgame.  

Arbitrations are a challenge, only in that they promote specific build types and penalize others.  If you enter an Arbitration without a Nidus, Saryn, or Rhino then you're hurting yourself.  Those arbitration drones punish glass cannons who require powers to scale, and the duration requirements for relatively minimum rewards (2% and lower drop chances mean they want you to grind forever) means this is a time sink first and a challenge only to promote the time sink.  Arbitrations can be argued to be many things, but the lack of reward and challenge with a heavy reliance on time sinking means they aren't endgame.

Sorties aren't endgame.  Once per day, variation from 10 minutes to 45 minutes (depending upon RNGesus's mission selection), and rewards that functionally don't exist statistically (I see you there legendary core) mean it's a challenge to bring people back daily with reward potential.  None of this even touches on those weeks where after a sortie you get ayatan-ayatan-endo-ayatan-endo-ayatan-ayatan rewards.  Yeah, that week was a frustrating mess.

Finally, events.  Warframe doesn't have clan competition anymore.   I can't call it endgame, because I still remember the weeks where infested sectors switched hands between groups who taxed the crap out of the missions, making them not worth doing, and the retaliatory wars to bring the taxes down.  Combine that with things like the Ignis Wraith, and you might have an endgame if Warframe did events constantly and alliances didn't just ROFL stomp people because individuals had no business in Warframe.

 

 

So, with the above stated why are the Arbitrations an endgame?  Why do they matter?  Umbral Forma and some very unique mods.  Both things are hidden behind poor drop rates, which is the only reason to keep playing.  Game modes, spurred only by the juicy rewards and poor drop tables, that highlights the fact that certain frames simply can't play the mode (looking at you Nyx, though only as a poster child for power creep eating a frame, and the mission types not matching your power set) is a bad joke.

What would endgame be?  Cut 90% of your player base out, and lock the endgame behind a test.  Completion of the test would award access to the endgame, and you'd only get a weekly chance at it.  Upon completing the test, award some cosmetic that could be displayed and make it good enough for people to want to earn.  Have the unlocked endgame scaling fixed, or a test bed for fixes coming to the regular game.  Wipe all player progress, similar to the conclave, and create scaling difficulty where unlocked progress unlocks mod slots, powers, and increased stats.  There's nothing like being stripped of power to appreciate earning it back.  Keep mission types bouncing around but optional, so no team can go in unbalanced.  Allow everyone get rewards, and make the primary focus of the rewards vaulted relics.  Pepper in spicier things like Umbral forma BPs (2%, 3 forma and 2 Nitain), Aura forma BPs (5%, 4 forma and 2 Nitain), and even tokens to collect for unique weapons (15%, where 20-30 tokens are needed and they drop in 2-5 bundles).  You demonstrate skill by starting over, teamwork by not getting stomped, and rewards by accessing old content to sell to new players (and stabilize markets by letting older players sell newer players vaulted components for lower rates that don't make the game seem pay to win).

 

In short, Arbitrations are broken as they currently are.  The logical solution is to pull out what worked (largely the rewards and cost-benefit balance inherent with the powered-up items), combine it with what used to work (power level limiting during events, forced team balancing), make sure to offer choices for players (selecting the subsequent challenges from assorted mission types), and make something that rewards sufficiently with a few non-essentials which would make their drops an excellent change of pace.  The above percentages would make getting a full boat of Umbral Forma stupid heavy on the grind, giving veterans a clear reward for huge investments.  The increased cost of Aura Forma balance out their relatively limited usage (again, 4 forma would allow you to mod 4 frames wit extra useful slots, that would make up for anything but Umbral builds) and relatively common drop rate.  The coins give you a safety net, that doesn't vanish, so that those who took a hiatus could still earn rewards before they come to Baro a year later.

This mirrors your previous events (maximum total loadout points), your current mass murder mode (ESO/SO teleporting between locations which vary), the ability to highlight any game modes, and even the possibility to modify difficulty after everything unlocks by applying a weakened debuff similar to the keys needed to unlock the derelicts.  

Despite the above, I firmly am expecting Arbitrations to die.  The reward to grind ratio is nutty, and people will see that soon enough.  Once they realize an Aura Forma is functionally a painful grind they'll give up and we'll have Conclave 2.0.  I...wish I could say that I was genuinely surprised.  Unfortunately, it seems like DE "heard our feedback," filed it in the metal cylinder (garbage can), and proceeded with whatever they wanted.  If Arbitration had better rewards, didn't highlight the broken nature of using a power function rather than an s-curve for enemy scaling, and those drones didn't penalize a large portion of play styles, then Arbitrations could be a near endgame challenge.  As it stands now, they're a poor shadow of Sorties with less potential and a greater waste of our time.

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So, I decided to try Arbitration again to see the changes for myself. The mission was infested survival, I went pug as Inaros. I used to take Nova for arbitration (and only do excavation), but I don't want my teammates to get punished if i'll die, so that was the end of that.

We were two Inaros, one Rhino and Hydroid Prime. Guess who died 5 (!) Times before just aborting after the fifth death, 48 minutes in. I never saw Hydroid in arbitration before, and for a good reason. 

For the rest of us, the mission was brain-dead easy. In no point I felt challenged or even engaged, regular Mot is more interactive than that. After 50 minutes I gave up and extracted. For my effort I got two tokens and a blu... I mean, three sculptures and some Endo. I don't know who thought it's OK, but if the reward after 10 minutes of 'endgame' activity is something I can find on the floor in any regular mission, I don't really have a reason to do said activity.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Libpea said:

Do veterans buy platinum with money or do the new players? Yes, yes, u can say u buy cosmetic otherwise. When I began to play, i bought plat a few times, bought some tennogen, and when i reached endgame, I havent spent anymore money because i can sell many things for plat, and for fashion, i dont mind very much after all, so it;s all down to gameplay in the end. And the point is, new players are the main source to keep the company alive, for DE to continue making the game, not the amount of time that veterans play the game. I still have many complaints about the game, but i see the whole picture rather than just sitting and complaining about some small things that is pretty much personal opinions or desires.

Btw, Im mr 27 and i still need endo, and many still do. And arbitration is the first main mode for people to get endo now, if u have redundant of it, just max some mods or primed mods then sell them. And again, mastery rank DOESNT say anything, stop saying outloud the mr before saying anything, as well as put "prime" or "umbra" in the player's name doesnt make people know everything about the game, the 3D industry and the global economy.

Wow wasn't expected a response like this.  I never said I knew everything and hell I don't. No where in my post I said I knew it all.  I know people need endo but I still don't think Endo should be a endgame reward and I dont think they things they fixed was the issue.  When arbitration came out it was advertised as you only having one life to live and needing the whole star chart to be unlocked. So I would call that "endgame" content no?  Why did they change respawns?  Who asked for it?    Hell check out the comments in the twiiter launch I posted.  This is a bad hotfix. Was 100% not needed when other things are wrong with the game bottom line.    No reason for bashing someones user name but whatever think what you want.   I literally have some of the worst internet and is 100% a gag name.  Go have fun in a crappy reward-less endgame mode.   PS Arena is a better and faster endo farm with the correct group.

 

Edited by Laggin_Prime

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On 2019-04-27 at 4:38 AM, MirageKnight said:


Also, it would be really appreciated if you all could:

- Allow us to, if possible, opt out of certain Warframe abilities (such as Volt's Speed and Limbo's Rift portals) by default via a game preference toggle. We can turn off Octavia's sounds for other players because of how intrusive they can be. Why not potentially intrusive abilities?

 

Just letting you know you can opt out of both of these, roll to leave rift, back roll to ditch speed.

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Le 26/04/2019 à 20:38, MirageKnight a dit :

- Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox and Mag still being non-coop friendly by being able to completely dominate / nuke small defense maps with ridiculous ease. Being able to grab 200+ kills by Wave 5 on Hydron mostly with abilities while the rest of the squad gets 50 or less kills each is NOT balanced. We want to play and participate, not be bored to tears because someone decided to delete most of the enemies for us with an OP ability.

LoS only on such frames would balance such powers but let be honest a second, getting rid of spin-2-win and sprinting Ignis/Amprex/Staticor would make non static coop way better too. Spinning attack shouldn't be spammed and AoE beam weapons range should be definitely lowered while sprinting or at least moving that fast. Small defense can be a pain but an extermination along with a Volt using an Ignis/Amprex or a Scoliac is just plain dumb.

Current metas are no brain button smash without a single aim, it's nice for solo play but a real nightmare for any other players especially since many selfish players are basically playing solo in an online game and some only care about the frags.

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The ones wanting all these warframe nerfs do you even play the open world Fortuna, if you did you'd know you need all the power and staying ability you can get when you start getting into level 100+ enemy's.

Also the times I help other players in pubs and they're low MR's while in their games I'm respectful (must be because I'm school 54yo) of what my warframes can do and use them sparingly and just help to keep the newer players alive and let them do the killing unless a bigger enemy is starting to wipe the floor with them.

It just sucks the few that go into public matches just to basically go look at me I can kill all these enemy fast I'm leet, can go and bugga off because I do not want to go through anymore Ember nerfs to other warframes because of players who complain, my Embers on the shelf now (read below quote), all the time and forma's I put into it to make it a fun frame in MY CO-OP group was for nothing, maybe I should ask the complaining and griefing players to refund me my 7 formas and all that time ranking it up, which has all to gone to waste.

 

On another thing why is it some warframes abilities work on some high enemy's and others don't, they all should work or all should not, I've noticed Atlas cannot kill a Kyta Raknoid in Fortuna using his number 1 skill yet Baruuk can kill the Wolf with his number 4 skill where Atlas cannot, needs clarity IMHO.

 I'd like to know what works and what doesn't work as far as enemy's and warframes skills, it should or could be listed in the codex when we look at an enemy it states Enemy blah blah immune to Warframe skills.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Based on everything else you said, you don't have any idea what it is I'm actually saying. You rely entirely on strawmen to dance around the simple statement that every player should actually be able to, y'know, play Warframe. Not idle while someone else plays Warframe.

 

I'm saying that nukes should be toned down JUST enough so that every player can actually PLAY. In fact, the idea that you have more of a right to nuke the map than your teammates have to simply play the game is fundamentally failing to respect them as equals.

Just gonna address these two then. You also ignore what I say and proceed on to your own rants. You do that to everyone who disagrees with you. Inb4 you say "I address them sentence for sentence and you accuse me of no chill/character". No, you are not addressing them, you are dismissing them sentence by sentence. Because people explain to you reasons why people do things fast or efficiently (e.g. lack time, have a job, rushing for baro etc.), or use nukes, you dismiss them, proceed to insist your idea is better 

I already offered you options on what you can do when nukers are present. You go kill the survivors. I.e. Heavy Gunners, Bombards, Artic Eximus, Noxes, Arbitration drones, those Orb Teenagers on the Vallis, Thumpers, and Nullifiers, etc.. You can attempt to run faster than Saryn or whatever other nuker is on the team, and kill the enemies before the nuker gets there. You are not only arguing for an option to play. BECAUSE YOU CAN PLAY EVEN IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME. You are definitely asking for more than that, something closer to that 25% kills per player  ideal.

You say tone down damage. Yeah sure.  Give me numbers then. By how much? Nerf according to the guy who has 175% efficiency and 5 forma and umbral mods installed, or the dude with 0 forma? Nerf according to the guy with max range build? Nerf according to what level enemies? Hydron? Hydron is meant to be MR leveling. Endgame missions like Arbitration? Arbitrations have ability-immune drones to hard counter. ESO? ESO requires high efficiency, and I know people even hope for good Saryns in public ESO games, so they can earn some good Focus numbers without going to recruiting, and if RNG didn't give that party a Saryn, I am not surprised at all when I see host migration screen after  Zone 2. Or nerf according to Level 10-20 enemies because new player experience - and turn Saryn in the Ember's cousin (who ironically still is great at killing level 10-20 enemies and just got gutted for high level potential)

 

And since you describe your point as being that players should not be able to idle. Ok, using high range, decent power strength Tesla with Vauban is also great for low-level defense mission nuking. Drop a bunch of electric balls everywhere. My team mates also chose to semi-idle cos they rarely see an effective Vauban, and they probably thought this Vauban is mad, and also lightning flying over everywhere looked like some party and was kinda funny and people were making jokes about it in the chat. 

And to anyone who suggests the quick "give abilities Line of Sight limitation" fix. Yeah good luck when the enemies glitch out and spawn behind a locked door or wall and your  mission progress gets stuck as nobody can eliminate the glitched enemy.

Edited by Xepthrichros
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Any word on when we'll be getting our dual color emissives back? 🙂

All my frames are using dull placeholder colors that don't match their ability or weapon colors since only the primary is visible.

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4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Just gonna address these two then. You also ignore what I say and proceed on to your own rants.

Counter-arguing is not ranting.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

You do that to everyone who disagrees with you. Inb4 you say "I address them sentence for sentence and you accuse me of no chill/character". No, you are not addressing them, you are dismissing them sentence by sentence.

Dismissing invalid arguments is par for the course in any reasonable debate. Bring valid arguments, and you will get counter-arguments instead of dismissals.

But you actually have to bring valid arguments first.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

 Because people explain to you reasons why people do things fast or efficiently (e.g. lack time, have a job, rushing for baro etc.),

Guess what? They're not special. We've been over this before.

I also have a job and limited play time. I am also affected by time-limited deadlines. But if I want to rush to that extreme, I have the decency to either handle it on my own or gather a group of like-minded people working toward a common goal.

Why is your time worth more than my time?

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

or use nukes, you dismiss them, proceed to insist your idea is better

Dismissing weak excuses for hurting other players' game experiences is definitely better than acquiescing to them.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I already offered you options on what you can do when nukers are present. You go kill the survivors. I.e. Heavy Gunners, Bombards, Artic Eximus, Noxes, Arbitration drones, those Orb Teenagers on the Vallis, Thumpers, and Nullifiers, etc.. You can attempt to run faster than Saryn or whatever other nuker is on the team, and kill the enemies before the nuker gets there. You are not only arguing for an option to play. BECAUSE YOU CAN PLAY EVEN IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME. You are definitely asking for more than that, something closer to that 25% kills per player  ideal.

I saw your suggestions, and all they show is that you're not willing to engage in goodwill discussion on the point. Your "suggestion" requires sticking your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem.

You're reduced to suggesting that the handful of enemies not nuked instantly is enough to keep 3 players occupied. Spoiler alert: they're not.

If there weren't a problem, people would not be complaining about it. And once again, you're reduced to a lame strawman aimed at exaggerating the standard for participation into something unreasonable.

Getting to fight a Nox or Heavy Gunner every wave or so after the first 5 (remember, 3 other teammates to account for) hardly qualifies as "participating."

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

You say tone down damage. Yeah sure.  Give me numbers then. By how much? Nerf according to the guy who has 175% efficiency and 5 forma and umbral mods installed, or the dude with 0 forma? Nerf according to the guy with max range build?

If you paid any attention at all, you'd know that nerfing DPS/damage output is not quite the same as nerfing damage numbers.

My proposed nerfs would target energy economy and Corrupted mods across every Frame in the game, not JUST DPS frames. This would make it so that spammable high-efficiency nuke builds would not inflict enough damage to map wipe (reduced strength, efficiency, range, etc. depending on build) and high-damage nuke builds would require teammate support to sustain.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Nerf according to what level enemies? Hydron? Hydron is meant to be MR leveling.

Hydron would be a frame of reference for range limits, as a good example of an overly cramped map exacerbating these issues.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Endgame missions like Arbitration? Arbitrations have ability-immune drones to hard counter.

Been over this already. It's not an issue in Arbitrations precisely because of those drones.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

ESO? ESO requires high efficiency, and I know people even hope for good Saryns in public ESO games, so they can earn some good Focus numbers without going to recruiting, and if RNG didn't give that party a Saryn, I am not surprised at all when I see host migration screen after  Zone 2.

Been over this already, too. Stop ranting and read, and you won't get me dismissing bad points other have already raised.

Efficiency in ESO is not a concern. If nuker DPS (and thus kill rate) is reduced, it would be very easy for DE to slow efficiency drain in ESO to compensate.

As I said before, this is not rocket science.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Or nerf according to Level 10-20 enemies because new player experience - and turn Saryn in the Ember's cousin (who ironically still is great at killing level 10-20 enemies and just got gutted for high level potential)

Yet again, I've been over this already. Can you please stop wasting my time with repeated points and try bringing something new to the table?

Ember's nerf was a bad nerf. I have openly acknowledged this every time it has come up, and even pointed out that it utterly failed to fix the problem myself. So no, I would not nerf any Frame based on low level ranges. Instead, I would look for ways to keep too many vets from mixing in with newbies.

Perhaps adjusting rewards distributions so that vets have less of a reason to bull-rush low level content.

Definitely adjusting solo options for spawn rate so that vets can run low level stuff solo without potentially missing spawns/loot.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

And since you describe your point as being that players should not be able to idle. Ok, using high range, decent power strength Tesla with Vauban is also great for low-level defense mission nuking. Drop a bunch of electric balls everywhere. My team mates also chose to semi-idle cos they rarely see an effective Vauban, and they probably thought this Vauban is mad, and also lightning flying over everywhere looked like some party and was kinda funny and people were making jokes about it in the chat. 

This is completely irrelevant. Players idling by choice is different from players forced into idling by a complete deconstruction of the gameplay experience.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

And to anyone who suggests the quick "give abilities Line of Sight limitation" fix. Yeah good luck when the enemies glitch out and spawn behind a locked door or wall and your  mission progress gets stuck as nobody can eliminate the glitched enemy.

Yes, let's keep broken abilities instead of working to fix bad spawn logic./s

I've humored you this time and waded through your slew of disingenuous, fallacy-ridden arguments. I'm not going to waste my time on this drivel again; if you feel that any of your points has been "dismissed," it's because your logic is fatally flawed or otherwise not even an honest argument in the first place.

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please do something about gyromag systems as offering to vox solaris

this is incorrect way of doing things for this specific item!

think about it: i need to farm the item to allow me access to it ( a little duck "reason" why would someone want something that he/she has unlimited access to that item)

i dont even mind farming 20 of each toroid as an offering but doing so many profit taker missions to get 0 systems as a common drop?! you got to be kidding....

suggestion: replace this item for offering to progress to next rank or make it available to purchase from somewhere else but not the same npc (lil duck)

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Still no fix for:

Profit-Taker fight being so bugged it's nearly unplayable. I've had so many bugs in this fight that I don't experience in other missions. Bugs like the archgun refusing to equip/unequip, gun switching not working properly, secondary not working while in bleedout, using a revive not giving sentinel regen again, so it just dies instantly and is gone for good (this one does happen in other missions and it's bloody infuriating!), archwing/k-drive refusing to deploy (gives an error message, something like "unable to deploy vehicle"), forcing me to run back to Fortuna on foot (also infuriating), loot from profit-taker doesn't have waypoint markers or icons of any kind, so it's impossible to tell where they are, transference not working, or just lagging so bad that it effectively doesn't work most of the time, damage to profit-taker not applying correctly (for instance, the matching damage type doesn't do anything while that icon is up, but once it switches, then it works, and the new one doesn't work), switching damage types by hitting it with your amp doesn't work a lot of the time, forcing you to keep shooting it until it finally does, and then sometimes it just switches twice. I could go on, but these are the main ones I could think of just off the top of my head. This battle is so messy and unfun, and it makes it worse that this seems to be the only way to get the bloodshed sigil (at a pathetic 1%, mind you), despite us being told that it would be given to us during a future operation (another lie that makes us lose faith in DE). The exploiter orb fight was so well done that it really makes me wish I could farm THAT for the sigil instead, because this one is just badly executed, and has been all but forgotten by DE. Please, give this fight a much needed revisit and fix it so we can actually enjoy playing it.

 

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me, using orange for my energy on all warframes especially nidus, nekros, trinity, and nova

oh wow now i have no idea what's going on :D

good change but just doesn't work for me

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12 hours ago, 000l000 said:

LoS only on such frames would balance such powers but let be honest a second, getting rid of spin-2-win and sprinting Ignis/Amprex/Staticor would make non static coop way better too.

LOS might be helpful, but I think the real problem lies in power strength and energy efficiency.

With regard to spin-to-win, that definitely needs to be reeled in. At the very least, make it require channeling so it can't be spammed.

I kind of agree that Ignis and Amprex can be a bit problematic due to the ease of which you can "spray and soak" enemies. The question is, what's the solution? Only thing I can think of with the Ignis is to maybe make it so you can't fire it while running forward without risking self-damage...

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BUG: Amalgan Organ Shatter 60% charge attack speed not working with THROWABLE MELEE 

Tested in Glaive Prime, Orvius and Kestrel. 

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