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Plains of Eidolon Remaster: Hotfix 24.8.1

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Still waiting for something that's actually fun  to play 😑

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16 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

- Vauban and Wukong being generally boring and almost completely out-classed by meta DPS Frames such as Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox, etc.

- Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox and Mag still being non-coop friendly by being able to completely dominate / nuke small defense maps with ridiculous ease. Being able to grab 200+ kills by Wave 5 on Hydron mostly with abilities while the rest of the squad gets 50 or less kills each is NOT balanced. We want to play and participate, not be bored to tears because someone decided to delete most of the enemies for us with an OP ability.

 

While Vauban and Wukong (especially Wukong) do need a revamp on some of their abilities (don't strip Vauban of his CC though!) as you said in the next part, the main problem doesn't lie with them... it's the nuke frames.

Frames that nuke entire rooms and more are the ones that me and my friends find boring. If CC is removed from the game and everything became a nuke-fest this game will become incredibly #*!%ing dull to play. Playing frames like Saryn are already, incredibly, boring as all hell. Effective? Very... too much so in fact. Her power-creep is ridiculous. It's funny... they nerf her to stop her from room clearing, but instead make her a map clearer...lol.

Something needs to be done about the room nukers. CC needs to be revived, not stripped from the game. However, I also don't want room nukers to be stripped either. They just need to be made team friendly, because right now whenever me and my friends see one when joining a pug? We abort. We're also not alone in that regard. (Same goes for people who whip-spin-2-win)

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33 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

While Vauban and Wukong (especially Wukong) do need a revamp on some of their abilities (don't strip Vauban of his CC though!) as you said in the next part, the main problem doesn't lie with them... it's the nuke frames.

Frames that nuke entire rooms and more are the ones that me and my friends find boring. If CC is removed from the game and everything became a nuke-fest this game will become incredibly #*!%ing dull to play. Playing frames like Saryn are already, incredibly, boring as all hell. Effective? Very... too much so in fact. Her power-creep is ridiculous. It's funny... they nerf her to stop her from room clearing, but instead make her a map clearer...lol.

Something needs to be done about the room nukers. CC needs to be revived, not stripped from the game. However, I also don't want room nukers to be stripped either. They just need to be made team friendly, because right now whenever me and my friends see one when joining a pug? We abort. We're also not alone in that regard. (Same goes for people who whip-spin-2-win)

Unlike you ,we really enjoy room clearing because we want to grind as fast and efficienty as possible in a grind based game 
And honestly I'd much rather y'all keep leaving than ruining the game experience for us people who prefer to use dps frames as they were meant to be used.

 

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I'm still waiting to see if DE fixes Venari to allow players to forma in Precept polarities (currently, we can't, since Venari is an 'Exalted Pet')

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31 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

Unlike you ,we really enjoy room clearing because we want to grind as fast and efficienty as possible in a grind based game 
And honestly I'd much rather y'all keep leaving than ruining the game experience for us people who prefer to use dps frames as they were meant to be used.

 

Yup, it seems some people do not understand that different frames have different uses, and they want everything to be about the same

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

 

IMO it would make more sense for a DPS to, y'know, need actual cooperative support in order to achieve map-nuking status. This is a conflated argument that I see all too often: most of the players complaining aren't actually concerned about kills, they are concerned about engagement and participation. Let them contribute meaningfully to the DPS wiping the map and they will see it as a team accomplishment rather than being annoyed that they are twiddling their thumbs because someone who clearly has enough power to solo the mission isn't playing solo because they would rather use teammates to boost spawns.

 

You CAN contribute meaningfully to a DPS frames effort. Trinity for energy. Rhino for ability strength buff.

Real talk, people who call for nerfs really just want everything they dislike about the game removed until its just them and their favorite playstyle remaining. All veiled behind this altruistic veneer of "good for the game"

Edited by Xepthrichros
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Great job!

 

One problem we still have is the auto blocking. It causes essentially a stun lock and can also force an aim glide.

I am sure the latter can just be changed/turned off. Not sure how to fix the other one.

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14 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

You CAN contribute meaningfully to a DPS frames effort. Trinity for energy. Rhino for ability strength buff.

Real talk, people who call for nerfs really just want everything they dislike about the game removed until its just them and their favorite playstyle remaining. All veiled behind this altruistic veneer of "good for the game"

People should understand if they don't like playing with a certain frame,they should leave the mission,not everything was meant to be handed on a silver platter,you want to have more interactive gameplay ,join a squad that is aligned with your views,that's why recruit chat exists.

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well... i can use both directx 10 and directx 11.. but is really really f*cking lagged like.... 5fps...

i'm from venezuela. so. upgrading is a bit to hard for my pocket.... 

i have a VIT M2420 LAPTOP

Intel-Core-i3-2310M 2.1Ghz Dual Core Processor.

Intel HD Graphics 3000 !.6gb video memory.

and 4gb DDR3 ram.... 

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19 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

- Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox and Mag still being non-coop friendly by being able to completely dominate / nuke small defense maps with ridiculous ease. Being able to grab 200+ kills by Wave 5 on Hydron mostly with abilities while the rest of the squad gets 50 or less kills each is NOT balanced. We want to play and participate, not be bored to tears because someone decided to delete most of the enemies for us with an OP ability.

What are you talking about? this is not meant to be balanced.
Saryn can not do stealth missions the same way Ivara does, or tank like Rhino. They are not meant to be balanced. You take the frame thats good for the task and not based on how they look disregarding their abilities.

Think you are confusing Warframe with League of Legends.

 

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5 hours ago, sleepychewbacca said:

As a solo player... this would be annoying when I want to be as efficient as possible. I like my Nuke Saryn for soloing ESO or Arbitrations. Heck efficiency is the main reason how I go about long grinds or farms. I would say the opposite, but that's just me. 

I do feel for players who get the feeling of being left out with nothing to do in that mission. Leaving a squad can only do so much amirite? 

But oh well, whatever happens happens. 

It's too bad efficiency is set in stone and can't be adjusted for the maximum kill rate, amirite?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Xepthrichros said:

You CAN contribute meaningfully to a DPS frames effort. Trinity for energy. Rhino for ability strength buff.

But not really, because they can nuke just as effectively with or without you. What I was saying is that such support should be NEEDED to achieve such and excessive kill rate.

Quote

Real talk, people who call for nerfs really just want everything they dislike about the game removed until its just them and their favorite playstyle remaining. All veiled behind this altruistic veneer of "good for the game"

Real talk, people who argue against nerfs like this only ever seem to make bad faith arguments reliant on character assassination and slippery slopes instead of addressing any material points.

Yes, how DARE we expect that in a 4 player multiplayer game all 4 players are able to participate. That's crazy talk. 3 players leeching off 1 other is clearly preferable and the superior gameplay experience.

Edited by DiabolusUrsus
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14 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

But not really, because they can nuke just as effectively with or without you. What I was saying is that such support should be NEEDED to achieve such and excessive kill rate.

Real talk, people who argue against nerfs like this only ever seem to make bad faith arguments reliant on character assassination and slippery slopes instead of addressing any material points.

Yes, how DARE we expect that in a 4 player multiplayer game all 4 players are able to participate. That's crazy talk. 3 players leeching off 1 other is clearly preferable and the superior gameplay experience.

There are always better players, more experience, better mods there will always be a deciding factor, you can drag people down to your level but its own temporarily, like it or not each player falls into their own skill bracket and there will always be someone better, a mode that cripples your abilities due to lackluster effort of another only ruins the experience for both parties, in the end preperation is the key and fact of the matter is Arbs as it is now or much of the content in warframe is heavily favored to the casual audience.  We get told time and time again how DE wants to make the old players happy and give something to the Vets of the game, and time and time again we see those gifts as trogon horses, they might give something back but they always make slight adjustments to appease the casual crowd, this only further draws a line in the sand that becomes more and more in focus each time they say "For the Vets, or "fans".

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Just now, Knight_Ex said:

There are always better players, more experience, better mods there will always be a deciding factor, you can drag people down to your level but its own temporarily, like it or not each player falls into their own skill bracket and there will always be someone better,

Please explain how "skill" is involved in 1 player tapping 1 or 4 repeatedly.

Just now, Knight_Ex said:

a mode that cripples your abilities due to lackluster effort of another only ruins the experience for both parties,

Yes, let's continue to screw over 1 side instead of balancing the game a little and screwing over neither.

Just now, Knight_Ex said:

in the end preperation is the key and fact of the matter is Arbs as it is now or much of the content in warframe is heavily favored to the casual audience.  We get told time and time again how DE wants to make the old players happy and give something to the Vets of the game, and time and time again we see those gifts as trogon horses, they might give something back but they always make slight adjustments to appease the casual crowd, this only further draws a line in the sand that becomes more and more in focus each time they say "For the Vets, or "fans".

This discussion is not limited to Arbitrations; it is a game-wide issue. In fact, it has less of an impact in Arbitrations because the drones stop said players from actually nuking the map. When have you seen anyone complaining about some Saryn forcing them into idling during an Arbitration? It simply doesn't happen.

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For the most part my grievances are with how Arbs and what could be referred to as end game content is handled, as Arbs is the hot topic right now.

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13 hours ago, _Akasha said:

I agree with 90% of this post save maybe the warframe parts. What you seem to be asking for is a stale warframe economy. There need to be warframes that excel at dps, and ones that do none yet excel in many many other aspects. Bringing every warframe to the same level really creates more problems than it solves. As for the squad complaints, i get that you don't like playing in a squad and not seeing a enemy for the duration of the mission, but most of those players I would imagine, are solo players like my self who play alone for 99% of their 5k hours in the last 6 years like I have. Their builds are specked for that. If a individual is bringing a say, Oberon; a great frame, into a run and expects to get any kills with a well modded Ember/Saryn/Equinox/Volt and many others that can wipe areas if they are built that way. Well i think you need to adjust your expectations. Every warframe in this game has a role they play or at the very least one they are best at, taking a frame in the opposite category and expecting them to perform on par is just un realistic. IE: Expecting Vauban to out kill a Saryn or a Wukong to out CC a Nyx.

You obviously put some respect and thought into this response, so I'll respond.

Quote

What you seem to be asking for is a stale warframe economy.

No. I'm asking for some parity and variety. I want to see certain damage abilities become alternatives to gun and melee combat, not almost complete replacements. In Hydron, I can stand in the middle of the map with a Saryn and do little but hit 1 and 4 and STILL grab at least 50% of all the kills in the mission. Same with Mesa - I can sit in the middle, stun with 2, tank with 3 as needed, and nuke with 4 by simply mashing the fire button and spinning around...and barely ever use a gun. I know because I've actually done that.

Yeah...REALLY exciting stuff.

Quote

If a individual is bringing a say, Oberon; a great frame, into a run and expects to get any kills with a well modded Ember/Saryn/Equinox/Volt and many others that can wipe areas if they are built that way.

Heh. You should see what I can do with my 250+ Power Strength Oberon Prime...If I squeeze in more range his 2 would be arguably broken. If I push myself, I can leave most players picking up scraps - but that's not how I usually roll.

Even with that build, Saryn, Mesa, etc. can still outkill me by a long shot..simply because of how broken they are. Now that should tell you something.

Quote

Expecting Vauban to out kill a Saryn or a Wukong to out CC a Nyx.

Not at all. In fact the LAST thing I want is for Vauban to turn into a map nuke, because 1. another map nuker is the last thing this game needs and 2. that doesn't suit his combat engineer theme.

To everyone that's said "play solo or use recruit". That's just sweeping the problem under the rug. I play Warframe because I want to kill stuff in different ways with other people - not to have someone else do it for me...and that's what Spores, Maim, Overload, and Peacemaker (to name the main outliers) are capable of doing.

Te everyone that's pretty much said "leave my 'Frame alone"...bravo, you just revealed how selfish the motivations and intentions behind your counter arguments really are.

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10 minutes ago, Knight_Ex said:

For the most part my grievances are with how Arbs and what could be referred to as end game content is handled, as Arbs is the hot topic right now.

That's fine, but then maybe don't shoehorn it into a mostly-unrelated topic of discussion.

I agree that Arbitrations need a lot more work and different handling. But let's not pretend that map-nuking is skillful or that it can't be reined in a bit without destroying the usefulness of DPS casters.

I don't really care about kill counts or anything like that. I just think that 1 player should not be able to block 3 others from participating. It's a multiplayer session; multiple players should actually be playing.

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41 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Real talk, people who argue against nerfs like this only ever seem to make bad faith arguments reliant on character assassination and slippery slopes instead of addressing any material points.

Yes, how DARE we expect that in a 4 player multiplayer game all 4 players are able to participate. That's crazy talk. 

PREACH!

42 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

3 players leeching off 1 other is clearly preferable and the superior gameplay experience.

That's the other thing. Allowing certain 'Frames to outright nuke maps with minimal effort is arguably encouraging lazy and entitled behavior for all concerned. Why bother participating if someone can do it for you with a few clicks?

The other day I left a Hydron mission because a Saryn was grabbing something like 90% of all the kills and being a jerk about it...while everyone else heard nothing but Miasma and Spores going off. People complained, asking the player to tone it down. The Saryn responded with "Oh, sorry for leveling your gear for you".

No, you're not doing us a favor. You only want to believe that so you can feel better about yourself and justify your actions.

One time I had an Equinox accuse me of stealing their kills while playing as Oberon. And they still killed more than me and for far less effort.

Really? YOUR  kills?

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-04-26 at 11:38 AM, MirageKnight said:

Improvements and fixes are always (and should be) appreciated when they arrive. That being said, the following is a reminder that there are still no fixes / solutions for the following bugs and issues that have been observed:

- Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Equinox and Mag still being non-coop friendly by being able to completely dominate / nuke small defense maps with ridiculous ease. Being able to grab 200+ kills by Wave 5 on Hydron mostly with abilities while the rest of the squad gets 50 or less kills each is NOT balanced. We want to play and participate, not be bored to tears because someone decided to delete most of the enemies for us with an OP ability.

 

While I'm a bit late to this party, I'm noticing a glaring issue here.

You would prefer to alter how someone else is able to play so that it works for you, and this "we"? People are able to grab those 200+ kills by how they mod. Just like people can choose to play in a game-mode that they would like to have control over. It's also amusing that you cite Hydron that this is a problem on, the same node people use for ranking up items quickly

Unfortunately, stepping on some one else's toes does not rectify this situation.

 

...You speak of wanting balance? I think Rivens and overused meta weapons would like to have a word with you. Speaking of that, how about when I want to participate but weapons like Atterax are being used to limit my ability to participate?

 

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Edited by Lahared

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33 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That's fine, but then maybe don't shoehorn it into a mostly-unrelated topic of discussion.

I agree that Arbitrations need a lot more work and different handling. But let's not pretend that map-nuking is skillful or that it can't be reined in a bit without destroying the usefulness of DPS casters.

I don't really care about kill counts or anything like that. I just think that 1 player should not be able to block 3 others from participating. It's a multiplayer session; multiple players should actually be playing.

I can understand your arguement, I've had situations where I've wanted to kill things and been denied because of things like a Saryn or an Equinox nuking entire rooms before I get chance to fire a shot.  It's not uncommon to see that happen, and I won't pretend like it isn't a little bit annoying at times.  

The thing is, Warframe is a power fantasy game, it puts abilities in your hand that can decimate entire battalions of enemies at the touch of a button.  How each person enacts their power fantasy depends on their preferences and personality.  Some enjoy being able to spread a virus across everything in the room and then melting them in to goo, some like to charge around with a flamethrower burning everything to a crisp, some even like spinning around in circles endlessly at the speed of a supercar while flailing a whip around to mangle their opponents.  To each their own.  Would you deny someone their fun because it isn't fun for you?  I don't like the sports car my dad owns, but I'm not about to go ripping the tyres off it because I don't like it.  He spent time and effort earning the money to purchase that car, so I have no right to determine if he should have bought it in the first place, or what he does with it.  Warframe is the same.  People take time and effort perfecting their builds, getting mods, applying forma, constantly levelling up, tweaking setups and changing loadouts to make something that wields godlike power, and now you're saying that because you don't get to kill anything in a mission featuring one of those powers, everyone should suffer nerfs to their favourite frames.

I do get where you're coming from, but requesting something as serious as what you're suggesting is being a little bit too selfish.

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48 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

PREACH!

That's the other thing. Allowing certain 'Frames to outright nuke maps with minimal effort is arguably encouraging lazy and entitled behavior for all concerned. Why bother participating if someone can do it for you with a few clicks?

The other day I left a Hydron mission because a Saryn was grabbing something like 90% of all the kills and being a jerk about it...while everyone else heard nothing but Miasma and Spores going off. People complained, asking the player to tone it down. The Saryn responded with "Oh, sorry for leveling your gear for you".

No, you're not doing us a favor. You only want to believe that so you can feel better about yourself and justify your actions.

One time I had an Equinox accuse me of stealing their kills while playing as Oberon. And they still killed more than me and for far less effort.

Really? YOUR  kills?

You do know there's a solo mode right?

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2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

I can understand your arguement, I've had situations where I've wanted to kill things and been denied because of things like a Saryn or an Equinox nuking entire rooms before I get chance to fire a shot.  It's not uncommon to see that happen, and I won't pretend like it isn't a little bit annoying at times.  

The thing is, Warframe is a power fantasy game, it puts abilities in your hand that can decimate entire battalions of enemies at the touch of a button. 

Cut the crap.

Magicka is a power fantasy game. Everyone can participate.

Halo is a power fantasy game. Everyone can participate.

Destiny is a power fantasy game. Everyone can participate.

The idea that "power fantasy" equates to "completely imbalanced" is pure BS.

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Would you deny someone their fun because it isn't fun for you?

If someone's idea of fun is killing absolutely everything, they can play solo. If you don't need teammates, YOU DON'T NEED TEAMMATES.

And why are you trying to distract from the fact that the issue is 1 player ruining the fun of 3 others?

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

I don't like the sports car my dad owns, but I'm not about to go ripping the tyres off it because I don't like it.  He spent time and effort earning the money to purchase that car, so I have no right to determine if he should have bought it in the first place, or what he does with it.  Warframe is the same. 

Bollocks. This is entirely an apples and oranges analogy. Your dad owns his car, and his car doesn't prevent other people from driving on the road.

You don't own anything associated with your Warframe account, and nuking the map absolutely does stop players from playing.

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

People take time and effort perfecting their builds, getting mods, applying forma, constantly levelling up, tweaking setups and changing loadouts to make something that wields godlike power, and now you're saying that because you don't get to kill anything in a mission featuring one of those powers, everyone should suffer nerfs to their favourite frames.

That is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that in a 4-player cooperative game, ALL 4 PLAYERS SHOULD GET TO COOPERATE, not 1 player finishing the mission while 3 others watch.

Watching other people play is what streaming platforms like Twitch are for.

And why are you pretending like nukers are the only ones who put time, effort, and Forma into their builds?

2 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

I do get where you're coming from, but requesting something as serious as what you're suggesting is being a little bit too selfish.

No you don't. You're making the same bad faith arguments rooted in fallacy as everyone before you.

It boggles the mind that you can somehow pull off the rationalizing logical contortions necessary to cast players who simply want to actually play as the selfish ones.

If a nuker can solo the mission to the point that nobody else can participate, why do they need a teammate?

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8 minutes ago, SecSicario said:

You do know there's a solo mode right?

Yes, and we're wondering why you don't use it when you clearly don't need your teammates to do anything.

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8 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

-snip-

As an addition to what I said, here's something to think about.

Once upon a time, people kept complaining about Ember's World On Fire nuking through missions and denying other players the opportunity to participate.  This went on for a long time, until eventually DE nerfed World On Fire.  Nowadays,how many Embers do you meet in public matchmaking?  Maybe 1 or 2 a week at best?  That's because nowadays, Ember is utterly useless, because her nerf dropped her below the bar that other frames have set.  You can't take Ember in to an Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, Arbitration or high level sortie mission because she'll offer practically nothing to the team's efficiency and she's so paper thin that she'll likely be dead before she's even managed to build her World On Fire to 100%.

The progressive power creep this game has had over recent years has left a lot of frames on the shelf, and what would be better than crying for nerfs to vastly used warframes now that basically set the bar for how powerful a warframe should be, you instead want them to be nerfed to bring them down to the levels of frames nobody uses nowadays.  If your frame is not performing to the level you see others doing, it isn't because that players frame is too powerful, it's because your frame needs to be buffed.  

It was mentioned in the last devstream that DE acknowledges that the power creep has caused some frames to be impractical or unusable in the current state of things.  Vaubhan is getting another rework because of this, Ember also needs (yet another) rework, and so do a few others.  Once these are done (if they're done), it'll resolve some of the problem, because older frames will be dragged up to modern standards and be able to participate in high level missions again without having to worry about Saryns or Equinoxes murdering everything in the blink of an eye, because you'll also be able to do it, and then we can all share in the glory.

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