Units with more HP, less damage, no gimmicks

[devolicious]

An endgame mode with regular units with significantly more HP with less damage and no gimmicky nonsense

More HP:

- address power creep issues

- creates positive feedback from using min/maxed builds (i.e. the issue of why min/max when a regular is more than enough)

- no need to wait for long periods of time to reach beefier units

Less damage:

- encourages the use of weaker/non-meta Warframes that don't have built-in survive-ability

- no more instant death by a stray bullet

No gimmicks:

- bad examples include: spamming knockdowns (like some Corpus units), arbitration drones, units immune to abilities/effects

Edited May 1, 2019 by devolicious

[SpicyDinosaur]

Yea, using your skill to win is so boooring and gimmicky. 

 

Give me bullet sponges that hit like 2 year old children any day.

[SteelOverseer666]

The problem inst coming up with ways on HOW to make the game more "difficult"

The problem is how to implement "difficulty" without alienating a large group of players.

A large portion of the player base will not like having "Bullet sponge" enemies.

Another group wont like having rewards locked behind content they arent able to complete yet.

Another group will be uninterested entirely and be angry something else wasn't developed.

Unfortunately the player base is very split on what we want from warframe and that makes it very hard to develop new content.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SteelOverseer666
Spelling

[GinKenshin]

8 minutes ago, devolicious said:

- address power creep issues

except it doesn't. power creep exists because people want to get the most outta the game while doing the least effort. you can increase the hp all you like but people would still use these meta damage frames 

 

10 minutes ago, devolicious said:

creates positive feedback from using min/maxed builds (i.e. the issue of why min/max when a regular is more than enough)

again, people would just give up survivability mods for more strength and range, it's not solving anything 

10 minutes ago, devolicious said:

no need to wait for long periods of time to reach beefier units

it's not just about beefy units, it's about the danger of their high damage as well, which u removed 

11 minutes ago, devolicious said:

encourages the use of weaker/non-meta Warframes that don't have built-in survive-ability

same reason as above. also what will happens to frames that surviving is their job? 

 

12 minutes ago, devolicious said:

no more instant death by a stray bullet

this is hardly an issue. these kinda of situations encountering using the game's core system of movement, if you'll just walk around and never die then that's no fun 

[devolicious]

2 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Yea, using your skill to win is so boooring and gimmicky. 

I'm not sure where you get this idea.

1 minute ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

This would anger the group of players that doesn't like bullet sponge enemies.

The problem inst coming up with ways on HOW to make the game more "difficult"

The problem is how to implement "difficulty" without alienating a large group of players.

A large portion of the player base will not like having "Bullet sponge" enemies.

Another group wont like having rewards locked behind content they arent able to complete yet.

Another group will be uninterested entirely and be angry something else wasn't developed.

Unfortunately the player base is very split on what we want from warframe and that makes it very hard to develop.

The game currently doesn't really regular content have many bullet sponge enemies unless you wait hours in an endless missions. (Not including boss type units like the Wolf or thumpers)

The game already has content that alienates large groups of players like Eidolons, Orb bosses, Arbitrations, open worlds, conclave, etc.

Locking rewards behind content because they can't do it yet is the essence of game progression.

[devolicious]

 

1 hour ago, GinKenshin said:

again, people would just give up survivability mods for more strength and range, it's not solving anything 

it's not just about beefy units, it's about the danger of their high damage as well, which u removed 

same reason as above. also what will happens to frames that surviving is their job? 

It doesn't make them non-viable. Currently, you can bring Inaros & Ember to the same level 30 mission and they'll both do fine. Players can play what they want. But if you want to bring Inaros and Ember vs 150+ enemies, Inaros would do fine but Ember would not. Obviously the selection of Warframes that can be used becomes more limited.

Edited May 1, 2019 by devolicious

[SteelOverseer666]

13 minutes ago, devolicious said:

I'm not sure where you get this idea.

The game currently doesn't really regular content have many bullet sponge enemies unless you wait hours in an endless missions. (Not including boss type units like the Wolf or thumpers)

The game already has content that alienates large groups of players like Eidolons, Orb bosses, Arbitrations, open worlds, conclave, etc.

Locking rewards behind content because they can't do it yet is the essence of game progression.

Okay... so instead of trying to understand the point I was trying to make you try to pick apart the examples I give?

If you have already made up your mind on this topic and have no intention of having a discussion then why create a thread here?

In the spirit of conversation Ill continue to try.

Ill give you a hypothetical example instead so you might better understand my point:

One group of players wants bullet sponge enemies.

The other group does not want bullet sponge enemies.

Who does DE cater to?

Edited May 1, 2019 by SteelOverseer666
Clarity.

[devolicious]

1 minute ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

Okay... so instead of trying to understand the point I was trying to make you try to pick apart the examples I give?

So ill give you a hypothetical example instead:

One group of players wants bullet sponge enemies.

The other group does not want bullet sponge enemies.

Who does DE cater to?

I understood the point you were making. My response was giving you examples of where content already alienates players and that DE is not obligated to create content that must cater to every group of players. And like I said, the game currently doesn't really regular content have many bullet sponge enemies unless you wait hours in an endless missions. (Not including boss type units like the Wolf or thumpers) So how we know that players don't want bullet sponge enemies?

[SteelOverseer666]

28 minutes ago, devolicious said:

So how we know that players don't want bullet sponge enemies?

You are new to these forums so I cant blame you for not knowing.

Its a more common topic the last while with the wolf showing up but has been at the heart of the warframe difficulty discussion for a long, long time.

How do you make the game more difficult without driving away a large portion of your player base?

This is something alot further reaching than tweaking the optional game modes like eidolons and arbitration.

This will effect everyone.

EDIT: The closest ive seen to an official stance on the topic was in Mogamu's recent interveiw with DE where they say they think the only way to deal with this  is to add "a difficulty setting".

EDIT: Nvm I saw your low post  count and assumed you were new.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SteelOverseer666

[devolicious]

11 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

You are new to these forums so I cant blame you for not knowing.

Its a more common topic the last while with the wolf showing up but has been at the heart of the warframe difficulty discussion for a long, long time.

How do you make the game more difficult without driving away a large portion of your player base?

This is something alot further reaching than optional game modes like eidolons and arbitration.

This will effect everyone.

Honestly, I don't think the Wolf is a fair way to measure this. He's an assassin boss that randomly spawns in player's missions. Therefore, players cannot prepare to fight the Wolf as if he was in a standalone mission node. Many of the complaints I've read stem from having to deal with the Wolf while they have un-leveled gear and level scaling issues. Personally I've haven't had any issues with fighting the Wolf. Plus I don't level my gear at Hydron.

My idea is for a single end game game mode/mission. I didn't say that my idea applies to all enemies.

Edited May 1, 2019 by devolicious

[SteelOverseer666]

9 minutes ago, devolicious said:

Honestly, I don't think the Wolf is a fair way to measure this. He's an assassin boss that randomly spawns in player's missions. Therefore, players cannot prepare to fight the Wolf as if he was in a standalone mission node. Many of the complaints I've read stem from having to deal with the Wolf while they have un-leveled gear and level scaling issues. Personally I've haven't had any issues with fighting the Wolf and I don't level my gear at Hydron.

My idea is for a single end game game mode/mission.

Persoanlly I agree with your veiw on the wolf. I find him to be fun! I am the minority though...and thats okay!

But again thats just an example and people have been saying they want something more than HP scaling for a long time.

That is why arbitration was developed to be the way it is. The gimmicks are DE's answer to "more than just HP scaling"

And again, if you create a gamemode that only a few people can acess the rewards to it will piss people off, as we see with eidolons and such.

Only it will piss people off more because "They should have learned from the mistakes of Eidolons and such"

My primary point is that DE has a tough time ahead of them with trying to figure this out. It is NOT as cut and dry as you make it seem in your OP.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SteelOverseer666

[Walkampf]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb devolicious:

An endgame mode with regular units with significantly more HP with less damage and no gimmicky nonsense

So basically,

More HP, so somebody feels like a badass for chewing through a healthbar like a diabetic guy chewing through a pack of Snickers.

Less damage to people who are just bad at the game get pampered by the game telleing them, that they are not really sucking (when in actuallity they are)

No gimmicks, so even the most braindead idiots can feel great instead of building up some brainmuscle.

To keep up the whole theme:

"Oh yes, you are a very smart person and you have very good ideas. Your parents most be very proud of how smart you are. You are a gift to all the people around you!"

Does something like that work for you?

[Cicasajt]

people think we want enemies to deal no dmg and they think reducing their dmg and increasing their health would make the game even easier. not even worth making a topic if there are this kind of ppl around

Edited May 1, 2019 by Cicasajt

[devolicious]

Quote

And again, if you create a gamemode that only a few people can acess the rewards to it will piss people off, as we see with eidolons and such.

Only it will piss people off more because "They should have learned from the mistakes of Eidolons and such"

Like I said, putting rewards behind difficult content is the essence of game progression. I don't understand why people would be pissed off at end game content. It's not there to be easily accessible to everyone. It's there for people who have spent a long time playing the game and have prepared gear to tackle the content. If it's your opinion that the Eidolons were a mistake, that's fine but I'm sure a lot of players, including myself, enjoy them.

[SteelOverseer666]

2 minutes ago, Cicasajt said:

people think we want enemies to deal no dmg and they think reducing their dmg and increasing their health would make the game even easier. not even worth making a topic is there are this kind of ppl around

Yes, yes, and yes.

[SteelOverseer666]

1 minute ago, devolicious said:

Like I said, putting rewards behind difficult content is the essence of game progression. I don't understand why people would be pissed off at end game content. It's not there to be easily accessible to everyone. It's there for people who have spent a long time playing the game and have prepared gear to tackle the content. If it's your opinion that the Eidolons were a mistake, that's fine but I'm sure a lot of players, including myself, enjoy them.

I never said I think eidolons were a mistake. Now you are putting words in my mouth?

I was simply replying to you saying

"The game already has content that alienates large groups of players like Eidolons, Orb bosses, Arbitrations, open worlds, conclave, etc"

Anyways you repeatedly look past my points to try to pick apart my examples so I am done speaking with you.

Good day sir.

PS. Your idea is poop.

[Autongnosis]

il y a 3 minutes, devolicious a dit :

Like I said, putting rewards behind difficult content is the essence of game progression. I don't understand why people would be pissed off at end game content. It's not there to be easily accessible to everyone. It's there for people who have spent a long time playing the game and have prepared gear to tackle the content. If it's your opinion that the Eidolons were a mistake, that's fine but I'm sure a lot of players, including myself, enjoy them.

That's the epidemic of casual gamers. If it's hard and you can't pay to skip it, it's crap. 

If it requires you to actuallt focus on what you're doing instead of making a script that presses a button on a timer, it's crap. 

Welcome to the 2010s gamer community mate. 

[Artekkor]

Frankly i dont like neither bulletsponges nor one-shoters. Neither are fun to deal with, seeing how this game is all about the horde slaying.

I think the end game enemies must be reasonable in both ways, but not overpowered.

Anyone remembers that event when we had to assault a Grineer Nightwatch Ship and exterminate a hundred or two nightwatch units? I believe that event had some of the most perfectly balanced enemies in the game:
1) They were just spongy enough to not die from single bullet of Braton Prime but also wouldn't eat 50+ bullets either.
2) They dealt just enough damage to be a problem, but not annoyingly a lot like Sortie 3 enemies with radiation damage slaped on top do.

I think DE should look back at that and make that a golden standart or something. Just strong enough to be challenging and problematic but not fruatrustingly overpowered to kill you in 1 second and durable enough to not get rolled over, but also not high enough to become tedious.

Although i think the boringness of enemies mostly comes from apathy to being shot and cut - no flinching or anything - and DE already said they are working on a system that will make enemies give way more feedback when being hurt. I really do hope that will change the way the game feels right now.

[devolicious]

22 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

Only it will piss people off more because "They should have learned from the mistakes of Eidolons and such"

 

6 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

I never said I think eidolons were a mistake. Now you are putting words in my mouth?

I was simply replying to you saying

"The game already has content that alienates large groups of players like Eidolons, Orb bosses, Arbitrations, open worlds, conclave, etc"

Anyways you repeatedly look past my points to try to pick apart my examples so I am done speaking with you.

Good day sir.

PS. Your idea is poop.

 

9 minutes ago, devolicious said:

If it's your opinion that the Eidolons were a mistake, that's fine but I'm sure a lot of players, including myself, enjoy them.

Since you said it in your post, it seemed like that was your opinion. Plus, I did say if...

Edited May 1, 2019 by devolicious

[devolicious]

5 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

That's the epidemic of casual gamers. If it's hard and you can't pay to skip it, it's crap. 

If it requires you to actuallt focus on what you're doing instead of making a script that presses a button on a timer, it's crap. 

Welcome to the 2010s gamer community mate. 

Ikr...and my idea isn't even that extreme of an idea either.

[SteelOverseer666]

3 minutes ago, devolicious said:

Since you said it in your post, it seems like that was your opinion. Plus, I did say if...

LOL you quoted your own post thinking it was me?. You are the only one who has stated his opinion on eidolons.

I think you need a nap.

EDIT: Oh I see now, you just dont know what "quotes" are. Perhaps before you tackle the intricacies of video game development you should master the art of punctuation first.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SteelOverseer666

[devolicious]

2 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

LOL you quoted your own post thinking it was me?. You are the only one who has stated his opinion on eidolons.

I think you need a nap.

I quoted myself to show that I said if to show that I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Edited May 1, 2019 by devolicious

[SteelOverseer666]

1 minute ago, devolicious said:

I quoted myself to show that I said if.

See above Edit.

I have nothing more to say other than.

LOOOL

Edited May 1, 2019 by SteelOverseer666

[Autongnosis]

il y a 4 minutes, devolicious a dit :

Ikr...and my idea isn't even that extreme of an idea either.

I still think yours is not the way to go about it, because enemies being not dangerous and engaging enough is precisely the problem we face now, so tbh i would do the exact opposite after a normalisation pass for frames EHP to avoid one having 2k barely and another having 220k.

[devolicious]

40 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

I never said I think eidolons were a mistake. Now you are putting words in my mouth?

I was simply replying to you saying

"The game already has content that alienates large groups of players like Eidolons, Orb bosses, Arbitrations, open worlds, conclave, etc"

Anyways you repeatedly look past my points to try to pick apart my examples so I am done speaking with you.

Good day sir.

PS. Your idea is poop.

To clarify, alienates doesn't mean mistake.