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AW Weapons other than Larkspur Underpowered in Atmosphere

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Other than Aimbot Larkspur, AW weapons really don't justify their immense game expense in atmosphere, especially in light of the tradeoffs. The ones I've tried rivened are decent enough, but not close to being sidegrades to the better secondaries or especially primaries. Either the AW mods need dual functions depending on which mode one is in or primed atmosphere only AW mods could be introduced as arbitration or other rewards. Maybe they have planned this, but as it stands there's not much reason to do all the work of having them.

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You apparently either havent played with them all or build them properly.

Fluctus has high Slash/Elemental damage and infinite PunchThrough, it will go through the whole stage if you aim right and easily kills large groups of mobs, specially if they are in tight corridors.

The Hitscan ones can deal massive damage if you have Sabot Rounds (Mod) on them.

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idunno. Larkspur is kind garbage outside of Armor Stripping and that's not something rare for Weapons.
if you're saying that your limited availability Weapons aren't all that practical for Killing huge droves of Enemies with 1HP like 90% of what we fight with our Warframes..... i fail to see a problem.

just use it on the Enemies that have EHP that actually matter, because you don't need them on the rest at all.

even so, you can make them effective at Killing droves of Lancers if you really want. but also why bother, the Enemies are too weak for it to matter.

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22 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

You apparently either havent played with them all or build them properly.

Fluctus has high Slash/Elemental damage and infinite PunchThrough, it will go through the whole stage if you aim right and easily kills large groups of mobs, specially if they are in tight corridors.

The Hitscan ones can deal massive damage if you have Sabot Rounds (Mod) on them.

Maybe try them on things higher than Hydron, compare them to average-high primaries/secondaries and get back to me.

But no, I haven't played with them all. I don't have to. They are statistically, objectively inferior due to the inferior AW mods.

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Things tend to fall off when taken beyond the expected level at which they are effective, news at 11.

Both the Imperator Vandal and the Fluctus work at Sortie-level without a riven provided there isn't a significant modifier messing with them, any content past that isn't meant to be balanced and approached with any old loadout, it's meant to push you out of the mission.  It's only because our damage output got so out of hand a long while ago that "Can't deal with levels far past 100" is treated the same as "is worthless why did you even spend time developing this this is a slap in the face" even though "Can easily deal with up to level 100 which is basically the entire game outside of long-term endurance runs which have the express purpose of growing wildly unbalanced" is actually pretty damn good.

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Posted (edited)

Hopefully we get Prime Rubedo Lined Barrel/Dual Rounds/Parallax Scope and Hollowed Bullets at some point. 

Archgun 120 elemental mods are good, though it means using 60/60s is a bigger tradeoff. 

Edited by Warhydra
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AW guns are actually pretty decently balanced and with rivens they even compete with some top tier weapons in TTK. Also idk what crazy expenses you talking about that is just laughable. Also AW weapons are here more for fun factor, not everybody need OP tiberon prime lvl of stuff to do good. 

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Imperator Vandal with proper builds is an absolute beast and can destroy single target in seconds i personaly run it for profit taker and use it for wolf, when i get him on leveling frame/wep.

As for Larkspur and Flactus.

I played some time with both. I have 3 different build for Larkspur 1 for pure Damage for primary fire 1 for crit dagame for secondary fire and balanced one for both mode. Its a strong gun but i still prefer use Fluctus in 90% mission type and the reasone for that is HUGE AOE AND PUNCH THROUGH. With proper build Fluctus you can run and just delete EVERYTHING on your way its projectiles goes through walls on huge distance. For the most missions up to level 80 enemys Fluctus is the best AW gun in my opinion.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-01 at 3:49 AM, taiiat said:

idunno. Larkspur is kind garbage outside of Armor Stripping and that's not something rare for Weapons.
if you're saying that your limited availability Weapons aren't all that practical for Killing huge droves of Enemies with 1HP like 90% of what we fight with our Warframes..... i fail to see a problem.

just use it on the Enemies that have EHP that actually matter, because you don't need them on the rest at all.

even so, you can make them effective at Killing droves of Lancers if you really want. but also why bother, the Enemies are too weak for it to matter.

Not even that.

My favoured corinth build (hybrid setup, raw damage and crit stats could be higher if I so chose)

stats-corinth.jpg

Velocitus build:

stats-landvelocitus.jpg

Damage per shot, the velocitus comes out top (81k vs. 50k for the corinth)... but not only does it shoot far more slowly than the number would indicate (yes, the charge time is 1 second, but you get this massive recoil and can't shoot for another second after that), but you need to charge it first and because of the long fire period, every missed shot is very punishing. Corinth, on the other hand, is just tap-BAM. Instant damage, right when I pull the trigger.

DPS with no reloading: Corinth = 58.8k/sec, Velocitus = 40.5k/sec.

Corinth with reloading: 5 shots, then 2 seconds to reload = 251.4k in in 6.27 seconds, or 40.1k sustained DPS.

Velocitus with reloading: 10 shots, then 2 seconds to reload = 810.3k in 22 seconds, or 36.8k sustained DPS.

This is a hybrid build Corinth, which means that I'm using all 4 dual stat mods to get a 100% chance on the airburst. I could get more damage if I went for more crit and used 90% elementals.

Archguns offer nothing above what my normal loadout has, and they're saddled with the huge drawbacks of not being able to regain ammo and taking absolutely forever to equip (also, the poor velocitus also has this enormous recoil problem).

Edited by DoomFruit
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Archguns offer nothing above what my normal loadout has, and they're saddled with the huge drawbacks

yeah, the 'Recoil' stuff is borderline offensive, and it screws with using Critical Focus as well to add insult to injury.

but the Archguns ALSO feel pain from that just like other Guns, the Stats of almost all of them are specifically setup to ensure that Rivens will be required for them to do their job correctly.
like how Velocitus is basically trash without a Riven, because it's probably tied for the clunkiest Weapon to use in the game, and relies on Crits and.... doesn't even Crit consistently?
what the flying f... even.

just as Velocitus can hit ~275,000 per Shot (not including Rivens) in theory, but in practice it both definitely won't because of getting punished for existing RNG wise but also in practicality of actually shooting it.

 

but, they are 'just big Guns' anyways, so ultimately i'm not sure what i could possibly expect from them other than being a Gun, except filling more of my screen.

which is what my point was, if it was really Gun+, what would the point/purpose be?
the Enemies don't have enough Health for more Damage to matter, we already delete maps of Enemies just fine so they're not going to increase efficiency of deleting all the 10HP Enemies. Et Cetera.

Edited by taiiat

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On ‎01‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 9:24 PM, Vox_Preliator said:

Things tend to fall off when taken beyond the expected level at which they are effective, news at 11.

Both the Imperator Vandal and the Fluctus work at Sortie-level without a riven...

No one said they "didn't work" straw king, news at 11.

For the costs and tradeoffs associated with obtaining and using them, they aren't side grades to higher tier rivened primary and many secondary weapons, and this is a function of the underpowered AW mods. They should at least be sidegrades given the costs and tradeoffs of using them.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Avanami said:

Imperator Vandal with proper builds is an absolute beast and can destroy single target in seconds i personaly run it for profit taker and use it for wolf, when i get him on leveling frame/wep.

 

When I had Wolf spawn at lvl 70 on my four forma Imperator Vandal specced full radiation, playing 307% strength buff rhino, I was out of ammo fast and he was still at 80% health.

Then I killed him with the melee weapon I was leveling at the time.

Hmm.

Edited by Buttaface
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14 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

When I had Wolf spawn at lvl 70 on my four forma Imperator Vandal specced full radiation, playing 307% strength buff rhino, I was out of ammo fast and he was still at 80% health.

Then I killed him with the melee weapon I was leveling at the time.

Hmm.

I dunno what you are doing wrong since on a Gara with no damage buffs I took out the 20% health with a half hearted Imperator Vandal... On a level 70 sponge wolf.

Did you aim for the head? Wolf takes less damage from Headshots.

Melee with bloodrush is still faster.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No one said they "didn't work" straw king, news at 11.

For the costs and tradeoffs associated with obtaining and using them, they aren't side grades to higher tier rivened primary and many secondary weapons, and this is a function of the underpowered AW mods. They should at least be sidegrades given the costs and tradeoffs of using them.

If they work, then all is well.

The only reason you don't see the trade-off as worth it is because all of our regular arsenal is buckwild when it really shouldn't be.  What you're encountering is actually balanced gear being compared to years of begging for incrementally more powerful weapons to the detriment of the game as a whole.

When I had Wolf spawn at lvl 70 on my four forma Imperator Vandal specced full radiation, playing 307% strength buff rhino, I was out of ammo fast and he was still at 80% health.

Then I killed him with the melee weapon I was leveling at the time.

Hmm.

That just seems straight-up wrong, a properly-built Imperator Vandal easily takes him out.

Edited by Vox_Preliator

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

If they work, then all is well.

The only reason you don't see the trade-off as worth it is because all of our regular arsenal is buckwild when it really shouldn't be.  What you're encountering is actually balanced gear being compared to years of begging for incrementally more powerful weapons to the detriment of the game as a whole.

That just seems straight-up wrong, a properly-built Imperator Vandal easily takes him out.

Skana "works." But it doesn't require lots of Fortuna advancement, the tradeoff of no secondary and melee, limited ammo, recharge time, in many cases serious recoil and long loading animations.

No, a properly built imperator vandal will not "easily take out" a lvl 70 or so Wolf. OTOH, I killed one yesterday in about 20 seconds while building out a dual zoren for my khora's stat stick.

And it's irrelevant what the power scale of other weapons is, given the tradeoffs, AW weapons are generally, significantly and objectively underpowered in atmosphere.

Edited by Buttaface

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The problem is that the max level Wolf (75 or so) has way more health then the base one on low level and it takes some time to kill him even with OP crit melee like gram prime.

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On 2019-04-30 at 8:03 PM, Buttaface said:

Other than Aimbot Larkspur, AW weapons really don't justify their immense game expense in atmosphere, especially in light of the tradeoffs. The ones I've tried rivened are decent enough, but not close to being sidegrades to the better secondaries or especially primaries. Either the AW mods need dual functions depending on which mode one is in or primed atmosphere only AW mods could be introduced as arbitration or other rewards. Maybe they have planned this, but as it stands there's not much reason to do all the work of having them.

U obviously havnt leveled forma'd and modded fluctus, grattler, imperator vandal or any of the other archguns.... Because they are incredibly powerful. Especially fluctus

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

U obviously havnt leveled forma'd and modded fluctus, grattler, imperator vandal or any of the other archguns.... Because they are incredibly powerful. Especially fluctus

You are wrong.

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39 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

You are wrong.

Im right. Fluctus can wreck anything u aim it at. Grattler can obliterate everything u aim it at.

Imperator vandal is stupid good gun. So is corvas... Corvas is an incredibly high crit flak cannon... I mean, u are modding them correctly?

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On 2019-05-02 at 4:41 PM, DoomFruit said:

Not even that.

My favoured corinth build (hybrid setup, raw damage and crit stats could be higher if I so chose)

stats-corinth.jpg

Velocitus build:

stats-landvelocitus.jpg

Damage per shot, the velocitus comes out top (81k vs. 50k for the corinth)... but not only does it shoot far more slowly than the number would indicate (yes, the charge time is 1 second, but you get this massive recoil and can't shoot for another second after that), but you need to charge it first and because of the long fire period, every missed shot is very punishing. Corinth, on the other hand, is just tap-BAM. Instant damage, right when I pull the trigger.

DPS with no reloading: Corinth = 58.8k/sec, Velocitus = 40.5k/sec.

Corinth with reloading: 5 shots, then 2 seconds to reload = 251.4k in in 6.27 seconds, or 40.1k sustained DPS.

Velocitus with reloading: 10 shots, then 2 seconds to reload = 810.3k in 22 seconds, or 36.8k sustained DPS.

This is a hybrid build Corinth, which means that I'm using all 4 dual stat mods to get a 100% chance on the airburst. I could get more damage if I went for more crit and used 90% elementals.

Archguns offer nothing above what my normal loadout has, and they're saddled with the huge drawbacks of not being able to regain ammo and taking absolutely forever to equip (also, the poor velocitus also has this enormous recoil problem).

Actually, thats mostly just a issue of the Velocitus and Dual Decurion. Velocitus being massively nerfed in atmosphere mode compared to its AW origin (mostly due to ammo/its uncharged shots on ground being S#&$ and due to not having at least 50% base crit chance in exchange for having its base damage axed in almost half; both ofc compared to its own space self) while Decurions are just terrible in AW and simply bergh on ground (slightly made up for being solid with the deadly efficiency mod).

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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Actually, thats mostly just a issue of the Velocitus and Dual Decurion. Velocitus being massively nerfed in atmosphere mode compared to its AW origin (mostly due to ammo/its uncharged shots on ground being S#&$ and due to not having at least 50% base crit chance in exchange for having its base damage axed in almost half; both ofc compared to its own space self) while Decurions are just terrible in AW and simply bergh on ground (slightly made up for being solid with the deadly efficiency mod).

Indeed. Lets compare corinth to corvas... No comparison... Corvas absolutely wrecks.

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19 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Im right. Fluctus can wreck anything u aim it at. Grattler can obliterate everything u aim it at...

 

...on Hydron

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5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

...on Hydron

Anywhere. Fluctus is beastly period. Especially with arcane avenger and ardarza. Fluctus has crazy punch through and gets slash procs easily... Just kills everything... Great in ESO, kuva floods, High duration MoT... Great freakn weapon.

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Actually all AW weapons have 1kish DPS and rather stronger than 80% of weapons, even though still little underwhelming as some BIG GUN with 5 min of cooldown.

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On 2019-05-01 at 4:03 AM, Buttaface said:

Other than Aimbot Larkspur, AW weapons really don't justify their immense game expense in atmosphere, especially in light of the tradeoffs. The ones I've tried rivened are decent enough, but not close to being sidegrades to the better secondaries or especially primaries. Either the AW mods need dual functions depending on which mode one is in or primed atmosphere only AW mods could be introduced as arbitration or other rewards. Maybe they have planned this, but as it stands there's not much reason to do all the work of having them.

I don't know about you but i could kill lvl 132 fodder in 10-15 shots and 20-25 on them bombards and heavy gunners in arbitration with rivenless Imperator Vandal, they are clearly not underpowered as you stated,the exception would be velocitus which is inconsistent about critting, big numbers on crit but so "OOF" when is not,and to fix it you need a riven.

They are fine,and fill that role of powerplay when needed,to shred a hallway full of enemies when your weapons stop being effective enough at times.

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