[Update 25.7] Ranking of Tanking! - Gauss added

[0_The_F00l]

8 hours ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

You should factor in damage reduction ablities. Some frames like Gara, Mesa, Chroma and Baruuk can easily surpass most of everything on this list by using their powers that you'll usually keep up at all times.

Abilities are factored but not min maxed refer comments and description in the table. 

7 hours ago, -VS-Zany said:

Nice list. Would be a shame when you forgot abilities and arcanes in your "ranking".

p.s.: Inaros is not the best Facetank change my mind.

Arcanes have been left out intentionally, they would increase the tanking potential of 90% of the frames equally, wouldn't help with the rank placement. Needed to draw a line some where. 

You are free to tour own opinions, I don't need to change your mind 🙂

7 hours ago, Emolition said:

Don't know personly I use adaptation over QT on oberon and there not much that will sink him when healing is activated.

Adaptation is almost like an arcane in my mind, it will raise the ranks of any frame that has alteast some damage mitigation. Not factored for current ranking. 

 

5 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Nice work!

I have questions, though:

- Is this a ranking based purely on Effective Health Points? If so, what are the parameters? You have a column marked with "armor", but what exactly does that mean? Every Armor mod available, or just a maxed Steel Fiber? What about Health mods?

- If this ranking takes into account more than just eHP to determine tanking efficacy, are the abilities graded quatitatively against each other, or are they just a matter of your estimates?

- Are outside sources a factor in this comparison? If so, which ones, and how important are they? You seem to be ranking Mirage low on this scale because her DR is "unreliable", due to how light mapping works. However, if you play Mirage stationary (for camp Survivals, Defense missions, or for ehp facetank testing, for example), it'd make sense to stick her in a shadow for 95% DR. Shadows don't move, so it seems for Mirage you're adding outside sources (ie how she could be played in practice) to an otherwise distilled comparison. You even said that mobility is overlooked in this comparison, so what makes Mirage special?

- In terms of Ability Values, is your comparison based on unmodded frames, a standard set of mods, or a build optimized for maximum ehp on each frame?

- How are abilities factored into this? Hildryn is virtually unkillable with use of her 2. Same goes for Nidus if he has Insatiable, use of 4 and a steady supply of enemies. Garuda doesn't last long on paper, but her abilities are tailor-made to escape death for basically ever by sustaining her Energy via Health to continually resupply Health. I asume that "passive" abilities like Scarab Swarm and Iron Skin are included to make Inaros and Rhino effective tanks (Void knows Rhino is tissue without his 2), so are "active" abilities considered?

- If abilities are included, what of Augments?

It's a combination of multiple things EHP and abilities and passives. 

The EHP values with armor are with a max rank vitality and max rank steel fiber, with QT is with max flow (not primed and no efficiency modifier) 

Abilities are factored but one frame may have multiple instances of DR or other means of mitigation, if two frames have 90% DR then the one with more EHP would be higher, if there is 40% DR but EHP is higher and you also get heals it becomes a little difficult. 

Ranking is just indicative of how much more effort and modding would be needed to improve survivability.

No strength, duration, efficiency, range modifiers are applied during the ranking, but I have described how they could be used with attributes to squeeze out their potential including augments. 

In short they are all on the same play field. 

So for ranking purpose : mods are vitality, steel fiber, QT, flow, abilities are active (or used regularly if needed) but no modifiers for abilities. 

Thanks for your queries hope I have clarified them🙂

7 hours ago, KnightCole said:

Armor.....that is a video id love to see an indepth video showing the different levels of damage based on armor amounts. 

I dont see armor as doing jack diddly.  I ran a real basic test of my own in the Simulacrum, though it didnt go as well, because I couldnt fit the mods in.

I took my Oberon Prime, who has 225 armor, then put on Steel Fiber, then my 508 points of  buff armor and then an Arcane Guardians +600 armor and I let a Lvl 50 Corpus Supra gunner shoot me, and he basically dropped me in a matter of seconds, I barely noticed any difference between just 225 armor with nothing and 225 with all those armor buffs.

This game follows the vein that most seem to anymore:  Either the enemy cant hurt you and you basically cant die, or you get 1 shot.  I find that to be oh so true with this game.  There isnt really a gradual increase. Its tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, then suddenly after 30 minutes of fighting Grineer, it goes from 5 dmg 5 dmg 5 dmg, 20 dmg from a bombard, to 400 dmg 400 dmg 400 dmg 400 dmg 1500 from a bombard.

For armor :

Damage reduction =armor /(armor +300) 

You then have to factor status effects, and damage types as radiation, corrosive and puncture gain bonus damage and armor ignore. 

Corpus use the puncture weapons predominantly, that's why it is usually a good idea to have some shields as well. Results from impact and slash based attacks should have different results. 

You testing seems to have been skewed against you. 

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 hours ago, KnightCole said:

Oh, no damn doubt, DE fell asleep on the keyboard when they were entering in armor amounts for enemies.....

Im just wondering why armor matters at all, cuz I dont notice any difference, not only in the miniscule little bit I did in the simulacrum, but in general battle field conditions.  I either cant die and enemies do like 2-5 points of dmg per hit, or I evaporate and im dead before I can even register what happened....

This is why, you need to do your tests by gently scaling the enemy level instead of jumping it up. Armour works to a point and then falls off hard when enemies do enough damage to simply 1 shot you through it. At that point armour is only useful if it buffs one of your frames. Up until that point however it will improve survivability. Armour is also only really useful if you use everything at your disposal to stay alive longer for example, add to your armour the 75% damage reduction bonus for rolling and suddenly you become much more capable of surviving a hit.

Frame abiliites, parkour evasion, magus arcanes, arcane guardian, grace etc all of that combines to increase our EHP and therefore our survivability. If you're standing still in a mission then yeh it won't help much but if you add those elements and you're only taking glancing hits, dodging sustained fire etc you become a lot less killable.

[Lutesque]

So There it is..Quick Thinking is Rubbish.... just as I thought.

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

So There it is..Quick Thinking is Rubbish.... just as I thought.

 

Quick thinking is only rubbish for rubbish players who try to block bullets with their face. On the right frame and in the right setup it will greatly increase your survivability.

[Benour]

1 hour ago, Zilchy said:

Quick thinking is only rubbish for rubbish players who try to block bullets with their face. On the right frame and in the right setup it will greatly increase your survivability.

Amen brother! 

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, Lutesque said:

So There it is..Quick Thinking is Rubbish.... just as I thought.

 

Not sure where you got that from. 

[Lutesque]

15 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Not sure where you got that from. 

From Playing.... 

[0_The_F00l]

9 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

From Playing.... 

Not from the information that I painstakingly put together? Why even comment then? 

 

 

Kidding, you are free to your opinions, just know that I disagree with them. 

[YazMatazO]

I am not sure about this. 

Trinity Prime can do a lot, but with different mod configuration. And I mean, if the player puts in the work, she won't die anytime soon. Inaros levels of not dying... probably. 

[(XBOX)GrandSageDragon]

You forgot Hildryn is almost 100% immortal 24/7 

[0_The_F00l]

14 hours ago, (XB1)EmpreyonQueen said:

You forgot Hildryn is almost 100% immortal 24/7 

I did not, I have mentioned that she is an exception which would be in the top 10 due to her unique mechanic. 

Ranking is based on using default ability attributes and fixed survival mods with no specialization.

[ranks21]

the true tanker is loki as he removes weapons and reduces all enemies to melee while confusing them to confusion. a bit of armor stripping and placement of decoy can take you hrs on in. harrow is another tanking frame as long as you can chain his abilities in rhythm 4>1>3 and sometimes his 2 when needed. oberon can be a real tank as long as you have range on his 2 and can supply his 3 and 4 reliably. nekros is a beast with equilibrium and full strength+ speed for his 1 and a bit of duration for his 4.

khora is just the lazy man's tan (my fav) just mod for her 2 and take a hard hitting shotty or status secondary to strip armor with zenistar disc of area denial. her 4 is situational. trinity/prime has been reduced to rubbish since they reworked link and blessing.

I can go on and on but nowadays to do any tanking on most frames are totally dependent on rolling guard which takes away 99% of playing and using your weapons at high levels<< youre constantly rolling to maintain surviving= no actual offensive playing and more evasive, just not a balanced concept/mod.

volt = shield and distance behind the shield while carrying one for tanking as aoe damage will kill him.

all frames are weak to gas/toxin as there is no way to mitigate its damage effectively even with aura/s stacking. while some will say why stand there and take hits it's silly<> the truth to that is, you really have to do that in order to get a true value on how effective a mod is by it's description.  evasive/jumping around isn't tanking, its gtfa from the fight cause i'm scared.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, ranks21 said:

the true tanker is loki as he removes weapons and reduces all enemies to melee while confusing them to confusion. a bit of armor stripping and placement of decoy can take you hrs on in. harrow is another tanking frame as long as you can chain his abilities in rhythm 4>1>3 and sometimes his 2 when needed. oberon can be a real tank as long as you have range on his 2 and can supply his 3 and 4 reliably. nekros is a beast with equilibrium and full strength+ speed for his 1 and a bit of duration for his 4.

khora is just the lazy man's tan (my fav) just mod for her 2 and take a hard hitting shotty or status secondary to strip armor with zenistar disc of area denial. her 4 is situational. trinity/prime has been reduced to rubbish since they reworked link and blessing.

I can go on and on but nowadays to do any tanking on most frames are totally dependent on rolling guard which takes away 99% of playing and using your weapons at high levels<< youre constantly rolling to maintain surviving= no actual offensive playing and more evasive, just not a balanced concept/mod.

volt = shield and distance behind the shield while carrying one for tanking as aoe damage will kill him.

all frames are weak to gas/toxin as there is no way to mitigate its damage effectively even with aura/s stacking. while some will say why stand there and take hits it's silly<> the truth to that is, you really have to do that in order to get a true value on how effective a mod is by it's description.  evasive/jumping around isn't tanking, its gtfa from the fight cause i'm scared.

Your first and last statements are kinda against each other there. 

May want to rephrase. 

[bibmobello]

Every month comes up the Tank hit parade... It could be useful and funny if DE publishes the most played frames on arbitration(pre revives) and the most long-lived ones. People don't understand that Inaros with adaptation can sustain more damage than other frames, he doesn't rely on energy and with magnus repair you can't practically die...

Edited May 7, 2019 by bibmobello

[Cicatrice]

7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I did not, I have mentioned that she is an exception which would be in the top 10 due to her unique mechanic. 

Ranking is based on using default ability attributes and fixed survival mods with no specialization.

 

Sorry to say this, but your list has no meaning in the game. Excluding mods or arcanes or anything that is usable by players means that the list is just a list within the constraints you have defined. 

The defining quality of a tank is not EHP, it is a taunt or aggro holding (templar, nightblade tank in ESO, warrior MT in Vanilla and TBC WOW, lancer and warrior in Tera, Cora tank in RFonline (lol), AION, etc, "I luv tnaks"). The only true tanks in this game are ones that use... guardian derision ... is there anything else? Everything else is a tougher or weaker DPS. 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

51 minutes ago, Cicatrice said:

Sorry to say this, but your list has no meaning in the game. Excluding mods or arcanes or anything that is usable by players means that the list is just a list within the constraints you have defined. 

this.  Abilities, arcanes, adaptation are critical to true tanking.  while perhaps an interesting view, its not "real-world" applicable.

 

[aswitz87]

By not using Intensify, you are literally intentionally gimping the tankyness of Rhino.  That alone makes this list kinda worthless.

Shame considering all the time this likely took.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

23 minutes ago, aswitz87 said:

By not using Intensify, you are literally intentionally gimping the tankyness of Rhino.  That alone makes this list kinda worthless.

Shame considering all the time this likely took.

And Gara, Mesa, Oberon, Nezha, and Chroma.

[0_The_F00l]

12 hours ago, Cicatrice said:

 

Sorry to say this, but your list has no meaning in the game. Excluding mods or arcanes or anything that is usable by players means that the list is just a list within the constraints you have defined. 

The defining quality of a tank is not EHP, it is a taunt or aggro holding (templar, nightblade tank in ESO, warrior MT in Vanilla and TBC WOW, lancer and warrior in Tera, Cora tank in RFonline (lol), AION, etc, "I luv tnaks"). The only true tanks in this game are ones that use... guardian derision ... is there anything else? Everything else is a tougher or weaker DPS. 

You are correct that it is a list within constraints that I have mentioned , but all frames have the same constraint. 

Your second statement is comparing the term "tank" in games which are very different from warframe, not sure if it intended as a joke or serious, please clarify application in game. 

 

11 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

this.  Abilities, arcanes, adaptation are critical to true tanking.  while perhaps an interesting view, its not "real-world" applicable.

 

Abilities are factored but not min maxed. Rank is indicative of how much more modding or min maxing is needed to draw out max potential. All frames can get to moderate rank if arcane guardian is used and triggered at the right time as an example. Relative ranking would be affected very slightly when arcanes are applied across the board. 

 

10 hours ago, aswitz87 said:

By not using Intensify, you are literally intentionally gimping the tankyness of Rhino.  That alone makes this list kinda worthless.

Shame considering all the time this likely took.

Rhino is in top 5, not sure where you get the gimping, all frames are in the same boat, and instead of intensify why not just use ironclad charge and shrapnel skin? why gimp rhino with just strength and not add some more armor ? Please do not call something useless by giving a sub par example which is not even optimized. 

The list is for comparison purpose on a level field. 

 

Already working on a "best modded setup for maximum survival" along with rank as well, but is gonna be more effort and time on my side.

[bibmobello]

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You are correct that it is a list within constraints that I have mentioned , but all frames have the same constraint. 

Your second statement is comparing the term "tank" in games which are very different from warframe, not sure if it intended as a joke or serious, please clarify application in game. 

 

Excuse me but what kind of game are you talking about? Warframe is identical to every other action cooperative game but on normal missions is so fkn easy that every frame is a tank or a dps or whatever you like. So yes you are right mag is tank because she has overshields and you can use adaptation, arcane grace and even  arcane idiot on equinox to melee a level 200 bombard...

[aswitz87]

24 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

 

 

Rhino is in top 5, not sure where you get the gimping, all frames are in the same boat, and instead of intensify why not just use ironclad charge and shrapnel skin? why gimp rhino with just strength and not add some more armor ? Please do not call something useless by giving a sub par example which is not even optimized. 

The list is for comparison purpose on a level field. 

 

Already working on a "best modded setup for maximum survival" along with rank as well, but is gonna be more effort and time on my side.

But not every frame is equally effected by certain mods, especially intensify, when it comes to tankability.  Rhino’s iron skin is directly affected by his power strength among other things (also, after a couple seconds under the orikin lasers his iron skin can be propelled into the 50k+ armor range so he is situationally insanely tanky).  Meanwhile intensify does nothing to improve Volt’s tankyness.

Rhino not having intensify losses more tank than a maxed vitality can give to any low armor frame.

[0_The_F00l]

36 minutes ago, aswitz87 said:

But not every frame is equally effected by certain mods, especially intensify, when it comes to tankability.  Rhino’s iron skin is directly affected by his power strength among other things (also, after a couple seconds under the orikin lasers his iron skin can be propelled into the 50k+ armor range so he is situationally insanely tanky).  Meanwhile intensify does nothing to improve Volt’s tankyness.

Rhino not having intensify losses more tank than a maxed vitality can give to any low armor frame.

Exactly, situational and subject to external factors,

where does one draw the line where one should and should not consider a mod is better than the others, how do you compare a frame that can potentially get a million hp if you activate his ability at the right time ? 

Is continuity not essential for a tanky nova? Is range not needed on Equinox? How much is too much and how much is too little? 

Do you think I am wrong for placing rhino at 4th rank? Should he be lower? 

1 hour ago, bibmobello said:

Excuse me but what kind of game are you talking about? Warframe is identical to every other action cooperative game but on normal missions is so fkn easy that every frame is a tank or a dps or whatever you like. So yes you are right mag is tank because she has overshields and you can use adaptation, arcane grace and even  arcane idiot on equinox to melee a level 200 bombard...

Arcane idiot, hmm don't have this arcane yet, do you use it regularly? 

[bibmobello]

Just now, 0_The_F00l said:

Arcane idiot, hmm don't have this arcane yet, do you use it regularly? 

No sorry i haven't' find it yet! :-)

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Arcane idiot, hmm don't have this arcane yet, do you use it regularly? 

I believe it's a very popular arcane for pub players, I see it being used a lot in Hydron.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Zilchy

[bibmobello]

2 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

I believe it's a very popular arcane for pub players, I see it being used a lot in Hydron.

It must be really powerful because i have seen many players with 50 health and 10 shields trying to kill a nox with  a slingshot.