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CrazyDarkSonic

Feedback and Idea's for Melee 3.0

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First, let me say that I don't want to give the idea that this is just based on how I feel more comfortable to play or that I believe this idea is perfectly designed.
I understand that some people are satisfied with the changes as they are now, but I'm sure there are many others, like me, that are just bothered by the small things, like the lack of manual block, autoblock getting in the way of shooting, gliding forcing weapon change, and other small problems that not many people care enough or just think that the problem are us not being able to adapt to those changes.
Don't get me wrong, I do like few of the changes in this new melee 2.9 and I think DE is going to the right direction by creating this fast paced gunplay with fast melee switching.
The changes I'll show here don't really take away what we already have, actually, it's only a question of correcting a few key binding combinations but also trying to create a more smart way of changing melee to gun and vice-versa.
I know I didn't need to make a new thread just for this, but this is more of a suggestion than just feedback, anyway, I like to call this change "Melee Trinity and Holding Priority".

1. Melee Trinity (not the warframe...)

So, in a simple way to put it, Melee 2.9 is about a link with the Melee Attack and Fire Weapon by making AIM or Fire Weapon Button(unless you use the keep melee on left mouse button option) switch back to gun. Also ditching block to auto and adding a channeling button.
This set of changes gave me the idea that some buttons can and just do the same thing, and by using the button holding, different combinations of actions could be done. But the problem here is what to fuse to the same key, we have MELEE, SHOOT, AIM and BLOCK(not including channeling for now).
Normaly, some would say that aiming and blocking are just the same thing, but fusing those is just not possible due the adicional mechanics each one provide, so instead I suggest to fuse both melee and shooting to be the same button(LMB).
By fusing Melee and Shooting, there would be space for aiming and manual block by changing block to the Melee atk button(E button by default, but I like to use the side mouse button).

So, with this new form, we have: Shoot/Melee(ATTACK) -> Left Mouse Button / Aim/glide(GUN MODE) -> Right Mouse Button / Block/Glide(MELEE MODE) -> E Button.
I know some may see this as a bad change because now attacking with any weapon is literally the same key, but in this way, instead of having "what I'm holding now" at the mercy of the Aim as well having to be forced to attack once just to go into melee, all what you have to do now is TAP...

You have a pistol, "LMB" to shoot, "RMB" hold to aim, "E" to block and go into melee mode, don't need to hold, just TAP, then you hold your sword, "LMB" to atack and do combos, "E" hold to block, "RMB" to AIM  and go into gun mode, just TAP and now you hold the pistol.

With this change, I believe it will resolve SO many problem with the current Melee, things like stance combos using blocking(as it is now, feels annoying to perform), gliding choosing what you want to hold, blocking only when you want, preventing to stagger by block when you are trying to shoot, quick switch without giving priority to gun aiming or forcing a melee atk to change.
So many things with just this small change, of course the idea is to keep the same speed that the weapons change just like what we have now, but this is not everything...
Maybe this way will make controls a little complicated, but just having to TAP BLOCK or AIM to switch, hopefully, will feel more faster than now as well give a better sense of control as you do what you want and not let the game do it for you.

8nFAE1m.png

2. Holding Priority

That may be enough for you but not for me, now that we have 2 buttons that HOLD, what it needs now is a system of priority and combo actions between Blocking and Aiming.
Simple put, what you press and hold first, the next button will allow an extra action,in another words, this may allow the use of quick melee once again and possibly more.
Here are the possibilities:

1- Quick Melee: Hold BLOCK"E" and press/tap AIM"RMB" instead of ATTACK"LMB"
Pros- Instead of going into combo, it will bring back the old quick melee that some players enjoyed for certain weapons, you would keep doing it as long you hold block and mashing aim.
Cons- I'm not quite sure, but I believe that before, holding block would reduce your movement speed, so if this method were to come back, blocking should not slow down the movement speed, otherwise, you can only use Q.M. standing close enough or not moving at all. There is also the stag animation from blocking heavy hits that could get in the way...
I'm sure some would prefer if quick melee was just another key, but setting Q.M. with BLOCK(HOLD)+AIM(TAP) give it more space for actions in this new system.

hXm89Gw.png

2- Gliding priority and Ground Slams: As I implied above, both blocking and aiming while in the air will decide what you hold while you glide, but there is also the Ground Slam, how it works: regardless of what you holding, jump and hold AIM, you glide with pistol, ATTACK to fire AND you do Aerial Attack/Ground Slam now with BLOCK(in the air). After doing a Aerial Attack while gliding with AIM, it will do it once but won't change the gliding priority(in this case AIM).
As for Melee it could be reversed OR with a few differences: jump, hold BLOCK, glide while defending with sword, press AIM to Aerial Attack/Ground Slam and ATTACK to fire with gun without aiming(zoom) or breaking the blocking mode(maybe only for secondary).
This is how it could be if it was only reversed from the other glide, but I'm not certain myself, you see, I don't think gliding with melee should be just like with guns, it don't make sense to be able to shoot if you start a glide with block, so here is a alternative:
Jump, Hold BLOCK, glide(melee), then use either ATTACK or AIM to do Aerial Attack/Ground Slam, let's say ATTACK because it's the most logical, then for AIM, this is where we have a free "alternative action to set or maybe brand new ability" slot. This could be used as a additional atk for melee while in the air or used for those unique types of melees like Glaive, Gunblade, etc.
Also you can switch between both ways of gliding by alternating holding AIM and BLOCK, since you can activate glide many times before you touch the ground, aim+glide and shoot, release, block+glide against incoming projectiles, release and so on.
Just to be clear, jumping without gliding and then pressing ATTACK will do a Melee Attack or Fire Weapon depending of what you currently holding.
Sorry if this part sounds complicated, it's just two ways of gliding depending on what button you hold first and then using the other to do something else.

3- Combo Interrupts/Resume: Nothing different from what we have, but just by having to tap to trade between melee combo and gunfire, I believe it would be much more effective and easier to do it than before, mostly because we could actually do combos with blocking without having to worry about popping a gun at the end of it, anyway, all it would require is to get used to quickly tap BLOCK and AIM to shoot or resume the combo and add the Quick Melee from BLOCK(hold)+AIM at anytime(this should break the combo though).
There may be problems that I'm not predicting here in relation to combos, as well in general, but I can only see good changes with this. Plz tell me if I'm wrong.

4- Unique Weapons changes: Ok, now I will just details a few changes with this new system...

Glaive: Not many changes for glaives, but personally I feel like most people that want to use Glaives, they go for the "throw it and secondary" combo, the main problem about glaives(for me) is that if you rely on the throwing only, you will be spending more time charging it then doing constant damage, may not be a big deal since there is now Amalgam Organ Shatter, but still...
My change is, when holding both Glaive and any secondary, you can throw the glaive without getting locked in charging animation or stop shooting, tap or hold(charged) BLOCK while holding AIM and you can charge and throw you glaive(press BLOCK again to detonate) while firing with you secondary nonstop.
Another thing, this is just something I wish Glaives could do, if you remember,there was a glitch(I guess) where if you detonate as soon as you launch the glaive, it would then begin to fly around you, almost like a shield, so this could either be implemented via amp mod, new glaive ability, but it could be something for all glaives by using a BLOCK(hold)+AIM COMBO.
While holding your Primary then taping to go for Glaive only, hold BLOCK and then charge with AIM, then this unique charge throw will make your glaive spin around you for a limited time doing damage as it follows you without the detonation, also, after throwing, you can switch back to your primary, creating a different way of using glaives, not only with secondaries but primary weapons as well.
Anyway just extra ideas...

6I7P8tS.png

Gunblade: The main change here is the use of Gunblades as full guns. Using Sarpa or Redeemer, hold AIM and fire with BLOCK like if they were rifle/shotgun, maybe a limit or just ammo could be included to not be misused as infinite ammo guns, which already is...
My main problem with gunblades right now, is the annoying lack of manual block to use a combo part(Bullet Dance) for the sake of always keep shooting, add this to the auto block when you try to shoot things, melee 2.9 made gunblades worse for me for sure.
Just let us use them like we use ours guns, give them ammo if you need to make it balanced, but let me FIRE. If the problem is that this way of using those weapons is not intended, then change the stances, because I see no point in relying on stances for melees I can just shoot with it.

Sword and Shield: Ok, now here I do have a new idea, with BLOCK and AIM being independent, the shield part of the weapons could be used in combination with guns, yes, in the same way the Shield Lancers do. There are two ways to implement this...
First, while holding sword and shield and any secondary(at the same time just like glaives), you can now choose what to use with the shield, both BLOCK and AIM will make you raise the shield, the difference is that BLOCK will keep the sword and shield stance and AIM will let you fire your secondary while blocking(not stag), it should reduce your movement or just keep you stationary for the GUN MODE, but it allow you to fire and block at the same time.
The second way is more simple as instead you just hold BLOCK and tap AIM to directly fire your secondary, then if you just want to switch to GUN MODE just tap/hold AIM.
I prefer the second one, but I not sure if players would like this change for this type of melee.

yL7X2ir.png

Blade and Whip: Don't know if people that use this even care, but with melee 2.9, this weapon is no longer Blade and Whip, it's just whip, wasn't this thing's gimmick to be able to use one-hand sword quick melee attack? I honestly never got interested on this type of melee, but I'm sure this system could create something interesting for those.
Like maybe allowing the use of the blade form with a AIM(hold)+BLOCK(tap) combo, not sure about stances though, or at the very least give it a whip or blade unique attack or let this pull charge attack be free of the charge time at all?
Don't have anything concrete for this one, but still, the new melee took out the blade thing, now this is just a new type of weapon with 2... actually just 1 stance, the other is conclave only. Could really use some changes and buffs.

Maybe more?... I recently saw a thread about how weak blocking is in general, I do agree, but I don't have any good idea to make it better for now, maybe let blocking increase/keep the combo multiplier/timer?
About channeling, I can't say much as I don't really use it, besides maybe life steal, but I quite liked the use of a toggle system, still needs a buff or change in my opinion, like transform channeling itself in a power boost given via combo reward, similar to a fighting game, where the more you hit more channel power you have to use, no longer dependent on energy.
Channeling could also be used with the Secondary Fire(middle mouse button) when using melee instead of creating a new button just for it.

Anyway that's everything I wanted to show. I'm sorry if the text feels convoluted but I like being detailist, I hope the images make it easier to understand.
To finish this, I just want to say that all I want, is to make all those small little problem goes away without taking away what DE gave us, I don't know what they plan for future changes in the melee, but as it is now, it's just not quite the brand new melee I was hoping for.

PS: I'm no programer but I believe that something like this Holding priority combo is viable, no?

 

TL:DR Change LMB to Melee Attack/Fire Weapon, RMB to AIM and change/glide to/with Primary/Secondary,  "E" to BLOCK and change/glide to/with Melee, Hold BLOCK and press AIM to quick melee or to perform other actions(hold AIM + tap BLOCK as well).

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Can you rewrite all the whole post but put everything into the console format? Remember we console players only have 14 buttons to use.
A lot of players have been asking for melee changes for the past year now. DE have stated that changes are coming. That's all we had for the past year. There's really nothing we can do UNTIL DE decide to give us the next phase of the melee changes.

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Let me save you the trouble of rewriting this for consoles. This entire system seems overly complicated and convoluted. I appreciate the premise of what you're trying to do here, by bringing back some of the old system while keeping the new system, but Warframe can be confusing enough as it is, and the last thing new players need is a daunting, overly complicated melee system on top of it all. Not trying to be rude, but I don't see anything like this being implemented for lack of simplicity.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

Can you rewrite all the whole post but put everything into the console format? Remember we console players only have 14 buttons to use.
A lot of players have been asking for melee changes for the past year now. DE have stated that changes are coming. That's all we had for the past year. There's really nothing we can do UNTIL DE decide to give us the next phase of the melee changes.

As for consoles, while I don't have any experience playing warframe with a controller, I believe it will only need the use of 2 top trigger buttons(L1,L2,R1,R2) one for BLOCK and other for AIM as the player need to be able to hold at least one of them while performing other action, unfortunately, I can't say too much about it.
I was planning to talk about the controls version, but I eventually forgot while rewriting, sorry.

Also, to be honest, I know there will be coming new changes stuff to melee, but if the things started like this, by attempting to make cuts to actions like blocking and making stuff become more automatic...
I don't know, I just don't have high hopes, maybe I'm wrong, I hope I am,  DE already took away so many good things before and refuse to revert them, but it's their game.

As for the fact of being "complicated", the only thing that may be difficult for them to do, is the ability to have actions implemented via hold(block or aim) and pressing the other one.

I see no reason to not just make both melee atk and firing guns the same key and them using the previous melee button to block as well change Melee/Gun holding.
This part at least should not be complicated to understand.

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The question isn't whether it's complicated for the developers, it's whether it would be complicated for players to pick up and understand easily. Right now, Warframe has a fairly comprehensive control system, while still being more complex than most other titles that are out right now. As I was reading your post, I found myself having to read and re-read most of your points to understand what you were trying to explain, which, in itself, shows a flaw in the system. Any control system for a game that is meant to be accessible to all players needs, at its core, to be easily grasped.

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How about we simplify all of this to just reverting back to the melee prior to update and make actual improvements to it and not change it completely?

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If it doesn't work with a controller there's no way your idea works. Plus i don't think that autoblock is that bad and still didn't have read any viable argument against it except from some issues with gunblades. Aimglide also isn't broken by any means, it's smooth as hell and we can even choose to do a slam attack to get further in a sec. Anyway gliding with a blade was dumb as hell, John Woo only approves aimglide with a gun.

No one was using the block option, especially people who were doing a lot of melee. Perhaps some others were niche players but in the end DE had to change this option cause it wasn't working nor used. Sometimes change has to happen for good reasons, let's face it. When i read some threads it feels like melee 2.9 is some apocalypse which is kind of weird since tweaks apart (combos soon to be reworked anyway and some slight adaptations) nothing has really changed yet, except that gameplay is way smoother. And that's not a bad thing so far.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, 000l000 said:

If it doesn't work with a controller there's no way your idea works. Plus i don't think that autoblock is that bad and still didn't have read any viable argument against it except from some issues with gunblades. Aimglide also isn't broken by any means, it's smooth as hell and we can even choose to do a slam attack to get further in a sec. Anyway gliding with a blade was dumb as hell, John Woo only approves aimglide with a gun.

No one was using the block option, especially people who were doing a lot of melee. Perhaps some others were niche players but in the end DE had to change this option cause it wasn't working nor used. Sometimes change has to happen for good reasons, let's face it. When i read some threads it feels like melee 2.9 is some apocalypse which is kind of weird since tweaks apart (combos soon to be reworked anyway and some slight adaptations) nothing has really changed yet, except that gameplay is way smoother. And that's not a bad thing so far.

I don't care what the reasons for this change are, all I care about are the outcomes. And those suck.

Gameplay is very much not smoother. When before I would have been able to slice at enemies with my Lesion while running around them in any way I please, I now seem to step in a patch of superglue after every 3rd strike and stop dead still. If I pull out a stave, it's even worse - sometimes I'll get launched forwards past the enemy and possibly over the edge (this happened a hell of a lot when I was levelling up my Tipedo Prime on Xini). Being forced out of pursuit or away from my target is objectively worse than being able to continue smooth pursuit while striking. Yes, this is a combo issue. But combos have been issues ever since they were introduced (and is the reason why I always used quick melee).

If DE were going to fix them, they would have fixed them before forcing the entire broken system on everyone. That's just the sensible thing to do, y'know. But they didn't, and so I've got no reason to believe that it's ever going to get any better. All past evidence (abandonment of archwing, raids, sanctuary onslaught, etc.) indicates that something will be shoved out in a broken state and then completely forgotten.

Gunplay is less smooth as well. Swing your sword? Well, no more alt-fire for you. Gotta press the aim key to bring it back. This gets in the way, it makes the game less smooth.

Syndicate procs? Nope. Swing your sword and your Sanctigris will stop charging up. Or, if it's exploded, it won't drain back down again so that it can refill. Sure, you can bring it back with the aim key, but the game is actively getting in my way at this point. That's very much the opposite of smoothness.

Empty magazine? That ain't reloading if you swung your sword because once again, the game thinks it knows what's best and has forced the gun out of my hands. I never wanted that, game. Stop getting in my way.

Blocking - I only ever used that when standing on pads in raids (RIP), but a few dedicated players did. Using something like the Ack & Brunt or the Vaykor Sydon along with the Guardian Derision mod. Not my playstyle personally, but they liked it. And now they can't do it any more, not that it would help much since the blocking angle has been halved. Also, while I never used blocking, it's now been forced upon me. I do not want to block. I want to charge up my Redeemer. Stop. Getting. IN. MY WAY.

EDIT: oh, and there's fishing and mining. Swing your sword once when the tool's out and you'll have to go back into the gear wheel to find it again. Very smooth.

Edited by DoomFruit
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23 hours ago, CrazyDarkSonic said:

-snip-

This post seems like a lot of work, which is commendable. Sadly, I have to inform you, all this work is for nothing, because what you suggest is a dedicated melee/gun mode, which we actually had before melee 2.999 droped. It was removed precisely because DE envisioned seamless action combat style.
Whether you like it or not is subjective, but there are pros as well as cons for this new direction. Personally, i like the idea, but laugh at the execution.

  • no active block or melee aimglide. It defenitelly feels worse with auto blocking and in order to reintroduce manual block we need one additional button.
  • toogle channel. Honestly, I have no idea why they made it toogle instead of press to activate. Glave's power throw now requires more input and general fighting is not as on point as it used to be. Channeling mechanic in general failed and was kept alive only by Life Strike. At this point it can be put to sleep and from what DE said on future of melee, it might even happen. Still no excuse for the toogle option atm.
  • no quickmelee. It all runs down to good stance combos, even in the past there were weapons with bad quick melee. Solution: just make good stance move sets, then basic strikes can fulfill the old quick melee function or simply not restrain movement and everyone is happy.

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Il y a 1 heure, DoomFruit a dit :

Gameplay is very much not smoother. When before I would have been able to slice at enemies with my Lesion while running around them in any way I please, I now seem to step in a patch of superglue after every 3rd strike and stop dead still.

As i said above, they're reworking combos. Patience is all you need then.

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2 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

As i said above, they're reworking combos. Patience is all you need then.

That won't do anything about broken syndicate procs, alt-fire, empty magazines no longer reloading, spears/mining lasers unequipping themselves or that stupid autoblock "feature".

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il y a 48 minutes, DoomFruit a dit :

That won't do anything about broken syndicate procs, alt-fire, empty magazines no longer reloading, spears/mining lasers unequipping themselves or that stupid autoblock "feature".

Then you're not talking about any gameplay at all but only bugs (and to be fair not a single one i've ever experienced so far). Getting rid of an entire overhaul only because you may experience some bugs seems quite overreacted to me.

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8 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Then you're not talking about any gameplay at all but only bugs (and to be fair not a single one i've ever experienced so far). Getting rid of an entire overhaul only because you may experience some bugs seems quite overreacted to me.

No, read it again. Those aren't bugs, those are consequences of the sword forcing itself into my hand when I never wanted it. They are direct faults of this overhaul.

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As other people have said this is too complicated, besides that having access to shields with secondary is great idea it would be nice to get even more dual wield options

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Posted (edited)

Last stream it was a random mention of juggling mechanics, and now the biggest news we have is of WIP enemies with a "new armor type that has to be destroyed in melee" and "more heroic finishers."

This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

First, enemies which can ONLY be countered a specific way are annoying. Players will not interpret them as "challenging" or "engaging." They will see it as being forced to jump through hoops and resent being strongarmed into a specific style of play. We saw this before with Nullifiers punishing semi-automatic until the introduction of bubble drones, and this is going to be the same problem all over again.

I, for one, don't want to see "forced melee" any more than I want to see "forced gunplay" the way we currently do with bosses like Sargas Ruk and Lephantis. When players ask for a "reason" to use melee, what they are really complaining about is the lack of potential for engagement - especially with melee enemies.

For example there are really only 2 types of melee enemies in the game: fodder-tier enemies like Butchers, Guardsmen, Prod Crewmen, etc. which players can mow through like grass, and "hero-tier" enemies like Conculysts and the Wolf who can't be safely engaged in melee without some sort of immunity crutch to avoid being staggered out of combos.

Players are looking for engagement; searching for enemies which can actually be FOUGHT in melee, rather than simple tank-stacking DPS races of basic attacks.

Noteworthy enemies like assassins/bosses should offer multiple paths of engagement, compatible with melee, gunplay, or both.

For example, players could need to build up combo meter to a certain level before unleashing a scaled heavy attack to injure one of Lephantis' legs and make one of its heads vulnerable to melee attacks for a time. Players could need to "parry" Ruk's fireball attack back into his face to overload his suit and make him vulnerable to melee for a time.

As long as you keep melee and gunplay roughly equal in terms of damage potential, players will have a "reason" to use melee as soon as you give them enemies they can actually interact with.

Please do not segregate melee and gunplay into entirely separate roles or tiers of efficacy, especially after you just went through the trouble of reintegrating them after the "melee mode" split.

Second, have you not been paying attention to feedback about finishers? The majority of threads I see asking about the topic are asking for options to AVOID them (e.g., trigger finishers manually with X rather than E), not fancier/more involved animations.

Finishers are largely unpopular because they are slow, inefficient, and look very awkward due to the forced repositioning used to play overcomplicated animations. Adding even more involved finishers is going to make things worse, not better.

Finishers should be simplified and streamlined, not extended and made more obtrusive.

Stealth finishers are one thing, but intensified melee effects like swing speed, sound cues, trail visuals, and resulting death gibs would get the point across while being fairly quick and position-independent.

Lastly,

What the heck is going on with all the Melee 3.0 features players were originally sold on?

  • You announced that you would be releasing updated/streamlined stances in batches. Which stances are done? In progress? What is happening with this?
  • Where are the melee balance pass and accompanying Riven disposition changes?
  • What is happening with the proposed Combo Meter changes (e.g., faster scaling tiers, heavy attacks, blocking building combo, etc.) and related mod changes?

I'm sure there's more you haven't told us about your plans, but I think the next melee-related Dev Workshop is overdue at this point because hearing absolutely NOTHING about key topics of interest and brief mentions of unrelated/unplanned/unexplained added features is the oppposite of reassuring.

It comes across as unwillingness/inability/disinterest in committing to actual substantive changes akin to procrastination, and it reduces confidence in the quality of development.

I'm not saying that you answer directly to the community, or trying to imply that we have any right to set your priorities, but at the VERY LEAST if you don't want to do something please tell us so that we can stop anticipating it.

Looking forward to "improvements" with melee 3.0 gets more taxing when it seems like those improvements might not actually be coming.

Some better transparency on the subject would be much appreciated.

Edited by DiabolusUrsus
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I must be the odd man out here when I say I like the aspect of having to use other forms of attack to break down an enemy.  I really don't see anything wrong with being forced to melee break a shield. And folk like you always complain about it would "take too long" but at the same time ignore the fact that their power-creep weapon basically one-shots their enemy otherwise.

It only feels like extra work because everything else essentially gets instantly deleted.

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To add to this: A return of manual blocking...WHEN?

Auto-blocking for the most part is irritating and inconvenient at the very least.

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I have brought these up before, and as the dev stream mentioned continued fixes to melee, I want to circle back to these two features that make up the rest of the Melee QoL issues that still persist.

1) Toggling Finisher Use: Some builds are designed around opening finisher vulnerability then exploiting it, others are built around being so strong and fast that regular attacks are far more effective than being slowed down by single-kill finishers. For those who build in the second way, finishers are a massive hindrance, and can even be hazardous as it allows enemies to congregate and attack someone who - if they didn't have to perform a finisher - wouldn't be there long enough for enemies to gather, or would have already killed everything. As a master of blade and gun, a Tenno should have the agency to choose NOT to perform finishers, and be able to completely disregard them. 

2) Adding Angles to Attacks: Some stances that lack a vertical strike, or a strike that goes below waist-level and above eye-level in order to hit grounded or flying targets. Instead of melee attacks always flowing exactly the same way, angling up or down should allow for attacks in those directions, so melee users don't have to switch to shooting to take care of a threat that is in their face or ankles and is actively blocking their collision path. I realize there's more to this than simply throwing in a "lean forward" and "lean back" blend shape that orients the character differently, and that this may require additional work or even a full overhaul of melee visuals to allow for angle compensation, but I have a feeling the team can find a more efficient solution. 

What do you think, folks?

 

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Then it seems we need to wait till they explain more of their plans for meele 3.0. I personally think the challenge here is not really can be achieved without dumbling down some systems. The meele 2.0 was much more enjoyable at least for me and I do not wish to talk in the name of others but most of the players liked the 2.0 and it's major flaws were the polearm and whip combos and fast quick meele. Balance between the weak tier enemies and medium to heavy tier is hard but they could just focus on a little bit more. Artifically expanded "challenges" like Wolf with immunity phases is not always fun while some person may enjoy it. 

That also not fun the majority of the mobs are too easy but dumbling down the meele to achieve this is something what I do not wish. Let's wait what they will say in the devworkshop.

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22 minutes ago, AshenHaze said:

I must be the odd man out here when I say I like the aspect of having to use other forms of attack to break down an enemy.  I really don't see anything wrong with being forced to melee break a shield.

What would be preferable to you:

a. Having several different options for countering an enemy, to use as you please, or

b. Being forced to use 1 specific method to counter that enemy every time you encounter it?

There's nothing wrong with needing to melee break a shield, but that should not be the ONLY method to approach that enemy.

22 minutes ago, AshenHaze said:

And folk like you always complain about it would "take too long" but at the same time ignore the fact that their power-creep weapon basically one-shots their enemy otherwise.

Nice strawman. I never said that, nor would I even agree that it would "take too long." I just prefer to have options rather than be forced to always use 1 specific counter strategy.

22 minutes ago, AshenHaze said:

It only feels like extra work because everything else essentially gets instantly deleted.

This has nothing at all to do with the core message of my feedback. Forcing players to take a "color by numbers" approach to combating enemies is rarely well-received.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Last stream it was a random mention of juggling mechanics, and now the biggest news we have is of WIP enemies with a "new armor type that has to be destroyed in melee" and "more heroic finishers."

This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

First, enemies which can ONLY be countered a specific way are annoying. Players will not interpret them as "challenging" or "engaging." They will see it as being forced to jump through hoops and resent being strongarmed into a specific style of play. We saw this before with Nullifiers punishing semi-automatic until the introduction of bubble drones, and this is going to be the same problem all over again.

I, for one, don't want to see "forced melee" any more than I want to see "forced gunplay" the way we currently do with bosses like Sargas Ruk and Lephantis. When players ask for a "reason" to use melee, what they are really complaining about is the lack of potential for engagement - especially with melee enemies.

For example there are really only 2 types of melee enemies in the game: fodder-tier enemies like Butchers, Guardsmen, Prod Crewmen, etc. which players can mow through like grass, and "hero-tier" enemies like Conculysts and the Wolf who can't be safely engaged in melee without some sort of immunity crutch to avoid being staggered out of combos.

Players are looking for engagement; searching for enemies which can actually be FOUGHT in melee, rather than simple tank-stacking DPS races of basic attacks.

Noteworthy enemies like assassins/bosses should offer multiple paths of engagement, compatible with melee, gunplay, or both.

For example, players could need to build up combo meter to a certain level before unleashing a scaled heavy attack to injure one of Lephantis' legs and make one of its heads vulnerable to melee attacks for a time. Players could need to "parry" Ruk's fireball attack back into his face to overload his suit and make him vulnerable to melee for a time.

As long as you keep melee and gunplay roughly equal in terms of damage potential, players will have a "reason" to use melee as soon as you give them enemies they can actually interact with.

Please do not segregate melee and gunplay into entirely separate roles or tiers of efficacy, especially after you just went through the trouble of reintegrating them after the "melee mode" split.

Second, have you not been paying attention to feedback about finishers? The majority of threads I see asking about the topic are asking for options to AVOID them (e.g., trigger finishers manually with X rather than E), not fancier/more involved animations.

Finishers are largely unpopular because they are slow, inefficient, and look very awkward due to the forced repositioning used to play overcomplicated animations. Adding even more involved finishers is going to make things worse, not better.

Finishers should be simplified and streamlined, not extended and made more obtrusive.

Stealth finishers are one thing, but intensified melee effects like swing speed, sound cues, trail visuals, and resulting death gibs would get the point across while being fairly quick and position-independent.

Lastly,

What the heck is going on with all the Melee 3.0 features players were originally sold on?

  • You announces that you would be releasing updated/streamlined stances in batches. Which stances are done? In progress? What is happening with this?
  • Where are the melee balance pass and accompanying Riven disposition changes?
  • What is happening with the proposed Combo Meter changes (e.g., faster scaling tiers, heavy attacks, blocking building combo, etc.) and related mod changes?

I'm sure there's more you haven't told us about your plans, but I think the next melee-related Dev Workshop is overdue at this point because hearing absolutely NOTHING about key topics of interest and brief mentions of unrelated/unplanned/unexplained added features is the oppposite of reassuring.

It comes across as unwillingness/inability/disinterest in committing to actual substantive changes akin to procrastination, and it reduces confidence in the quality of development.

I'm not saying that you answer directly to the community, or trying to imply that we have any right to set your priorities, but at the VERY LEAST if you don't want to do something please tell us so that we can stop anticipating it.

Looking forward to "improvements" with melee 3.0 gets more taxing when it seems like those improvements might not actually be coming.

Some better transparency on the subject would be much appreciated.

Not sure why your topic is merged here considering that it has nothing to do with this thread, but I 100% agree with everything you said.

The "new armor type that has to be destroyed in melee" is especially frustrating, after all the feedback DE got about Nullifiers hard-countering snipers/bows. I honestly don't even know what they're thinking at this point-- this is literally the same problem as before, but with a different weapon category. And possibly worse this time, since they're going for "full immunity" rather than "very reduced effectiveness", apparently.

 

2 hours ago, AshenHaze said:

I must be the odd man out here when I say I like the aspect of having to use other forms of attack to break down an enemy.  I really don't see anything wrong with being forced to melee break a shield.

In a game about giving players a variety of build choices, reducing the number of build choices (e.g. by hard-countering any build that isn't proficient in melee) is not a good way of going about things. Not everyone wants to rely on melee weapons, in the same way that not everyone wanted to shelve their Snipers/Bows due to nullies existing.

2 hours ago, AshenHaze said:

And folk like you always complain about it would "take too long" but at the same time ignore the fact that their power-creep weapon basically one-shots their enemy otherwise.

It only feels like extra work because everything else essentially gets instantly deleted.

Literally no one made any mention of that here, but I'll bite.

Until we get a fundamental damage+scaling rework, invulnerability gimmicks (especially with bosses) are kind of a necessary evil in a game like this, because of how wildly damage output varies between players and builds. The problematic invulnerability gimmicks are the ones that overwhelmingly favour certain builds while hard-countering everything else. These enemies just get demolished by build X, while essentially halting mission progress for anything that isn't build X.

The Profit-taker orb is an example of invul gimmicks done poorly. "Chroma + raw-damage weapons" is almost the only viable option; everything else is trash in comparison.

The Exploiter orb is an example of invul gimmicks done better. Every frame is perfectly viable (with tanks and mobile frames having a slight advantage) as long as they're holding a gun; the challenge in the fight comes from being able to move+aim+dodge (which is largely disconnected from what build you're running).

 

The proposed "invulnerable to anything but melee" enemies look more like the former than the latter, unfortunately.

Edited by SortaRandom
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As someone who plays primarily melee only, running into scenarios and enemies where using melee isn’t even an option is infuriating. I can understand challenge limits like weapon restrictions in sortie missions, but other situations is pretty rough. I could use a glaive to take down raptor version 1 & 2, but some Grineer bosses, Eidolons and Profit Taker are suicide missions. 

I’m really hoping melee 3.0 actually makes things a better and more engaging experience, but it’s not looking like it. Melee 1.0 had builds you could make work well if stamina usage was managed. Melee 2.0 was a little better where channeling was pretty good if both frame and weapon were built for it, as well as being able to take tactical advantage of certain weapons through manual blocking (Vaykor Sydon for example). Melee now is a little prettier, but seems to want to dumb down and treat melee as just something to do between reloads. 

I still love the game but I’m finding myself increasingly more interested in decorating my dojo than actually playing missions now. DE,please, make melee actually better with the full 3.0 release. Right now, it’s actually worse.

 

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32 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Not sure why your topic is merged here considering that it has nothing to do with this thread, but I 100% agree with everything you said.

Yep, confused me too. And thanks!

32 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

The "new armor type that has to be destroyed in melee" is especially frustrating, after all the changes DE got about Nullifiers hard-countering snipers/bows. I honestly don't even know what they're thinking at this point-- this is literally the same problem as before, but with a different weapon category. And possibly worse this time, since they're going for "full immunity" rather than "very reduced effectiveness", apparently.

Absolutely. I have to wonder what their design hierarchy is like, because Warframe development seems to be full of the same mistakes over and over with the same painful and drawn-out process of patching them out.

Disruption isn't looking promising either. Hooray for yet more pseudo-cooperative tank-frame metas!

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Or simply return equip melee and allow players to rebind the swap to gun to another individual key that wouldnt interact with melee (such as reload).

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Honestly I would be a happy tenno if 3.0 stripped melee down and simplified it. Press E to unsheathe and swing, hold E to block. No more street fighter list of combos, consecutive hits on enemies advances the combo rather than blindly swinging while holding X. No more pointless energy channeling mechanic. No more combo counter that punishes players for using their other weapons.

I know people are suckers for this perfect input, galaxy brain, down, right, left, e, to unleash a strike that inflicts a 1000% damage slash proc, and also activates your devil trigger kind of 3.0, but christ think of the console players who are studying the game manual trying to figure this S#&$ out. Besides, parkour hurts my fingers enough already I don't need melee doing the same.

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