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Psykhe27

Game is too easy and caters to noobs

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The only real challenge a game like this could have is making enemies harder to hit.    Everything else is either already part of the game or not a challenge (enemies with aoe map nukes).

Unless you are like me and have a physical limitation, there can be no real difficulty to a shooter once you have acquired the needed knowledge to play at top level.  The only challenge is acquiring that knowledge in the first place.  Once you got it you are set.

 

I think that is part of the issue.  Vets (generally) want to return to that feeling when they had started and didn’t have the knowledge that trivializes content.  Too bad you can’t hit a mental undo.  You can’t go back, and short of completely redoing the way you play the game, there is not much the devs can do to get you back there for more than a couple minutes (new stuff).

 

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I'm only MR 16 at 1400+ hrs, started playing in 2014. I still suck at spy missions because my coordination with hacking on full sortie terminal on consoles (XB1) stresses me out. That is my challenge and I gladly let others hack the consoles for me haha. Sometimes I get stuck being the only one with a stealth frame and it is left up to me. I tend to take too long on those missions or praying that my MOA can see the console and hack it for me. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

I'm only MR 16 at 1400+ hrs, started playing in 2014. I still suck at spy missions because my coordination with hacking on full sortie terminal on consoles (XB1) stresses me out. That is my challenge and I gladly let others hack the consoles for me haha. Sometimes I get stuck being the only one with a stealth frame and it is left up to me. I tend to take too long on those missions or praying that my MOA can see the console and hack it for me. 

 

 

Well FWIW you can craft ciphers that will insta-hack terminals. Its pretty quick and they don't cost much.

My bugbear with spy missions, is often finding out how to get to the terminals once I'm within 30m or so (there is nearly always some fiendish hard-to-find route to them).

I've found going into Operator mode can help traversing some of the more difficult areas and bypassing sentries etc. using Void Dash.

I don't have any stealth frames yet (well I literally just got Loki but he's still unranked) so being spotted by guards or cameras is the biggest problem for me - after finding a route through to the terminals.

 

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5 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

 

Both, of course. :wink:

It all depends where you are at in the game. I'm MR11 myself and still find some things very challenging (Eidolon hunts, Nightmare missions) and some things impossible (Sorties).

Thats what so many complainers fail to realise. They are so blinkered and thinking only of themselves (or possibly a few friends in the same position), instead of realising there is a huge player base, of all abilities.

 

wtf I'm mr 12 and can cheese all the content warframe has to offer :A

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2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Nothing.... as soon as they sat down to make a Gear Based progression Game they sealed their fate.... theres no un-#*!%ing what they already #*!%ed up.

But that doesn't mean the game needs to be more frustrating 

 

I wouldn't be so sure.

The devs are all too aware of the problem and are looking at ways to address the "endgame issue".

It might take them a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with something. Of course not everyone will like it...but then you can say the same about pretty much the entire game.

 

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Il y a 7 heures, Psykhe27 a dit :

- From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

In Warframe, MR means nothing.

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The problem is that difficulty in this game is pretty much "just add more damage and enemy health lol good enough". Which for your idea of '1 hour mot survival base level', would mean only a few frames would actually be viable because all other frames would insta die. I do agree there should be more difficult content but I don't think just throwing more health and damage at enemies is the way to do it.

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7 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make arbitrations harder. Make them more rewarding. This could be a fun game mode if it were not boring as hell.

How, exactly? Like, how harder should be Arbitration, what better rewards should they have?

7 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make game modes that rewards based on merit and challenge.

What gamemode, and which rewards? Like, i would accept if the game makes a gamemode where you find Nitain Extract and Orokin Catalyst/Reactors blueprints at certain rotations (but not that much common), but if you don't specify what kind of rewards you want, people would ask you about that.

 

7 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make it so achievement is earned rather than just showing up.

What exactly do you mean about Achievements?

7 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

There is no endgame because level 35 is considered hard. 1 hr mot level should be a base starting point for a game mode.

I think you forgot about ESO, Arbitrations, level 40-60 bounties and sorties... Like, those doesn't start at level 35.

 

7 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

- From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

Can i say this? Mastery Rank doesn't mean nothing, aside to unlocking weapons and increasing standing limit. Yes, you may be MR27... And so?

Even with the days you logged in and the fact you can do 4h survivals, it doesn't matter much. You have free time? Alright, but you realize that doing 4h survival and reaching the max mastery rank in 125 days means little to nothing?

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6 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

> doesn't give any ideas on how to reward players based on merit and challenge.

> doesn't give any ideas on how achievement can be earned.

why do people do this; start a thread saying we need this without actually posting any ideas in their OP? at least go the full distance and propose something less vague, so that the rest of us can discuss it. the discussion starts with YOU, OP.

Harder arbitration scaling. Wave 20 or 25 min mark is level 120. Wave 40 is 200.

Rewards every 5 waves like normal missions. Current system incentivizes waiting for excavations.

 

Include other rivens other than archguns as rewards. Add more cosmetics. Arbitrations would be fun were they a challenge. The only challenge is staying awake for 40 waves of easy content.

 

Endless defense mode could be fun but they need to make something out of the ordinary and have some cool rewards. Even just easier to get ship, frame and operator cosmetics. 15 vitus or whatever it is for a statue or 25 for an emote. Yikes. That is basically  4 hours for something minor.

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8 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

noobs

Argument discarded

8 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

Weird flex but ok.

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Il y a 4 heures, Lutesque a dit :

1) Then do an endless mission....

2) And it was solved long before I started playing... 

3) Honestly I could careless whether these additions are challenging or not.... my argument has always been they just simply aren't enjoyable... its a game....I think whats far more enjoyable is more important than wether its hard or not.

1) ye, 2 hours of mad boredom for a bit of enjoyment. I try but man, do you know how incredibly frustrating it is to run around for 120mins where the biggest threqt to your survival is your own Glaive misfiring or hitting the hitbox of a void reactant drop (why do they even have hitboxes is beyond me)? I mean, this could easily be solved if at least DE gave us some way to ibcrease starting mission level

2) not sure i understand you tbh

3) i agree, but i want you to think about this: why is it that the subset of the population that enjoy at least some measure of challenge and engagement gets continuously ignored and shafted? 

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Question here isn't "is the game too easy", is more like, "is it worth playing the game when it's hard?"
Like OP prides himself in doing 4 hour survivals, me i laugh at his try-hard e-peen wanna be "leetness"...
There's simply no reason to brag about doing 4 hour survivals, because:
1) It's not about how good you are, it's about what builds you bring, it's about exploiting and meta-gaming, not about skill... If you told me "i do 4 hour solo infested survivals with No-forma mag", then i'd be kinda impressed.
2) It's useless, it's a waste of your most limited resource, time. 4 hours survival to get the same rewards you'd get doing anything else.

So, this whole subject needs to be boiled down to defining 2 things:
a) What's a fun challenge?
b) What's rewarding content?

My answer for a) would be something like OP and a lot of people have been asking, but with some caveats.
First the way mobs scale needs to be linear instead of exponential, and there needs to be a cap to levels. Because it's not fun when you can only do it with very specific builds that limit your choices.

Don't get me wrong, for it to be challenging, there needs to be care about your build, and you need to know how to build, and probably not all warframes should work as effectively, but the choices must be vaster than a half a dozen warframes from the ~40 base warframes we have to choose from. At least 60-70% should be viable, ideally all, but that's pretty much an utopia, there'll always be some duds in the roster.

The game already does a good job of throwing new mobs as the levels scale, but it's still kind of meh. I'd suggest after every 10 rotation C you'd get a demi-boss. Something of equal challenge to the wolf (or why not, just get assassin's spawning after each C, that'd get people going past C). Then every 2 C rotations, you'd get a proper boss fight.

As for boss fights, less timed immunities, less disabling Warframe abilities, and more skill shots and mechanics. The exploiter was a pretty good design, with coordination needed to keep it from getting healed, while at the same time needing to interact with fissures, and having to do the double shot of throwing and hitting the canisters. It was a cool design. Would be better if the damage phases were based around shooting the area where we'd removed the part during the "hero cutscene".

I'd also probably tie CC effectiveness to Power Strength, so that warframes with enough power strength could go through the boss's CC.

b) Is a bit harder to improve. I'd start with removing filler mods from all rotations. Basically get common mods to stop dropping after lvl 10 maps, uncommon after lvl 25. Second if anything has a less than 1% chance to drop, it has to drop from common enemies.

My favourite example of how stupid things get with rewards are Archwing mods and Condition overload. You have drop chances lower or equal to 1% from mobs that drop somewhat rarely from single maps. Then you wonder why people don't like Archwing? Well, the answer is because it's impossible to find the mods for them!!

Also, change how relics drop, make each reward rotation drop 3-4 relics at most, so this way instead of congregating to specific missions, people get to spread out and pick the map that drops the relics they need. This not only allows more PUG squads in all the map, but also makes people more keen to relic farm, since they can see progress, instead of how currently is where you can run the same mission dozens of times before you see the relic you actually want.

Tie more rewards to currencies, this was what made GW2 so fun. I'd just run the dungeon, barely care about what i looted, because what i really wanted was the currencies, and i'd buy the stuff i needed.

Get cool stuff on the random rewards for repeatable content. Drop a dye unlock in the arbitration table that unlocks a single color (no repeats), and i guarantee you that people will want to do that more often than for Endo.

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2 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

I wouldn't be so sure.

The devs are all too aware of the problem and are looking at ways to address the "endgame issue".

It might take them a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with something. Of course not everyone will like it...but then you can say the same about pretty much the entire game.

 

Doesn't matter who does or doesn't like it.... the game's foundation cannot support Challenging Game play. 

If I know this game's track record... they won't find a solution. They will find a distraction to stop us from thinking about it.

5 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

1) ye, 2 hours of mad boredom for a bit of enjoyment. I try but man, do you know how incredibly frustrating it is to run around for 120mins where the biggest threqt to your survival is your own Glaive misfiring or hitting the hitbox of a void reactant drop (why do they even have hitboxes is beyond me)? I mean, this could easily be solved if at least DE gave us some way to ibcrease starting mission level

Just pretend that that the purpose of this setup is to Challenge your ability to stay awake. 

If thats not Hard core I don't know what is 😉

7 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

 

3) i agree, but i want you to think about this: why is it that the subset of the population that enjoy at least some measure of challenge and engagement gets continuously ignored and shafted

Because the game's design literally can't give them what they want... 

 

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8 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

Make arbitrations harder. Make them more rewarding. This could be a fun game mode if it were not boring as hell. Doing 40 waves for a C cycle is absurd. Make it 20 waves. Make it scale harder. If noobs want the rewards and can't participate then, god forbid, they need to learn and meet higher skill players.

 

Make game modes that rewards based on merit and challenge.

 

Make it so achievement is earned rather than just showing up.

 

There is no endgame because level 35 is considered hard. 1 hr mot level should be a base starting point for a game mode.

 

 

- From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

Game not supposed to be hard. Evident in design. Moving on. 

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2 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Game not supposed to be hard. Evident in design. Moving on. 

Hence why people trickle away and fashion frame care bears stay who complain about difficulty of anything that requires proper modding and strategy

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2 hours ago, CodeUltimate said:

wtf I'm mr 12 and can cheese all the content warframe has to offer :A

Well I guess thats why they say MR has little correlation with ability to play the game - or at least beat the content.

Its quite possible to farm all the gear you need to do the content, while only doing the first few mastery ranks.

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2 minutes ago, Psykhe27 said:

Hence why people trickle away and fashion frame care bears stay who complain about difficulty of anything that requires proper modding and strategy

If Warframe withers and dies, that's the way it goes. I'm fine with difficulty; it's just not a game where "being difficult" is particularly appropriate. 

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18 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

1) It's not about how good you are, it's about what builds you bring, it's about exploiting and meta-gaming, not about skill... If you told me "i do 4 hour solo infested survivals with No-forma mag", then i'd be kinda impressed.
2) It's useless, it's a waste of your most limited resource, time. 4 hours survival to get the same rewards you'd get doing anything else.

Some people who want "harder" content want content that starts around 100 or 200.  I don't think people are asking for content to start at level 4000.

Now every frame is viable at level 200 - but it is significantly more challenging than level 35. And I, for one, would like to be able to START a mission around 100 or 200 with a variety of frames and weapons and not have to wait an hour for the enemies to scale there.  I find it enjoyable to use frames that aren't pure tanks or invisi-cheese at these levels.

I want this because of your point 2 - to save time.  And at level 100-200 its not restricted to exploiting and meta-gaming.

 

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2 hours ago, Awazx said:

In Warframe, MR means nothing.

No. It means something in this case: How much time did you spend in the freaking game leveling things and how big is the 💩bucket.

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9 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

The game needs to cater to players of all skill levels...including noobs.

DE are trying to figure out how to provide more challenging content for veterans, without screwing up the game for everyone else.

 

In the meantime, if you're bored - go play another game. Elitist tryhards like you make up a small percentage of the player base, so DE aren't going to jump to your command.

 

 

While I agree with your core statement, I don't think it should apply to a game mode you can only unlock if you stay long enough to clear all 258 missions in the game. That's an undertaking that excludes noobs in execution and should not be part of the equation.

Otherwise, "figuring out how to provide more challenging content for veterans, without screwing up the game for everyone else." would be akin to beating DMC5 in Dante Must Die difficulty only for the next difficulty (Heaven or Hell) to be accessible to noobs who never played DMC5 before.

Something's got to give. You can't go left and right at once.

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4 hours ago, DerGreif2 said:

The thing is: there is nothing for vets... this is the problem.

Because vets literally obliterate any and all content directed at them.

Its been like this since the advent of gaming as a whole, People can beat Dark Souls with a bloody GUITAR HERO CONTROLLER because they've done it so much that its like second nature.

MMO raids stop being difficult because they are often just a sequence of events, once you have that sequence of events memorized it becomes a DDR simulator that its considered "on farm" and has to have weekly caps placed on them so players can't get literally everything in one day.

Players in Warframe can fight level 1000+ enemies because of how heavily they can cheese the game to the point where level 1000 enemies are the same as level 1 enemies to them.

The content for "vets" is there, they just don't realize that there's nothing that can actually challenge them anymore, and that there never will be anything like that first climb up the learning curve again. The sooner people realize that they are now no longer challenged, not because DE is catering to new players or unskilled ones, not because of some conspiracy to make "vets" leave, but because the "vets" can Thanos Snap everything in the game out of existence and somehow demand that something they can't defeat be made.

You can't un-learn how to ride a bike to get the challenge of learning how again, that's how experience and learned skill work.

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1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

No. It means something in this case: How much time did you spend in the freaking game leveling things and how big is the 💩bucket.

You mean like over 1k posts on the game's forums? 😄

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1 hour ago, Aldain said:

You can't un-learn how to ride a bike to get the challenge of learning how again, that's how experience and learned skill work.

I do have this baseball bat...

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

You mean like over 1k posts on the game's forums? 😄

If so, then I'm a no lifer.

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5 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

If so, then I'm a no lifer.

At first I wanted to write over 100, but I'd say that is easily achievable in the Bug reports section alone. Maybe you just have a looot of those? 😅

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