Saryn needs a nerf, or a tweak, or something

[Femuru]

Tbh they should of just kept it when spores required line of sight to spread

[Andele3025]

6 minutes ago, SutomuDrgn said:

Tbh they should of just kept it when spores required line of sight to spread

They never required LOS, they just had reduced range from enemy death due to spore damage instead of not spreading at all.

[dodyouserious]

its a pve game 

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, dodyouserious said:

its a pve game 

that is no excuse to throw balance to the wind. its an online game where you play with other people.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

On 2019-04-27 at 5:08 PM, Zarista66 said:

So, to start with, I love Saryn. She's the queen of ESO, and is almost a required part of parties going far into Defense or Survival agaunst the Grineer. But, when she is *needed* for an entire faction in endgame, as well as half of another faction (Corrupted Grineer), there's something going wrong. While working on the Kuva Survival for Nightwave, I hit 7x more kills than any other member in my 4 man squad (in screenshot, guy DCed at the 20ish minute mark, so he's not visible).

Apologies for trash quality Screenshot, with Nightwave all over it, but this is not OK.

The other members were a Gara (w Rubico Prime) and a Trin (w Sybaris Prime), and they barely factor into the massive damage and killcount of a Saryn spamming 1, spreading with an Ignis and hitting 4 every couple seconds. 
And i'm not very good at the game.

The fact that this powerful of a frame continues to exist is simultaneously good and bad. I feel like this needs some form of adjustment. Don't kill her off, but I think something to nerf her mapwide, infinite scaling, Corrosive-proccing damage abilities is in order.

I did most damage in my run with a Gara as Nekros with an Atterax.  Could've done most damage with a heavy blade too most likely.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Pointless screenshots and DPS comparisons.  The fact that a Saryn can kill 4k enemies/hr doesn't mean that its remotely required to achieve success, nor does it mean she is OP.  And comparing her to frames that aren't dps frames is just silly.

I almost always out DPS saryn's on ESO  AND usually keep up with their kills as well - using Volt, Oberon, Equinox etc. Of course, in reality, either one of us could just AFK and let the other do all the work anyway - no cooperation needed.

in fact in most public matches I play, I out DPS and out kill saryns almost regardless of what the mission is.

Saryn is not the problem, the general game play loop, enemy scaling, rediculous number of OP weapons, and matchmaking is the problem.  The fact that they want to keep missions achievable for the solo player is a problem and so long as that is true, one person can ALWAYS carry the rest of the team.

 

 

[Buttaface]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 12:49 AM, (PS4)DARK_WIZARD999 said:

Im getting pretty tired of hearing people want to nurf things because they don't like them personally. If it was breaking the game, and make it impossible to play that's one thing. but she's just a horde killer in a horde killing game. 

I'm getting tired of hearing people defend a ridiculous OP situation in a game with outright falsehoods such as the above. IF you never see the mobs, then you -aren't- actually playing the horde game. Other BS seen in this thread and all the others, like "Saryn is only good at one thing," a whopper when it has 300 armor, a very strong self-heal AND Volt speed boost with an augment, an ult that clears low level maps instantly and one of the best melee and weapon damage boosts in the game... in addition to the spores. That ain't "one thing."

Most of WF is not ESO and Boss Fights but running low level missions over and over to crack relics, invasions, alerts/nightwave, lower bounties, etc. Those missions are full of newer players wondering if WF is going to retain them or if they will play any of 1000 other games that are better balanced in the character power department. Then they run into AOE room clear, of which Saryn is one of the top culprits. I can't count how many times I see jackass tryhards playing AOE clear in low missions with newer players in the team.

If someone is so inured of the gameplay that the only way they can stand to engage it is with a map clear keypress, then perhaps they are in the wrong game and the fun has left, but it's really mostly about "muhkillz" and giving weak players a sense that they are "the best" in a game when they aren't actually very good at all.

There are at least 20-30 skills in WF that need nerfing down in the offense department, spores, miasma, maim, discharge, and Peacemaker are at the top of that list. AOE in games should be target/range/dmg capped, ALWAYS LOS, NEVER just a radial button push without significant setup and tradeoffs. Weapons? Fine. At least the other players get to SEE the mobs, have a CHANCE to engage them, and aren't having to constantly run the outer edge of the map to get stuff they need.

Will wager my last sliver of exotic bitcoin or good boy points that if WF ever addressed the AOE cheeze problem it has in a thoughtful way with strong limits and tradeoffs on AOE that their player retention numbers would go up up up.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Buttaface

[Shelusine]

On 2019-04-28 at 2:08 AM, Zarista66 said:

The other members were a Gara (w Rubico Prime) and a Trin (w Sybaris Prime)

Sorry, I am unsure if you are trolling or not but like.... obviously ? Trinity is not good at dpsing and the Rubicon is one of the worse loadout option for normal mission. Ofc they wouldn't deal any damage.

Inversely my mag outdps 99% of the Saryns during Kuva farming.

[Chaemyerelis]

Fix the crappy enemy scaling first imo.

 

[MJ12]

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

I'm getting tired of hearing people defend a ridiculous OP situation in a game with outright falsehoods such as the above. IF you never see the mobs, then you -aren't- actually playing the horde game. Other BS seen in this thread and all the others, like "Saryn is only good at one thing," a whopper when it has 300 armor, a very strong self-heal AND Volt speed boost with an augment, an ult that clears low level maps instantly and one of the best melee and weapon damage boosts in the game... in addition to the spores. That ain't "one thing."

Most of WF is not ESO and Boss Fights but running low level missions over and over to crack relics, invasions, alerts/nightwave, lower bounties, etc. Those missions are full of newer players wondering if WF is going to retain them or if they will play any of 1000 other games that are better balanced in the character power department. Then they run into AOE room clear, of which Saryn is one of the top culprits. I can't count how many times I see jackass tryhards playing AOE clear in low missions with newer players in the team.

If someone is so inured of the gameplay that the only way they can stand to engage it is with a map clear keypress, then perhaps they are in the wrong game and the fun has left, but it's really mostly about "muhkillz" and giving weak players a sense that they are "the best" in a game when they aren't actually very good at all.

There are at least 20-30 skills in WF that need nerfing down in the offense department, spores, miasma, maim, discharge, and Peacemaker are at the top of that list. AOE in games should be target/range/dmg capped, ALWAYS LOS, NEVER just a radial button push without significant setup and tradeoffs. Weapons? Fine. At least the other players get to SEE the mobs, have a CHANCE to engage them, and aren't having to constantly run the outer edge of the map to get stuff they need.

Will wager my last sliver of exotic bitcoin or good boy points that if WF ever addressed the AOE cheeze problem it has in a thoughtful way with strong limits and tradeoffs on AOE that their player retention numbers would go up up up.

Saryn's only capable of 'map clear keypress' gameplay at levels where enemies last long enough for Spore to spread.

Otherwise, you're reliant on Miasma to clear, which is a relatively small area that can be avoided simply... by not being in the same room as Saryn. This is why people keep using Sanctuary Onslaught as a rationale for nerfing Saryn, because it's basically a hothouse that pretty much by design eliminates all of Saryn's weaknesses.

You could fix 90% of the complaints about "AFK gameplay" by having resource and mod pickups behave the same way as credits (so one player picking them up would pick them up for the entire team) and removing affinity share range (so that everyone shares affinity), without a single nerf to any power. Instantly.

Edited April 30, 2019 by MJ12

[Pizzarugi]

27 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

You could fix 90% of the complaints about "AFK gameplay" by having resource and mod pickups behave the same way as credits (so one player picking them up would pick them up for the entire team) and removing affinity share range (so that everyone shares affinity), without a single nerf to any power. Instantly.

How does this fix AFK gameplay? If only one person needs  to collect in order for the whole team to get the loot, or make affinity share range global, that only encourages leeching and AFK gameplay even more. Join the game, face a corner, weight the "W" key down and let the rest of the team hoover the loot you'll also get plus the affinity from kills happening hundreds of meters away from you.

[MJ12]

36 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

How does this fix AFK gameplay? If only one person needs  to collect in order for the whole team to get the loot, or make affinity share range global, that only encourages leeching and AFK gameplay even more. Join the game, face a corner, weight the "W" key down and let the rest of the team hoover the loot you'll also get plus the affinity from kills happening hundreds of meters away from you.

Because the scarequotes around "AFK gameplay" are because "AFK gameplay" is a reference to the common complaint about Saryn, that she stops other people from playing the game. If I meant leeching, I would have said leeching.

If you can just decide to go somewhere else to fight enemies instead of either having the choice to stay around the Saryn to get XP or drastically cut your resource and affinity gains from the mission, you're no longer stopped from playing the game. Saryn isn't actually good at clearing non-endless missions, so she's not an issue there. Allowing players in Survival/Interception misisons to wander more without cutting their XP/resource gain would reduce the problem Saryn creates of reducing other people's fun.

Maybe you'd also want to tweak the spawn algorithms and numbers slightly for something like this, but I think that the biggest problem with Saryn isn't actually 'enemy scaling' or 'Sanctuary Onslaught' or even her powers.

The biggest problem is that the game's affinity range mechanics force you to basically sniff each other's butts if you don't want to drastically reduce your ability to level, and the game's spawning mechanics make it so that the only missions that are worthwhile for XP gain are the ones that basically specifically advantage Saryn.

Edited April 30, 2019 by MJ12

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

Because the scarequotes around "AFK gameplay" are because "AFK gameplay" is a reference to the common complaint about Saryn, that she stops other people from playing the game. If I meant leeching, I would have said leeching.

If you can just decide to go somewhere else to fight enemies instead of either having the choice to stay around the Saryn to get XP or drastically cut your resource and affinity gains from the mission, you're no longer stopped from playing the game. Saryn isn't actually good at clearing non-endless missions, so she's not an issue there. Allowing players in Survival/Interception misisons to wander more without cutting their XP/resource gain would reduce the problem Saryn creates of reducing other people's fun.

Maybe you'd also want to tweak the spawn algorithms and numbers slightly for something like this, but I think that the biggest problem with Saryn isn't actually 'enemy scaling' or 'Sanctuary Onslaught' or even her powers.

The biggest problem is that the game's affinity range mechanics force you to basically sniff each other's butts if you don't want to drastically reduce your ability to level, and the game's spawning mechanics make it so that the only missions that are worthwhile for XP gain are the ones that basically specifically advantage Saryn.

First of all, this would only be good in missions like survival or excavation where the map is big enough for players to split up. This doesn't solve the problems in every other mission where she's a problem in such as non-endless missions like exterminate/sabotage or endless missions with tiny maps such as defense/interception/(E)SO.

The second problem is that what you said didn't address the issues I mentioned earlier. Your suggestion changes the "AFK/roomba gameplay" into full-blown leeching which is already bad enough. 😛

[MJ12]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

First of all, this would only be good in missions like survival or excavation where the map is big enough for players to split up. This doesn't solve the problems in every other mission where she's a problem in such as non-endless missions like exterminate/sabotage or endless missions with tiny maps such as defense/interception/(E)SO.

The second problem is that what you said didn't address the issues I mentioned earlier. Your suggestion changes the "AFK/roomba gameplay" into full-blown leeching which is already bad enough. 😛

Saryn is actually not overpowering in non-endless missions, and the main reason you'd take her to one is because Toxic Lash/Molt w/Augment are really good (and neither of them 'ruin fun' the same way Spore/Miasma are being argued to). Most interception maps are large enough to make it non-trivial to lock down with a single Saryn-certainly they're large enough and the spawns are spaced out enough that I've routinely outdamaged Saryns using other DPS frames. Defense is more of a problem but defense really needs to be rebuilt because it's slow, limiting, and boring.

And yes, Sanctuary Onslaught would still be a loot room that heavily favors Saryn. Sanctuary Onslaught isn't the whole of the game, and I'd prefer to make other missions give greater numbers of enemy spawns and better affinity rewards than I would nerf a Warframe simply because she dominates a small subset of content that's only good for one thing.

As to full-blown leeching? I don't think Warframe's anti-leecher systems have generally been good enough at preventing 'leechers' in content that they're actually worth the cost that has resulted in terms of making it so that players have to stick together to get worthwhile rewards. Something like the Sanctuary Onslaught portal system that takes you out of the mission if you don't do something that can't be easily automated every so often seems reasonably useful at reducing leeching without being super-inconvenient for other players, so maybe use that?

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

what about having a squad with 3 or 4 corrosive projections ? this would mean enemies have no armor really at any point in the mission so saryn won't be much of a "Requirement" for any missions just have a good weapon and it becomes easy as hell.

ran a 1hr kuva survival with clan last week with 4x CP and everything was dying without me or anyone else using saryn or any other meta frames.

[Caripillar]

Saryn is hands down my favourite frame so if that makes people discount everything below then it is what it is.

For me, what makes her so ridiculously good to play is how smooth she feels compared to many of her other frames. Her abilities compliment each other and are actually designed to work together which is something I haven't found with many of them. This is something I would like to see elsewhere where abilities are either standalone or you just rely solely on one particular one. It takes time to adjust and streamline a build (or just copy one off a streamer idk) but it is satisfying to see it pay off, especially on her.

Is it true her power creep is a little out of hand? Yes. Having her output numbers looked at wouldn't be a bad thing, but I just see a lot of threads or comments like this one that call for nerfs without going into specifics other than "she can kill the whole map just nerf the whole thing". Some people have pointed out range and los which is fair, but chances are those people have just modded for max range to increase kill efficiency and nerfing range won't do very much. If her spore growth and tick rate and miasma damage bonus were dialed back that might alleviate some of the damage output complaints people seem to have. That said she has been nerfed already, and people have and will continue to build around it if they know what they're doing.

High density missions are her very specific niche, and I think some of the issue stems from the fact that there are many many missions like that, ESO, endless, exterminate etc, and so it seems like she trivialises a lot of content. Would you take Saryn to a spy? An assassination? An eidolon or orb mother? Open world? She excels in none of those mission modes while other specific frames do, it happens that her niche is very broad compared to some others like Chroma or Ivara, leading to people seeing her a lot and the complaints rolling in. The fact that those other mission modes aren't exactly popular doesn't really help either. 

Is she required for mission types in her niche? Absolutely not. I've done plenty of runs of endless or ESO on my other frames without a hitch solo or otherwise, and even for survivals I prefer Nekros or even just to run a 3 Octavia meme with my friends just to listen to the ridiculous rave that gets created. She definitely speeds the kill rate up significantly, bit I haven't seen something where success was contingent on having a Saryn in the group.

About her leaving the others with not much else to do, I'm quite sure most reasonable people would be happy to tone it down if they were asked nicely by teammates. I prefer to close my groups to avoid pissing off people like those in here, and when I do go pub I generally don't see complaints. If there are people who are going to be an ass about it they're going to be an ass on whichever frame they play. -insert obligatory 'form a group or play solo' here-

At the end of the day, in terms of raw damage she could use some adjusting, but I don't think calling for blanket nerfs to her or any other frame is going to help anybody, especially if no suggestions or alternatives are offered.

[SECURATYYY]

I think saryn is perfect. I don't believe she needs a change. In the OP, the two other frames were Gara and Trin. Those aren't kill frames, and its not exactly fair to compare them to Saryn.

 

If anything, I think other frames need to be brought up to the level where Saryn is currently at. When I think of 'perfect' frames (which ofc is entirely opinion), Saryn is one of them at the top of my list. She is fantastic. The only real problem she has, is there isn't challenging content.

 

I feel the better solution is to bring everyone up, not nerf everyone down. Give us a level80+ survival(or something), and increase the overall difficulty of the game. Then we can see where all the frames are, and adjust the weaker ones accordingly. Nerfing a community favorite for being good isn't the correct response.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

2 hours ago, SECURATYYY said:

I think saryn is perfect. I don't believe she needs a change. In the OP, the two other frames were Gara and Trin. Those aren't kill frames, and its not exactly fair to compare them to Saryn.

It seems that you haven't encountered nuking Gara builds : she can make her 4th explode, with tremendous range, and at a faster rate than Saryn can spam her 4th. Against low level NPCs (i.e. 35 something) it's really efficient, to say the least.

[SECURATYYY]

On 2019-05-05 at 6:38 PM, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

It seems that you haven't encountered nuking Gara builds : she can make her 4th explode, with tremendous range, and at a faster rate than Saryn can spam her 4th. Against low level NPCs (i.e. 35 something) it's really efficient, to say the least.

I've seen them often. Then again almost anything can nuke level 35's. I used inaros sandstorm to clear hydron, but that doesn't make it good.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Let me get this straight: you want to nerf a nuke for being.....a nuke?