Game is too easy and caters to noobs

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2019-05-07 at 7:15 AM, Jiminez_Burial said:

You believe the one that you feel is accurate for you.  (unless you believe it's difficult.  Gating is not difficulty)

 

On 2019-05-07 at 5:50 AM, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

> Game is too easy and caters to noobs

> Game is difficult, time-gating, and non-beginner-friendly

i'm MR17, which one of these am I supposed to f---king BELIEVEEEEE-

What this game needs is dedicated servers for a Diablo 2 Hardcore style of play where your Operator is Immortal, but if you die in-mission, your weapons and frame DON’T COME BACK.

And then introduce exclusive “hardcore” cosmetics and watch the collective player base explode...lol 😆 

[AshenHaze]

I think folk need to consider the fact that even a max rank Cautious Shot (-99% self damage) will still result in a player being one-shot.

-99% damage and still being one shot. 

That's why this game is so freaking easy, the power bloat has been creeping upward exponentially and DE just doesn't seem to care. 

[Gamma745]

On 2019-05-12 at 12:53 AM, Chipputer said:

What noisy tryhards are you seeing, here? For every one person wanting higher level content there's fifteen people saying, "don't like it don't play, tryhard."
There's no discussion to be had because the flood of people telling us our opinions don't matter drown out the few who disagree but want to entertain actual discussion.

Using terms like, "force," and phrases like, "get out," when discussing these ideas are both intellectually dishonest and childish, respectively. None of this is what's happening.

You want to discuss this? I'll start by explaining why I am highly skeptical on the so-called "challenging content".

 

First, what do people generally asked for when they want a challenge? The first answer would be something that can stand up to their over-powered gear. But what exactly can stand up to any combination of: triple-stack Banshee's Sonar, max Chroma Vex Armor (this one can stack among multiple Chroma too), "God"-roll Rivened Lanka/Rubico, Harrow's Covenant Retaliation, any max strength elemental infusion (Smite Infusion, Fireball Frenzy, Shock Trooper, Venom Dose, Freeze Force), Nova's Molecular Prime, Rhino's Roar, Ivara's Artemis Bow, and so forth? The result would be a damage-sponge that makes the old Wolf of Saturn Six looks fragile in comparison. That would lead to the META not just be a better option, but an outright requirement to even do anything in there. Make it slightly lenient and the boss or content would be quickly trivialized, and we're back to usual.

Invincibility phases - Yes, because people loved those invulnerability phases, alright /s. It also doesn't help when people just make quick work of the target as soon as the invincibility wears off, negating any movement the target makes.

Then just makes some abilities nullified - Notice how a lot of the abilities I mentioned are self or team buffs. How do you nullify buffs? Stalker Dispel or a blanket Nullifier field all over the map? It would incite cry of foul for "taking the Warframe out of Warframe", "Why bother having any Warframe at all?"

 

The second problem to challenge is the other side. How do you create a threat to our Warframe? How do you reasonably create a legitimate threat to outright INVINCIBILITY? Limbo's Cataclysm/Banish, Valkyr's Hysteria, Harrow's Covenant, Revenant's Mesmer Skin, and to a lesser extent, Zephyr's Turbulence and Nyx's Assimilate Absorb?

Make the attacks ignore Invincibility - And then people will just gravitate towards those who can take hits such as Adaptation-modded Inaros, Nidus, Oberon, Mesa, so forth; turning the entire fight into a drawn-out fight of attrition.

Make the attacks incredibly damaging as well - And further exacerbate the one-shot problem that is previously only seen in deep endless runs? Make glass cannons completely unwelcomed in there? Further pushing just one tactic to be the only tactic viable?

Make the attacks dodge-able in a few places - In other word, a damage heavy-variation of Octavia's Anthem final mission. Would that really be welcomed by the hardcore community? And another nitpick, since it practically makes Warframe choices irrelevant (again), it's back to "taking Warframe out of Warframe" complaint.

This is just considering boss fights. On a mob/crowd based mission, CC become another point of problem. How do you make the enemies able to do anything in a map-wide lockdown? Nova's Molecular Prime (slows down enemies to a crawl), spammed-Vauban's Bastille, Limbo's Cataclysm (added bonus of making teammates invincible), Rhino's Stomp, Octavia's Mallet or Resonator, and maybe more that I forgot, makes the entire fight into a shooting gallery, enemy stats be damned. Nullify those, and we're back to the tank or even invisibility META (with the added problem of perpetuating the "CC is useless" meme).

 

That's because of power-creep and/or broken scaling - And how much do you propose to nerf the numbers, then? I didn't just talked about weapons damage. Quite a number of them are Warframe abilities, which stacks with each other. How low is it needed for each of these buffs so that they don't trivialize everything but still an appealing choice on an isolated case?

Warframe is a team-based game. Abilities shouldn't be calculated in isolation - Not only this would piss off a lot of solo players, it missed the point. If the numbers became too low, people wouldn't even bother using it and relegate abilities to just something cool to do once a while. Most of the design eventually fall back to the gunplay, which again goes back to "Warframe out of Warframe" complaint.

Also, When the enemies or the boss are able to fight back, some support or damage mitigation skill will be needed. The max damage comp will most likely be very squishy, and most likely go down a lot when the enemies are able to fight back. But if you calculate based on the "balanced" set up, some min-maxer will inevitably find a way to vaporize the opposition before they can even do anything, sending things back to trivialized. Case in point, the Eidolon Hunts.

We can just not play the META - And the general response would be "I don't want to gimp myself", "Why should I let go of my hard-earned power?" "I want something to actually use my OP gear."

 

Then Warframe need to be remade from the ground up - And this is the extreme that I find some, if not a lot of, hardcore players are against to. This is practically go to the territory of "change the game to what I like", which just send it deep to personal interest sacrificing everyone else. When people are asking for Warframe to change completely into a different game, the question will arise why they don't just look for a different game altogether.

 

There, that's mostly my gripe to the entire debate.

[Ziser]

On 2019-05-11 at 7:25 PM, Gamma745 said:

You mean, last mission of Octavia Anthem?

I somewhat forgot about that quest part, will have to replay it, something like that but harder and add more intersting enemies to it.

[Psykhe27]

They need to scale bosses harder for 4 player than 1 player. Wolf Hunt, for example, has the same HP solo as party. It takes the same amount of time. I mean.... reallly? It is sad.

[Psykhe27]

On 2019-05-11 at 12:28 AM, Elyann said:

Thank you for saying this, I'm seriously getting annoyed by this noisy tryhard minority trying to force its way of gaming on everyone else. 

I'm sorry that people think a game should be harder than press W and 1 through 4 to clear rooms. Some people have a brain and crave a challenge.

[Aldain]

5 minutes ago, Psykhe27 said:

Some people have a brain and crave a challenge.

Totally making a good argument by insulting people's brain capacity there, I'm sure people will see the error of their ways and throw themselves at your mercy. /s

[Ziser]

On 2019-05-11 at 8:49 AM, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

How, in this same post, do you both claim "THIS WILL BE THE END OF THE GAME'S SUCCESS!"  but at the same time you claim "doing this is good for business, though..."

Stop with the doomsday prophecies.  "Casuals" are not bad for the game...they often help keep the game funded.  DE is a business first and has been doing fine, and even improving, for 6 years now.  Warframe is not going to suddenly die just because you can kill a boss with your op guns.  Chill.

Thats part of the thinking EAs top managment likes, its what made EA to what we see them as today. Guess we all have our preferences :^)

If you dont get what i mean, research up on monetizations of video games with microtransactions and reward shortcuts directed for more casual costumers/players, literally EA in a nutshell. Business before absolutely anything.

 

[Psykhe27]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Totally making a good argument by insulting people's brain capacity there, I'm sure people will see the error of their ways and throw themselves at your mercy. /s

I expected as much.

[Aldain]

Just now, Psykhe27 said:

I expected as much.

Funny, I could say the same thing.

[Psykhe27]

Just now, Aldain said:

Funny, I could say the same thing.

Please. You are too hard for me.

[Aldain]

Just now, Psykhe27 said:

Please. You are too hard for me.

Its all the Iron in my diet that does that.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Am 9.5.2019 um 06:57 schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

It's like playing a Batman game..you'd expect thugs to be little to no match, provided you've put the time into improving/mastering your combat skills and such.

I take it you actually played the Batman games of recent, which ironically imo are good examples for actually skill based (as in: reaction and execution based) action games, while in Warframe your loadout pretty much plays the game for you. In Batman you can't clear room after room by the press of a single button and neither do you instantly die by being randomly one shot... And still, like you say, it fits the power fantasy idea well enough.

Just sayn.

Warframe's powercreep has just gone way too far. The discrepancies between loadout options as well as player's power against enemies' (despite the broken scaling) are simply too extreme to ever find a common basline for actual difficulty. It's a complete mess and i don't see any way of going back without alienating vast portions of the playerbase.

[Lutesque]

6 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

First, what do people generally asked for when they want a challenge? The first answer would be something that can stand up to their over-powered gear. But what exactly can stand up to any combination of: triple-stack Banshee's Sonar, max Chroma Vex Armor (this one can stack among multiple Chroma too), "God"-roll Rivened Lanka/Rubico, Harrow's Covenant Retaliation, any max strength elemental infusion (Smite Infusion, Fireball Frenzy, Shock Trooper, Venom Dose, Freeze Force), Nova's Molecular Prime, Rhino's Roar, Ivara's Artemis Bow, and so forth? The result would be a damage-sponge that makes the old Wolf of Saturn Six looks fragile in comparison. That would lead to the META not just be a better option, but an outright requirement to even do anything in there. Make it slightly lenient and the boss or content would be quickly trivialized, and we're back to usual.

Thats because its horribly balanced.... if all frames and weapons were equally effective  then you can easily make challenges around player's gear without having an obvious Meta.

2 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

In Batman you can't clear room after room by the press of a single button and neither do you instantly die by being randomly one shot...

Actually you can... you have two play on the hardest difficulty and not upgrade your amor and be on the line of site of multiple enemies and viola.... dead in one shot...

Still thats a rare occurence.... in Warframe getting one shotted happen pretty much every time I don't play inaros.

6 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

The second problem to challenge is the other side. How do you create a threat to our Warframe? How do you reasonably create a legitimate threat to outright INVINCIBILITY? Limbo's Cataclysm/Banish, Valkyr's Hysteria, Harrow's Covenant, Revenant's Mesmer Skin, and to a lesser extent, Zephyr's Turbulence and Nyx's Assimilate Absorb?

You don't. DE realised this hence why therez so many baby sitting objectives.... which I think was the right idea but not well thought out.... we need more objective based missions....

 

I agree with everything else.

[Chipputer]

9 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

First, what do people generally asked for when they want a challenge?

Mechanical challenges with numbers to simply beef up the enemies so they don't die immediately (EDIT: Making the AI not constantly brain dead or one-tracked, for example).
I don't care if people will cheese it. That's their prerogative and I'm not going to take it from them. You shouldn't care either. But thank you for pointing out that many frames can synergize and stack buffs that will cause them to delete enemies. It's almost like that's exactly what was intended.

9 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Listing multiple items and then arguing against them

Thanks for setting up your own argument to knock down. Lots of discussion going on there, granted, but it's all with yourself. I'm not going to address your arguments because you seem to have done that already, Oh All Knowing One.

The game doesn't need to lose its identity to add challenge or difficulty. The game needs to work on its mechanics and the rest will fall in line.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Chipputer

[Gamma745]

6 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Thanks for setting up your own argument to knock down. Lots of discussion going on, there, granted, but it's all with yourself. I'm not going to address your arguments because you seem to have done that already, Oh All Knowing One.

It's not with myself, since that's the most frequent arguments most of the Hardcore players seems to parrot over and over. I'm just restating them.

[Zimzala]

5 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

I'm sorry that people think a game should be harder than press W and 1 through 4 to clear rooms. Some people have a brain and crave a challenge.

You want challenge?

Make a better game or go play the stock market, that will challenge your L33T brain.

You claim to have a great brain but then look to others to challenge it...I think you might want to do some self-awareness training.

Trully intelligent people don't look to others for challenges, IME.

[SneakyErvin]

While OP may have some points, he is still the poster-child for why you shouldnt rush and buy yourself progress. You rob yourself of everything fun long before you even need to be at that point.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

23 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

You want to discuss this? I'll start by explaining why I am highly skeptical on the so-called "challenging content".

 

First, what do people generally asked for when they want a challenge? The first answer would be something that can stand up to their over-powered gear. But what exactly can stand up to any combination of: triple-stack Banshee's Sonar, max Chroma Vex Armor (this one can stack among multiple Chroma too), "God"-roll Rivened Lanka/Rubico, Harrow's Covenant Retaliation, any max strength elemental infusion (Smite Infusion, Fireball Frenzy, Shock Trooper, Venom Dose, Freeze Force), Nova's Molecular Prime, Rhino's Roar, Ivara's Artemis Bow, and so forth? The result would be a damage-sponge that makes the old Wolf of Saturn Six looks fragile in comparison. That would lead to the META not just be a better option, but an outright requirement to even do anything in there. Make it slightly lenient and the boss or content would be quickly trivialized, and we're back to usual.

Invincibility phases - Yes, because people loved those invulnerability phases, alright /s. It also doesn't help when people just make quick work of the target as soon as the invincibility wears off, negating any movement the target makes.

Then just makes some abilities nullified - Notice how a lot of the abilities I mentioned are self or team buffs. How do you nullify buffs? Stalker Dispel or a blanket Nullifier field all over the map? It would incite cry of foul for "taking the Warframe out of Warframe", "Why bother having any Warframe at all?"

 

The second problem to challenge is the other side. How do you create a threat to our Warframe? How do you reasonably create a legitimate threat to outright INVINCIBILITY? Limbo's Cataclysm/Banish, Valkyr's Hysteria, Harrow's Covenant, Revenant's Mesmer Skin, and to a lesser extent, Zephyr's Turbulence and Nyx's Assimilate Absorb?

Make the attacks ignore Invincibility - And then people will just gravitate towards those who can take hits such as Adaptation-modded Inaros, Nidus, Oberon, Mesa, so forth; turning the entire fight into a drawn-out fight of attrition.

Make the attacks incredibly damaging as well - And further exacerbate the one-shot problem that is previously only seen in deep endless runs? Make glass cannons completely unwelcomed in there? Further pushing just one tactic to be the only tactic viable?

Make the attacks dodge-able in a few places - In other word, a damage heavy-variation of Octavia's Anthem final mission. Would that really be welcomed by the hardcore community? And another nitpick, since it practically makes Warframe choices irrelevant (again), it's back to "taking Warframe out of Warframe" complaint.

This is just considering boss fights. On a mob/crowd based mission, CC become another point of problem. How do you make the enemies able to do anything in a map-wide lockdown? Nova's Molecular Prime (slows down enemies to a crawl), spammed-Vauban's Bastille, Limbo's Cataclysm (added bonus of making teammates invincible), Rhino's Stomp, Octavia's Mallet or Resonator, and maybe more that I forgot, makes the entire fight into a shooting gallery, enemy stats be damned. Nullify those, and we're back to the tank or even invisibility META (with the added problem of perpetuating the "CC is useless" meme).

 

That's because of power-creep and/or broken scaling - And how much do you propose to nerf the numbers, then? I didn't just talked about weapons damage. Quite a number of them are Warframe abilities, which stacks with each other. How low is it needed for each of these buffs so that they don't trivialize everything but still an appealing choice on an isolated case?

Warframe is a team-based game. Abilities shouldn't be calculated in isolation - Not only this would piss off a lot of solo players, it missed the point. If the numbers became too low, people wouldn't even bother using it and relegate abilities to just something cool to do once a while. Most of the design eventually fall back to the gunplay, which again goes back to "Warframe out of Warframe" complaint.

Also, When the enemies or the boss are able to fight back, some support or damage mitigation skill will be needed. The max damage comp will most likely be very squishy, and most likely go down a lot when the enemies are able to fight back. But if you calculate based on the "balanced" set up, some min-maxer will inevitably find a way to vaporize the opposition before they can even do anything, sending things back to trivialized. Case in point, the Eidolon Hunts.

We can just not play the META - And the general response would be "I don't want to gimp myself", "Why should I let go of my hard-earned power?" "I want something to actually use my OP gear."

 

Then Warframe need to be remade from the ground up - And this is the extreme that I find some, if not a lot of, hardcore players are against to. This is practically go to the territory of "change the game to what I like", which just send it deep to personal interest sacrificing everyone else. When people are asking for Warframe to change completely into a different game, the question will arise why they don't just look for a different game altogether.

 

There, that's mostly my gripe to the entire debate.

Honestly, well-said.  I've never been able to put this all so perfectly...  Even though people STILL seem to want to argue it, these are all very valid, very REAL issues with "simple fixes".

At this point, tbh, DE is better off (and has been doing this) just leaning INTO the OPness of running around, deleting hordes of enemies.  As if that is the "reward" for putting the time and effort into improving in the game.  New frames and weapons are just fun new ways to DO that.

I, personally, find great enjoyment in doing just that.  Reminds me of Dynasty Warriors meets DMC, but with lots more powers and options...

Regardless, this is why I reply to people with "then play a different game." or "don't play Warframe".  Because it becomes clear in posts like the OPs that they just want a different game entirely...and I gotta ask, what's more likely?  Finding a game to suit you  or changing an entire EXISTING  game into something else entirely?

20 hours ago, Ziser said:

Thats part of the thinking EAs top managment likes, its what made EA to what we see them as today. Guess we all have our preferences :^)

If you dont get what i mean, research up on monetizations of video games with microtransactions and reward shortcuts directed for more casual costumers/players, literally EA in a nutshell. Business before absolutely anything.

 

Good for EA.

DE is not EA, however.

Also, again, if a practice is "bad" in the majority's eyes, then the majority will stop funding said practice, and the game will fail...and no more will be made.
Since this game is still going, clearly the majority enjoy it, and thus whatever DE is doing is working just fine to keep the game alive....otherwise, they'd change or close down. 

I don't know why that isn't apparent.

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-05-11 at 7:53 PM, Chipputer said:

What noisy tryhards are you seeing, here? For every one person wanting higher level content there's fifteen people saying, "don't like it don't play, tryhard."
There's no discussion to be had because the flood of people telling us our opinions don't matter drown out the few who disagree but want to entertain actual discussion.

Using terms like, "force," and phrases like, "get out," when discussing these ideas are both intellectually dishonest and childish, respectively. None of this is what's happening.

22 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

I take it you actually played the Batman games of recent, which ironically imo are good examples for actually skill based (as in: reaction and execution based) action games, while in Warframe your loadout pretty much plays the game for you. In Batman you can't clear room after room by the press of a single button and neither do you instantly die by being randomly one shot... And still, like you say, it fits the power fantasy idea well enough.

Just sayn.

Warframe's powercreep has just gone way too far. The discrepancies between loadout options as well as player's power against enemies' (despite the broken scaling) are simply too extreme to ever find a common basline for actual difficulty. It's a complete mess and i don't see any way of going back without alienating vast portions of the playerbase.

QFT.

 

It should be obvious to anyone at this point that the insane power creep we got over the years are actually hurting the game. Threads like this one are just a symptom.

[TioMegaManX]

Equip all four dragon keys and you are set.

[Yousho]

Yes, the game does seem to be very easy at present. 

They need to stop obsessing over the idea that every new piece of content should be accessable for newer players. Surely newer players have enough to do by now? 

But, yes, power creep and the absolutely bonkers insane scaling is a huge, huge problem.

[FlusteredFerret]

But you know the first thing that will happen, if / when DE do manage to actually create enemies that are genuinely challenging to Cheeseframers?

 

 

Forum will be flooded with complaints that their favourite frames and gear are now trash and need buffing... 

 

I mean, we see it now, even though much gear can be made ridiculously OP and content is already trivialised. But because there is stuff that doesn't let you sleepwalk through the game, it apparently needs buffing.

 

So imagine what would happen if there was something in the game that was really, actually, genuinely difficult? 

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[Kontrollo]

41 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

...

So imagine what would happen if there was something in the game that was really, actually, genuinely difficult? 

There already is, and it is widely disliked. 😉

But IMHO, the devs have to try despite that. That's just a consequence of wanting to cater to a broad audience and have something to come back. The trick is to make it in a way that doesn't break all the time when they add new things.

Also, no matter how easy or hard it gets, there will always be voices that say it's not good enough for them.

[Zimzala]

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Also, no matter how easy or hard it gets, there will always be voices that say it's not good enough for them.

Yep.

Arm-chair, rules-lawyering, life-disruntled wanna-be-developers are never satisfied.

It a lot like watching someone take the Psych 101 class and they think they know how to analyze everyone...

A gamer 'masters' a game (in thier opinion) and suddenly, they know how to fix all games...

Similar to CEO-itiss where a CEO of a company thinks they are CEO of the world...

The battle cry of the uniformed rings out, "But, They Could Just..."

...'round and 'round it goes.