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Psykhe27

Game is too easy and caters to noobs

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2 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

- From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

Right...

Will somebody do the math of how much grinding you need to grind in order to be MR 27 in 125 days?! 

That's a lot of grinding, man. 

Now... That said. 

Game could use an overhaul for the later levels--probably reusing assets(like weapons and mods we already have access to,) and granting some of those to the enemies. Just a wild idea, really. However, I still don't understand the craze of pushing yourself to do Mastery Ranks when they mean very little past 16. Also, which frame are you using in order to do 4 hours survival? If it's Inaros with a Meme Strike Zaw and Rage/Life Strike, you can gtfo right now and not look back. Really! Also, also, the game can be a fair bit challenging to new players. They still get one shot by those drone grenades the Corpus use, for example. And some of the later planets scale armor a bit too high for their ol' 30 capacity Heks, and whatnot. 

Lastly, if you want challenge, do a different build with a different frame. I dunno, go make a melee-oriented Trin and support a team in Arbitration. Some of those 'noobs' would actually appreciate it.

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1 minute ago, YazMatazO said:

ill somebody do the math of how much grinding you need to grind in order to be MR 27 in 125 days?! 

People are MR27 with Sub 250 hours of gameplay. 125 login days is not something out of the ordinary. (expecting 400-500 hours)

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

This thread is beyond obvious bait.

What gave it away? The reaching MR27 in 125 days, or the 4-hour survivals? :laugh:

 

That said, even if OP is trolling, they are echoing how a lot of veteran players feel (as far as frustration at lack of challenge goes, anyway). 

Doesn't hurt to remind folks that DE are acutely aware of this, to the point they've mentioned it in the last 2 dev streams. Unfortunately they don't seem to have figured out a solution yet, much less how & when they are going to implement it. So a fair bit of patience may be necessary.

 

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Il y a 2 heures, sleepychewbacca a dit :

Everyone should be welcomed, not shoved against a learning curve wall. 

Drop that mod (or mods), go with the non-meta. Use a dragon key. The challenge is there. We can find it. Heck, grab four friends and do a survival challenge with a Javlok, and the only mod you're allowed is heavy caliber. Found a workaround to cheese this? Restrict yourself more. That's challenge there. 

No, it isn't. If a progression based game forces you to drop your progression to have an engaging fight, the game is designed wrong. Period. 

Also, on the first point. I agree. But you see, while a game should welcome everyone and not hide itself behind artificial entry barriers, at the same time a game shouldn't entirely forget about its more invested players and forego even trying to include content that's engaging for top end players. 

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1 minute ago, Highresist said:

People are MR27 with Sub 250 hours of gameplay. 125 login days is not something out of the ordinary. (expecting 400-500 hours)

Well, that actually tells me something about the player. I am not sure you will follow my logic, but there is real irony here. Just read on. 

The player needs to adopt only a few (mind-numbing)strategies about grinding. DE making those strategies fairly easy to spot and use, and allows a player to hit max rank within such a short time span. Surely that means that they are also oriented towards more casual players. But then the casual player only ever needs to spend time repeating the few strats, and never really understands more about the game. After that the same casual player begins thinking he is actually good at the game, and makes a comment that the game is catering to, shall we call it, 'casual' players, where they themselves have done repeatedly, and mostly one and the same thing. That's why I asked which frame he is using, because if it's 4 hours survival with Inaros and Maiming Strike Zaw, he is literal S#&$e at the game... 

Of course, I'd much rather the player themselves say which frame in particular they are so 'oh so good' at. 

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1 minute ago, Autongnosis said:

No, it isn't. If a progression based game forces you to drop your progression to have an engaging fight, the game is designed wrong. Period. 

Also, on the first point. I agree. But you see, while a game should welcome everyone and not hide itself behind artificial entry barriers, at the same time a game shouldn't entirely forget about its more invested players and forego even trying to include content that's engaging for top end players. 

I can concede to this. 

However, from a practical point of view (feel free to disagree), I don't see how it can work. Enemies, damage, etc, all need a rework. I don't think content as it is right now can be truly engaging, and if anything will lead to the next e-peen flex. There's always a workaround to trivialise it, and you'll have it as casual bragging. 

The way I see it, is that for what we have right now, we can make the best with it. Heck, I do. When I'm bored, I crack out that weapon I've forgotten about, slap a meme build on it and go explore. Doubly so when you have clanmates, or a irl companion who can jump in the same and just do things for S#&$ and giggles. Gimping, yeah technically.

But then again, when you've hit max progression, is it wrong design to find what amuses you? I mean, I am speaking from the MR27 perspective and a 509/509 hoarder. This is what I find to be challenging. I'm not advocating this as the be-all-end-all, just saying that it works for me. Why not give it a try? It's something, until DE gives it to us. 

True endgame? Maybe, one day. I'd suggest this post be moved to Feedback. GD is merely going to be a bunch of discussion, and nothing else constructive. 

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3 часа назад, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 сказал:

> Game is too easy and caters to noobs

> Game is difficult, time-gating, and non-beginner-friendly

confused confusion GIF

i'm MR17, which one of these am I supposed to f---king BELIEVEEEEE-

Time gating has nothing to do with difficulty. 

Being not beginner friendly has nothing to do with being difficult either.

And I wanna see even one that isnt trolling and calling warframe difficult in 2019.

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11 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

No, it isn't. If a progression based game forces you to drop your progression to have an engaging fight, the game is designed wrong. Period. 

Good so you've noticed the Paradox... the Progression Based games are always going to get easier the better your gear becomes...

Hence you can see The issue if you decide you want a challenge from a Game design methodology that literally cannot give you one...

So yeah... you want a challenge ? Remove your mods.... 

BTW doing that isn't actually going to make the game challenging but I doubt they're going to figure it out....

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7 minutes ago, YazMatazO said:

The player needs to adopt only a few (mind-numbing)strategies about grinding. DE making those strategies fairly easy to spot and use, and allows a player to hit max rank within such a short time span. Surely that means that they are also oriented towards more casual players.

Not necessarely, again Path of Exile is a great example of reaching max level is easy if you follow the most efficient path to do so, but the game is clearly trying to balance casual and hardcore gameplay.
 

9 minutes ago, YazMatazO said:

But then the casual player only ever needs to spend time repeating the few strats, and never really understands more about the game. After that the same casual player begins thinking he is actually good at the game, and makes a comment that the game is catering to, shall we call it, 'casual' players, where they themselves have done repeatedly, and mostly one and the same thing.

During all the grind a player would, not doubt, aquier a good amount of knowledge about the game, not everything you need to know, but still vast enough, that discarding it as "oh you just grinded Hydron for a 150 hours" is not a valid argument against it. He would have knowledge about all the frames and all of the weapons and how they handle.

 

11 minutes ago, YazMatazO said:

That's why I asked which frame he is using, because if it's 4 hours survival with Inaros and Maiming Strike Zaw, he is literal S#&$e at the game... 

Does it matter? I'm "maining" (as using the word loosely, as she is my most played frame) Saryn and the game can not throw a good end game mode at me. Ok she is broken, I switch to my Equinox, Mesa, Excal - same picture. If it is not Inaros it is Rhino, Nidus even Hyldrin - same exact thing.

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3 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

meet higher skill players.

lol

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1 hour ago, Anduvriel said:

statistics show that 90% of its playerbase have not even seen 90% of the content.

maybe cos path of exile is a pile of unoptimized garbage? maybe most players quit not cos difficulty but from frustration of constant freezes, glitches, crushes, disconnects?

maybe cos about 10% can run this game with satisfactory performance level?

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17 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Good so you've noticed the Paradox... the Progression Based games are always going to get easier the better your gear becomes...

Hence you can see The issue if you decide you want a challenge from a Game design methodology that literally cannot give you one...

Or the content scales up with more gear you get? There is nothing wrong with exclusive content based on gear. World of Warcraft has lived on that phylosophy for 14 years (and died as soon as they started pandering to the "acessability" audiance) . It gives the players something to strive for, instead of artificially time gating them with reputation system that has a daily cap, based on mastery rank for weapons that are absolutely irrelevant, because a MR4 shotgun can clear the whole game without any issues.
The whole argument of "Warframe is a looter, thus it has to be easy, because all looters are" falls flat when Path of Exile exists. 
There is a balance between having content for casual players and having one for hardcore without compromising either. Many games have achieved it in the past, why shouldn't be possible for Warframe? Damage scaling, Armor scaling, Health scaling... These are all numbers. Instead of "rebalancing" rivens every 3 months, which is completely useless, we can have a better scaling system that would unlock the path to better endgame content, shouldn't we? 

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19 minutes ago, YazMatazO said:

Well, that actually tells me something about the player. I am not sure you will follow my logic, but there is real irony here. Just read on. 

The player needs to adopt only a few (mind-numbing)strategies about grinding. DE making those strategies fairly easy to spot and use, and allows a player to hit max rank within such a short time span. Surely that means that they are also oriented towards more casual players. But then the casual player only ever needs to spend time repeating the few strats, and never really understands more about the game. After that the same casual player begins thinking he is actually good at the game, and makes a comment that the game is catering to, shall we call it, 'casual' players, where they themselves have done repeatedly, and mostly one and the same thing. That's why I asked which frame he is using, because if it's 4 hours survival with Inaros and Maiming Strike Zaw, he is literal S#&$e at the game... 

Of course, I'd much rather the player themselves say which frame in particular they are so 'oh so good' at. 

Well that is one of the other problems this game has.

Even though there are multiple ways to accomplish things, some players have that "min / max" mentality, where they just want to do everything as fast as possible and anything else is just a waste of time. Treating the game like a job or chore, instead of something to have fun with.

And I completely agree that trivialising content with "cheese" gear doesn't make you good at the game. It just means you've farmed / traded enough to get OP gear.

In one way, I would say they are causing their own problems by refusing to explore and experiment, especially given that DE haven't been designing the game with "end game content" in mind. That said, the devs have recognised this is an issue and will hopefully figure out a solution before too long.

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1 minute ago, Highresist said:

I disagree. PoE has mechanics that are so hard hitting, you can't ignore them. The whole idea of the game was to have boss encounters that do not end with "I'm going to kill you in 3 seconds" (even though here and there the crawles out a build that do, cough cough Divine Ire, cough). Uber elder is a grueling and unfair fight that people take pride in doing it deathless. 500+ Depth Aul will kick your ass even as the most min-maxed character if you try to ignore his mechanics. PoE has a great balance of a lot of one-shotable trash and encouters that need skill and knowledge, something that Warframe lacks and desperately needs.

 

The best way to farm currency in PoE is with 5-6 people parties. I have over 1k hours in PoE, with 96-98 characters in 4 different leagues and altough most of the content is soloable, partying greatly benefits the players, something that Warframe again fails to balance. Partying in Warframe is mandatory if you want to be efficient, while in PoE it is mandatory only if you want to be cutting edge.

 

I dont agree, there is actually no difference.

Bombards lvl 3000 are far more hard hitting than any hard hitting thing in Poe or any Aul 500. They oneshot you 3000 times XD. I know Poe advertising, the great idea, it is long gone.. Same as in warframe, i imagine it was a difficult game when it started. Uber elder is cheese on the developer side. There is nothing difficult about it nor requiring skill, just basic abilities like be in, not out of this gigantic circle. It has a gear and build check ofc same as.. an eidolon. Take banshee with mote and do a tridolon solo. That is your uber elder right there for an average warframe player, undoable.. almost? If you do that you can be proud.. And i mean it. 

Grindy to get cheese? Aye. Difficult with cheese..? Nah. Difficult without cheese? Aye as much as you want them to be. 

Does 99% of the community in Poe and warframe use 1 to maybe 2 buttons to destroy everything? Aye.

Does all but literally few endgame bosses are getting one shot and only because they have stages or similar disabling mechanics? Aye. 

Are there cheesing mechanics that most of endgame community use to cheese all danger besides oneshots? Aye. 

Is basically the only threat in the game forced on you with ridicolous one shots that basically cant be skillfully dodged most of the time? Aye

Same games regarding difficulty. No skill, just knowledge and grind. Poe just requires more of both and instead of time gating like wf, gates content with huge amount of grind or trading as it is the "hardcore" one. 

Party play is non existant in Poe. Its running simulator where you mostly are not even allowed to kill if you are not the quantity culler, thats endgame, and lower is a shytstorm of fireworks that makes you want to puke eyeballs out.. that is similar to volt capture speed running competition if volt had triple the speed, equinox damage and range and mobs exploded in mirage discoballs. Warframe has 100 times better party play than Poe which has the worst out of any looter i played. 

Tldr. If you want challenge dont use cheese.. Every looter is easy (and tastes good ;p) with cheese. And warframe can be actually difficult if you dont resort to opie stuff. 

The only thing i want is something like raids so there is more endgame party activties. Maybe difficulty lvls for enemy scaling and its fine. Looters dont have overcomplicated AI that will challenge your "skill" that just scales poorly with better and better gear as when you oneshot stuff its AI.. Well doesnt matter. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Anduvriel said:

Uber elder is cheese on the developer side. There is nothing difficult about it nor requiring skill, just basic abilities like be in, not out of this gigantic circle. It has a gear and build check ofc same as.. an eidolon.

How can you even compare the 2. Eidolon is a "Stack VS - 1 shot the shield, Chroma 1 shot the joint, repeat". Uber Elder has 8 different types of attacks that you should avoid and 2 add phases with half of the boss abilities in between. There is nothing in common between the 2 things. One is a boss encounter that represents a real danager of failing to a min-maxed character, the other is "how fast can I kill that thing, so I can do more runs in one night cycle". Give me a break 😄 . I can discredit everything after that statement, because it just ruined your credability.

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3 minutes ago, Atekron said:

maybe cos path of exile is a pile of unoptimized garbage? maybe most players quit not cos difficulty but from frustration of constant freezes, glitches, crushes, disconnects?

maybe cos about 10% can run this game with satisfactory performance level?

I understand you fully, played this season as well, at least tried. The statistics are from few leagues ago, the developer themselves gave them somewhere,.. like one from previous league i "loved" - 40% average time spent in hideoutXd. 

And sry for putting so much of PoE here, dont want to derail the topic, just i see it as a great opportunity to show how a game that basically is build around what OP wants fails in it and why and how it can be used in the disscussion about warframe.

I really feel after probably like 2k hours in Poe and 1.3k in warframe, around 2k in d3 and many in other looters that the only way to produce challenge is through self noncheesing and mechanical/timing challenges of party play. 

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5 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Or the content scales up with more gear you get? There is nothing wrong with exclusive content based on gear.

Thats one option but you know.... DE can't put out content faster than players can burn through it and Power Creep will reach exponential levels if they had to reward those players every time they moved up a tier...

But those aren't the issue.... 

Heres the real issue...

If the game just scales along side you then the experience from doing level 10 missions is going to feel identical to level 100 missions... you see the issue ? 

10 minutes ago, Highresist said:

There is a balance between having content for casual players and having one for hardcore without compromising either. Many games have achieved it in the past, why shouldn't be possible for Warframe? Damage scaling, Armor scaling, Health scaling... These are all numbers. Instead of "rebalancing" rivens every 3 months, which is completely useless, we can have a better scaling system that would unlock the path to better endgame content, shouldn't we?

I mean.... you could.... What I do when I want a challenge is play something else...something that was designed to be challenging first and a looter 2nd (or not at all) 

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54 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

No, it isn't. If a progression based game forces you to drop your progression to have an engaging fight, the game is designed wrong. Period. 

Alternative supposition, people who min/max and refuse to lift a finger to make their gameplay experience engaging are lazy and unskillful. 

Warframe is a game that can be as easy or challenging as you choose for it to be, choosing to min max and have no challenge doesn't mean one is possessing of skill and that isn't on the devs. If you want a game designed wrong, design a game around the min/max meta and see how fast it collapses with nothing at the base to hold up the pyramid. 

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19 минут назад, Lutesque сказал:

I mean.... you could.... What I do when I want a challenge is play something else...something that was designed to be challenging first and a looter 2nd (or not at all) 

Right because games like Destiny or Borderlands just dont exist, lets pretend so.

Also lold at idea that a looter is ultimately a noob fiesta by default.

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2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Heres the real issue...

If the game just scales along side you then the experience from doing level 10 missions is going to feel identical to level 100 missions... you see the issue ? 

It depends how the developers handle it. It can either be a jorney or a mid numbing process. Warframe started a Jorney for me but I hit the ceiling so quickly, I didn't even understand I did.

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3 hours ago, Highresist said:

This is intentionally gimping yourself for the sake of finding a challenge, rather than the game testing you at your best, which it should do

Or it did, and you still won.  Can you not accept that outcome?  

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Just now, Highresist said:

How can you even compare the 2. Eidolon is a "Stack VS - 1 shot the shield, Chroma 1 shot the joint, repeat". Uber Elder has 8 different types of attacks that you should avoid and 2 add phases with half of the boss abilities in between. There is nothing in common between the 2 things. One is a boss encounter that represents a real danager of failing, the other is "how fast can I kill that thing, so I can do more runs in one night cycle". Give me a break 😄 . I can discredit everything after that statement, because it just ruined your credability.

I compared uber elder fight for an average Poe player to a solo tridolon capture with banshee and a mote amp.

Sick challenge isnt it?

Is tridolon hard? Nah when you cheese it in party... or as Uber is cheesed with uber farming builds that laugh from everything he throws at them, i am waiting for snooze afk build for it.

Read before judging .

And Gary and Harry have a lot of attacks, most will oneshot you. You just probably never did a solo tridolon 🙂

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How about we just let the game be a power fantasy, as it is meant to be, and just throw in a sign saying "Dark Souls this way" for all the people who complain about difficulty.

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20 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Not necessarely, again Path of Exile is a great example of reaching max level is easy if you follow the most efficient path to do so, but the game is clearly trying to balance casual and hardcore gameplay.

You literally try to disagree with me by pointing to another grinding game, then give the example of following the most efficient path to lvl up quickly!!! MAN, WHERE IS THE LOGIC?! 

Also, in Path of Exile the devs like to control the end-game builds a lot. Over there it's not melee, it's range. 

23 minutes ago, Highresist said:

During all the grind a player would, not doubt, acquire a good amount of knowledge about the game, not everything you need to know, but still vast enough, that discarding it as "oh you just ground Hydron for a 150 hours" is not a valid argument against it. He would have knowledge about all the frames and all of the weapons and how they handle.

I did not point to a particular type of content. I actually allowed for some variation there by saying 'few strats.' But I will admit that I am very suspicious that they, themselves used that node in particular a lot. I am also very doubtful that they have knowledge about the frames, because that would require putting formas in your frames, i.e., better developing a build so as to take it to deeper, and hopefully various content. Whereas they clearly showed that they have been leveling frames and equipment to 30 and probably not touching them again, because that would numerically show on their play time.  

 

27 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Does it matter? I'm "maining" (as using the word loosely, as she is my most played frame) Saryn and the game can not throw a good end game mode at me. Ok she is broken, I switch to my Equinox, Mesa, Excal - same picture. If it is not Inaros it is Rhino, Nidus even Hyldrin - same exact thing.

Well... you see, I doubt you can easily take the rest of the frames you mentioned through 4 hours survivals. Even your ol' Saryn won't do well there, particularly if you build her for 8 waves of ESO. If you build here with survival in mind and use cc, and take advantage of her decent armor, then I'd agree. 

Matter of fact, I think most of the player base would have hard time doing 4 hours survival without having something that allows for easy farming of life modules from the enemies. Surely something like Inaros. And even he would struggle in Grineer survivals, because he won't be able to kill as quickly--he would need truly a godly Zaw for that, actually, and probably some other support weapon to go with it, as well.  

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Just now, -Temp0- said:

Right because games like Destiny or Borderlands just dont exist, lets pretend so.

Also lold at ide that a looter is ultimately a noob first by default.

I know jack S#&$ about Destiny but isn't  Borderlands just another Grind to kill enemies to get better loot which you use to become better at killing enemies to get even better loot.... etc...

Same with monster hunter.

Is this what you call a challenge ? 

Go ahead.... say yes.... it would make it easier to ignore you... :) 

3 minutes ago, Highresist said:

It depends how the developers handle it. It can either be a jorney or a mid numbing process. Warframe started a Jorney for me but I hit the ceiling so quickly, I didn't even understand I did.

If you want an example of this done properly you should try any one of Super Giant Game's Games.

 

3 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

How about we just let the game be a power fantasy, as it is meant to be, and just throw in a sign saying "Dark Souls this way" for all the people who complain about difficulty.

You Know. !! :) 

 

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