Fed up with the ability lock-outs.

[LordEcks]

A bit frustrated so I apologize if this comes off as a rant.

Just been really annoyed lately with the recent trend of enemy / encounter design.

This problem didn't start with the Eidolons, it goes back way before that.

 

At the core WarFrame's attraction is that it allows you to play characters that you enjoy.  You can choose the theme YOU like and pit it in life or death situations with varying objectives.

Defending something or something... assassinating waves of enemies... holding points or locations... or even taking on big bosses.

 

The reason I'm frustrated is because the trend of 'ignoring' WarFrame powers has gotten out of hand.  WarFrame abilities suddenly becoming null and unusable in fights is frustrating.

Laugh if you like but the frame I enjoy playing the most is Atlas, and I can't tell you how utterly frustrating it is to find the sheer number of enemies that cannot be targeted by Landslide.

This includes any and all the bosses, sub-bosses, and even some enemies that .. I don't consider bosses?

I cant punch the Wolf of Saturn Six, the Eidolons, the Exploiter or Profit Taker Orbs, the Stalker,  or a host of other baddies.

Hell I'm sitting in the Simularcrum right now unable to punch a Kyta Raknoid.....

 

I'm bringing this up because I'm hoping down the road this will change.   I know its hard to find the creativity to design enemies and encounters that are challenging despite how powerful many Tenno are, but straight up nullifying our abilities is just annoying and not fun. 

For me at least games like this are all about what your allowed to be/do in them.  The first thing I look at in an MMO (which I know this isn't one, but just for example) is the classes.  Sorcerer/Knight/Samurai/Thief etc.  What do they have, and what can they (allow me to) do?

 

The other hedge to it.. is that you allow other frames to use their abilities (or some of them) to full effect.

Why do Chroma/Mirage get to keep their 500%+ damage modifiers and his 1000%+ armor if I can't even punch it?

 

If you want to say a boss is immune to status effects, then fine.  Immune to critical hits.. fine, but my little rock punches being nullified while dragon boy gets to overcharge his railgun to 600% is BS.

 

So uhh.. yah.  If you guys could spare a little bit more time towards finding other solutions than simply nullifying all our abilities, that would be great.

Thanks.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

It is both annoying and inconsistent what abilities decide to work when.  What can target enemies, nullifier bubbles, get deactived by nullies etc. So Saryn can charge into a nully and not lose toxic lash. I 100% agree with OP. Except for "little" being applied to rock punches.  There is nothing little about that punch properly modded. 😂

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I just believe Limbo should never be pulled out of the Rift by enemies (Except Cataclysm bubbles).

[FlusteredFerret]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

This is thanks to those who seek challenge 😞 because it's the only way to provide it, by stripping off our abilities.. look at arbitrations.. I'd have way more fun if not every second enemy would be completely immune to my abilities.. v.v

I miss the old times where nullifying wasn't a thing.. why give warframes powers in the first place, when they're made useless..

I guess that was before players' gear and frames started getting ridiculously OP and people started complaining that there is no challenge in the game... 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I'm still salty on DE locking out Loki's switch teleport on the Corporus Long Hallway spy vault...in a game with Ivara and Limbo...Seriously?

[Loza03]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

This is thanks to those who seek challenge 😞 because it's the only way to provide it, by stripping off our abilities.. look at arbitrations.. I'd have way more fun if not every second enemy would be completely immune to my abilities.. v.v

I miss the old times where nullifying wasn't a thing.. why give warframes powers in the first place, when they're made useless..

You'd be hard pressed to find a good game that doesn't limit abilities to some degree at least. Warframe's options are just limited because 90% of the enemies were designed before most of the current abilities with massive range/damage/duration and whatnot, so they weren't designed to have any kind of passive resistances like most good action games do. And, yes, most good action games limit your abilities because that forces you to get creative and is what  stops things from becoming OP. Halo has enemies dodge grenades and take cover countering both your main attack options, Devil May Cry enemies can block or fly or hit you through your moves and even Mario's Hammer Brothers throw at an angle that's conveniently just the same as Mario's typical jump arc making your primary offensive option a problem.

You want less widespread ability nullification? Ask for better designed enemies so we don't NEED flat ability nullification anymore.

[The_Mustachio]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

I'm still salty on DE locking out Loki's switch teleport on the Corporus Long Hallway spy vault...in a game with Ivara and Limbo...Seriously?

Yep. I switched to team Limbo after that one. With operator invis, you just power run through spies now. 

[(XBOX)Scrub8247]

You are correct sir......u spend months if not a year or two building ur frames to be op'd and low and behold, u can't use most powers against bosses', in events, wolf, etc...U basically only get to use ur bad ass builds against the pee ons....grineer, corpus, infested.....but u cannot use them against the aforementioned......

I always wondered if anyone else noticed that......

It's a easy fix actually, it's just that DE is too lazy to do it........

Give all big bad guys a heck of a lot  more shields, health and powers.....

then we can use our powers all we want......

but don't hold ur breath, it's been this way since warframe came out......and DE is "NOT" gonna change it.....

Albeit, I wish it would..........

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

A bit frustrated so I apologize if this comes off as a rant.

Just been really annoyed lately with the recent trend of enemy / encounter design.

This problem didn't start with the Eidolons, it goes back way before that.

 

At the core WarFrame's attraction is that it allows you to play characters that you enjoy.  You can choose the theme YOU like and pit it in life or death situations with varying objectives.

Defending something or something... assassinating waves of enemies... holding points or locations... or even taking on big bosses.

 

The reason I'm frustrated is because the trend of 'ignoring' WarFrame powers has gotten out of hand.  WarFrame abilities suddenly becoming null and unusable in fights is frustrating.

Laugh if you like but the frame I enjoy playing the most is Atlas, and I can't tell you how utterly frustrating it is to find the sheer number of enemies that cannot be targeted by Landslide.

This includes any and all the bosses, sub-bosses, and even some enemies that .. I don't consider bosses?

I cant punch the Wolf of Saturn Six, the Eidolons, the Exploiter or Profit Taker Orbs, the Stalker,  or a host of other baddies.

Hell I'm sitting in the Simularcrum right now unable to punch a Kyta Raknoid.....

 

I'm bringing this up because I'm hoping down the road this will change.   I know its hard to find the creativity to design enemies and encounters that are challenging despite how powerful many Tenno are, but straight up nullifying our abilities is just annoying and not fun. 

For me at least games like this are all about what your allowed to be/do in them.  The first thing I look at in an MMO (which I know this isn't one, but just for example) is the classes.  Sorcerer/Knight/Samurai/Thief etc.  What do they have, and what can they (allow me to) do?

 

The other hedge to it.. is that you allow other frames to use their abilities (or some of them) to full effect.

Why do Chroma/Mirage get to keep their 500%+ damage modifiers and his 1000%+ armor if I can't even punch it?

 

If you want to say a boss is immune to status effects, then fine.  Immune to critical hits.. fine, but my little rock punches being nullified while dragon boy gets to overcharge his railgun to 600% is BS.

 

So uhh.. yah.  If you guys could spare a little bit more time towards finding other solutions than simply nullifying all our abilities, that would be great.

Thanks.

Firstly its Warframe and Warframes.

Secondly, get used to it.

[LordEcks]

4 hours ago, (XB1)RevenantRequiem said:

Firstly its Warframe and Warframes.

Secondly, get used to it.

I am used to it.  For over 3 years now.  My problem is I don't like it and hope that it will change for the better.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

10 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

I'm still salty on DE locking out Loki's switch teleport on the Corporus Long Hallway spy vault...in a game with Ivara and Limbo...Seriously?

It's not locked out, you just have to aim it a bit differently now.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

IMO an easier solution (not foolproof though) would be to make all enemies affected by abilities, but make "tough" enemies less affected. for example, Kyta Raknoids, which are currently immune to many powers, can be hit by abilities, but the duration they are affected is halved, and they have to be much closer to be affected. the strength of the ability effect can also be halved: essentially, there would be diminishing returns for those who try to spam CC, but those who just need to lock an enemy down the once to heal or escape get a brief window to do so.

Nullifiers could also be changed so that if they are within an Abilities AoE, their bubble starts to shrink, until eventually disappearing and making them vulnerable. give players the freedom to spam abilities if they want, but don't make it a valid strategy in the long run, at least not with Minibosses and other significant enemies.

[GoatPimp]

Dude I totally agree. The inconsistency is ridiculous with the Wolf. It's kind of okay if they resist every ability, but making usable abilities a guessing game is ridiculous. On boss design? The exploiter tipped me over. You barely have to use abilities or weapons, you just swing stuff at the target like a monkey. 

[JackHargreav]

As dumb as it is.

Ability nullification is not that bad. I mean you can adapt to it pretty easily. 

Usually not many enemies can nullify your abilities anyway. And the ones that do are kinda weak. Even an ancient, nullifier, bombard combo is kinda easy to deal with.

As long as you're not a frame that doesn't have Dr or Invisibilty, sure. But we have a bunch of frames that have.

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, JackHargreav said:

As long as you're not a frame that doesn't have Dr or Invisibilty, sure. But we have a bunch of frames that have.

And that right there is the root of the problem. It's basically demanding that people take either frames which are naturally tanky and don't even need abilities to survive, or who can stay aside out of sight.

This does not help CC or team buffing frames such as Vauban, Nyx or (at least when not using quake) Banshee. It also doesn't do any good for squishy damage caster frames like Ember or Nova (or Banshee). I, for instance, love Nyx - though she was more fun when her #2 did damage. I miss my Itano Circus.

Getting enemies to fight each other (or just your own deployables) is one of the things I've loved most in videogames. But it's not very effective against most Corpus, and completely useless if on the Venus open world with a high alert level because there's just so much nullicancer spam out there.

Fighting a boss shouldn't be just standing there, puffing up your mighty chromatic chest and standing there slugging it out with them directly trading blow for blow. It should be a perfectly viable strategy to go into the boss room and turn all their minions against them.

[Marine027]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb DoomFruit:

And that right there is the root of the problem. It's basically demanding that people take either frames which are naturally tanky and don't even need abilities to survive, or who can stay aside out of sight.

This does not help CC or team buffing frames such as Vauban, Nyx or (at least when not using quake) Banshee. It also doesn't do any good for squishy damage caster frames like Ember or Nova (or Banshee). I, for instance, love Nyx - though she was more fun when her #2 did damage. I miss my Itano Circus.

Getting enemies to fight each other (or just your own deployables) is one of the things I've loved most in videogames. But it's not very effective against most Corpus, and completely useless if on the Venus open world with a high alert level because there's just so much nullicancer spam out there.

Fighting a boss shouldn't be just standing there, puffing up your mighty chromatic chest and standing there slugging it out with them directly trading blow for blow. It should be a perfectly viable strategy to go into the boss room and turn all their minions against them.

That is the main problem i have with most bosses aswell lately, Wolf, tanky as much possible but a squishy frame will die on him and his adds fast due well abilitys mostly not work on him.

Same goes for Eidolons, Orbiters, etc. For those you can atleast prepare but most fights seem ot go the Chroma way with a strong weapon like Rubico, making the rest of your Arsenal basically not existent.

I love Warframe for its variety and of course older weapons will be overshadowed by newer ones, but should not be rendered useless and others should not be mandatory, they should at best give an advantage for beeing prepared, but game desing wise most enemys are eather a joke to certain setups or barely get scratched at all by certain weapons.

Wolf again is weak to radiation, yet things like a Archwign weapon modded for purely radiation won't scratch him as much still due samlle dps instead of pure direct damage, its such a heavy inbalance on such that it is not funny anymore, especially if the warframe itself becomes uselss due abiltiy immunity.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Marine027

[JackHargreav]

16 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

And that right there is the root of the problem. It's basically demanding that people take either frames which are naturally tanky and don't even need abilities to survive, or who can stay aside out of sight.

This does not help CC or team buffing frames such as Vauban, Nyx or (at least when not using quake) Banshee. It also doesn't do any good for squishy damage caster frames like Ember or Nova (or Banshee). I, for instance, love Nyx - though she was more fun when her #2 did damage. I miss my Itano Circus.

Getting enemies to fight each other (or just your own deployables) is one of the things I've loved most in videogames. But it's not very effective against most Corpus, and completely useless if on the Venus open world with a high alert level because there's just so much nullicancer spam out there.

Fighting a boss shouldn't be just standing there, puffing up your mighty chromatic chest and standing there slugging it out with them directly trading blow for blow. It should be a perfectly viable strategy to go into the boss room and turn all their minions against them.

Well... Yeah.I can see that being a problem. If we are talking about frames like Vauban or Titania.

Nyx? She's just fine. Sure you need an augment to make her tanky but that isn't that big of a deal. I used her many times against all factions and her 3rd is still good. Not as good as it once was maybe, but it's still usable. I don't use her only because I got bored of her. Currently I'm saving plat for that sweet Deluxe skin.

[Yamazuki]

2 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

As dumb as it is.

Ability nullification is not that bad. I mean you can adapt to it pretty easily. 

Usually not many enemies can nullify your abilities anyway. And the ones that do are kinda weak. Even an ancient, nullifier, bombard combo is kinda easy to deal with.

As long as you're not a frame that doesn't have Dr or Invisibilty, sure. But we have a bunch of frames that have.

Even if nullification isn't that bad and is easy to deal with, what is the point in keeping an easy to deal with mechanic that just upsets people? Weapons have serious balance issues, before even factoring Warfame abilities, but most mechanics are just anti-abilities.

[JackHargreav]

7 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Even if nullification isn't that bad and is easy to deal with, what is the point in keeping an easy to deal with mechanic that just upsets people? Weapons have serious balance issues, before even factoring Warfame abilities, but most mechanics are just anti-abilities.

Eh... It changes up gameplay a little bit. And it changes a lot when you have to deal with 3 nullys. But don't get me wrong. It really makes me sad that some of the frames become almost useless on higher levels or against certain factions. Titania is is an absolute favorite of mine and It really hurts to see her in her current state. She could be so much more if nullification wouldn't be a thing.

But my main is Zephyr so I can kinda ignore this problem.

[Lost_Cartographer]

DE will have to continue resorting to ability immunity/lock out until we all come to terms with the fact that they'll have to remove energy pizzas, Zenurich's energy bubble, etc. etc. or just slap cool downs onto every power before they can begin to balance encounters with ability use in mind.  Right now, our energy economy doesn't exist - it's so easy to get that blue orbs are effectively a tired old joke from a literally darker time.  Then we have mods, which take powers that are roughly balanced around their base stats... and then we bloat them to a very brokenly OP state. 

So we can spam, spam, and spam and lock down way larger areas for much longer time frames than we're meant to.  Ergo, we could easily lock down bosses and adds from start to finish, which is obviously very bad design.

 

Basically, if you want to be able to use powers during boss fights, you're going to have to give up a lot to make them far less readily available first.  Otherwise invulnerability/lock out is the only practical response to give the enemy a chance to do... uh... anything, really.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[Marine027]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Lost_Cartographer:

DE will have to continue resorting to ability immunity/lock out until we all come to terms with the fact that they'll have to remove energy pizzas, Zenurich's energy bubble, etc. etc. or just slap cool downs onto every power before they can begin to balance encounters with ability use in mind.  Right now, our energy economy doesn't exist - it's so easy to get that blue orbs are effectively a tired old joke from a literally darker time.  Then we have mods, which take powers that are roughly balanced around their base stats... and then we bloat them to a very brokenly OP state. 

So we can spam, spam, and spam and lock down way larger areas for much longer time frames than we're meant to.  Ergo, we could easily lock down bosses and adds from start to finish, which is obviously very bad design.

 

Basically, if you want to be able to use powers during boss fights, you're going to have to give up a lot to make them far less readily available first.  Otherwise invulnerability/lock out is the only practical response to give the enemy a chance to do... uh... anything, really.

It is odd ot compare but in Guild Wars 2 as example CC are often used to break a CC bar on a enemy that causes a stun and damage reduciton, CC strength makes the bar break faster etc.

Maybe something like this would be simply good for bosses, still immune to CC itself but able to for CC frames to profit from it, or at best/worse make them liek conclave and DE has to think fo ways that different CC's work differently on such bosses which i doubt would happen.

I personaly like CC in any game same for Dots, but alot of games shown simply that such things "take to long" for people and they want thigns done, which i can agree on also, but here it slowly feels like they given up on most CC frames.

Personaly i know it would limit frames but most frame should have a basic build form now on, one attack, one cc, one self buff/damage reduction, etc. I am against such really personalyl but only thing i can think of becasuse squishy frames have defintly problems ot survive and need something as counter, at best give us weapons that act like shields maybe to counter such, buff/nerf the weapon depending on the warframe wealding them like the signatur weapons do now.

Of course that would mean saying what frame fits what role, like tank, support, etc. which i also not really would like but only thing i can think of for now.

[ThumpumGood]

Actually, I kind of like it. It gives me incentive to maximize my weapons. And incentivizes people to take at least one good weapon when they're leveling. I dont mind carrying, but having to carry a bunch of people that are leveling everything? It's why my abort list is so high.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

22 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

It is both annoying and inconsistent what abilities decide to work when.  What can target enemies, nullifier bubbles, get deactived by nullies etc. So Saryn can charge into a nully and not lose toxic lash. I 100% agree with OP. Except for "little" being applied to rock punches.  There is nothing little about that punch properly modded. 😂

Cough arbitrations cough cough

[Awazx]

This thread reminds me of 1 of the reasons why I stopped playing Warframe.

[LordEcks]

Exactly my point.

Its called warframe until you meet whatever boss  or mob they deem your warframe powers inconvenient towards.

They should change the slogan from Ninjas play free

to "Chroma plays freely"