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Jiminez_Burial

Does Warframe have an 'end of life' plan?

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I've recently watched this video by Accursed Farms talking about games as a service.  As a result I have one simple question: does DE have a plan to make Warframe playable offline once it is no longer profitable/possible to support?  Given that DE have talked about providing an offline option for Nintendo Switch since it's a mobile platform, have they said anything about allowing people to play the game if/when the servers are shut down?

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" DE have talked about providing an offline option for Nintendo Switch", can you link it? 

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End of life plans are generally contingency based, and in most cases community driven. See Sacred and their privately hosted servers. 

Then again despite everything Warframe isn't even close to that point so I'd say we're worrying over nothing. 

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Since Warframe already uses P2P system it wouldn't take that much effort to convert the game to full player hosting instead of being server based (by DE anyway). I guess that's a lemonade out of these server lemons. 🤔

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Ross Scott (Accursed Farms) is absolutely amazing and I completely agree with him. I honestly feel that it should be illegal to make a game unplayable if money exchanges hands for it. No, I'm serious. If a good is purchased for money, you shouldn't be allowed to turn around and take it away later. 

Imagine if you could only see The Avengers for the next year or so, and then every copy and download of the game ceases to work. And the movie companies heavily encrypt it and take steps to ensure no one can experience it again. Absolutely mental.

I sincerely would like to think that DE would make Warframe playable in perpetuity even after they shut it down, but I feel like this is the type of thing a company will only do if they are forced to do so. I feel like DE would probably just as soon toss it aside in another 5 years or so and let the game die forever. Please prove me wrong, DE.

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4 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

Ross Scott (Accursed Farms) is absolutely amazing and I completely agree with him. I honestly feel that it should be illegal to make a game unplayable if money exchanges hands for it. No, I'm serious. If a good is purchased for money, you shouldn't be allowed to turn around and take it away later. 

Imagine if you could only see The Avengers for the next year or so, and then every copy and download of the game ceases to work. And the movie companies heavily encrypt it and take steps to ensure no one can experience it again. Absolutely mental.

I sincerely would like to think that DE would make Warframe playable in perpetuity even after they shut it down, but I feel like this is the type of thing a company will only do if they are forced to do so. I feel like DE would probably just as soon toss it aside in another 5 years or so and let the game die forever. Please prove me wrong, DE.

I understand that position, but oddly enough the government usually doesn't agree unless its messing with their own stuff. On your topic of Avengers not working after a while, Disney actually had a technology to cause DVD's recorded to degrade with each watch and last I heard had it adapted to Blu-Rays. They called it Ez-D, but I think it was part of Flexplay technology. Essentially, the disc was made with a resin that was supposed to rip its layers apart after 48 hours from a first usage with a shelf life of a few years, but most would separate slightly after a wee bit on the shelves making them unreadable in most drives usually crashing after a bit or locking up. I don't like the idea of planned obsolescence as it stands in the path of advancement to me, but it is what is until the rules are crafted against such abuses.

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1 hour ago, HellVOps said:

" DE have talked about providing an offline option for Nintendo Switch", can you link it? 

It was in one of their dev streams, maybe 5 or so ago.  They talked about what compromises they would have to make concerning what you kept from offline play.  Affinity was going to be kept (creds also I think) but mods and anything tradable wouldn't.  I can try to track down the stream/timestamp.

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1 hour ago, Autongnosis said:

End of life plans are generally contingency based, and in most cases community driven. See Sacred and their privately hosted servers. 

Then again despite everything Warframe isn't even close to that point so I'd say we're worrying over nothing. 

It's not so much that I'm worried, just interested if DE have already considered this (or that they've made those considerations public).  

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1 hour ago, zoffmode said:

Since Warframe already uses P2P system it wouldn't take that much effort to convert the game to full player hosting instead of being server based (by DE anyway). I guess that's a lemonade out of these server lemons. 🤔

But if any form of progression was to be kept from missions then the server authentication would have to be mimicked.

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I imagine this isn´t on DEs mind right now, as player counts and revenue seem to be rising consistently, but that doesn´t mean this topic should be ignored, far from it. The sooner we as a community get some reassurance or comment on future proofing the game post DE support, the more community goodwill will be thrown at DE, hopefully. Maybe talking about server shut down at this point could scare people away from the game, but I´d like to imagine most people realize that it is inevitable, be it 5 or 15 years from now. Would be very nice if we could get a big ruckus going on about the subject and get DE to notice our concerns, however distant they might seem at present.

Not that I´d like to see Warframe shut down, I enjoy the game immensely and have spent over a thousand hours and many euros playing it (and will hopefully spend thousands hours more), but this issue is a reality people must face sooner rather than later, both us players and the developers.

I really want this conversation Ross has brought up to turn into something big everywhere in the games industry.

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i think by the time it gets to that point, many of us will have discovered another game that we can enjoy as much as Warframe now, and we won't really care as much what happens to Warframe because we'll have other games. for all we know, DE might decide to make another game using Warframe profits that they've saved up over the years. they could relaunch one of their past projects, like The Amazing Eternals, or end up acquiring the rights to something else. nobody knows what the future holds.

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21 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

But if any form of progression was to be kept from missions then the server authentication would have to be mimicked.

Yeah. Obviously all account info and a bunch of other stuff is kept on servers. It would be on DE to provide documentation on how to make a community server or maybe even patch it to be local.

I've experienced so many dead games already and it's extremely disappointing every time. Finished watching the video and couldn't agree more.

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The thing is.. there no another game like Warframe or nearly closer.. i dont think it will closed in years, with the tec we got today they can upgrade the actual system from graphics  to mechanics soo... Long live to WF !!

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1 hour ago, Urlan said:

I understand that position, but oddly enough the government usually doesn't agree unless its messing with their own stuff. On your topic of Avengers not working after a while, Disney actually had a technology to cause DVD's recorded to degrade with each watch and last I heard had it adapted to Blu-Rays. They called it Ez-D, but I think it was part of Flexplay technology. Essentially, the disc was made with a resin that was supposed to rip its layers apart after 48 hours from a first usage with a shelf life of a few years, but most would separate slightly after a wee bit on the shelves making them unreadable in most drives usually crashing after a bit or locking up. I don't like the idea of planned obsolescence as it stands in the path of advancement to me, but it is what is until the rules are crafted against such abuses.

There's a difference between specific copies degrading and the movie in every single possible form (digital, physical, duplicates, etc.) vanishing up in smoke.

I'd definitely suggest checking out Ross Scott's video on the OP's post, because he really did a very thorough job addressing the topic of "planned obsolescence" and similar topics.

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I'm concerned with prime vaulted items if DE stops updating and does allow an offline way to play are vaulted items lost forever or do they throw all relics back in the mix to give us that chance because the economy will really suffer otherwise with no way to buy plat and items only increaseing in rarity its unsustainable 

 

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4 hours ago, Urlan said:

. On your topic of Avengers not working after a while, Disney actually had a technology to cause DVD's recorded to degrade with each watch and last I heard had it adapted to Blu-Rays. They called it Ez-D, but I think it was part of Flexplay technology. Essentially, the disc was made with a resin that was supposed to rip its layers apart after 48 hours from a first usage with a shelf life of a few years, but most would separate slightly after a wee bit on the shelves making them unreadable in most drives usually crashing after a bit or locking up. 

Yep, I remember this product - it was created during that period between DVD burners being created, but before Video Streaming sites.  When the watchword was Piracy, and every movie company was psychotic about it.

With the fracturing of streaming services like Hulu and Netflix, we might be going that way again.

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5 hours ago, Ryusuta said:

Ross Scott (Accursed Farms) is absolutely amazing and I completely agree with him. I honestly feel that it should be illegal to make a game unplayable if money exchanges hands for it. No, I'm serious. If a good is purchased for money, you shouldn't be allowed to turn around and take it away later. 

Imagine if you could only see The Avengers for the next year or so, and then every copy and download of the game ceases to work. And the movie companies heavily encrypt it and take steps to ensure no one can experience it again. Absolutely mental.

I sincerely would like to think that DE would make Warframe playable in perpetuity even after they shut it down, but I feel like this is the type of thing a company will only do if they are forced to do so. I feel like DE would probably just as soon toss it aside in another 5 years or so and let the game die forever. Please prove me wrong, DE.

Its in the EULA / TOS. Any money you spend on these games is at your own risk.

 

6. DURATION OF ONLINE SERVICES

The Software is an online game that must be played over the Internet through the Service as provided by Digital Extremes. You understand and agree that the Service is provided by Digital Extremes at its discretion and may be terminated or otherwise discontinued by DE at any time for any reason or no reason.

If they can suspend / ban your account for any reason they feel is in breach of their rules, they can terminate the service / shut the game down on a similar basis. 

 

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6 hours ago, Ryusuta said:

magine if you could only see The Avengers for the next year or so, and then every copy and download of the game ceases to work. And the movie companies heavily encrypt it and take steps to ensure no one can experience it again. Absolutely mental.

Of course this happens.  For example I bought a digital copy of a movie from some company, and they went out of business.  And I no longer have access to watch that movie.  In that case I don't particularly care since the only reason I bought it at the time was their price was less than the current cable 24hr rental price.

Or simply look at the huge wasteland of Google products they brought to market and shuttered a few years later.

Old cellular and some satellite phone services are another example - people paid both monthly fees AND purchased the hardware - then the company or service ceases and thats that.

As a kid, my parents bought lifetime ski passes to a local ski area. for 8 years we used them, then the 9th year, the ski area went out of business.  They didn't expect that "lifetime" was the life of the business rather than the customers life.

I never think of online items as "owned" but rather "accessible" regardless of what products they are -then I'm not disappointed when they cease to exist.

 

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They are reaching new peaks year after year, as long as players are interested and the game keeps growing, there is no real reason to shut it down, think WoW, not Destiny. 

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46 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Its in the EULA / TOS. Any money you spend on these games is at your own risk.

You didn't watch the video. He addresses this argument at 48:13 (Transcribed here).

"So here are my rebuttals to every major counterargument or concern I can think of before they happen. Here we go. Let's start with the big one.
'Games as a service is legal because you agree to the terms stated in the End User License Agreement.'
Well, the simple answer is yes, those terms apply as long as they don't contradict anything the law says. If they say something that is not legal, then those documents mean nothing. Nothing. That's why I spent half the video focusing on the law and almost didn't care what those documents said. If the law says they're wrong, that's all there is to it. It's not even a debate. The End User License Agreements are irrelevant to this conversation. That's what that Lexmark Supreme Court case was showing. They simply don't determine the law."

And at 49:18.
"But let's crush this argument a little further. Maybe you think the law is wrong, and the customer assumed the risk of shutdown when they bought the game. Okay, well then, when was it supposed to shut down? I don't think there's been one case in the history of games as a service where the company told the customer when the game was gonna shut down upon release. That means the agreements are made in bad faith because the company is purposefully withholding information from the customer. Now personally, I think that's a weaker argument that doesn't get to the core issue, but it's still true. Game shutdowns are not a force of nature. They are entirely within the company's control. In order to defend the End User License Agreement, you would have to say that companies are entitled to sell you a product, break that product after the point of sale, not tell customers when that's going to happen even though it's in their control, and then prevent customers from repairing the product after it's broken. That is not good business. That is predatoryGood luck defending that."

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If warframe ever dies, I want to see a darksector 2, DE has gotten better at making games , and I think it would be worth it for DE to try to reacquire the rights to that title 

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9 hours ago, HellVOps said:

" DE have talked about providing an offline option for Nintendo Switch", can you link it? 

hmm, I think it's from one of skill up's video. The one that talked about switch's launch, I think DE did say something about trying to make it offline. But it's a long shot because Steve (or Rebecca) said that the game still need to update the player status like loots, exps, or stuffs like that. One of the reason that the 'always online' is a thing is to prevent cheating. Anyway here's the video

 

10 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

does DE have a plan to make Warframe playable offline once it is no longer profitable/possible to support?

On topic, first thing first, I don't think warframe is going to close anytime soon soo we are quite safe from this "fraud" that Ross (from the video you linked) talked about. That being said, that video is very interesting topic and I agree on the most parts, especially on the preservation and ownership aspect.

To answer your question, no, we don't know. The best thing we got about that matter is the video that I linked. There are at least an intent (not sure about attempt) to make warframe offline from DE's part. From experience of watching their streams and reading their tweets, I think if all goes downhill, they probably will let player have the offline version of Warframe if the services shuts down.

This completely my assumptions so there are no concrete facts here, but DE, or at least Steve looks like really loves Warframe. It's a product of his creativity and if all goes wrong, at the very least and if the community wants it, he would at least let the player have the offline version of warframe. Another point is that since warframe is peer to peer game, I think it's easier for the developers to make the offline version of warframe. So, although all of this are based on assumptions and not being backed up with any DE's official statement, I'm quite sure that Warframe will have the offline version if the service stops.

And hey, if I'm wrong about DE, we should voice this out!

 

 

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4 hours ago, Deltablood said:

You didn't watch the video. He addresses this argument at 48:13 (Transcribed here).
[snip]

Hey chief, just thought I’d chime in here, due to some really heavy misinformation I’m seeing from this content creator.

Every part of the transcript you’re citing is completely wrong. The Lexmark Int’l case was a case debating 35 U. S. C. §154, which implicitly deals with patents and was a case litigated over the rights to a printer toner cartridge design, which had nothing to do with video games as a service nor access to them (videogames).

Furthermore, Digital Extremes is a company based in and traded in Canada, which means this Supreme Court case cannot be used as neither precedent nor part of any sort of argument against them.

Further still, opinion has no basis in certain aspects of digital access law - the language in their End User License Agreement is to protect themselves from civil liability in the advent that a company has to file for bankruptcy and a bunch of brainlets (that content creator, et al.) attempt to sue them, making an already complicated process that can lead to a game shutdown much worse.

- Don’t believe every opinion (yes, opinion) you see on Youtube.

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8 hours ago, MythicPulse said:

Yep, I remember this product - it was created during that period between DVD burners being created, but before Video Streaming sites.  When the watchword was Piracy, and every movie company was psychotic about it.

With the fracturing of streaming services like Hulu and Netflix, we might be going that way again.

Very true, hopefully it won't go the way it looks.

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