It breaks my heart that Hydroid is so bad

[AzureTerra]

On 2019-05-09 at 3:37 PM, Yousho said:

Highly doubtful. Nobody who's ever been in the same room as somebody playing Warframe would look at, say, the nightwave update and go "this is a good idea." 

Players always think they know better and by and large they don't. They only know what they personally want better.

[Balistica]

1 hour ago, AzureTerra said:

Players always think they know better and by and large they don't. They only know what they personally want better.

You can establish basic foundations and then objectively rule an opinion as being better for the game.  What you personally want can also be what is objectively good for the game.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Balistica

[Rhalick0]

This is nothing new. More and more of their "reworks" show they never play their own game. They do some random S#&$r nobody asked for and then expect players to like that and change their playstyle accordingly.

[Guest]

1. Remove the charge up on Tempest Barrage, make it do its fully charged effect on press. Also, remove the delay for the shots to start hitting the ground and give the shots slight homing to ensure enemy hits. Corroding Barrage can also come with magnetic procs alongside the corrosive procs.

2. Just add the augment into the skill already and make a new augment ... or reduce the cost. 

3. Undertow is actually ok, despite what people say

4. The Tentacles ... are actually ok if their targeting is improved and they don't flail enemies around. Maybe make them wrap around enemies and constrict. Perhaps also add a damage amp effect for caught enemies.

[Balistica]

1 hour ago, hackedraptor said:

This is nothing new. More and more of their "reworks" show they never play their own game. They do some random S#&$r nobody asked for and then expect players to like that and change their playstyle accordingly.

They play their own game, but all the devs are Saryn mains

[ryvrdrgn14]

• Make Hydroid's passive 100% so that it will be a reliable tool when doing combos that end with a ground slam. Give Hydroid some armor when he is within a certain range of his tentacles. Now you have melee Hydroid.
• Make Hydroid's passve have a chance of summoning a tentacle when you either get a head shot on an enemy. So now you have the bonus of tentacles appearing when you shoot stuff. 
• Give Hydroid a mod where he immediately turns into a puddle while reloading then he returns afterwards. Make it add some other stuff like faster reloading or some other additional benefit.
• Make a giant anchor melee weapon. Give Hydroid a bonus with it.

There are a lot more fun things they can do to make him interesting to play.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

While hydroid does have issues I wouldn't consider him to be bad.  I find lots of fun with how he currently plays.

I love how much more his gameplay is focused around puddle.  And I also find it endlessly fun to spam his 1 and keep my 4 out for chaotic cc.

[EothasianBoar]

Agreed on remove the charge time on his 1 and 4 and make them fully charge, always. When DE came up with a new mechanic, they have a habit of trying to force that mechanic into things that doesn't need it. 2 and 3 is okay, imo.

I have an more conservative revision for Hydroid though, i.e. not "give more damage", not "give everyone exalt stuff." I'd rather he remain CC focus frame he just need to be better at it to be on par with others.

[000l000]

Il y a 22 heures, MonsterOfMyOwn a dit :

longer than Saryn is not "too slow" for me, but probably for many people.

Saryn TTK is far from being the best around, she's only good because of her huge range - wait for a FoV nerf and no one will still play her. People are complaining about Hydroid damages but they don't even know how he really works, they're just spamming his 4th all day long and then they come here to whine about bad people working at DE. At this point one could ask them to create their own game if they're so smart.

Someone mentioned earlier Undertow had terrible damage, thus i recorded a test to be sure this power wasn't killing anything. I only used Hydroid first synergy (3th and 1st). Only a dozen seconds, 2 powers only and you're literally invulnerable. Sure you're static but that's how Hydroid has been designed and he can still use his 2nd to rush forward while underwater.

Then i tested a Saryn with a range build (i was also using a range build on my Hydroid), She needed one spore and three miasma to kill everyone. Sure with her range you're killing lots of enemies at once but (1) it has a cost energy wise (2) you're not invulnerable in the process and (3) you're doing way less damages - And Hydroid undertow can kill even faster if anyone shoot into it with a gun.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by 000l000

[Yousho]

9 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

Players always think they know better and by and large they don't. They only know what they personally want better.

True, but even a sock puppet with a missing eye could look at some of this stuff and know that it's an objectively awful idea. 

[Buttaface]

3 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Saryn TTK is far from being the best around,

Crock.

Spawn 8 165 corrupt gunners, cast lash from platform, cast spores from platform, cast molt and speed into mobs with fast, CO zaw staff (0 combo, if any combo counter, even faster TTK), swing a few times over 1.5-2 seconds, cast Miasma, all dead. Want to make it even faster? Add a corrosive blast Embolist spray just before Volt speed Saryn closes on the mobs. Good TTK from first closing/swing? Under 5 seconds, sometimes 3 seconds...on 8 level 165 Corrupted Heavy Gunners. Sick and tired of the "but but Saryn is only good at one thing!" nonsense that is spammed all over the forum. It's not true, not even remotely close to true. Most Saryn "players" are so bad that they can't augment the OP AOE with the frame's ridiculously OP melee dmg boost, self-healing from augmented molt, Volt speed kit, so they continue under the delusion that Saryn isn't completely and totally, ridiculously unbalanced.

Get back to us when you can beat that TTK with anything other than possibly some off the wall Mag Bubble Cheeze with a less than optimal weapon for general use, and which doesn't work over a broad area like spores and miasma. You won't because you can't.

To the topic, Khora has taken Hydroid's "one thing." Khora is a plain, objective upgrade to Hydroid as a matter of fact and not opinion, -that's- how good they are at character class and power design and balance in WF currently.

In better, competently designed and balanced games, you get banned for using an aimbot. In WF, it's one of the character classes. Yeah, that's some top drawer game design there.

I keep hoping that they were waiting to get through some of the more abusive/cheese frames' (Limbo/Mesaimbot/Killstealquinox) Prime Access to address the glaring hole of frame and power balance in WF. Will probably be still hoping this time next year.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Buttaface

[AzulMage]

4 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Saryn TTK is far from being the best around, she's only good because of her huge range - wait for a FoV nerf and no one will still play her. People are complaining about Hydroid damages but they don't even know how he really works, they're just spamming his 4th all day long and then they come here to whine about bad people working at DE. At this point one could ask them to create their own game if they're so smart.

Someone mentioned earlier Undertow had terrible damage, thus i recorded a test to be sure this power wasn't killing anything. I only used Hydroid first synergy (3th and 1st). Only a dozen seconds, 2 powers only and you're literally invulnerable. Sure you're static but that's how Hydroid has been designed and he can still use his 2nd to rush forward while underwater.

Then i tested a Saryn with a range build (i was also using a range build on my Hydroid), She needed one spore and three miasma to kill everyone. Sure with her range you're killing lots of enemies at once but (1) it has a cost energy wise (2) you're not invulnerable in the process and (3) you're doing way less damages - And Hydroid undertow can kill even faster if anyone shoot into it with a gun.

 

No one shoots into his 3. I have even told people to shoot into his 3 and instead they (rightfully) target enemies not caught in his 3 to kill them instead because that is more efficient for ridding the map of enemies. His 3 does not have terrible damage, it is infinite scaling but what it does have is SLOW scaling that again makes it a bad choice for killing fast in a game where killing fast has unfortunately become the game style. That plus every new enemy that enters begins it's own damaging scale. If the scale from previous enemies were conserved so each new enemy entering died faster, this would be a nicer option for killing.

Furthermore, I've personally used it in simulcrum, been impressed "wow, I can definitely get some fast kills, and plenty of them" and in actual practice the same does not happen. Enemies aren't static for you too just pool under a large group. Because there is no aggro effect to the puddle you have to turn into one at the right spot for them to walk into it and even then they won't necessarily do it unless you pull them in, and ultimately you rarely get as many enemies as you would hope to make the process worthwhile. On top of that as mentioned, it's slow. A dozen seconds is a lot in any game especially this one.

All that would be okay, because ultimately he is likely supposed to mainly be a CC frame so damage and killing should rightfully be secondary to good CC skills. But as mentioned by many posters, his CC is subpar. 1 locks down too randomly and for too short a time considering it's cost. 4 explodes people away then flails them rather than hold them in place so they can be shot. Both make for CC that isn't team friendly and not synergy friendly.

As I have stated, it's not that his abilities make him bad, it's that they AT BEST make him a mediocre choice in all instances. And it sucks only because small tweaks to how they work (as Hydroid mains have mentioned since they know him in and out and how he plays in several situations) would make him as viable as he appears in simulcrum.

Also, his 2 and passive are still pointless in how they currently work. I agree his 4 isn't meant to be for damage but since his 1 and 2 can't do it and his 3 has the issues already stated, it can lead to his 4 being the default especially for non-mains who don't know better.

So yeah, good damage potential that can never be realistically met and is slow anyway. CC that is either not too effective or an actual hindrance.

As for Khora replacing him for farming? I guess we will see. Console has had the new Khora augment for less time and I'll have to see how it goes. Her ability def does more damage, catches people in a static place so they can be shot down, and synergizes well with her own abilities and with nekros since it deals slash. But it's 65% rather than 100% so not sure how the offset works there. Even if she does, might be a gift in disguise because ultimately no one cared for having a Hydroid in team unless it was to farm. Maybe this will give DE more thoughts on how to make him viable in other ways. After of course Vauban and Wukong who definitely need more love than our main man here.

Edited May 10, 2019 by (NSW)SantCruz

[Balistica]

Yeah showing a video of Hydroid's TTK on a group of enemies all standing in his puddle already seems dishonest.  When I say TTK I start time from spawn, or visibility.  (Edit)  To be fair, if the puddle were more intuitive for teammates, and had an extra 5-10m on the base range, it would be a cool tool, but his other abilities would still be useless.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Balistica

[Balistica]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

While hydroid does have issues I wouldn't consider him to be bad.  I find lots of fun with how he currently plays.

I love how much more his gameplay is focused around puddle.  And I also find it endlessly fun to spam his 1 and keep my 4 out for chaotic cc.

Good for you dog, I can't have fun playing a character that is weak if I spend all my time doing high level content.  But also, don't conflate good with fun.  You can have fun playing a bad character, the two things aren't connected.  If you don't care about how he performs at decent tiers this isn't the thread for you.  I think you're right in saying his puddle is a fun mechanic to play around, I think if they were to rework him they should retain that part of his identity.

[Balistica]

10 hours ago, ryvrdrgn14 said:

• Make Hydroid's passive 100% so that it will be a reliable tool when doing combos that end with a ground slam. Give Hydroid some armor when he is within a certain range of his tentacles. Now you have melee Hydroid.
• Make Hydroid's passve have a chance of summoning a tentacle when you either get a head shot on an enemy. So now you have the bonus of tentacles appearing when you shoot stuff. 
• Give Hydroid a mod where he immediately turns into a puddle while reloading then he returns afterwards. Make it add some other stuff like faster reloading or some other additional benefit.
• Make a giant anchor melee weapon. Give Hydroid a bonus with it.

There are a lot more fun things they can do to make him interesting to play.

That's a good Idea for Hydroid's current passive, but I don't think they should keep any mechanic that relies on slam attacks.  They kinda took all the slam attacks out of combos.

If he turned into a puddle when reloading, reloading in the air would always instantly drag you to the ground.  His puddle kinda doesn't synergize with the movement system.

I'm in on the anchor, let's get it.  Would it be a hammer or a whip?

[ryvrdrgn14]

1 hour ago, Balistica said:

That's a good Idea for Hydroid's current passive, but I don't think they should keep any mechanic that relies on slam attacks.  They kinda took all the slam attacks out of combos.

If he turned into a puddle when reloading, reloading in the air would always instantly drag you to the ground.  His puddle kinda doesn't synergize with the movement system.

I'm in on the anchor, let's get it.  Would it be a hammer or a whip?

He can turn into a surge if he's reloading in the air or a puddle in the ground or just have it only work if he's grounded to keep it simple. I guess it can work out that way. As for the anchor, I guess it'll be a hammer, but they can add slash to it to make it more desirable.

As for the passive with slams, they can just change it into summoning a tentacle when he either does a headshot with a range weapon or when he either crits or procs a status with melee. Maybe they can just add a short cooldown of maybe 5-6 seconds so that it doesn't keep respawning with every shot.

Edited May 10, 2019 by ryvrdrgn14

[000l000]

Il y a 7 heures, (NSW)SantCruz a dit :

No one shoots into his 3. I have even told people to shoot into his 3 and instead they (rightfully) target enemies not caught in his 3 to kill them instead because that is more efficient for ridding the map of enemies. His 3 does not have terrible damage, it is infinite scaling but what it does have is SLOW scaling that again makes it a bad choice for killing fast in a game where killing fast has unfortunately become the game style. That plus every new enemy that enters begins it's own damaging scale. If the scale from previous enemies were conserved so each new enemy entering died faster, this would be a nicer option for killing.

Furthermore, I've personally used it in simulcrum, been impressed "wow, I can definitely get some fast kills, and plenty of them" and in actual practice the same does not happen. Enemies aren't static for you too just pool under a large group. Because there is no aggro effect to the puddle you have to turn into one at the right spot for them to walk into it and even then they won't necessarily do it unless you pull them in, and ultimately you rarely get as many enemies as you would hope to make the process worthwhile. On top of that as mentioned, it's slow. A dozen seconds is a lot in any game especially this one.

I was only replying to those who were stating that Undertow had "meh damage" which is a total lack of knowledge of how Hydroid works, nothing else. After a few seconds and only by using his 1st i was dealing 25k hits to anything into, level 100 heavily armoured enemies are killed in a really short time for a really low cost so i don't think that scaling is an issue. Sure level 160 could take more time (even if his 1st can help with armor stripping) but that's quite a common concern among plenty of frames atm. Balancing the game doesn't start with some kind of niche content - tbh most players have little to no chance to ever encounter anything else above 100-120 so tbh i don't even care. At this point we definitely have guns to do the job until DE works on a better scaling (and they wil).

You mentioned the grab ability which is a really nice asset to compensate his lack of range, and i said previously two things could have helped Hydroid at this point. He doesn't necessarily needs a bigger puddle, 6-7m is already quite decent and i don't think that moving a 20m puddle wouldn't lead to bugs and collision issues, but (1) adding an area effect to the grab ability would really be nice and (2) charging undertow instead of sharing damages would also make it more interesting on the mid-long run, having to cast his 1st again each time i grab a new guy isn't really smooth gameplay - but charging it one or twice myself and absorbing enemies could make this underrated power way more ambitious.

And something should be done to add some incentive to shoot into it, perhaps adding some enemies drowning at the surface would make enemies shoot at it, something like that. I really think that a visual rework would help in that department. For now it's as stupid as to not shooting into Mag's bubbles.

Finally i wouldn't halve the tidal wave range when used upon undertow effect, the same way Revenant works i really think they should halve the tidal wave cost instead to make it a real utility power since it lacks of serious damage. Thus we could absorb way more enemies while moving around. It wouldn't change Hydroid into some lazy press-4-to-win but at least it would make more people eager to use undertow.

Edited May 11, 2019 by 000l000

[Balistica]

On 2019-05-10 at 10:37 PM, 000l000 said:

I was only replying to those who were stating that Undertow had "meh damage" which is a total lack of knowledge of how Hydroid works, nothing else. After a few seconds and only by using his 1st i was dealing 25k hits to anything into, level 100 heavily armoured enemies are killed in a really short time for a really low cost so i don't think that scaling is an issue. Sure level 160 could take more time (even if his 1st can help with armor stripping) but that's quite a common concern among plenty of frames atm. Balancing the game doesn't start with some kind of niche content - tbh most players have little to no chance to ever encounter anything else above 100-120 so tbh i don't even care. At this point we definitely have guns to do the job until DE works on a better scaling (and they wil).

You mentioned the grab ability which is a really nice asset to compensate his lack of range, and i said previously two things could have helped Hydroid at this point. He doesn't necessarily needs a bigger puddle, 6-7m is already quite decent and i don't think that moving a 20m puddle wouldn't lead to bugs and collision issues, but (1) adding an area effect to the grab ability would really be nice and (2) charging undertow instead of sharing damages would also make it more interesting on the mid-long run, having to cast his 1st again each time i grab a new guy isn't really smooth gameplay - but charging it one or twice myself and absorbing enemies could make this underrated power way more ambitious.

And something should be done to add some incentive to shoot into it, perhaps adding some enemies drowning at the surface would make enemies shoot at it, something like that. I really think that a visual rework would help in that department. For now it's as stupid as to not shooting into Mag's bubbles.

Finally i wouldn't halve the tidal wave range when used upon undertow effect, the same way Revenant works i really think they should halve the tidal wave cost instead to make it a real utility power since it lacks of serious damage. Thus we could absorb way more enemies while moving around. It wouldn't change Hydroid into some lazy press-4-to-win but at least it would make more people eager to use undertow.

idk if you saw my response to your puddle theory, but I stressed very hard that DPS is not the same as time to kill.  Arguing that he has good damage is bad faith arguing, and I'd ask you to be a little more honest.  You don't kill level 100 heavily armored units for low cost, because to kill the same amount of enemies other characters can kill at a farther range, costs significant energy.  In the perfect scenario where your teammates let units get all the way to you, you will be spending valuable dps time pulling the individual units.

I suppose Hydoid doesn't "need" a bigger puddle, but I also suppose Saryn doesn't "need" free armor added into her rework, or innate energy regen, or move speed.  I'm also gonna pretend I didn't read that you want more charge times.  Yikes.  Also Mag's bubble has a larger visual queue, and frankly, I have trouble shooting around it sometimes.  So not really comparable.  

[000l000]

Il y a 2 heures, Balistica a dit :

idk if you saw my response to your puddle theory, but I stressed very hard that DPS is not the same as time to kill.  Arguing that he has good damage is bad faith arguing, and I'd ask you to be a little more honest.  You don't kill level 100 heavily armored units for low cost, because to kill the same amount of enemies other characters can kill at a farther range, costs significant energy.  In the perfect scenario where your teammates let units get all the way to you, you will be spending valuable dps time pulling the individual units.

I suppose Hydoid doesn't "need" a bigger puddle, but I also suppose Saryn doesn't "need" free armor added into her rework, or innate energy regen, or move speed.  I'm also gonna pretend I didn't read that you want more charge times.  Yikes.  Also Mag's bubble has a larger visual queue, and frankly, I have trouble shooting around it sometimes.  So not really comparable.  

What you say doesn't make any sense, and tbh the only thing you seem to be able to is to complain. Such a waste of time.

[Balistica]

46 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

What you say doesn't make any sense, and tbh the only thing you seem to be able to is to complain. Such a waste of time.

OK I feel like the fundamental difference here is you don't know the difference between DPS and Time to Kill.  DPS (here at least) is just a measurement of Damage you can do per second to and enemy you're guaranteed to hit.  Time to Kill would be a measurement of how fast you can kill an enemy starting from spawn/coming into vision.  So, even though Hydroid's damage on an enemy he pulls in might be good, but the time it takes to kill groups or maps of enemies is very slow.

The energy cost of maintaining his puddle over time is too high if you want to kill as many enemies as a normal dps frame would.

When you said Hydroid's puddle didn't need changed, I referenced how when they reworked Saryn they also tacked on the buffs to her armor, movespeed, and energy regen. 

I felt like saying it's stupid to not shoot the puddle is putting too much fault on the person, but that seems unfair, especially since the visual update made it harder to see.

I hope I explained myself better for you.

[EothasianBoar]

15 hours ago, Balistica said:

especially since the visual update made it harder to see.

Made me missed the old puddle visual. Energy color used to be so prominent on it. And with the new mechanic of being able to shoot it and Curative Undertow needs your allies to stand on it for the heal; you thought it'll better to make puddle easy to see, not hard. Even the "mist" effect of the augment is harder to see after the update. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

On 2019-05-08 at 8:03 PM, Balistica said:

Hydroid has been my main for years now and I'm not exaggerating when I say it broke my heart to see how little love was put into the rework.  It felt like there was no insight into what a Hydroid player would want, and it scares me to think that it may be years and years before another rework comes along.  I put together a list of the core things that are wrong with him, or went wrong with the update.

*Passive is completely boring and useless
*The charge times on his 1 and 4 aren't fun to use at all, it slows him down and kills him.  The way his tentacles work fundamentally means he has to keep placing them down.  I like to compare this to if Saryn were to be given 2 seconds charge times on her 1 and 4. (Saryn players don't like that idea)
*His wave contradicts his low duration replacing tentacles build.  I also think all Hydroid mains wanted the size of the wave to scale with range.
*His puddle has an absurdly low base range and only pulls one enemy at a time.  Building enough range to get to 30m requires Hydroid to forgo too many stats, and his kit uses all the stats.
*Puddle size doesn't scale with range.
*When casting 4 from Puddle, the tentacles shouldn't center in the puddle, It's not very useful.
*There's no damage in his kit anywhere.
*There's no defense anywhere in his kit.
*His CC is subpar and requires much much more activity/energy than other frames.
*He has no Energy or Health Sustain.
*His 4 is too inconsistent, changing it to a channel that summons tentacles seems like a much more engaging and consistent alternative.
*He has no tools to deal with enemies stuck in tentacles.  (Though I believe the tentacles are an ancient system anyway)
*No good defensive augments, and the farm augment that keeps him played is worse than Nekros', but Nekros also outshines him in every other category.

Overall
*Hydroid isn't more fun to play
*Isn't played more (I truly don't count just farming and neither should you)
*Isn't healthier

I really feel passionately about this and would like to talk to someone about this, but it's so underplayed it's hard to talk about the problems I have without getting shrugged off.  I think Hydroid thematically is something people really like, and if his gameplay held up, everyone would want to play the pirate character.
If you played Vauban, Nezha, Wukong, Nyx, Mag, then you know my plight brothers, lend me your aid.

Hes not bad. His 1 and 4 can lock down a map. His 3 can kill anything at any level. His 2 is fun for crossing water, or lazer barriers, or cc'ing. Hes a great frame and he's pretty tanky. My only issue is drop the charge mechanics.

[Balistica]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Hes not bad. His 1 and 4 can lock down a map. His 3 can kill anything at any level. His 2 is fun for crossing water, or lazer barriers, or cc'ing. Hes a great frame and he's pretty tanky. My only issue is drop the charge mechanics.

Look at my other posts in this thread, I address all that stuff.  But for a quick summary, his 1 is inconsistent, his 4 is inconsistent, cc without dmg is bad, his 3 is slow to kill enemies when including travel and pull time, crossing barriers is a noob problem, and none of his abilities give him tank bonuses.  Just because you think a character is fun, doesn't mean it's good.  Wouldn't Hydroid be MORE fun if his wave size scaled with range, or his puddle had a larger pull range.  If all you care about is fun then you should want a change, since it would be more fun if he were stronger.  

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 minute ago, Balistica said:

Look at my other posts in this thread, I address all that stuff.  But for a quick summary, his 1 is inconsistent, his 4 is inconsistent, cc without dmg is bad, his 3 is slow to kill enemies when including travel and pull time, crossing barriers is a noob problem, and none of his abilities give him tank bonuses.  Just because you think a character is fun, doesn't mean it's good.  Wouldn't Hydroid be MORE fun if his wave size scaled with range, or his puddle had a larger pull range.  If all you care about is fun then you should want a change, since it would be more fun if he were stronger.  

Crossing barriers is fun. Not a noob problem, just fun. I want his charge to go away... I love the fact that his 4 does finisher damage... Bypassing armor and shielding. I love the fact that his 3 is super op if u kno how to mod properly. I love his one especially with corrosive augment... Pretty dang neat. Hes a fun frame and a good frame.

[Balistica]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Crossing barriers is fun. Not a noob problem, just fun. I want his charge to go away... I love the fact that his 4 does finisher damage... Bypassing armor and shielding. I love the fact that his 3 is super op if u kno how to mod properly. I love his one especially with corrosive augment... Pretty dang neat. Hes a fun frame and a good frame.

His 3 isn't super OP for the same reason Nova's 2 isn't super OP, because "Hypothetical" damage ISN'T DPS.  An enemy that happens to not be killed by your team long enough to make it to your Strength build puddle, is still gonna take an additional 10ish seconds to die.  (lvl 110 Gunner)  That's so slow as far as DPS frames go.  Even if you could kill it in 3-5 seconds AFTER it gets to the puddle, that's still slow.  Maybe you should make a thread and call it, "Hydroid is fun and neat on a lvl 30 mission if all the enemies spawn ontop of your puddle"