Warframe 'Skill' Tree. How it could be done.

[TheJagji]

Someone posted an idea on one of the Facebook pages I am on, to add skill trees to Warframes... I think this is something that could be done.

So, how would this work?

1. Augment mods would be removed from the game.
2. Augment mod effects would be moved to the skill tree.
3. On forming a Warframe, you would unlock the Augment Tire.
4. There would be 4 Augment tears for each frame, related to each of the Frames abilities.

So, for example, you Forma Exel once, and you would have access to the Surging Dash Augment power. The second form would give you access to Radiant Finish and so on.  Augment powers would gain power in the same way as Warframe abilities, e.g. scale with the level of the Frame and gain a level up ever so many levels.

In cases where Warframes have multiple augments per ability, you would be able to pick which one you have active per ability. So you would not be able to have 2 different augments running on one ability.

In REALLY spectral cases where the frame has Argument mods for PvP (Valkyr), the Augment would not need a Forma, because its PvP so who cares. 😛

Anyway, what do people think of this? Would you be on board for moving Augments to a 'skill tree'? Or something else?

TheJagji.

EDIT: Should have said this initially, but all this would do is make Augments built into warframes rather than be a mod. Nothing to do with stats would change or be affected, it would simply be a way to do have Augments no longer be a mod. Maybe the skill tree is not the best name for it, but it is the initial thing on FB that kicked off my thinking, so...

Edited May 2, 2019 by TheJagji

[Chewarette]

I'd largely prefer having another slot on Warframes, even at no cost, to fit the Augments in, instead of adding another window/sub-menu just for this specific thing.

At least, it would keep the possibility to have two Augments active (one free + one slotted as regular mod), your solution basically kills two-Augment-builds (mainly Nekros, but some Valkyrs also use 2).

Edited May 2, 2019 by Chewarette

[TheJagji]

Just now, Chewarette said:

I'd largely prefer having another slot on Warframes, even at no cost, to fit the Augments in, instead of adding another window/sub-menu just for this specific thing.

I don't think you would need another menu. It could easily be in the 'abilities' section that no one looks at. 😛

[Ced23Ric]

1 minute ago, Chewarette said:

I'd largely prefer having another slot on Warframes, even at no cost, to fit the Augments in, instead of adding another window/sub-menu just for this specific thing.

Absolutely agree here. An Augment slot - with an augment unlocker like the Exilus, if you wanna be cheeky - would be much preferred to yet another subsystem.

[TheJagji]

3 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

Absolutely agree here. An Augment slot - with an augment unlocker like the Exilus, if you wanna be cheeky - would be much preferred to yet another subsystem.

I do get that, but I also don't want to see Warframe's have a 2 or 3 slots locked behind what new players will see as a paywall. 1 is enough.

Edited May 2, 2019 by TheJagji

[sleepychewbacca]

4 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

Absolutely agree here. An Augment slot - with an augment unlocker like the Exilus, if you wanna be cheeky - would be much preferred to yet another subsystem.

Jumping in on this. 

Subsystems would only go as far as to add more confusion for newcomers.

The game already has a questionable new player experience, adding in subsystems would just add on to the horror of seeing the mod screen for the first time. 

Augment Slots would be imo a much better preference. 

[DrBorris]

But... but why? The last thing we need is more vertical progression, augments are meant to be trade-offs.

If you want to enhance one ability, you have to sacrifice something from your build. If an augment is never worth the slot than it is just a bad augment that should be buffed/reworked. If an augment is "mandatory" then the base ability should be buffed/reworked or maybe nerf the augment, but I can't think of any current examples that would warrant this.

 

I think that making all Augments Exilus is an interesting conversation to have, even possibly add a second Exilus slot, but there needs to be some trade-off when you equip an Augment.

Edited May 2, 2019 by DrBorris

[Firetempest]

Before update 6 we had skill trees to level up. Then they brought back a type of tree for operators. Do we really need to drown in overlapping systems.

[Ced23Ric]

1 minute ago, DrBorris said:

... even possibly add a second Exilus slot, but there needs to be some trade-off when you equip an Augment.

Most of my builds are already tight as a tiger, squeezing in an augment on top of that would require at least one Umbral Forma per frame that only uses one, and two on frames with triple Umbral mods.

1 minute ago, Firetempest said:

Before update 6 we had skill trees to level up. Then they brought back a type of tree for operators. Do we really need to drown in overlapping systems.

The good old days, where every frame had a "skill tree", but rank 30 unlocked everything. Or when it was a skill tree, but no one unlocked anything but the mod slots, because mod slots were better than anything else, because stacking +Shield led to five digit shields because DE coded their shields recursively multiplicative instead of additive. 😄

[DrBorris]

1 minute ago, Ced23Ric said:

Most of my builds are already tight as a tiger, squeezing in an augment on top of that would require at least one Umbral Forma per frame that only uses one, and two on frames with triple Umbral mods.

So you would not be able to cookie-cutter your builds together? Make mod capacity an actual limiter? Maybe even have full Umbral/Primed builds not be the end-all-be all?

 

Sounds like it could add some new spice to Warframe modding if you ask me.

[Ced23Ric]

2 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

So you would not be able to cookie-cutter your builds together? Make mod capacity an actual limiter? Maybe even have full Umbral/Primed builds not be the end-all-be all?

Yeah, that's why I said - it'd require ridiculous investment and work to fit an augment on top of the existing build. You asked for a trade-off. Breaking my back of making parts fit is a trade-off. Augur Message over Constitution. Augur Reach over Stretch. Augur Secrets over Transient Fortitude. Etc. pp. And committing two Umbral Forma to a single frame is quite the commitment, don'tcha think?

[ChaoticEdge]

🤔....well I can't say it is wrong and I can say its neither right for the fact.  The reason why I say its neither is because it depends on the skills on the frame being reset and the changes it will become I mean mods slots vs skill tree is a very different thing and base on a setting which we are looking at like RPG traditional set vs Modified chose a selection of mods which this is going cause issue over the game which the game has to reset its balance then we have BIG ISSUE which everyone is going grind up lvl in onslaught like no life and if we go with the bs idea what the skill tree "request" like for example  requires to kill these type enemies in large amount and kill a bird only using bullet jump which it would bring stupidness.

Skills have issue balance with the game vs mods when you work up all the upgrade into the mods, which we are looking at entire changes and rebalancing because using as example rhino and if he has no mods but skills tree for it would be unbalanced for him because there are mods are set in terms that he need plays a role and setting it by levels is going be you are looking at massive leveling if we go with skill trees I mean depending level it has no bound for it could be it seems but if we limited the cap of level then it would be still useless I mean rhino could have stomp because the level skill tree could of have brought him all the way for example 150 which using the gadget the specter they are really more powerful than the enemies and bosses in the game I mean still able 1 shot kill depending on the weapons and mods which changes on level to rebalance and the rhino could of have 600% radius stomp and have 300% strength which level would trash the game, even thou you cap it, it would make skill tree become useless because the balance of the skill tree has to go though every time for new bosses, new enemies, and how the game work on pvp.  As the mods, it is set for balance and they have their own unique skill tree sets which that is a smart idea from the dev putting such thing because it is unique because the mods make it sets to be unique and useful when it is full it uses which players could go with full sets or not for there is still the same depending role they will do or either do it solo which it is good for players who want to solo in the game.

There is always will be an issue for the game even thou you may take it to leveling system like traditional RPG games because of lvl guns vs Riven mods which they also have to be put into leveling and everyone is probably going use the lato and make it all mighty and powerful to do it $##! and giggles to simple beat a high-level player making them thinking this pistol won't do any jack until they start screaming getting shot by the weakest gun in the game which also causes an issue for this game even more.  Then we have to level up the all the weapons including the melee and the one we made which it will be annoying leveling the weapons up every time which sort of remind me of a manga book which we are avoiding the bs of that anime because there is no point getting more powerful than other players and just simple blast them all within 1 shot which finds it more stupid then before for I would like hit the avoid button there.

There will be massive problem in the game if skill tree is set in warframe for that I can see it if there is a game like warframe with the skill tree then it would be compared for warframe will be ok going in full on ok skill tree vs mods but I don't think warframe is need set on skill tree on the frame, more likely I prefer the operator base their skill tree more instead, I mean operator run time it would be nice and at least give us melee weapons or able to make void weapons for the operator can use.

[Chewarette]

52 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

Most of my builds are already tight as a tiger, squeezing in an augment on top of that would require at least one Umbral Forma per frame that only uses one, and two on frames with triple Umbral mods.

I'm kinda expecting that DE changes all items to go to level 40 when we'll surpass MR30, I have a feeling the Paracesis is a beta-test in this direction

[ismellpestilence]

Something tells me you played Albion.

[Ced23Ric]

7 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

I'm kinda expecting that DE changes all items to go to level 40 when we'll surpass MR30, I have a feeling the Paracesis is a beta-test in this direction

If they apply additional ranks like the Parenthesis did, I'll be right fine. 😄

That being said, MR30 is ways away. MR28 alone is 120k out - that's, what, 5 frames and 30 weapons?

Now I just gotta find out how I managed to get this:

... despite having all items maxed.

[0_The_F00l]

Original topic :

Skill tree 

Opinion :

wouldn't mind it, assuming it will directly affect the base stats of the frame so the mods then use the new base stats for all calculations. 

My inner min maxer is giddy with excitement thinking about it. 

Basically: 

With every level you gain stat points (will just add health / shield / energy / speed depending on how much you wanna invest in that attribute ) , 

After 10 levels you get 10 specialization points, these will act like the equivalent of corrupt mods. 

You can change your base duration/ efficiency/ range / strength.

But it must always add up to 400%. 

Since you can only do this 3 times the lowest you can get any one stat is 70 and the highest you can get any one stat is 130.

And the mods are now based on the new stats. 

Might not seem like much, but I can just imagine the customizations you can do.

Augments are locked behind certain branches (multiple ways to get to it but still needs some thought behind it for optimization) 

Using a forma will reset the tree. 

Branched topic:

Augment mod slot

Opinion:

This would be nice too and is more likely to be implemented than an actually fun to design and highly customizable skill tree system. 

 

[Lost_Cartographer]

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

But... but why? The last thing we need is more vertical progression, augments are meant to be trade-offs.

If you want to enhance one ability, you have to sacrifice something from your build. If an augment is never worth the slot than it is just a bad augment that should be buffed/reworked. If an augment is "mandatory" then the base ability should be buffed/reworked or maybe nerf the augment, but I can't think of any current examples that would warrant this.

 

I think that making all Augments Exilus is an interesting conversation to have, even possibly add a second Exilus slot, but there needs to be some trade-off when you equip an Augment.

Ideally, all abilities in the game would have at least 2 augments to choose between, so base abilities are more the default and augments are personal flavor on top of that.

And any power increase from augments is highly variable from ability to ability.

Finally, vertical progression at this point in the game isn't going to do any more damage.  Either DE overhauls scaling on both sides of the equation or they might as well embrace the power creep and make the game easier and easier for people that just can't get the mechanical skill or technical know-how to run things like Elite Sanctuary Onslaught without being OP as f#$%.  Hanging out in balance limbo thinking there's still some sense of balance to save is entirely ignoring that the train has long been derailed.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[MagPrime]

I'd rather not be stuck picking skills I don't want just to get to ones I do.  

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, MagPrime said:

I'd rather not be stuck picking skills I don't want just to get to ones I do.  

*has flashbacks of FF xii*

[Aesthier]

I am just not feeling it. I have played a lot of games that regulated me to skill trees and I don't play those games anymore because I grew very tired of it.

Warframe allows me the build diversity I enjoy through MODs. Operators focus is essentially skill-tree based which is probably why I don't spend more time chasing that area of the game.

I get that augments don't feel exactly right but as others have said :

7 hours ago, DrBorris said:

But... but why? The last thing we need is more vertical progression, augments are meant to be trade-offs.

If you want to enhance one ability, you have to sacrifice something from your build. If an augment is never worth the slot than it is just a bad augment that should be buffed/reworked. If an augment is "mandatory" then the base ability should be buffed/reworked or maybe nerf the augment, but I can't think of any current examples that would warrant this.

 

I think that making all Augments Exilus is an interesting conversation to have, even possibly add a second Exilus slot, but there needs to be some trade-off when you equip an Augment.

1

 I agree that there should be a trade-off for augments and right now that means a person has to decide which mod to remove that has the least effect on their gameplay. 

I also disagree with the idea of throwing out augment mods just because they are unbalanced at the moment. Currently, some warframes have 4 augments while others don't and the only balance is that to place an augment one must get rid of a mod. Could this work much later once all warframes have at least 4 mods each and there is some relative balance between them? Sure but until that point, this just appears to be a situation of some individuals wanting all the benefits with no trade-offs. 

I do have a lot of respect for the amount of time the original person took in researching and attempting to find a balance to their proposal and I do think it has merit with those that would enjoy it.

However, for me, I just don't want anything to do with skill trees limiting the creativity I can currently enjoy. Because limiting build creativity is what skill trees do regardless of how slick the presenter can make it sound.

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Aesthier

[White_Matter]

100%

We have limited mod capacity and augment mods for the most part are too trash to waste a mod slot for.

I think redundant mods like movespeed, etc should all be moved to a skill tree which should have a couple of branches that allows you to build varieties of the same frame. A skill tree that has augments not only abilities but also passives like + HP(so you'll have to install a HP mod to be able to benefit from that skill).

The mod mechanic is dying, there is no build variety anymore. A complex skill tree might give us that variety back and get rid of the redundant mods. Two birds with one stone.

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by White_Matter

[mrt3ntacles]

We have been here before, and it wasn't good

[Alaeacus]

I don't really think there is a need for skill trees.  Frames are incredibly overpowered as it is, there is very little content that provides challenge for even the mid-level gamers.  Endgame players essentially just push one button to clear tilesets.  Unless they make truly challenging content, or provide a real reason we need a skill tree power creep, I think it is just a waste of time.  More busy-work for very minor payoff.  

[TheJagji]

13 hours ago, White_Matter said:

100%

We have limited mod capacity and augment mods for the most part are too trash to waste a mod slot for.

I think redundant mods like movespeed, etc should all be moved to a skill tree which should have a couple of branches that allows you to build varieties of the same frame. A skill tree that has augments not only abilities but also passives like + HP(so you'll have to install a HP mod to be able to benefit from that skill).

The mod mechanic is dying, there is no build variety anymore. A complex skill tree might give us that variety back and get rid of the redundant mods. Two birds with one stone.

 

I would not say that the Mod Mechanics are doing, but they do need a re-work. Its the only part of the game that has not been looked over I think, and if they really want to do damage 3.0, then maybe Mods 2.0 should be part of it. What they would change and do is the real question.

[ChaoticEdge]

21 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Original topic :

Skill tree 

Opinion :

wouldn't mind it, assuming it will directly affect the base stats of the frame so the mods then use the new base stats for all calculations. 

My inner min maxer is giddy with excitement thinking about it. 

Basically: 

With every level you gain stat points (will just add health / shield / energy / speed depending on how much you wanna invest in that attribute ) , 

After 10 levels you get 10 specialization points, these will act like the equivalent of corrupt mods. 

You can change your base duration/ efficiency/ range / strength.

But it must always add up to 400%. 

Since you can only do this 3 times the lowest you can get any one stat is 70 and the highest you can get any one stat is 130.

And the mods are now based on the new stats. 

Might not seem like much, but I can just imagine the customizations you can do.

Augments are locked behind certain branches (multiple ways to get to it but still needs some thought behind it for optimization) 

Using a forma will reset the tree. 

Branched topic:

Augment mod slot

Opinion:

This would be nice too and is more likely to be implemented than an actually fun to design and highly customizable skill tree system. 

 

from reading that for what I realized, I think its best way ruin warframe more that way because you know how strong the players can get right? >.> (Onslaught's door) I think I hit avoid button right there.  I mean what is lvl cap for the frame and if we limited by 100 it wouldn't be enough and if we reached over at 150 lvl, everyone is going focus "Abilities" for example rhino of his iron skin, roar and stomp and if he focus on "Strength Stats full on without a cap" imagine he is doing 600% in strength and no one will say anything about that because you just kill everything then again we going have issue with the "Gun Level" then tree branch skills for that as well then everyone is going put massive focus on a gun to have super high dmg stats instead of fast reloading for Lato is going look like you just walk out with "John Wick's pistol gun" and special guns will be pointless and everyone would just level up shotgun as well and wouldn't care just go for dmg including the sniper rifle is going go full on dmg.

 

I think we shouldn't  add skill tree because we don't want break the game any further and make the game more boring with stats and lvl of overpowering and overflowing millions of Mag's class because if anyone remembers the "Pull" abilities and now imagine her debuff just went back to where it was overpowered again. Yea I think it would be jerk move if we do that again