It breaks my heart that Hydroid is so bad

[Balistica]

Hydroid has been my main for years now and I'm not exaggerating when I say it broke my heart to see how little love was put into the rework.  It felt like there was no insight into what a Hydroid player would want, and it scares me to think that it may be years and years before another rework comes along.  I put together a list of the core things that are wrong with him, or went wrong with the update.

*Passive is completely boring and useless
*The charge times on his 1 and 4 aren't fun to use at all, it slows him down and kills him.  The way his tentacles work fundamentally means he has to keep placing them down.  I like to compare this to if Saryn were to be given 2 seconds charge times on her 1 and 4. (Saryn players don't like that idea)
*His wave contradicts his low duration replacing tentacles build.  I also think all Hydroid mains wanted the size of the wave to scale with range.
*His puddle has an absurdly low base range and only pulls one enemy at a time.  Building enough range to get to 30m requires Hydroid to forgo too many stats, and his kit uses all the stats.
*Puddle size doesn't scale with range.
*When casting 4 from Puddle, the tentacles shouldn't center in the puddle, It's not very useful.
*There's no damage in his kit anywhere.
*There's no defense anywhere in his kit.
*His CC is subpar and requires much much more activity/energy than other frames.
*He has no Energy or Health Sustain.
*His 4 is too inconsistent, changing it to a channel that summons tentacles seems like a much more engaging and consistent alternative.
*He has no tools to deal with enemies stuck in tentacles.  (Though I believe the tentacles are an ancient system anyway)
*No good defensive augments, and the farm augment that keeps him played is worse than Nekros', but Nekros also outshines him in every other category.

Overall
*Hydroid isn't more fun to play
*Isn't played more (I truly don't count just farming and neither should you)
*Isn't healthier

I really feel passionately about this and would like to talk to someone about this, but it's so underplayed it's hard to talk about the problems I have without getting shrugged off.  I think Hydroid thematically is something people really like, and if his gameplay held up, everyone would want to play the pirate character.
If you played Vauban, Nezha, Wukong, Nyx, Mag, then you know my plight brothers, lend me your aid.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Balistica

[EinheriarJudith]

40 minutes ago, Balistica said:

~snip~

alot of the problems can be solved by:

remove the charge mechanic on both is 1 and 4. add toxin to tempest barrage

allow puddle size of undertow to scale off range mods, and pull multiple targets in based off range mods

for tentacle swarm, replace the magnetic damage with toxin (seriously why does this even do magnetic), replace the ragdoll with knockdown or stun while enemies remain in its field of effect (this removes the annoyance of flailing enemies)

my reasoning for adding toxin is because of other games that use water as an element also align it with poison so....

Edited May 9, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[Balistica]

That would fix some stuff but it wouldn't be fun to play, and it wouldn't make him a whole lot better.  He still would face the pre-update problem of no-one would want to play him.  You can kinda see that they prioritized the puddle in the update because it's his most fun ability and it's core to his identity.  I think his 1 and 2 should place water on the ground that drowns enemies and can be shot into.  I think his 3 should damage all enemies currently drowning and give him a stat buff based on that.  I think his 4 is fundamentally flawed and should instead start a channeled storm that does damage, spawns pools around him, and increases drop rates of enemies in the storm.  I think this would be a more fun and identity friendly version off Hydroid.  I also think it's important to integrate the augment into his kit because it's unhealthy to take up that mod slot on a frame that desperately needs all stats.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Balistica

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

How about changing Tidal Surge to a literal tidal wave knocking back enemies?

[ExcaliburUmbra]

I kinda wish he had an exalted Kraken as his fourth ability. All sorts of ways you could probably make that fun to use, especially compared with what we got currently.

Also yea that passive always bothered me. A lot of frames could do with a quality-of-life/passive pass as many have aspects that are outdated, clunky, or just not fun to use/play with.

[Balistica]

What would an exalted kraken do

[Test-995]

Maybe some tentacle whip(could be automatic), corrosive water launcher, and would have higher EHP than normal state.

Entire abilities could be changed/buffed while being a kraken.

 

[Balistica]

This sounds like it would be slow gameplay wise, I would really hate if they added another ability to his kit that anchored him down.  I also don't think it's very cool to become a kraken, I wanna use weapons.(Personally)

[Yousho]

Sadly, DE seeming to not understand the game very well seems to be a common theme these days...

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

4 minutes ago, Yousho said:

Sadly, DE seeming to not understand the game very well seems to be a common theme these days...

DE understands the game better than we do.

[Yousho]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

DE understands the game better than we do.

Highly doubtful. Nobody who's ever been in the same room as somebody playing Warframe would look at, say, the nightwave update and go "this is a good idea." 

[Balistica]

Well the game as a whole, but I think people who have thousands of hour of playtime in their favorite characters probably have more insight than the people on the dev team that don't.  As far as what would be fun or healthy for that character specifically.  If none of the devs at DE play Hydroid outside of farming toroids, and none of the playtesters play Hydroid, and none of the youtubers play Hydroid, you end up with the Hydroid update we got.  So it's ok to know more about the game in niche areas than the devs.  Most of the devs that play League of Legends are Plat and below.

[Test-995]

56 minutes ago, Balistica said:

This sounds like it would be slow gameplay wise, I would really hate if they added another ability to his kit that anchored him down.  I also don't think it's very cool to become a kraken, I wanna use weapons.(Personally)

Well, i thought something closer to razorwing (transform), but it'll change him too drastically and wouldn't really match with the thing already exists anyway.

[000l000]

Il y a 5 heures, Balistica a dit :

Hydroid has been my main for years now and I'm not exaggerating when I say it broke my heart to see how little love was put into the rework.  It felt like there was no insight into what a Hydroid player would want, and it scares me to think that it may be years and years before another rework comes along.  I put together a list of the core things that are wrong with him, or went wrong with the update.

*Passive is completely boring and useless
*The charge times on his 1 and 4 aren't fun to use at all, it slows him down and kills him.  The way his tentacles work fundamentally means he has to keep placing them down.  I like to compare this to if Saryn were to be given 2 seconds charge times on her 1 and 4. (Saryn players don't like that idea)
*His wave contradicts his low duration replacing tentacles build.  I also think all Hydroid mains wanted the size of the wave to scale with range.
*His puddle has an absurdly low base range and only pulls one enemy at a time.  Building enough range to get to 30m requires Hydroid to forgo too many stats, and his kit uses all the stats.
*Puddle size doesn't scale with range.
*When casting 4 from Puddle, the tentacles shouldn't center in the puddle, It's not very useful.
*There's no damage in his kit anywhere.
*There's no defense anywhere in his kit.
*His CC is subpar and requires much much more activity/energy than other frames.
*He has no Energy or Health Sustain.
*His 4 is too inconsistent, changing it to a channel that summons tentacles seems like a much more engaging and consistent alternative.
*He has no tools to deal with enemies stuck in tentacles.  (Though I believe the tentacles are an ancient system anyway)
*No good defensive augments, and the farm augment that keeps him played is worse than Nekros', but Nekros also outshines him in every other category.

Overall
*Hydroid isn't more fun to play
*Isn't played more (I truly don't count just farming and neither should you)
*Isn't healthier

I really feel passionately about this and would like to talk to someone about this, but it's so underplayed it's hard to talk about the problems I have without getting shrugged off.  I think Hydroid thematically is something people really like, and if his gameplay held up, everyone would want to play the pirate character.
If you played Vauban, Nezha, Wukong, Nyx, Mag, then you know my plight brothers, lend me your aid.

Well i think that Hydroid is suffering the same issue than most other underrated frames - which is that most players are only using the fourth power, thinking that it's some sort of ultimate and thus spamming it all day long when every single frame has a whole kit to start with. No one is using undertow when his whole kit works around that specific power.

But you're right on some points though and Hydroid could definitely be improved with some slight adjustments.

Damages

His first is quite effective at cleaning at low levels, and its augment makes it really effective to strip armor in a large area. It works both as an effective CC power (enemies are locked down) and as an additional layer of damage. You can choke points thanks to this power and combined with undertow and tentacles swarm you get a really decent area damage/control fest.

No one cares much about undertow but it basically double your tentacle swarm damages, it also deals scaling important damages while keeping enemies from doing anything but dying. Not many people also are aware that anyone can shoot into the puddle to damage every single enemy locked into it. With enough range it's a damn effective trap. Hydroid first power can also be cast into it.

Tentacle swarm deals true damage, which means that it passes through any kind of protection, with enough power strength and double damage thanks to undertow, you can deal quite decent damage with this power. It works until really high levels though, then it shares the same issue than Khora's cage - Really tough enemies, especially Eximus, can be locked into your tentacles without dying much cause they have millions of HP. At this point Hydroid could get some synergy to help with killing such enemies, the same way Khora can use her 1 to finish enemies off when her 4 alone is not enough.

Defense

Undertow makes you basically immune to damage, even helping with regenerating thanks to its augment.

Every single power Hydroid has is a CC, so enemies are thrown away, knocked down, locked down all around - No offense but area CCs are the best way to survive, ever.

People are also craving for more loots so they're always using the upteenth "moar looooot" augment when they could use Hydroid second augment instead for example. It makes him and other team members immune to status, not that useless especially when high level enemies are using slash weapons, or even radiation.

Management

Using Hydroid whole kit has a cost, energy management has to be looked at then. But once again, if you're using his double loot augment, you'll get plenty of energy orbs so it'll definitely help at some point. Perhaps using some efficiency (killing with headshot while using a Kitgun and the right pax arcane for example, or mods) would help. Hydroid is definitely hard to gear and build, he needs duration and/or efficiency (less cast, less cost) but also needs range (all of his powers benefit from that) and power strength for obvious reasons.

Tbh i've never had any energy issues with my Hydroid but i'm not playing him at full power. My only concern so far is with high level enemies stuck for decades in his tentacle swarms or even in his undertow.

Some things could definitely be improved, perhaps making undertow way easier to use, hence less cost, preventing every single aura or capture ability to work (for everyone, not only Hydroid as for now), and improving undertow grab ability, perhaps adding an area effect to it - thus making Hydroid under undertow effect better at grabbing more enemies at once.

More incentive to shoot through the puddle would be nice too, something like Mag's bubble could be nice, Hydroid could be charged and then dealing a stacking amount of damages to anything into it.

Edited May 9, 2019 by 000l000

[Balistica]

17 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Well i think that Hydroid is suffering the same issue than most other underrated frames - which is that most players are only using the fourth power, thinking that it's some sort of ultimate and thus spamming it all day long when every single frame has a whole kit to start with. No one is using undertow when his whole kit works around that specific power.

But you're right on some points though and Hydroid could definitely be improved with some slight adjustments.

Damages

His first is quite effective at cleaning at low levels, and its augment makes it really effective to strip armor in a large area. It works both as an effective CC power (enemies are locked down) and as an additional layer of damage. You can choke points thanks to this power and combined with undertow and tentacles swarm you get a really decent area damage/control fest.

No one cares much about undertow but it basically double your tentacle swarm damages, it also deals scaling important damages while keeping enemies from doing anything but dying. Not many people also are aware that anyone can shoot into the puddle to damage every single enemy locked into it. With enough range it's a damn effective trap.

Tentacle swarm deals true damage, which means that it passes through any kind of protection, with enough power strength and double damage thanks to undertow, you can deal quite decent damage with this power. It works until really high levels though, then it shares the same issue than Khora's cage - Really tough enemies, especially Eximus, can be locked into your tentacles without dying much cause they have millions of HP. At this point Hydroid could get some synergy to help with killing such enemies, the same way Khora can use her 1 to finish enemies off when her 4 alone is not enough.

Defense

Undertow makes you basically immune to damage, even helping with regenerating thanks to its augment.

Every single power Hydroid has is a CC, so enemies are thrown away, knocked down, locked down all around - No offense but area CCs are the best way to survive, ever.

People are also craving for more loots so they're always using the upteenth "moar looooot" augment when they could use Hydroid second augment instead for example. It makes him and other team members immune to status, not that useless especially when high level enemies are using slash weapons, or even radiation.

Management

Using Hydroid whole kit has a cost, energy management has to be looked at then. But once again, if you're using his double loot augment, you'll get plenty of energy orbs so it'll definitely help at some point. Perhaps using some efficiency (killing with headshot while using a Kitgun and the right pax arcane for example, or mods) would help. Hydroid is definitely hard to gear and build, he needs duration and/or efficiency (less cast, less cost) but also needs range (all of his powers benefit from that) and power strength for obvious reasons.

Tbh i've never had any energy issues with my Hydroid but i'm not playing him at full power. My only concern so far is with high level enemies stuck for decades in his tentacle swarms or even in his undertow.

Some things could definitely be improved, perhaps making undertow way easier to use, hence less cost, preventing every single aura or capture ability to work (for everyone, not only Hydroid as for now), and improving undertow grab ability, perhaps adding an area effect to it - thus making Hydroid under undertow effect better at grabbing more enemies at once.

More incentive to shoot through the puddle would be nice too, something like Mag's bubble could be nice, Hydroid could be charged and then dealing a stacking amount of damages to anything into it.

No one is using undertow because it has an unbearably low range and very low damage, his kill time when doing as much as you can to do damage is still incredibly low.  It also costs far too much energy to pull and maintain any meaningful amount of enemies. 

No frame should be balanced around how they do at low level, unless it's hindering the game for players.  And I'm sure his time to kill is still mediocre thanks to his charge times.

Barrage would be a good CC tool, but it has a very low base duration and can only be placed 1 area at a time.  And saying Corroding Barrage is really effective is pretty generous, considering it's inconsistent in hitting the same target multiple times.  It's also not a good damage tool, like at all.  I try to not balance around lvl 15 missions.

Undertow is actually a very bad trap, considering you need 3 range mods to make it's range viable, at which you don't do damage, or you do damage but you forfeit your efficiency, or duration, or health, or augment.  The best way to survive isn't CC, it's having a massive damage resist/shield, or map clearing damage.  Mass CC can help, but his is really really bad.  You have to compare him to the entire roster.  Anyway CC really doesn't matter now.

His other augments are definitely useless, and I wouldn't really balance him based on how good or bad his augments are anyway.  If an augment is only alright that = never gonna be used which is a really bad thing.  I don't really care if the augment gets changed but it's for sure not a point for Hydroid. 

Underrated doesn't mean niche and good, sometimes underrated just means rated low.  Banshee isn't played but banshee is good.  Hydroid gets killed in every single department, and it's not even a contest.  He doesn't need more energy to fight high level enemies, he just needs damage.  If you throw more 0s at them, it still totals out to 0.

I'm salty now

[Ikusi_Prime]

It'd be awesome if they moved his passive to his 1 as an on-demand ability, moved the fully-charged version of Tempest Barrage to his 3, and made the Puddle his passive, so he could turn into a puddle simply by crouching. Instead of an energy cost, a set duration would be awesome (like wall hang/aim glide, maybe even improving the duration with mods that affect those things). Or don't. Limbo gets to be invulnerable energy-free forever. Why not our boi Hydroid?

Edited May 9, 2019 by Ikusi_Prime

[rudman88]

well what most of you complaint i slike the hydroid before the nerf LOL

 

 

 

[000l000]

Il y a 3 heures, Balistica a dit :

No one is using undertow because it has an unbearably low range and very low damage, his kill time when doing as much as you can to do damage is still incredibly low.  It also costs far too much energy to pull and maintain any meaningful amount of enemies. 

No frame should be balanced around how they do at low level, unless it's hindering the game for players.  And I'm sure his time to kill is still mediocre thanks to his charge times.

Barrage would be a good CC tool, but it has a very low base duration and can only be placed 1 area at a time.  And saying Corroding Barrage is really effective is pretty generous, considering it's inconsistent in hitting the same target multiple times.  It's also not a good damage tool, like at all.  I try to not balance around lvl 15 missions.

Undertow is actually a very bad trap, considering you need 3 range mods to make it's range viable, at which you don't do damage, or you do damage but you forfeit your efficiency, or duration, or health, or augment.  The best way to survive isn't CC, it's having a massive damage resist/shield, or map clearing damage.  Mass CC can help, but his is really really bad.  You have to compare him to the entire roster.  Anyway CC really doesn't matter now.

His other augments are definitely useless, and I wouldn't really balance him based on how good or bad his augments are anyway.  If an augment is only alright that = never gonna be used which is a really bad thing.  I don't really care if the augment gets changed but it's for sure not a point for Hydroid. 

Underrated doesn't mean niche and good, sometimes underrated just means rated low.  Banshee isn't played but banshee is good.  Hydroid gets killed in every single department, and it's not even a contest.  He doesn't need more energy to fight high level enemies, he just needs damage.  If you throw more 0s at them, it still totals out to 0.

I'm salty now

I already answered most of your concerns, i won't spend much time doing that again then.

Hydroid having survivability issue is your own concern, his health and shield pools are making adaptation really scaling well and if you think that CCs are saving no one in this game, i can't help you there. Keep dying, as far as i'm concerned i don't.

Edited May 9, 2019 by 000l000

[Awazx]

Il y a 8 heures, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 a dit :

DE understands the game better than we do.

... DE understands his game so well, that he implements in a Warframe absurd load mechanics, in a game of ultra-fast rhythm.

[AzulMage]

Hydroid DOES have CC ...it's just garbage CC. I main him and have him set up for damage. I use no shield/armor/health mods because the one thing I'll admit he has going for him is that his 3 with augment definitely keeps him alive since it's invulnerability plus healing so death is not a big issue as long as you pay very close attention (though the cast time for 3, like with his entire kit is long enough that you can get screwed). 

His 1, while decent CC as said, has absolutely garbage damage at higher levels to the point that it's augment is the only reason to use it. It's only decent CC because it last such a short amount of time compared to it's cost and CC abilities from other frames can CC better easily with less investment. Also cast time means by the time it's activated you could already have taken lethal damage. That or someone else already killed the enemies by the time it's fully casted.

His 2... I just see no reason to ever use other than meme or running faster down a hallway with absolutely no turns and no doors. It's damage is terrible, it's costs is WAY too high for what it does, enemies immediately get up and shrug off whatever you did when you ran into them, and even for movement it fails because you can't steer and it's either too fast or too slow depending on mod set up. It's augment... Who cares?

His 3, while being good for keeping him alive has drawbacks as CC or damage. As CC, like OP said, heavy investment needs to be made in range in order to make it large enough to function as a good CC trap. Doing that hurts ability and channeling costs so you wouldn't be able to trap anything for long either. Plus, this ability really needs a lure/aggro component so enemies actually walk into it outside of you dragging them in for even more energy cost. I'll admit, the infinite scaling damage is clearly a plus. But in a game where damage frames can kill large rooms in no time and certain weapons can do the same, the time it takes for damage to scale on his 3 is MUCH too slow for it to be a good source of damage. Not to mention that every enemy has their own damage scale to start so it's not like trapping the next enemy means it will die faster. I do like 1 augment plus this though for tough enemies even if it's still a slower kill compared to other methods.

His 4. SUPER long cast time which is definitely one reason his CC can't keep him alive. By the time he casts it, he could already have taken enough shots to have died. As CC it has other issues. If you mod for power (which his 3 calls for unless you really want to go have an entire dinner before it scales enough to kills things) the initial cast of this launches all enemies into the stratosphere rather than simply grab them and CC. It's bad enough that I've been told not to cast it because it launches Ancients too far to kill them to negate their effects. Once an enemy IS grabbed the flailing of them makes it tough to kill yourself or for your teammates to shoot, which causes some amount of anti-synergy in a team. A good solution would be for no more launching and for them stop flailing when they grab someone and simple hold them still while squeezing them for damage over time so they can be more easily shot. It's true damage, as mentioned in other posts, is too weak to matter at higher levels even with double damage from his 3. Going into that, his 4 emerging from puddle makes it worse CC since it shrinks the range and then has anti-synergy with his 3 since it keeps enemies from going into puddle due to launching or grabbing. Maybe it should instead drag all enemies it hits into puddle? Also, let's be real, outside of Hydroid mains like myself or OP the augment for this is the only reason anyone even breaths his name...and even then they want someone else to play him

I know I literally complained about his entire kit but he is still my main for 3 reasons: 1)I love water elementals in games 2) the fact that at best he is just mediocre makes him a fun challenge (at times) to play as(and his kit is still somewhat fun even if it's not good)and 3) I've invested so much time into him that I don't want to give him up now. It's sad only because a few tweaks to his current kit would help tremendously. I honestly don't think he needs a rework that replaces his abilities other than possibly replacing his 2 with something else entirely, just one that makes them more viable. If Hydroid really was anything other than mediocre at best, more people would play him

Edited May 9, 2019 by (NSW)SantCruz

[Teridax68]

My thoughts on Hydroid's abilities:

• Agreed, the passive is boring and useless. What does it achieve? What use is this delayed little instance of unreliable damage and crowd control when the player has likely already killed the target they slam attacked, or at the very least shoved well out of the way of the tentacle? In the worst cases, the tentacle leaves a lingering trace that tips enemies off to Hydroid's presence, and because there are no real beneficial cases, this makes for a passive that is overall slightly detrimental to him.
• Tempest Barrage is cool in theory, but thoroughly poor in practice: the ability's damage is weak, the knockdown disrupts the player's aim against enemies, the overall landing of the projectiles is unreliable, and the charge mechanic makes for a needlessly slow ability that will often kill Hydroid if he overcommits to casting it. The only time the ability becomes remotely useful is with the augment, and even then, it only adds a Corrosive proc when all other armor-shredding augments shred an armor percentage scaling with Power Strength. There is, therefore, often no real reason to cast this ability, as it wastes the player's time more than anything.
• Tidal Surge is a bad ability through and through: why would anyone want to pay an Energy cost for a worse bullet jump that disperses enemies? Tidal waves are cool, but Hydroid's 2 is unwieldy and largely counterproductive.
• Undertow is a similarly terrible ability due to the gameplay it creates: who thought it was a good idea to design an ability that has the player turn into an immobile, inactive puddle of water? How does this constitute interesting gameplay in any shape or form? Turning into water can be cool, especially if it means dodging enemy fire, cleansing oneself of negative effects, or trapping enemies underwater, but Hydroid's 3 is just about the most boring possible implementation of this.
• The only redeeming feature to Tentacle Swarm is its augment: at is base, the ability deals weak damage, and provides crowd control that is unreliable at best, due to the spread of the tentacles, and unhelpful at worst, because swinging enemies around makes them harder to hit and kill. Without Pilfering Swarm, there would never be any reason to use this ability.

So in summary, we have a frame who's supposed to provide some damage and crowd control, but whose abilities are, at best, barely impactful, and at worst actively impede Hydroid and his allies through their disruptive CC, to the point where it is often better not to cast his abilities at all. Were it not for Pilfering Swarm and its use in farm runs, there is no doubt that Hydroid would be right at the bottom of the warframe barrel with Ember and Vauban (in fact, he'd likely be even worse than either, as the other two provide more reliable and useful crowd control). In many ways, he's like pre-rework Nekros, in that he's a frame who fails to embody his theme and gameplay fantasy, and whose sole saving grace is his ability to generate more loot: Nekros still has this problem, as he's still the game's loot frame more than the game's necromancer, but at least he's fun to play, so if the same could be done for Hydroid, that would already be tremendous progress. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Teridax68

[AzulMage]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

My thoughts on Hydroid's abilities:

• Agreed, the passive is boring and useless. What does it achieve? What use is this delayed little instance of unreliable damage and crowd control when the player has likely already killed the target they slam attacked, or at the very least shoved well out of the way of the tentacle? In the worst cases, the tentacle leaves a lingering trace that tips enemies off to Hydroid's presence, and because there are no real beneficial cases, this makes for a passive that is overall slightly detrimental to him.
• Tempest Barrage is cool in theory, but thoroughly poor in practice: the ability's damage is weak, the knockdown disrupts the player's aim against enemies, the overall landing of the projectiles is unreliable, and the charge mechanic makes for a needlessly slow ability that will often kill Hydroid if he overcommits to casting it. The only time the ability becomes remotely useful is with the augment, and even then, it only adds a Corrosive proc when all other armor-shredding augments shred an armor percentage scaling with Power Strength. There is, therefore, often no real reason to cast this ability, as it wastes the player's time more than anything.
• Tidal Surge is a bad ability through and through: why would anyone want to pay an Energy cost for a worse bullet jump that disperses enemies? Tidal waves are cool, but Hydroid's 2 is unwieldy and largely counterproductive.
• Undertow is a similarly terrible ability due to the gameplay it creates: who thought it was a good idea to design an ability that has the player turn into an immobile, inactive puddle of water? How does this constitute interesting gameplay in any shape or form? Turning into water can be cool, especially if it means dodging enemy fire, cleansing oneself of negative effects, or trapping enemies underwater, but Hydroid's 3 is just about the most boring possible implementation of this.
• The only redeeming feature to Tentacle Swarm is its augment: at is base, the ability deals weak damage, and provides crowd control that is unreliable at best, due to the spread of the tentacles, and unhelpful at worst, because swinging enemies around makes them harder to hit and kill. Without Pilfering Swarm, there would never be any reason to use this ability.

So in summary, we have a frame who's supposed to provide some damage and crowd control, but whose abilities are, at best, barely impactful, and at worst actively impede Hydroid and his allies through their disruptive CC, to the point where it is often better not to cast his abilities at all. Were it not for Pilfering Swarm and its use in farm runs, there is no doubt that Hydroid would be right at the bottom of the warframe barrel with Ember and Vauban (in fact, he'd likely be even worse than either, as the other two provide more reliable and useful crowd control). In many ways, he's like pre-rework Nekros, in that he's a frame who fails to embody his theme and gameplay fantasy, and whose sole saving grace is his ability to generate more loot: Nekros still has this problem, as he's still the game's loot frame more than the game's necromancer, but at least he's fun to play, so if the same could be done for Hydroid, that would already be tremendous progress. 

You hit the nail on the head with this post. Still my main due to stubbornness though, ha.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Hydroid is good at leveling weapons in Helene at saturn while also farming some orokin cells or farming Tellurium in uranus. He's not bad against NPCs up to level 50, mostly spamming 4, using 3 when he needs to avoid combat. barely use 1, never used 2.

I agree that he lacks damages or better CC for higher / harder content.

[Balistica]

1 minute ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Hydroid is good at leveling weapons in Helene at saturn while also farming some orokin cells or farming Tellurium in uranus. He's not bad against NPCs up to level 50, mostly spamming 4, using 3 when he needs to avoid combat. barely use 1, never used 2.

I agree that he lacks damages or better CC for higher / harder content.

He doesn't do good damage up to level 50, because dmg in the perfect storm drag into puddle pop tentacles in a strength build is still way too slow in time to kill.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

longer than Saryn is not "too slow" for me, but probably for many people.