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Psykhe27

Game is too easy and caters to noobs

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> Game is too easy and caters to noobs

> Game is difficult, time-gating, and non-beginner-friendly

confused confusion GIF

i'm MR17, which one of these am I supposed to f---king BELIEVEEEEE-

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It is not an issue with this game alone, altought it is arguably a lot worse than other RPGs. Developers are reluctant to make "end game" content with appropriate level of difficulty and rewards, because they are afraid that 99% of their playerbase will not participate, essentially making it a dead content out of the bat. What every developer forgets, however, is the myth of the 1%, best explained in a 2005 Blizzcone about raiding in World of Warcrat. If you make incentive for people to reach higher in the game, they would take part in the "1%" content.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb FlusteredFerret:

The game needs to cater to players of all skill levels...including noobs.

DE are trying to figure out how to provide more challenging content for veterans, without screwing up the game for everyone else.

 

In the meantime, if you're bored - go play another game. Elitist tryhards like you make up a small percentage of the player base, so DE aren't going to jump to your command.

 

 

Exactly this.

No one forces you to play, no sub to pay, no content you will miss out since everything comes back one way or another, no one is holding a gun to your head OP, come back when you feel like it or leave completly, simple as it is, breaks can do wonder and see the game in a more refreshing light.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

breaks can do wonder and see the game in a more refreshing light

Hardly. I came to the game after a year and a half and I was welcomed with Fortuna, which is the exact same thing as Cetus and a game mode that rewards vast amount of endo, which I don't need and sometimes a mode that costs 30p one the market, while boasting of its difficulty and unforgiving nature. I agree it is unforgiving, when you connect to a host with 500+ MS and Host migration kills your entire 50 minute+ prgoress. (I still don't understand why dedicated servers are not a thing for this game)
So what I end up doing is the same thing - farming rep with Fortuna to make my new amp, to Hunt some more Eidolons and maybe make a broken secondary (which si OP as hell, I'll give it that), but essentially is worthless, because Saryn kills the entire map.

Edited by Highresist
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Gerade eben schrieb Highresist:

Hardly. I came to the game after a year and a half and I was welcomed with Fortuna, which is the exact same thing as Cetus and a game mode that rewards vast amount of endo, which I don't need and sometimes a mode that costs 30p one the market, while boasting of its difficulty and unforgiving nature. I agree it is unforgiving, when you connect to a host with 500+ MS and Host migration kills your entire 50 minute+ prgoress.
So what I end up doing is the same thing - farming rep with Fortuna to make my new amp, to Hunt some more Eidolons and maybe make a broken secondary (which si OP as hell, I'll give it that), but essentially is worthless, because Saryn kills the entire map.

That i can agree on thou sadly, yet those peopel who scream for "end content" are teh first who get bored right away becasue they burn themself out with the new content to the newest shiny stuff. No game can ever have real end content and that is good so honestly, no game will exist forever and we have to move on, but it is nice able to come back i say to it.

Personal opinion on End content is, it turns into work most the time, raids in MMO's, needing to be organized, etc. Which of course can be fun at first but if you repeat that lets say every weekend it turns into a chore and then the game is not jsut fun to paly but work to do you have to log in, you have to learn your stuff and start to paly perfect to make it as short as possbile so it not drags out.

Humans are no machines but yet for soem reason we like to repeat the same thigns over and over, even i do such i admit but overall it feels off and should not be that way, i mean on the other hand i can see that mediocore games make you return to your old games also because tehy disapoint, so it is already hard to move on or take breaks.

All i say is really or try to say is that people should stop worrying aobut havign anytihng to do in a game, those life service games i am not a fan of i admit, it is nice seeinga game evolve, especially story wise, but maybe we should consdier that humanity is to fed up with things they scream more for.

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Posted (edited)
vor 1 Stunde schrieb --DSP--Jetstream:

Theres a reason the game is free 🙂

This.

As much dumb stuff DE can do at times and we are angry of course but they are still my favorite developer because they try things and are indipendent and mroe preferable then any triple A game or publisher, i rather give them money for cosemtics or prime acces and support them, then any full price title that still wants subs and or micro transactions for things that actually matter.

Edited by Marine027
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29 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

> Game is too easy and caters to noobs

> Game is difficult, time-gating, and non-beginner-friendly

confused confusion GIF

i'm MR17, which one of these am I supposed to f---king BELIEVEEEEE-

 

Both, of course. :wink:

It all depends where you are at in the game. I'm MR11 myself and still find some things very challenging (Eidolon hunts, Nightmare missions) and some things impossible (Sorties).

Thats what so many complainers fail to realise. They are so blinkered and thinking only of themselves (or possibly a few friends in the same position), instead of realising there is a huge player base, of all abilities.

 

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32 minutes ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make arbitrations harder. Make them more rewarding. This could be a fun game mode if it were not boring as hell. Doing 40 waves for a C cycle is absurd. Make it 20 waves. Make it scale harder. If noobs want the rewards and can't participate then, god forbid, they need to learn and meet higher skill players.


Make game modes that rewards based on merit and challenge.

Make it so achievement is earned rather than just showing up.

There is no endgame because level 35 is considered hard. 1 hr mot level should be a base starting point for a game mode.

- From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

MR27 here. 

I think you're well intentioned, but a few fries short of a happy meal. 

It's much more easier for us to find challenges in game than it is to force players to a different standard of gamestyle, especially casual players. Everyone should be welcomed, not shoved against a learning curve wall. 

Drop that mod (or mods), go with the non-meta. Use a dragon key. The challenge is there. We can find it. Heck, grab four friends and do a survival challenge with a Javlok, and the only mod you're allowed is heavy caliber. Found a workaround to cheese this? Restrict yourself more. That's challenge there. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

Drop that mod (or mods), go with the non-meta. Use a dragon key. The challenge is there.

This is intentionally gimping yourself for the sake of finding a challenge, rather than the game testing you at your best, which it should do (and obviously reward you accordingly). This is not a good way to find hard content, because by that logic, you should go naked with a skana and if you die, you delete your account (I red that somewhere and found it extremely funny).

Edited by Highresist
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46 minutes ago, Psykhe27 said:

There is no endgame because level 35 is considered hard. 1 hr mot level should be a base starting point for a game mode.

The final levels of the Star Chart are consider Endgame because that is the end of the Base Campaign.
So from a GAME DESIGN standpoint. Level 35 is INDEED high level.

Fortuna & POE (considered Expansions) showed that many enemies in high level Bounties start at 40-60ish. So they are considered "Endgame"/"Very Hard" at this present point in time.
Hence

You're being very narrow minded. You're looking at the game & levels from your PERSONAL perspective & not looking at it from a game design standpoint.
Design wise, 35 is truthfully high level (especially since players cap out at level 30), DE however did not & will not design the game around level 100 enemies (until they rebalance enemies stats) just like how they won't balance the game around Rivens.

If every game balanced around the top % then no one would be playing. Most players are one or two shot to level 100 enemies, anything beyond that is guaranteed one shot.
Many players do not like that.

Additionally, balancing around Endurance runs is piss poor design. As Endurance runs are typically camping, with specific setups, meta builds, & debatably (depends on who you ask) cheesy tactics.
1 Hour Mot as a starting point is a joke. Mot enemies have a damage modifier in place so they aren't even proper enemies to begin with.

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Just now, Highresist said:

This is intentionally gimping yourself for the sake of finding a challenge, rather than the game testing you at your best, which it should do (and obviously reward you accordingly). This is not a good way to find hard content, because by that logic, you should go nacked with a skana and if you die, you delete your account (I red that somewhere and found it extremely funny).

And yet, it still is a valid option, in my personal opinion. I find this being creative, rather than gimping. 

While I would love for a challenging game mode, the means for it are not in place yet, and that involves going into how damage work, how enemies scale, and a ton of other factors. There's too many issues in the game that needs to be looked at. Take Nuzlock challenges being a thing, the same can apply to Warframe. Heck, clear a node with any warframe, but the conditions are you're only allowed mods that has a portrait of said warframe in it. You say gimping, I say maximising the game's potential to my amusement, while finding a challenge that I want.

The part I hold reservation to is not the "game testing you at your best", but rather a I want to feel powerful mentality. If (in my opinion), the real demand is for skill, shouldn't a player's ability to survive in any condition be the measure, vs finding that bit of gear that makes the game easier? If I want to test myself, would I bring my Plague Kripath + Riven or would I bring a underlooked weapon/frame/mod build and push myself to it's maximum potential?

The next issue is rewards. However if handled wrongly, it can make potentially interested players feel excluded. For context, I'm not talking about casuals, or new players. I'm referring to the part of the community that straddles veteran, but is still fairly new to the game. Not yet a minmaxer, if you would. It's not an issue of getting better. Rather, it's like PoE when it first dropped, and the rewards were difficult to come by (eg. 5 bounties for a single cetus wisp, or a single breath of eidolon). Vets could make it trivial (bad drop rates notwithstanding), but for a new player, it would be completely overwhelming. See where I'm getting at? They would want it, but would feel barred. If that feeling chases them away, that isn't something I would consider good, even if it could be fixed by said player 'getting better'. 

That's my five cents. Again, you can say that I'm beating around the bush, that gimping isn't 'real challenge', or that my definitions are completely wrong and that will be fine. We'd just agree to disagree, and move on. 

TL:DR - Should there be a endgame content for players? Yes. Can it be done? Not at the present. Is there any option to find a challenge in Warframe? Yes. 

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20 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

The next issue is rewards. However if handled wrongly, it can make potentially interested players feel excluded. For context, I'm not talking about casuals, or new players. I'm referring to the part of the community that straddles veteran, but is still fairly new to the game. Not yet a minmaxer, if you would. It's not an issue of getting better. Rather, it's like PoE when it first dropped, and the rewards were difficult to come by (eg. 5 bounties for a single cetus wisp, or a single breath of eidolon). Vets could make it trivial (bad drop rates notwithstanding), but for a new player, it would be completely overwhelming. See where I'm getting at? They would want it, but would feel barred. If that feeling chases them away, that isn't something I would consider good, even if it could be fixed by said player 'getting better'. 

I came to Warframe after the colossal failiure of a game that for the past 14 years was the beacon of how to handle hardcore and casual playerbase alike. Warframe realistically doesn't have a game that is similar to it, because both Destiny 2 and Anthem are trash, so the closest one I can compare it to is Path of Exile. In PoE you don't need best of the best of the best gear to play it's endgame, but it does have the option of pushing your character into harder depths and making your min-maximization matter, while at the same time not travilizing older content (essentially by making very hard hitting mechanics), without wasting your time rewardwise. Warframe doesn't have that. It bars you at every point you want to push your best frame and on top of that it doesn't give you any significant loot. 
The whole reward system of Warframe is kind of upside-down. There is a meme going around that the new game mode would give "Pressure Point"? I don't get why the developers are scared to give loot to their players in a looter game.

 

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1 hour ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make game modes that rewards based on merit and challenge.

> doesn't give any ideas on how to reward players based on merit and challenge.

1 hour ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make it so achievement is earned rather than just showing up.

> doesn't give any ideas on how achievement can be earned.

why do people do this; start a thread saying we need this without actually posting any ideas in their OP? at least go the full distance and propose something less vague, so that the rest of us can discuss it. the discussion starts with YOU, OP.

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That is the main theme thou no one will ever say it is.

Warframe is not a hardcore looter, its a casual looter. 

The difference is quite simple actually. You can compare 2 successful grind games that strive to be on those polars. Path of exile - wants to be the hardcore looter, Warframe the casual one. Both are f2p. 

In warframe anyone basically can see and play almost all of the content excluding minor things, so endgame is like 5% of the content. In Poe its the other way, statistics show that 90% of its playerbase have not even seen 90% of the content.

This changes drasticaly the way content is created and how endgame works. Droprates for rare in warframe are around 5% in PoE around 1/3000 or less.

In both games enemies are easy if you have the knowledge and difficult if you don't, and both require almost zero skill like.. well most looters do.

In both endgame content is easy if you put enough hours to the grind and aquire cheesy gear that is in abundance. The only difference is that in Poe you either grind 10 times more for it or play the trade game as a madman.  

I have yet to see a difficult content in a looter, based on skill and i think.. It wouldn't be apreciated by the playerbase. If it was really wanted it would be here already.

You have difficult content in both games if you stop using cheesy mechanics that are there for people that dont want challenge. Its quite simple actually.

What i think warframe could improve and get better is endgame party content. The only mode right now specially designed for full party is eidolons. Its not enough imo, thou Poe has none XD.. literally. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

> Game is too easy and caters to noobs

> Game is difficult, time-gating, and non-beginner-friendly

confused confusion GIF

i'm MR17, which one of these am I supposed to f---king BELIEVEEEEE-

You believe the one that you feel is accurate for you.  (unless you believe it's difficult.  Gating is not difficulty)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

> Game is too easy and caters to noobs

> Game is difficult, time-gating, and non-beginner-friendly

i'm MR17, which one of these am I supposed to f---king BELIEVEEEEE-

It's both, in different ways.

WF is difficult for beginners because it doesn't f*cking explain anything, and a lot of things work in unintuitive ways. The actual gameplay, though, is very easy once you learn all those weird quirks and pitfalls the game places in your path.

The game has a steep learning curve because there's a lot of stuff you need to memorize. It's time-gated because it's mostly a stat-based game, and improving your stats is dependent more on playtime than player skill due to the way resources are earned. And finally it has a low skill ceiling, because success or failure is mostly determined by stats, and no amount of skill can take you past challenges that you don't have the stats for.

Edited by SordidDreams

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1 hour ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make arbitrations harder. Make them more rewarding. This could be a fun game mode if it were not boring as hell. Doing 40 waves for a C cycle is absurd. Make it 20 waves. Make it scale harder. If noobs want the rewards and can't participate then, god forbid, they need to learn and meet higher skill players.

And the fact is that people would still cheese it, meaning no difficulty would actually be seen.  It would just be harder cheese and nothing would really change.
People mostly cheese the 40 minute arbitrations already...speeding that up honestly wouldn't do anything to make the game "harder" or "more challenging".

2 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make game modes that rewards based on merit and challenge.

And how do you propose to do this?
How would you make content that is honestly challenging and couldn't just be cheesed to the point where its utterly trivial?

Take any "challenge" and the playerbase will find a way to trivialize it.
For example one of the "harder" lua challenges is the endurance challenge...and yet it can be cheesed a dozen different ways if you know how, removing any and all challenge, or teamwork, from it.

How do you define "merit" in a looter-shooter where stats are king?
How do you make "challenge' that can't be cheesed, or overcome by larger numbers?

The event that introduced hive missions was supposed to be a challenge.  The enemies got tougher and tougher every time it was completed (and the meta was a lot less powerful back then), and yet people found a way to cheese it so hard that the enemies eventually hit level 9999 and then rolled back over to level 1.
Hek, people even beat the level 9999 stalker that could spawn in those missions at that level.  And again this was in a very different meta without kid mode.

2 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make it so achievement is earned rather than just showing up.

And how would you earn achievements, and again in a way that couldn't be cheesed so it becomes utterly trivial?
No matter what achievement you bring up, people will find a way to cheese it.

2 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

There is no endgame because level 35 is considered hard. 1 hr mot level should be a base starting point for a game mode.

You are looking at things with blinders on.
In the design of the game, level 35 is "high level", with levels 40-60 being "hard", and sorties being "really hard".
And for the majority of the playerbase?  That is likely close to the truth in difficulty curves.

When Venus first launched Vallis was too difficult for most players and DE had to change the difficulty.  Guess why?  Because the majority of players aren't the try-hard "Only levels 200+ are hard...." crowd that you seem to belong to.

Also endurance runs shouldn't be used as difficulty posts.  I mean you see so many endurance runs that select specific frames, go to a specific spot in specific tiles, and can then camp there for hours upon hours without moving an inch or facing any real threat of dieing.  All that is out there is cheese and more cheese that trivializes anything the game can throw at players.
Further Mot has a damage multiplier (about 3x) so that even further separates it from the standard balance curve of the rest of the game.

You really should look at the rest of the game first and take off your blinders.

45 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

why do people do this; start a thread saying we need this without actually posting any ideas in their OP? at least go the full distance and propose something less vague, so that the rest of us can discuss it. the discussion starts with YOU, OP.

Well to be fair that would require a ton more effort than showing up, whinge at everyone, and attempt to wave their e-peen in everyones faces about how "good" they are at the game and how everything should be remade to meet their definition of "challenge".

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So... care to give any ideas for improvements, then? If you can't provide any ideas and concepts to improve the game, you shouldn't post any feedback at all.

Especially not in General Discussion, where DE never looks.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Psykhe27:

- From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

Your MR means nothing, and several hours survival used to be the norm back in the day when we still had Void Keys and T4 Missions, with 1 hour being the minimum people did in order to get the most out of their keys.

 

If you want to boast, you need to try harder.

I can tell, you're one of those meta-slaves who think that using Meta-weapons that deal 1 billion damage per shot is normal and that everyone does the same. Well, you're wrong.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Anduvriel said:

and both require almost zero skill like.. well most looters do.

I disagree. PoE has mechanics that are so hard hitting, you can't ignore them. The whole idea of the game was to have boss encounters that do not end with "I'm going to kill you in 3 seconds" (altough a build occasionally crawles out to do so, cough cough Divine Ire, cough). Uber elder is a grueling and unfair fight that people take pride in doing it deathless. 500+ Depth Aul will kick your ass even as the most min-maxed character if you fail his mechanics (Mathil's 400 Aul encounter with his broken Blade Vortex build at the end of Betrayal league). PoE has a great balance of a lot of one-shotable trash and encouters that need skill and knowledge, something that Warframe lacks and desperately needs. Warframe doesn't have a boss that even comes close to the danger and complexity that Uber Elder precents.

 

1 hour ago, Anduvriel said:

What i think warframe could improve and get better is endgame party content. The only mode right now specially designed for full party is eidolons. Its not enough imo, thou Poe has none XD.. literally. 

The best way to farm currency in PoE is with 5-6 people parties. I have over 1k hours in PoE, with 96-98 characters in 4 different leagues and altough most of the content is soloable, partying greatly benefits the players, something that Warframe again fails to balance. Partying in Warframe is mandatory if you want to be efficient, while in PoE it is mandatory only if you want to be cutting edge.

 

Edited by Highresist
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