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Feedback and Idea's for Melee 3.0

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6 hours ago, xKobronicx said:

Honestly I would be a happy tenno if 3.0 stripped melee down and simplified it. Press E to unsheathe and swing, hold E to block. No more street fighter list of combos, consecutive hits on enemies advances the combo rather than blindly swinging while holding X. No more pointless energy channeling mechanic. No more combo counter that punishes players for using their other weapons.

I know people are suckers for this perfect input, galaxy brain, down, right, left, e, to unleash a strike that inflicts a 1000% damage slash proc, and also activates your devil trigger kind of 3.0, but christ think of the console players who are studying the game manual trying to figure this S#&$ out. Besides, parkour hurts my fingers enough already I don't need melee doing the same.

No, you take your current S#&$ty quickattack+ if you dont want to do complex keybinds (and for console, hold/trigger modifiers), but true melee needs to return and be improved with equip melee/never swapping back to gun unless you press tab/whatever keybind you put for the normal or gun swap, improved control over stance combos (keybinding them ourselves), charge attacks always attacking instead of failing if you dont just keep holding the button (as in actually charging an attack, possibly even with a sweet spot, instead of being a delayed attack), hell even proper directional swing recognition instead of the halfway measure currently in (looking up/down should actually do that next attacks swing with the cursor as its center of arc point instead of shift the hitcheck area slightly up/down).

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6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No, you take your current S#&$ty quickattack+ if you dont want to do complex keybinds (and for console, hold/trigger modifiers), but true melee needs to return and be improved with equip melee/never swapping back to gun unless you press tab/whatever keybind you put for the normal or gun swap, improved control over stance combos (keybinding them ourselves), charge attacks always attacking instead of failing if you dont just keep holding the button (as in actually charging an attack, possibly even with a sweet spot, instead of being a delayed attack), hell even proper directional swing recognition instead of the halfway measure currently in (looking up/down should actually do that next attacks swing with the cursor as its center of arc point instead of shift the hitcheck area slightly up/down).

I can agree with the whole hit detection and directional swing part, but lets be honest here aside from zenistar and glaives, how are charge attacks useful enough to warrent a buff? Iirc it was one of those features that was reintroduced because people kept asking for it, but now dont use, cause no one wants to sit there charging a kamehameha for 3 seconds when they can just keep swinging. It's just another dead feature like channeling. Which is why I say retain and improve upon the the combo chaining style of combat that makes melee iconic, and remove all the excess mechanics that overcomplicate the simple act of swinging a sword at a dude.

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1 hour ago, xKobronicx said:

I can agree with the whole hit detection and directional swing part, but lets be honest here aside from zenistar and glaives, how are charge attacks useful enough to warrent a buff? Iirc it was one of those features that was reintroduced because people kept asking for it, but now dont use, cause no one wants to sit there charging a kamehameha for 3 seconds when they can just keep swinging. It's just another dead feature like channeling. Which is why I say retain and improve upon the the combo chaining style of combat that makes melee iconic, and remove all the excess mechanics that overcomplicate the simple act of swinging a sword at a dude.

Charge attacks, channeling, and manual blocking were very useful mechanics that became very rewarding for those who chose to explore them. Charge attacks? Yes Glaives and the Zenistar are very well known melee weapons, but what about the heal from Sancti Magistar? Using the Augment mod for Silva and Aegis? There are other weapons as well that exploring beyond established metas will yield both useful and surprising results. For instance, since you mentioned channeling, channeling during a charge attack with the Sancti Magistar allows you to heal well beyond the 200 health per enemy hit cap. Manual blocking with the Silva and Aegis (using Guardian Derision) will allow you to build a very potent next charge attack.

The glaive category, and it's customization to user desire, is something I'd love to see implemented melee wide. I don't mean charge to throw your ninkondi at someone but more being able to use the weapon in different fashions. Most melee weapons after this change are just like before, only they behave at times without your input (auto blocking [sporadicly] or not holding the block resulting in the warframe getting staggered). The glaive can be setup for a great dual weilding setup, an up close and personal setup, or a great stealth bomber. No other melee class offers that. Increasing the versatility of melee classes and being able to customize it to cater to the players preferred styles of play should have been the focus of "Melee 3.0" (and it still might, we don't have the whole product yet) not make it what it is right now. Which boils down to two potential descriptions; 1.) something to do between reloads or 2.) Quick Melee 2.0. There is no longer any skill required in execution, resulting in less satisfaction in it's use. I primarily run melee only, but now my back up method using a critical maxed primary to boost my kubrow or kavats crit chance is now unusable as any time using the melee weapon, if I try to block, I end up aiming a weapon instead.  

As of right now for most content post change I only have 2 choices. I can continue to run melee only, with absolutely no other weapons, and lose out on playing a lot of this games content. Or I can go in mission with a full load out, embrace these changes, and accept that this game is a lot less fun than it used to be. I know this sounds bad, but for anyone that can remember when there was an endgame (Towers and Solar Rails) there wasn't a mission in this game that couldn't be played not using just melee. Raids? Don't fight, cheese your way through it. Sorties? Build and use what we tell you to. Eidolons and Orb Mothers? Meta builds or go home. I am very tired of "new and wonderful content" being released that pigeon holes you into specific approaches, and this? This is just another step in that direction. 

 

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4 hours ago, xKobronicx said:

I can agree with the whole hit detection and directional swing part, but lets be honest here aside from zenistar and glaives, how are charge attacks useful enough to warrent a buff? Iirc it was one of those features that was reintroduced because people kept asking for it, but now dont use, cause no one wants to sit there charging a kamehameha for 3 seconds when they can just keep swinging. It's just another dead feature like channeling. Which is why I say retain and improve upon the the combo chaining style of combat that makes melee iconic, and remove all the excess mechanics that overcomplicate the simple act of swinging a sword at a dude.

Because DE could easily turn them into this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbsF6rpbcP8 (be it in their current hold form or even a right click to charge/glide with while making half of weapons block values universal DR when on true melee/not quick attack+) just as channeling could easily go into DT+Exceed+Refuel timing super mode with its own 4 mod slots or something. Charge attacks are currently held back due to them both not actually being charge attacks as much as cast timed normal swings and due to how the input que works when it comes to "press and hold/charge attack combos in stances", but the charge attacks themselves as a interrupt/alt attack chain ender moves are practical to pull off (even if currently pointless, UNLESS changed to be actually worth and not terribly implemented/always go off with charge time itself just determining how big of a bonus you get, as with MGRR/Jetstream sam link) unlike pause and charge combos which entirely dont work with the pace of the game.

 

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5 hours ago, (XB1)DarwinsPlanB said:

Manual blocking with the Silva and Aegis (using Guardian Derision) will allow you to build a very potent next charge attack.

Just gonna say real quick, using charge attacks with either of the sword and board stances is an absolute nightmare. Both require you to attack once normally and hold the second hit, and final harbingers second attack will launch you a good distance making it next to impossible to land a charge attack unless you plan on hitting a far off enemy. And even then the charge attack itself will lurch you forward another 2 meters.

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because DE could easily turn them into this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbsF6rpbcP8 (be it in their current hold form or even a right click to charge/glide with while making half of weapons block values universal DR when on true melee/not quick attack+) just as channeling could easily go into DT+Exceed+Refuel timing super mode with its own 4 mod slots or something. Charge attacks are currently held back due to them both not actually being charge attacks as much as cast timed normal swings and due to how the input que works when it comes to "press and hold/charge attack combos in stances", but the charge attacks themselves as a interrupt/alt attack chain ender moves are practical to pull off (even if currently pointless, UNLESS changed to be actually worth and not terribly implemented/always go off with charge time itself just determining how big of a bonus you get, as with MGRR/Jetstream sam link) unlike pause and charge combos which entirely dont work with the pace of the game.

Holy crap I have seen the light. We need a heavy attack button in warframe like yesterday. I'm still on the fence about channeling/exceed but those MGRR mechanics in warframe sound delicious.

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7 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because DE could easily turn them into this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbsF6rpbcP8 (be it in their current hold form or even a right click to charge/glide with while making half of weapons block values universal DR when on true melee/not quick attack+) just as channeling could easily go into DT+Exceed+Refuel timing super mode with its own 4 mod slots or something. Charge attacks are currently held back due to them both not actually being charge attacks as much as cast timed normal swings and due to how the input que works when it comes to "press and hold/charge attack combos in stances", but the charge attacks themselves as a interrupt/alt attack chain ender moves are practical to pull off (even if currently pointless, UNLESS changed to be actually worth and not terribly implemented/always go off with charge time itself just determining how big of a bonus you get, as with MGRR/Jetstream sam link) unlike pause and charge combos which entirely dont work with the pace of the game.

That looks horrible. Those attacks take forever to come out and you're standing there dead still while this happens. Do that in Warframe and you'll be butchered by the other 8 things which are currently attacking you. Unless this damage resistance is 100%, you're going to die.

And even if you do get immunity while dancing around (such as with finishers now), that still gives you the same problem that finishers have: it takes control away from you. Being immobilised after half your strikes is even worse than what we have now. No way in hell do I want to get glued to some invisible spot in the air after or while hitting someone. I just want to slice the current enemy while moving straight on to the next one.

Don't forget that the only similarity between these two games is the third person viewpoint. The game you listed seems to be fighting one or two enemies at a time, then moving on to the next one in what looks to be some kind of linear story mission. Warframe, on the other hand, is fighting large numbers of enemies at once on missions that you're going to repeat again and again and again and again and again until the RNG finally gives up and submits out of pity. This is the entire reason why players have gravitated towards the most efficient forms of mass murder per unit time. The game gets in your way enough as it is, we don't need our weapons getting in the way as well.

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I personally do not agree with the suggestions, but perhaps more importantly, this thread's OP is one of the most well-written, well-furnished, and detailed posts I have seen on these forums. I very much like the illustrations, and I feel that the format presented sets a good example for other posts to follow, particularly as well with the paragraphing, bolding and color-coding to make the text easily parsable.

As for the core premise of the post, I think the critical issue is simply that melee attacking here would require two inputs, blocking then attacking, rather than a single one: on paper, this may not sound important, but in practice I think this would make melee feel much less fluid. For all its current issues, Melee 2.9 had the advantage of making the transition from melee to gunplay near-instantaneous and as simple as possible, and if it weren't for the unpleasantness of stances there would be many more players getting into melee, whereas previously the only time many players engaged in melee was by quick-meleeing, never by switching weapons. While the OP proposes a new quick-melee, that too would require an extra input, which I think may discourage certain players from using melee at all.

In this respect, I think the single biggest problem with the OP is that it doesn't really go into detail into explaining what is wrong with the current system: it mentions the changes to blocking and aim gliding, which I agree were both downgrades, but that doesn't really lead into the suggestion, so much as just make a lot of general statements that most people are familiar with. I can agree at least on the surface with the criticisms, but came to entirely different conclusions: in fact, from the way the criticisms were phrased, I initially expected the proposal to be simply to make blocking purely manual, and allow the player to aim-glide in melee, which I'd agree with, especially if it involved binding the block button to ADS. Because of this, while I think most of us can agree the current melee system isn't perfect, I'm not sure as many would necessarily agree with the model proposed in the OP, even though it has some of the best presentation I've ever seen in any post.

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