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Ember is the new Mag, and that's unacceptable

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Haven requires line of sight and actively reduces Hildryn's survival resource (her massive shields) per target affected. It's not even close to the same.

I'll stop saying that Ember is fine when people actually prove me wrong. This same mentality centered around Mag and pre-rework Oberon and all they've gotten were changes that helped them, in the end. A frame is more than one power.

On lower levels, Hildryn is near immortal... Even with her shields constantly draining. Yes, with an incorrect build then maybe so. I'm talking about lower levels here. And unlike the old Ember, like you said, Hildryn relies on shields, she has no energy what so ever. Meaning once her shields are back up, which mine go up near instantly, all I need to do is press it again, and continue. Ember still had to worry about energy consumption.

I am aware there's more to a Warframe than one ability. But here's the thing, when you got a Warframe that only has one good ability, there's no point in using the others. THAT was the problem with Ember, and still is since now almost all her abilities are now easily replaceable with other frames. Instead of actually taking the time to rework her, they just threw her into the trash and gave it to the players.

Her Fireball can be good for lower levels at defending doorways, but that's really it. Most charge abilities suck anyway, since most of the time either your team would've killed them already or you just in general could've brought a better Warframe. Why defend one doorway when you could've just brought Equinox and defended ALL doorways with Maim activated while you sit there and Pendulum Narta?

Accelerant is by far her best ability, simply because of both good crowd control and it increases the damage of anything fire, of course the most popular being the Ignis. And on the plus side it'll increase that charge up time of Fireball... Woop-de-fricken' do. This is just by far the most complete ability in her kit.

Why even waste your energy on Fire Blast? It'll do nothing but knock the enemy down, unless it's low level. And give me a break, adding a fire proc for people around the ring is a joke. It's the weakest element in the game. And why use is for crowd control when Accelerant costs less energy and Fire Quake exists?

World on Fire... Still somewhat relevant for lower levels and useless on higher levels. And as I keep saying, there are just so many better options. The only thing it could possibly be useful for is knocking down enemies with Fire Quake.

Anyway, here are the problems with her:

  • She had no team support at all, besides maybe Accelerant if your team has some fire based weapons
  • She's naturally squishy, so bringing her to per say an Arbitration is a death wish.
  • There are too many better options, similar to why the Itzal is superior to all the other Archwings.
  • Along with the squishyness, she has no abilities that in general have help with her survivability. Your movement is your only hope... Unless you have a support on your team.

And as I said too many times, too many Warframes do all or focus on one of the problems she has, their abilities are in general a million times better. If you're in a squad as Ember, you were better off being a Trinity or another support role. Because. She. Sucks. At. Everything. (Besides maybe crowd control, but look at Vauban, his kit is pure crowd control and don't even get me started about how much he sucks.)

So there, you want proof, there you go.

Ember can be so much more, but DE doesn't care a single bit.

TL:DR

Ember is irrelevant to the current state of Warframe.

 

Edited by --CV--Father_Nox
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I take Ember into most high level content just fine (arbis, sorties, kuva floods, eso, etc). 

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4 hours ago, schilds said:

I take Ember into most high level content just fine (arbis, sorties, kuva floods, eso, etc). 

Same no issues with her, except i would make her 4 cast onehanded, would be great QoL. Her passive is useless pretty much and her fireball i never use. Except that i think shes very "playable".

Working on second "tank" ember which will be melee focused (WoF/accelerant aug and gram prime blender) and should facetank even sortie mobs if needed. 

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On 2019-05-12 at 8:51 AM, Chipputer said:

Haven requires line of sight and actively reduces Hildryn's survival resource (her massive shields) per target affected. It's not even close to the same.

I'll stop saying that Ember is fine when people actually prove me wrong. This same mentality centered around Mag and pre-rework Oberon and all they've gotten were changes that helped them, in the end. A frame is more than one power.

Because of some reasons:

First, there are many superior choices. Octavia does all she does(that have a damage dealing aura), have larger range, and also buffs herself and the others. Equinox can do better than Ember as well, and she also have nova(by expend Maim) and the other stuffs that buffs or debuffs the enemy. Only for the trait that have the damage dealing aura, they are simply better for they have much larger area and doesn't needs stupid restrictions.

Not to mention about the other many warframes with area DD abilities.

Also, there are some warframes that stalls nearby enemy automatically, such as Octavia and Equinox as above, and Banshee.

And I bet that you know Ember is not even a good warframe on the low level extermination as well, opposite with the bias against her. Although she can does something, but the problem lies on WoF makes her not so good at it as well. You need Overextended for the stuff for now too.

 

Yes, we don't always required to choose the best possible option, for this is PvE game and we can play the game with some inferior stuffs. But, is she fun enough to pick? I don't think so. Her playstyle is also annoying as well.

Passive... well, passives on almost all warframes are sucks and you better forget about it, so pass. Although it is a flaw of her, but she is not the only frame that suffers the same problem either.

Fireball is good on the paper, but that's all. Actually its effect is quite good, but the problem is its ridiculously slow charge time that prevents to use it on the real games. Even with Natural Talent its charge time is too slow, but it requires to fully charged to be usable. It is very hard to use it, move and also shoot in the same time.

Accelerant is always good, but only if there are usable abilities to support. Since the other abilities on her are unusable, I don't think that Accelerant can turn the tide by its own.

Fire Blast... hell, that is no more than a joke. Not a damage dealing ability, and it gives a negligible buff.

World on Fire is unusable for now, really. If you really want to use it, you end up with either of situations:

-If you let the enemy within its short about 10m range, Ember is easily bleeded.

-If you prevent the situation above and keep recast it on each 6 to 8 seconds, you can't do anything but move and recast WoF so you better pick the other warframes and simply cast area DD abilities and get the better result and it is far easier.

You know, Ember is a squish frame. Her defensive stat is terrible. But she needs to be stay near of the enemy. But, before the nerf at least she have good chances to use it, for the range around 20m means she can cause fire on the enemy first and have some time to shoot it or make the melee attack while the enemy is stalled. However, the range is cut to a half for now, and its delayed blast mechanism is still unchanged, so the enemy will attack first before you set the enemy fire at least once.

Don't get me wrong - it is natural that put the full defensive mods when use Ember. But even for that, it is not enough to save her life on the real games.

If World on Fire is on Rhino or Inaros, they will make use of it well. But not Ember. She lacks the kit for the survival at all. All she can have is some petty crowd controls, but it is nothing special on warframes.

 

Anyway, I think that Ember is only competitive with weapons, not warframes. You can mimic Fireball by use a primary weapon. Melee Spin Attack have similar range with World on Fire, and it is much faster than the delayed blast. And if you pick the other warframe you can enjoy its ability. Then, why we are bothered to use Ember, apart the personal taste? I don't think we have any reason to do.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-11 at 9:50 PM, schilds said:

I take Ember into most high level content just fine (arbis, sorties, kuva floods, eso, etc). 

I can as well, with my 6 Forma 1 Umbra Forma build. But here's the problem. Assuming I have weapons that go along with Ember, unless I'm on an Arbitration with the +300 Power Strength and the faction is Infested, all her abilities become useless, except Accelerant. My abilities become useless and I have to souly rely on my weapons and health. With this said, you cannot bring her expecting to do be doing a lot.

Since all of her Abilities, one again, except the Holy Accelerant, are fire damage based, they all get useless. Which is why Warframes that are utility and DPS take dominant. Because they don't become useless at higher levels. Loki's kit remains relevant to matter the level. Equinox's Maim scales with the enemies health. Octavia scales with the more fire power the enemy puts in. Saryn is... Saryn. Trinity is a valuable support to the entire team as a utility. And Ember...? Her damage doesn't scale. She has no utility. It's all focused on one thing: Fire.

So yes, go ahead and spam the Accelerant at higher levels, that's all fine and dandy. But still goes to show she's still irrelevant to the current state of Warframe. As I've already said, Ember is one of my most favorite Frames, and I hate to see her in the current state she's in.

Edited by --CV--Father_Nox
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Investing in any flat damage source is incredibly terrible in warframe, as most guns you will bring with the right amount of forma will destroy enemies and scale much better with status effects. This is why I had a problem with ember. Her fire damage is negigble as fire itself is not a great element. Corrosive is a much better proc and actually do something significant. Same with viral or gas. 

Her one is just splash fire dmg. Very slow on armored targets and shields, which is every enemy type that matter in war frame. Her four range drops to paltry level pretty quickly, to the point where you would just rather gun them down. Her Accelerant is a hard stun and a dps increase, which is something, and her firewall like a blank ability. She needs a better scaling ability, as flat damage do not do it in war frame anymore.

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Posted (edited)

Honestly, before the ridiculous nerf removes her from the game, I was use Ember by soft CC frame on the high level missions. Fire proc prevents the enemy to backstab her, gives enough time to shoot the stationary target, and also helps to trigger Condition Overload. WoF doesn't prevents you to shoot stuffs either. And fire proc and WoF's raw damage can cause some damage to Corpus and Infested, which is not great but quite serviceable. WoF can't kill high level grineers, but so what? You have the guns for a reason, and at least WoF stalls the enemy and let you shoot them easily.

But, no more. I don't get it why she was nerfed because she is low level exterminator. Equinox does it much better already. And because low level enemies will die whatever you throw against it, so even Ember with Overextended still works against them, so the 'nerf' only removes the possibility to use Ember on high level and do nothing else.

Edited by DroopingPuppy

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8 hours ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

Investing in any flat damage source is incredibly terrible in warframe, as most guns you will bring with the right amount of forma will destroy enemies and scale much better with status effects. This is why I had a problem with ember. Her fire damage is negigble as fire itself is not a great element. Corrosive is a much better proc and actually do something significant. Same with viral or gas.  

Her one is just splash fire dmg. Very slow on armored targets and shields, which is every enemy type that matter in war frame. Her four range drops to paltry level pretty quickly, to the point where you would just rather gun them down. Her Accelerant is a hard stun and a dps increase, which is something, and her firewall like a blank ability. She needs a better scaling ability, as flat damage do not do it in war frame anymore.

Well, we have to concur that armor is not the only problem of Ember. It is the problem of ridiculous armor scaling. Many other abilities that concentrates on the damage are ineffective against high level grineers as well.

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On 2019-05-09 at 6:48 AM, 000l000 said:

 

That´s a nice showcase how utterly trash she is. Thats at least 6 seconds of preparation and another 10 until you finally kill one freaking level 160 heavy gunner while beeing completely immobile. Good luck doing this in a mission where enemies shooting you from outside your personal space of fire.

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I love mag and ember. they both awesome.

Ember rework was the worst done to her under no feasible reason. she was nerfed (before this double nerf); and only usable for cc with augment along with soft dps. THAT was her use on high level missions, you ought to have high movement to play as her, risky but fun. There is many frames like ember good at killing low level, will they get a nerf too? they complained for ember killing everything low level, now what other frames does that too? octavia? saryn? etc. what about weapons that do that too? "oh no he is killing everything with the zenistar or ignis, he doesn't let me kill" i feel this type of nerft came out of pettiness.

"poor thing, he can't kill? let make the rest worst than you pat pat"

same with valkyr nerf, just boils my blood.

At least the range should come back, that effing shrinikng is ridiculus.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Mag isnt S#&$. But you are. She is far better then ember.

Well said. Although Mag is not that good warframe and she was one of the bad warframe before the update a year ago, but anyway she have her uses and at least she do have her own place. Not like the trash such as current Ember.

 

And most part of Mag's bad reputation is raised because she is a starting warframe. She is not that good warframe but she is actually quite playable on endgame. However, she is a lackluster frame for the starters(or, she is simply inferior to Excalibur and Volt for them) so it is nothing wrong that beginners are hate her, which only makes her reputation even worse than her actual power level.

 

Although, I bet that Mesa and Saryn would be even worse than Mag if they are the starting warframe instead of Mag.

Edited by DroopingPuppy

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Well said. Although Mag is not that good warframe and she was one of the bad warframe before the update a year ago, but anyway she have her uses and at least she do have her own place. Not like the trash such as current Ember.

 

And most part of Mag's bad reputation is raised because she is a starting warframe. She is not that good warframe but she is actually quite playable on endgame. However, she is a lackluster frame for the starters(or, she is simply inferior to Excalibur and Volt for them) so it is nothing wrong that beginners are hate her, which only makes her reputation even worse than her actual power level.

 

Although, I bet that Mesa and Saryn would be even worse than Mag if they are the starting warframe instead of Mag.

Mag is more fun and has a ton of depth then some of those two. I will say she is not beginner friendly at all. As i feel late game mods brings out the best of her. I solo elite interceptions with her sometimes. CC with her three is God teir. 

Edited by moostar95

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2 hours ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Well said. Although Mag is not that good warframe and she was one of the bad warframe before the update a year ago, but anyway she have her uses and at least she do have her own place. Not like the trash such as current Ember.

 

And most part of Mag's bad reputation is raised because she is a starting warframe. She is not that good warframe but she is actually quite playable on endgame. However, she is a lackluster frame for the starters(or, she is simply inferior to Excalibur and Volt for them) so it is nothing wrong that beginners are hate her, which only makes her reputation even worse than her actual power level.

 

Although, I bet that Mesa and Saryn would be even worse than Mag if they are the starting warframe instead of Mag.

there is nothing wrong with having a starter thats harder to play. games used to and some still have starter characters that display a learning curve rating. mag was never bad dont know where you are getting that from. like i said she could delete corpus and corrupted instantly. what her rework did was make her more versatile.

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On 2019-05-09 at 6:48 AM, 000l000 said:

Here's how ember is performing against a really high level enemy with fire only.

This video shows why people are not pleased with Ember. This whole set-up with 280% Power Strength Ember + specifically tailered weapon + Cat's buff performs similar or even worse to just a properly modded meta weapon.
One side question: is this your go-to Ember or just a showcase build?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

This video shows why people are not pleased with Ember. This whole set-up with 280% Power Strength Ember + specifically tailered weapon + Cat's buff performs similar or even worse to just a properly modded meta weapon.
One side question: is this your go-to Ember or just a showcase build?

people are forgetting that no armor strip was included in this video. this was strictly heat damage. we all know when dealing with armor corrosive makes things alot simplier, so imagine if he had put kavat armor strip and had corrosive on his ignis.

Edit: the setup in the video would have aslo destroyed any non armor faction almost in an instant because shield (barring proto shield) has no DR against heat and neither does health.

Edited by EinheriarJudith

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

people are forgetting that no armor strip was included in this video. this was strictly heat damage. we all know when dealing with armor corrosive makes things alot simplier, so imagine if he had put kavat armor strip and had corrosive on his ignis.

Edit: the setup in the video would have aslo destroyed any non armor faction almost in an instant because shield (barring proto shield) has no DR against heat and neither does health.

We can´t see his build including aura, the cavat cast the crit buff and he is fighting in a optimal situation against a single enemy and it still takes like 20 seconds for him.

It doesn´t really matter anyway. If you mod for corrosive the whole purpose of your buffs becomes redundant. Because of the mod slot limit your actual heat damage share becomes very low. The ttk difference with or without accelerant on a corrosive damage modded ignis is negligible. And since that´s the case for a pure heat damage weapon you can imagine how weapons with other base types perform.

I have tested this with severeal builds even with riven mods that provide a better comparison. The results in short: you can completely ignore modding for heat damage. Build her full tank and you won´t see any difference... beside the fact that you will actually survive a bit longer. And if you think she is good against corpus I´d say you go into orb vallis trigger the alarm and fight some level 70-80 (not kidding) enemies and and see how this turns out.

She is a walking weapon skin nothing more.

edit: I´d love to see a damage share in the mission report that shows how much damage you did with the abilities (incl buffs) and how much % the weapon did by itself. That would reduce the amount of argumentation because than we can the the actual results of diffent builds.

Edited by Arcira
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1 hour ago, Arcira said:

~snip~

this is something we just arent going to agree on. ive done my testing with less preperation. with corrosive/heat ignis that TTK is severely reduced due to armor being stripped. i dont need enemies to die instantly and they dont take 20 seconds to kill either.

all frames that have squish have a problem in orb valis with alert 4 enemies. wonder why i only ever see chroma inaros and nidus durring profit taker. oh thats right. mostly unkillable tanks.

people have given you more than enough examples. you just refuse to see the evidence. this is all ill say about it.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

this is something we just arent going to agree on. ive done my testing with less preperation. with corrosive/heat ignis that TTK is severely reduced due to armor being stripped. i dont need enemies to die instantly and they dont take 20 seconds to kill either. 

You already did with this statement. As I said if you strip armor the differnece in ttk becomes meaningless.

My standard Ignis build is: Serration, Splittchamber, Heavy Caliber, High Voltage, Malignant Force, Vital Sense, Point Strike and Vile Acceleration.

TTK for 165 Corrupted Heavy Gunner ~ 3 seconds (depending on status/crit rng) and a little bit less with Accelerant

So even if you find a magical slot for your Heat mod/Accelerant combo and get a 100% boost in ttk it would be pointless because there is no reason to specialize into a build that offers you to kill the enemy 1.5 seconds faster. The weapons armor strip does the work the heat multiplier could be 20 and you wouldn´t see any difference.

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

all frames that have squish have a problem in orb valis with alert 4 enemies. wonder why i only ever see chroma inaros and nidus durring profit taker. oh thats right. mostly unkillable tanks.

Beside the obvious tanks (Nidus, Rhino, Inaros, Chroma, ...) almost all warframes have some kind of surviveability like invisibility (Loki, Ivara, Octavia, Ash) or DR (Gara, Mesa, Nezha, Trinity, ...). Almost every warframe has some sort to survivability build.

But since Ember is supposed to survive by killing there enemies (because offensive warframe and stuff .. lol) she doesn´t have anything like that. I tell you a secret with at least 70% of the warframes you can do specialized builds in order to kill enemies way faster Ember ever could and I´m not even talking about the obvious things like Ash´s Fatal Teleport or Gara´s Splinter Strom . Even a tanks like Valkyr (one shot finisher) or supports like Trinity (true damage) have builds to kill very high level enemies (>200) in seconds. Or at least have armor stripping in there kits (Frost, Banshee, Saryn, ...)

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

people have given you more than enough examples. you just refuse to see the evidence. this is all ill say about it.

What evidence? That nice video showing nothing of relevance? Or the brilliant build ideas still suggesting to use overextend in order to counteract the nerfs? Or the people telling everyone they can do sortie with her? I know you can get things done with her but you know what? In theory I could surround the world by foot but let me tell you a secret ... a plane or ship does the work a little bit better ...

I get if DE doesn´t have time, ressources, ideas or whatever for a decent rework but if anyone want to tell me she is fine and don´t need changes I get triggert.

Edited by Arcira
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Posted (edited)

Pratically in that video he wasted 200 energy and a whole life when you can just kill it even at level 9999 with covert lethality in less than a second... without even considering without invincibility  she was dead before starting to fire.

Btw excluding 2 or 3(4 or 5 considering even the perma invisible frames) frames that can melee nicely with hordes of enemies till level 200 and maybe 2 or 3 frames good for defensive missions, the others are just useless.

Most frames should retire themselves.

Edited by bibmobello
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18 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

people are forgetting that no armor strip was included in this video. this was strictly heat damage. we all know when dealing with armor corrosive makes things alot simplier, so imagine if he had put kavat armor strip and had corrosive on his ignis.

Edit: the setup in the video would have aslo destroyed any non armor faction almost in an instant because shield (barring proto shield) has no DR against heat and neither does health.

The point is,  performance shown in the video falls behind a simple meta weapon. If you commit this much to a theme of a frame, it should not fall behind a cookie-cutter build. It also does not have to be armor strip, Slash & Viral combo will kill same Gunner faster. Toxin weapons will still be more effective than pure fire against Curpus, even with such rediculous buffs.
Furthermore, as soon as you started talking about armor strip, this video lost any relevance, becasue your setup would rely on the same meta methods I am talking about. In this case, it is even more advantageous to not have excessive fire on your weapon, so that you do not dilute proc destribution and can strip armor faster, because the idea is to strip armor and enable fire to do its job. All the fire damage you need in this case would be from FA and it would be enough.

His build is: Growing Power, Flash Accelerant, P.Vigor, P.Continuity, Blind Rage, Fleeting Exp, Trans. Fort., A. Message and Constitution, which leaves Ember with ~280% PS, ~120% Duration, ~105% efficiency and 100% range; no idea what's in Exilus. This build is absolutely not viable for normal gameplay. I sincerely hope he used it only to show how pure fire Ember (not) works.

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Posted (edited)
Le 15/05/2019 à 13:43, ShortCat a dit :

This video shows why people are not pleased with Ember. This whole set-up with 280% Power Strength Ember + specifically tailered weapon + Cat's buff performs similar or even worse to just a properly modded meta weapon.
One side question: is this your go-to Ember or just a showcase build?

Good luck killing any high level Grineer with fire only with any other frame. If it was showcase only i'd be using corrosive too but my one and only point was to show that Ember damages and whole kit were nowhere as bad as some people still think. We all know that armor scaling is an issue in this game and it's going to be reworked someday but before we hit the 100 something level, even Ember can kill quite easily with fire. With half of that power strength she'd destroy lvl 100 Grineers. One can kill anything before this level with no more than 200% power strength. If you want to build a low power Ember that's your own concern but don't come here complaining cause her abilities are exponentially scaling - which means that she does need PS. As usual, one needs to know how Ember works before saying she's bad.

Plus everyone is already using Ignis absolutely everywhere, mine was full fire only. My kavat didn't do anything to help which means no Adarza buff and he wasn't stripping armor either. You're just making up stuff like many people here. I'm eager to debate but i won't waste my time anymore here cause this kind of threads are only full of frustrated people who don't want to debate but only complain, again and again.

Edited by 000l000
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Posted (edited)

Something that is not useful or usable on the real games is not meaningfull at all, sir. Especially when it requires very heavy setup and equipment to actually do so while the others are do the same far easier than that.

Edited by DroopingPuppy
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