What is wrong with giving options to the players?

[DreisterDino]

Hey, its me again 😁

 

As a short introduction - i made a topic in which i pointed out that after watching the last Dev-Stream i had lost faith that we will get the option to play high-level-content without having to stay for a long time in a mission until the level reaches a certain point, for example level 100. I have seen the following answers come up again and again in the forums and in that topic again aswell when someone asks for high level content, in my case something like High-level-Fissures that look like this:

 

• just adds the possibility for players to have missions that already start at level 100 for example
• are completly optional because they dont give any exclusive rewards
• you enjoy fighting high-level enemies? Go ahead and play this mission
• you dont enjoy it? Just take any other low-level fissure that is also available without missing out on anything

 

Still, this comes up:

• "you will cheese it anyway"
• "high lvl isnt difficulty"

 

My problem with the statement "you will cheese it anyway" is:

1. In many cases its not true, meaning people wont cheese it like you think they will, how can you assume how i am gonna play?
2. and in the cases in which people actually play like you expect them (but dont want them) to play - why do you care?
3. Why is there a difference between "cheesing" a lvl 10 lith fissure or cheesing a lvl 100 fissure?

 

How can this be an argument against optional content that no one has to play but many would like to play?

If people enjoy playing against lvl 100+ enemies, what is the reason to argue about whether they are "doing it the right way" or if its "real difficulty" or not?

 

I really dont get it...

Edited May 5, 2019 by DreisterDino

[YazMatazO]

I'd rather play against 100 and above enemies all the time. Even with all the issues present, I'd still prefer 100+. I just don't want to use my arsenal on something else. 

That said, enemies need something more than just raw stats at the moment. Just my singular opinion, of course. 

[AshenHaze]

The main problem imho with these high level (note DE Rebecca, 35 is NOT high level) missions is that it essentially forces you into playing a certain way because of just how overpowered the enemies are. Most can simply instantly delete you so much as throwing a foul glance.

In a game where there is a stockpile of RNG based grinding to complete, minutes add up. If you want to take extra time to actually play the game for fun then you're taking a huge opportunity cost as you could have used that time to knock out another project. The fact that DE just keeps adding stuff also means that players are essentially full up schedule wise unless they have everything they wanted already.

Which, of course, those who have what they want to the fullest are the minority.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

12 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

How can this be an argument against optional content that no one has to play but many would like to play?

It's very simple. I see it as something similar to FOMO, from people who absolutely think they must play everything and get everything. That means, of course, that whatever such people don't like shouldn't be in the game, even if they don't have to play it, because they fear they'll miss out if a mode they don't enjoy comes out. And so it's easier to ask for it to not exist for anyone, than simply ignoring it or leveling up in order to make such a mechanic or game mode easy.

[THeMooN85]

14 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

What is wrong with giving options to the players?

The problem is... players. No one cares, they know better.

[(NSW)Lunavay]

I see it as how they prioritize their time/money invested, i.e, making contents for 70% of players vs making contents for 30% of the players. 

There's nothing wrong, just that we all have limited time that results in prioritizing our choices. It's the same for DE.

Edited May 5, 2019 by (NSW)Lunavay
Typo

[DreisterDino]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb AshenHaze:

The main problem imho with these high level (note DE Rebecca, 35 is NOT high level) missions is that it essentially forces you into playing a certain way because of just how overpowered the enemies are. Most can simply instantly delete you so much as throwing a foul glance.

We are talking about level 100 here, and i dont feel forced to play a certain way, i can still use many different frames and weapons.

But even if it will force me into a certain playstyle at some point - thats exactly the question - if i enjoy that, why is it an counter-argument?

 

Zitat

In a game where there is a stockpile of RNG based grinding to complete, minutes add up. If you want to take extra time to actually play the game for fun then you're taking a huge opportunity cost as you could have used that time to knock out another project. The fact that DE just keeps adding stuff also means that players are essentially full up schedule wise unless they have everything they wanted already.

Which, of course, those who have what they want to the fullest are the minority.

This is also assuming stuff and a non-argument for me.

If people like me say they simply want to play this higher level missions for fun you cant say "no, really, you dont wanna do that, you will miss out on many other things" 😉

People that ask for high level content often ask for this because they actually want to use everything they have farmed before, so in this case its nonsense to say "no you cant get this mission where you make good use of everything you farmed before - instead i suggest you better farm more stuff (which you dont need because we dont want to you to have the option to play higher level missions because you are better off farming stuff)" 😛

Edit: Or in my example: Being able to do both: farm stuff and fight high level enemies

 

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Lunavay:

I see it as how they prioritize their time/money invested, i.e, making contents for 70% of players vs making contents for 30% of the players. 

There's nothing wrong, just that we all have limited time that results in prioritizing the choices. It's the same for DE.

and i understand that, but i am not asking for anything complicated here.

Adding 4 more fissure missions with starting level 100 is probably just a few clicks for them 😉

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by DreisterDino

[Lost_Cartographer]

13 minutes ago, THeMooN85 said:

The problem is... players. No one cares, they know better.

This.  When people ask for difficulty, what they really want is an excuse to raise drop rates/improve reward quality.

Still, if we get a difficulty slider, I'm bumping that SoB to 35-45 and setting enemy spawns to "dense/4 players."  "Alarms: On" If I get that option too.  AI and alarms have been broken lately, and it's getting mind numbingly frustrating to casually blaze through a map guns blazing and hear no alarms.  I play to shoot $#!%.  There's more than plenty of stuff for me to farm for, being only MR19, but I'm more concerned with killing hordes of enemies over grinding out every little thing.  Loot is just an excuse to vary what I do, not (usually) the reason I do something at all.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[DreisterDino]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Lost_Cartographer:

This.  When people ask for difficulty, what they really want is an excuse to raise drop rates/improve reward quality.

*facepalm*

Im gonna jump out of my window now (i live on first floor, but im still gonna do it as a symbolic act 😁)

 

Seriously, thats exactly what i mean - assume stuff and use it as a valid argument.

FFS, i dont care about droprates, i just want to be able to open relics for example without falling asleep but i guess thats too hard to understand...

Thanks for telling me what i really want though, i can see clearly now! Praise the Lotus!

Edited May 5, 2019 by DreisterDino

[(NSW)Lunavay]

15 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

and i understand that, but i am not asking for anything complicated here.

Adding 4 more fissure missions with starting level 100 is probably just a few clicks for them 😉

That will create its own host of problems that I won't discuss here. 

What I'm saying is, I doubt they forgot about the veteran players but when it comes to new contents, veteran players will find things easy most of the time. It doesn't mean they are not working on a real solution (temp fix often creates more problems) though.

Edited May 5, 2019 by (NSW)Lunavay

[Chipputer]

15 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

This.  When people ask for difficulty, what they really want is an excuse to raise drop rates/improve reward quality.

This is an awfully big assumption. I know plenty of people, myself included, that would be fine doing level 100+ (or even 200+) missions with meme builds and would be fine with the same rewards someone doing the mission at the intended level are getting. We just want to be up against enemies that we actually have to try against.

[HatedByLifeItself]

Literally what i've been asking for a long time, if only they implement this and add a setting to choose spawns for endless missions because spawns solo... are just too low.

[Oreades]

The problem is it doesn't stop there. You run into the classic "If you give a mouse a cookie" 

Because the next thing they are going to want is "a glass of milk" and by that I mean better rewards for their "effort", the whole "just give us this and we'll be happy" is never how it plays out in the long run. 

Tho I will give you the most boring part of endless missions other than the whole mission *ba dum tss* is waiting for things to ramp up. That said if you're not going through that ramp up period all you really get are a more frequent failure states and loading screens, so ultimately you end up spending more time getting less loot, Wooo~?

[Deshiel]

Recently I started to wonder whether warframe isn't just a glorified hazard machine that instead of cash, gambles with your time. You put in your time, but now, especialy with the wolf sledge, the mask and the smoking body ephemera. Instead of earning things thru skills and resources, you just put your time into the hands of pure RNG and thats when the gambling truly begins.

[Nez-Kal]

You gotta love this OP when he makes Counter-Arguments of "Don't just assume the Player-Base will do stuff when that's exactly what they've always done before because This Time will be Different".

Higher Level options come out, Players Always, ALWAYS, ask for higher Rewards from said options, even if these options are completely optional. "DE, why even put this function/higher-tier into the game if you don't give more Rewards?! You Suck!!!!" is always the response the Player-Base gives. (I'm not just making that up. Just look at literally any thread talking about Endless missions and increasing the Rewards from them for longer runs and Higher Level Enemy spawns and such.)


That all said, You DO have the option as a Player to spawn into any mission of your choosing WITHOUT all your Power-Creeped Mods/Gear, and play against multiple levels of Enemy and Factions of your choosing, letting that mission be more Difficult for you, while earning the same rewards, as well as not negatively effecting the Players around you and their game (Unless you keep going down and needing to be Revived).

[SteelOverseer666]

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

My problem with the statement "you will cheese it anyway" is:

1. In many cases its not true, meaning people wont cheese it like you think they will, how can you assume how i am gonna play?
2. and in the cases in which people actually play like you expect them (but dont want them) to play - why do you care?
3. Why is there a difference between "cheesing" a lvl 10 lith fissure or cheesing a lvl 100 fissure?

 

 

Sounds to me like:

"I wont cheese it! Why do you care if I cheese it!? Whats wrong with cheesing it!"

😛

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Options are good.  Certain options players want on the other hand....

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

•  
• "high lvl isnt difficulty"

Well... Yes... it isn't. And this isn't going to go away...

Are the enemies getting Smarter ? 

Do they come in more Varied Configurations ? 

Do they move faster ? 

Nope.... they just turn up dial that increases their health and damage to absurd levels. 

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

 

My problem with the statement "you will cheese it anyway" is:

1. In many cases its not true, meaning people wont cheese it like you think they will, how can you assume how i am gonna play?
2. and in the cases in which people actually play like you expect them (but dont want them) to play - why do you care?
3. Why is there a difference between "cheesing" a lvl 10 lith fissure or cheesing a lvl 100 fissure?

But you will cheese it anyway... the scaling will force you to cheese it because playing normally is no longer viable due to getting one shotted and your weapons no longer being able to keep up.

The cheese is guaranteed one way or another.

That being said:

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

How can this be an argument against optional content that no one has to play but many would like to play?

If people enjoy playing against lvl 100+ enemies, what is the reason to argue about whether they are "doing it the right way" or if its "real difficulty" or not?

 

I really dont get it...

I have zero issues with it.... However if theres any exclusive rewards from doing this then I have an issue with it.... infact il go one step further and say rate of rewards counts as exclusivity too....

What I mean by this is even if the rewards are the same but one mode allows you to obtain them significantly faster then this falls into the category of exclusivity.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Lutesque

[KnightCole]

PLayers cheese difficulty because the enemies are so full of cheese the only way to fight cheese is cheese.  What they need to do is make the enemies better, smarter, more tactical with more abilities, like us, in the Warframes.  Not just pack of armor, hitpoints, damage, more armor, a bit more health, a touch of damage and when they get done, add more armor and health.  Oh?  You want more difficulty?  Ok, 100% immunity to all your skills to boot, plus, make sure you dont forget to add armor and hitpoints to the enemy......when your done, now were gunna add enemies teleport you to them so you cant escape....

THAT is honestly the biggest flaw with this game, and what makes it ALOT more boring than it otherwise could be. DE needs to seriously take the time to put more effort into their enemy units and the AI controlling them.

More bullets into the enemy doesnt constitute challenge, its not ultimately more enjoyable in the long run and it wont keep people that long.  Eventually, someone will trivialize it by simply min maxing to the max and then all your extra 10,000% buffs to the enemies are pointless.  Then DE goes and does things like adds Rivens and Arcanes to make US even more powerful and able to trivialize the enemies further.  Cuz 75% crit isnt enough, here is a Riven and an Arcane and a Cat so you can get like 220% Crit chance.....and then 6x crit dmg, that isnt enough, your Riven also increases that to 9x.  With my Soma Riven, I can get a 124% Crit chance and like 12.8x crit mult.  Granted, its not a terribly good build, and its not even remotely close to as high as you can get it, but still....

I think DE needs to put the brakes on all the power creep. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by KnightCole

[Lost_Cartographer]

3 hours ago, Chipputer said:

This is an awfully big assumption. I know plenty of people, myself included, that would be fine doing level 100+ (or even 200+) missions with meme builds and would be fine with the same rewards someone doing the mission at the intended level are getting. We just want to be up against enemies that we actually have to try against.

It's not an assumption.  As Warframe is as much a numbers game as it is a third person shooter, by level 100, squish frames MUST crowd control entire tiles to stay alive.  Tank frames MUST beef up their armor and health and recover lost health to survive the punishment coming their way.  Your weapons and powers need to have the power to kill the enemy in a reasonable time frame.  There is no "try."  You either have the math on your side, or you don't.

 

[DreisterDino]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Oreades:

The problem is it doesn't stop there. You run into the classic "If you give a mouse a cookie" 

Because the next thing they are going to want is "a glass of milk" and by that I mean better rewards for their "effort", the whole "just give us this and we'll be happy" is never how it plays out in the long run.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Tangent-Valley:

Higher Level options come out, Players Always, ALWAYS, ask for higher Rewards from said options, even if these options are completely optional. "DE, why even put this function/higher-tier into the game if you don't give more Rewards?! You Suck!!!!" is always the response the Player-Base gives. (I'm not just making that up. Just look at literally any thread talking about Endless missions and increasing the Rewards from them for longer runs and Higher Level Enemy spawns and such.)

 

And how is this a reason not to implement something like i suggested?

The fact that people constantly want scaling kuva rewards for example hasnt been a reason not to implement kuva-survival, nor has it been a reason to remove it.

Just let those people complain (because like some of you also said, some people will always complain) and let the others enjoy fighting higher-level enemies.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Lutesque:

But you will cheese it anyway... the scaling will force you to cheese it because playing normally is no longer viable due to getting one shotted and your weapons no longer being able to keep up.

The cheese is guaranteed one way or another.

Ok you did say yourself later on you dont have a problem with this, but i still want to add that imo it doesnt make a difference if an experienced player clears each wave in a lith defense in 30 seconds with just pressing one button standing in the middle or if you kill lvl 100 enemies using other tactics. Saying the one thing is ok but the other isnt doesnt make any sense, if you call the one thing cheesing, you have to be fair and call everything else in the game cheesing aswell.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Lutesque:

However if theres any exclusive rewards from doing this then I have an issue with it.... infact il go one step further and say rate of rewards counts as exclusivity too....

I cant agree with this. By this logic it is also bad that:

• Bounty Stage 5 gives better rewards and more standing than Bounty Stage 1
• Arbitrations have an endless c-Rotation
• High-Risk Index gets your more Credits than low-Risk Index

I could add more examples here....simply put: rate of rewards already increase in many different ways in the game, and i dont think we should call this exclusivity.

 

Lastly i want to say that even if in my Elite-Fissures example the boosters we have there start at 25% already, would this really be an increased rate of rewards?

I think it would simply make up for the increased time it takes to kill enemies, because coming back to my defense-example, you dont clear a wave of level 100 enemies in 30 seconds with any frame anymore but in 1 minute or even longer maybe depending on your loadout, and then a 25% increase of drops wont make up for this. And again, we already have many systems like this in the game already.

Edited May 5, 2019 by DreisterDino

[Nez-Kal]

2 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

And how is this a reason not to implement something like i suggested?

Right back at you. Why is you complaining about it reason FOR them to implement it, if Players are just going to complain either way?

[NocheLuz]

This is a rather interesting topic. As I had discussed something similar before about the rewards system. The conclusion is that, there are people who only prefer to play the new mode only if there are appropriate rewards for them. Long story short, if there aren't exclusive rewards to that mode, they will not play them.

PS. This may not be really related to the topic but the topic I previously discussed is about Stalker-PvP where there are players that wants people to participate by using exclusive rewards as baits. Without them they will just choose to opt-out, they said.... which I still stand that there shouldn't be an exclusive rewards, or if there are... They should be all tradable.

[Ziser]

This is turning into a mess, i see no issues in adding options to raise enemy starting levels in missions without raising rewards, i would quite like it. I can see elitists using this to their defence to call others casuals or noobs and i can see people feeling frustated if they cant tackle the higher diffculty being stressed out of afraid that they will get called out for it. Thats pointless and stupid thinking from both sides. Theres no issue at all with adding this, its a good idea, a very good idea, i see no reasonable arguments against it at all and i dont understand why theres even people against the idea.

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

It's not an assumption.

Except it is, though. There's a much larger group of people than you realize that just want enemies to pose a threat and nothing else. This has nothing to do with math or whatever else you took a tangent off into.

Literally just, "let me start the mission at a higher level so I don't fall asleep before I can start having fun."