It breaks my heart that Hydroid is so bad

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

I would really love it if his fourth was akin to something like when Kisame fuses with his Samehada. Not that all frames need synergy but his abilities feel more like on the spot ideas and not a thoughtful process. Undertow is cool ish but boring the charge mechanic is wonky and always boring. Just let him turn into the Kraken and become an exalted melee with water guns/cannon shots.. his 1 would be fin if it wasnt a charge and his 2 would be fine if it was radial. His abilities could do other or better things in his kraken form the arguments could still work the same and it would be a bit more functional like a lead up to kraken form rather than constant synergy.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi said:

I would really love it if his fourth was akin to something like when Kisame fuses with his Samehada. Not that all frames need synergy but his abilities feel more like on the spot ideas and not a thoughtful process. Undertow is cool ish but boring the charge mechanic is wonky and always boring. Just let him turn into the Kraken and become an exalted melee with water guns/cannon shots.. his 1 would be fin if it wasnt a charge and his 2 would be fine if it was radial. His abilities could do other or better things in his kraken form the arguments could still work the same and it would be a bit more functional like a lead up to kraken form rather than constant synergy.

no thanks for exalted anything.

[EinheriarJudith]

and here we arrived again talking about speed of killing. hydroid in the first place is not a DPS frame. hes a CC frame, his rework made it so now he can also kill.

i do not run a strength build hydroid and yet im able to kill 160 lvl CBombard with just corroding barrage and undertow (just these 2 skills). i dont care that he kills faster or slower than any frame because he makes sure enemies cannot fight back and those other frames can kill them even easier by keeping enemies in one spot.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[AzulMage]

2 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Crossing barriers is fun. Not a noob problem, just fun. I want his charge to go away... I love the fact that his 4 does finisher damage... Bypassing armor and shielding. I love the fact that his 3 is super op if u kno how to mod properly. I love his one especially with corrosive augment... Pretty dang neat. Hes a fun frame and a good frame.

His 3 can kill anything. Very slowly. Other frames and weapons can kill what Hydroid can in 2 seconds. But as stated before, Hydroid is likely supposed to be a CC frame. As other posts from myself and other Hydroid users have mentioned, he is subpar at this. He can lockdown a map with his 1 for a very short time. His 4 can lockdown sure, but like his 1 is not consistent in where exactly it will hit. His 4 does true damage as you mentioned, but it's too low to matter in later content even when (as I have) you mod for power strength (which does improve his 3 killing power but is still slow as hell and weapons beat it out as a result). His 4 is also bad because it swings those it's CCing wildly so you can't aim and kill them since god knows the tentacles won't. Also, the initial tentacle cast for some reason launches everyone.

I agree he is fun, that's why he is my main. But fun is not the OP's point in their original post. I even find Vauban fun but we all know he isn't necessarily good. It sucks when every other frame can outkill you easily so you never get to contribute. Then, the few opportunities you can actually CC in this game, people tell you not to cast 4 because it throw enemies across the map or because it leaves enemies alive and hard to hit. His 3 is almost his saving grace except that it's far too slow in a game where time to kill is the goal. Also, his 2 I literally only use for what you mentioned with barriers. It's crap otherwise.

Sounds negative, but the way I see it his kit is fun in how they have unique effects and somewhat synergize in good ways (though as I mentioned in a previous post, his 3 and 4 have anti-synergy) and make for a frame that really has things no other has. But they are ultimately not very effective in the game. Useable? Of course. Effective? Meh

Edited May 13, 2019 by (NSW)SantCruz

[Balistica]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

and here we arrived again talking about speed of killing. hydroid in the first place is not a DPS frame. hes a CC frame, his rework made it so now he can also kill.

i do not run a strength build hydroid and yet im able to kill 160 lvl CBombard with just corroding barrage and undertow (just these 2 skills). i dont care that he kills faster or slower than any frame because he makes sure enemies cannot fight back and those other frames can kill them even easier by keeping enemies in one spot.

 

I'm obviously not isolating damage as the only important stat for Hydroid.  When compared to the other things he brings to the table, he brings proportionately low damage.  His CC will never in your life CC an entire map.  Saying so is dishonest, or exaggerated.  The word "can", doesn't really mean anything.  Just because he "can" kill something doesn't mean it will kill at a healthy speed.  I "can" kill a level 160 Bombard with a Veldt, even though it's slow.  That doesn't make it good, obviously.  So if he's got low damage, CC that's inconsistent on a fundamental level, and no buffs/debuffs, then he's got no place in the meta.  If we were to put these categories into numbers, we would put Hildryn at 20/40/40, Hydroid would be at /20/30/0.  In your fantasy world, Hydroid would be at 40/60/0.  

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, Balistica said:

I'm obviously not isolating damage as the only important stat for Hydroid.  When compared to the other things he brings to the table, he brings proportionately low damage.  His CC will never in your life CC an entire map.  Saying so is dishonest, or exaggerated.  The word "can", doesn't really mean anything.  Just because he "can" kill something doesn't mean it will kill at a healthy speed.  I "can" kill a level 160 Bombard with a Veldt, even though it's slow.  That doesn't make it good, obviously.  So if he's got low damage, CC that's inconsistent on a fundamental level, and no buffs/debuffs, then he's got no place in the meta.  If we were to put these categories into numbers, we would put Hildryn at 20/40/40, Hydroid would be at /20/30/0.  In your fantasy world, Hydroid would be at 40/60/0.  

show me where i said he can CC a whole map. you are still acting like he should be in the same league as DPS frames when he is in fact not a DPS frame. other than the things i detailed in my post about what would solve some problems i actually enjoy his kit. if you want to play a DPS frame you should instead do that. his CC can still lock down choke points or specific areas. nothing inconsistent about that.

[Guest]

On 2019-05-11 at 2:20 AM, Buttaface said:

Spawn 8 165 corrupt gunners, cast lash from platform, cast spores from platform, cast molt and speed into mobs with fast, CO zaw staff (0 combo, if any combo counter, even faster TTK),

Already overstating it when you mention CO Zaw Staff. Especially if it has Maiming Strike and Blood Rush on top of that. In that case, Saryn is just applying the status procs, which you can do with things like Pox ... or any other frame that can apply a load of procs. It's not even "Saryn is good with melee and has super TTK" but rather "I have OP Zaw hurr durr". Pretty nonsensical.

Why does the Saryn nerf whine even make it to a Hydroid Thread???

[Balistica]

10 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

show me where i said he can CC a whole map. you are still acting like he should be in the same league as DPS frames when he is in fact not a DPS frame. other than the things i detailed in my post about what would solve some problems i actually enjoy his kit. if you want to play a DPS frame you should instead do that. his CC can still lock down choke points or specific areas. nothing inconsistent about that.

I confused your post for someone else's who said he could lock down a whole map.  BUT I very clearly layed out what I thought Hydroid's kit leaned towards.  When I say he brings PROPORTIONATELY low damage to the table, I'm referring to his split between Damage/CC/Utility.  His proportions are all wacky, and if we're balancing in the same way we balance all other frames, either his damage should be higher, his CC should be stronger, or he should offer some team utility.  I don't know if he needs more damage, that doesn't really matter to me.  If they decided to better optimize him for full CC tomorrow that would be fine, I like the theme and parts of the kit.  (As I clearly don't play him for damage) 

So my argument isn't that he doesn't do enough damage, it's that he does very little damage when compared to how poor his CC is.  It goes the other way around as well, he has very poor CC for how little damage he does.  That's why (personally) I rated him 20/30/0 (Damage/CC/Utility).  Ideally I want to see him at 30/50/20.  I think his damage is pretty close, but his CC range and consistency is poorer, than other frames who do more damage, offer more team value, and CC better.  I also believe he could use some level of self buff that synergizes with his gameplay to tie it together. (Thus the 20)

But I definitely don't care if you "enjoy his kit" as I've said a bunch of times in here, you can enjoy a kit and it still be bad.  I enjoy his puddle mechanic, it's core to his identity, but it's extremely slow to kill and slows down his gameplay.  

For clarity, when I compare Hydroid to other characters, I compare him to every other character in the select categories, then I compare their total value as warframes.  So I would compare his CC to Nova's, then compare his value as a teammate to Nova's.  Or compare his damage to Excalibur, then his total usefulness. 

[Balistica]

29 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Already overstating it when you mention CO Zaw Staff. Especially if it has Maiming Strike and Blood Rush on top of that. In that case, Saryn is just applying the status procs, which you can do with things like Pox ... or any other frame that can apply a load of procs. It's not even "Saryn is good with melee and has super TTK" but rather "I have OP Zaw hurr durr". Pretty nonsensical.

Why does the Saryn nerf whine even make it to a Hydroid Thread???

Cause she was blessed in her update, but Hydroid got worse in his update.  It's a lil messed up.  I like Saryn though no nerfs.

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

7 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

no thanks for exalted anything.

How very constructive.  But that's your opinion so cool I guess just delete him.

[EothasianBoar]

What if he has a way of extend the reach of his puddle through gameplay, i.e. not just mods. I have a fantasy for him but I'm afraid it might be too complicated. And if Tentacle is near a puddle drag its victim underneath the puddle then seek out new one.

[Buttaface]

7 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Already overstating it when you mention CO Zaw Staff. Especially if it has Maiming Strike and Blood Rush on top of that. In that case, Saryn is just applying the status procs, which you can do with things like Pox ... or any other frame that can apply a load of procs. It's not even "Saryn is good with melee and has super TTK" but rather "I have OP Zaw hurr durr". Pretty nonsensical.

Why does the Saryn nerf whine even make it to a Hydroid Thread???

Wrong, that the zaw is powerful doesn't change the fact that Saryn is the most powerful with it due to toxic lash and synergy with spores/miasma. Fallacious, not surprised.

And how does Saryn nerf make it into this thread? Ask the Saryn player who posted a VIDEO understating Saryn's OP nature by a mile. Read thread.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2019-05-10 at 3:30 PM, Balistica said:

Good for you dog, I can't have fun playing a character that is weak if I spend all my time doing high level content.  But also, don't conflate good with fun.  You can have fun playing a bad character, the two things aren't connected.  If you don't care about how he performs at decent tiers this isn't the thread for you.  I think you're right in saying his puddle is a fun mechanic to play around, I think if they were to rework him they should retain that part of his identity.

I think the high level content thing is a bit on the nose.  Any frame can do perfectly fine in any content.  Thus you're meaning because Hydroid isn't efficient at high content you're not having fun.  But that's a bit on the nose because CC frames in general are not efficient in this DPS era.

I do care about how every frame performs.  I just don't think we need to push every frame to meta tier to satisfy people who main a certain frame. As I already mentioned he does have issues.  But there are other frames that are far more deserving of attention currently compared to hydroid.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Wrong, that the zaw is powerful doesn't change the fact that Saryn is the most powerful with it due to toxic lash and synergy with spores/miasma. Fallacious, not surprised.

And how does Saryn nerf make it into this thread? Ask the Saryn player who posted a VIDEO understating Saryn's OP nature by a mile. Read thread.

The video is irrelevant. The fact is that Hydroid has no necessity to slide with Zaw after pressing another skill, plus he is invincible when he does it all. Sure, continue flexing your Zaw and Meme Strike man. So damned impressive right? I mean many people have Meta Zaws too so I don't get why you are so hung up on it.

[Buttaface]

6 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

The video is irrelevant. The fact is that Hydroid has no necessity to slide with Zaw after pressing another skill, plus he is invincible when he does it all. Sure, continue flexing your Zaw and Meme Strike man. So damned impressive right? I mean many people have Meta Zaws too so I don't get why you are so hung up on it.

-You- asked where the Saryn nerf discussion entered the thread and so no, the video is not "irrelevant" as a matter of fact because it is the direct answer to your question. No one "flexed" any "zaw and Meme Strike muscles." My post that you inanely responded to doesn't even mention Maiming Strike because the example doesn't use it. Your posts rarely fail to disappoint.
 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Buttaface said:

-You- asked where the Saryn nerf discussion entered the thread and so no, the video is not "irrelevant" as a matter of fact because it is the direct answer to your question. No one "flexed" any "zaw and Meme Strike muscles." My post that you inanely responded to doesn't even mention Maiming Strike because the example doesn't use it. Your posts rarely fail to disappoint.
 

Considering your rather one sided hate of Saryn, I don't even think I need to continue this, but I will entertain you. The videos do not show build, so it is of course not difficult to change the situation in various ways using mods. Even if you consider that, Saryn has damage bonuses vs Heavy Gunners thanks to Corrosive, so if he used Bombards it may end different, with a larger advantage to Hydroid, actually, given all conditions remain equal for the videos.

Also, you noticed he used eight enemies only in the video. You should know gameplay wise, the situation can be anywhere from one enemy to twenty four. You will never get eight enemies exactly all the time. Simulacrum is basically a flex place, so testing frame powers there don't really mean much. It's more useful for weapons.

The videos are therefore pretty dumb and don't mean much. Their relevance is quite low, actually. You simply grab the opportunity, however slim, to slip in your Saryn whine whenever you have the chance ... even when the thread is just about Hydroid. Is all you can do resorting to ad hominem to justify your whine?

So can you just stop it and go back to Hydroid?

Edited May 14, 2019 by Guest

[Balistica]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I think the high level content thing is a bit on the nose.  Any frame can do perfectly fine in any content.  Thus you're meaning because Hydroid isn't efficient at high content you're not having fun.  But that's a bit on the nose because CC frames in general are not efficient in this DPS era.

I do care about how every frame performs.  I just don't think we need to push every frame to meta tier to satisfy people who main a certain frame. As I already mentioned he does have issues.  But there are other frames that are far more deserving of attention currently compared to hydroid.

Holy wow you're using the phrase on the nose wrong.  The first time you say it, I think it might be in place of exaggerated?  I'm really not sure, that kinda fits.  But the second time you use it, it's in a completely different way.  Do you mean irrelevant in the second one?  Is this a problem I'm having or is this weird?

If we just say all characters are viable at high level, that seems reductive.  We're dealing with different definitions here, where you believe viable to mean playable.  Technically I could stack health shield and armor mods and play Hydroid with a Catchmoon Riven, but that doesn't make his kit good/healthy/fun.  My definition of viable is going to be comparing his capabilities to other frames in similar departments.

I'm not even sure how in the same breath, you can say you don't think all frames should be bumped up to meta tier, but also that there are more important frames to look at.  The first issue being can you provide me a good reason why it's bad for all the frames to be of a similar power level?  The second issue being what frames are more important right now to be looked at?  The only frame I think maybe fails more developmental tenets is Wukong, being that his kit is underwhelming, disengaging, and unhealthy.  He probably deserves a rework more than Hydroid, BUT they have already done a rework for Hydroid, which means the next time they look at him will be very very far in the future.  That means these grievances need to be aired lest they brush him under the rug forever.  (Which is a despairing thought)

In summary, please tell me what you meant by on the nose, I must know.
Yours truly, Earthlings

 

[Balistica]

19 hours ago, AhLiu338 said:

What if he has a way of extend the reach of his puddle through gameplay, i.e. not just mods. I have a fantasy for him but I'm afraid it might be too complicated. And if Tentacle is near a puddle drag its victim underneath the puddle then seek out new one.

Go to page 1 and read my hypothetical rework (which I try not to share too often because I don't want to scare devs away).  You might like it.

[Buttaface]

11 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

You simply grab the opportunity, however slim, to slip in your Saryn whine whenever you have the chance ... even when the thread is just about Hydroid. Is all you can do resorting to ad hominem to justify your whine?

So can you just stop it and go back to Hydroid?

Rest of post was irrelevant and nonresponsive, but as to the above, for the last time, it wasn't me who introduced Saryn into the thread, but someone else who made a typical claim that Saryn is not OP, so it wasn't me who opened that can of worms. Get that through your skull, won't repeat it again.

And as far as "Saryn hate," no I regularly post very clearly, did so in this thread IIRC, that there are 20-30 AOE radial spam skills that need nerfing. Not singling out Saryn. Saryn is only the most glaring example of incompetence in frame powers and balance in WF, and so tends to get brought up the most.

As far as the topic goes, since Khora's cage augment has made her a straight upgrade to Hydroid in several ways, and he was primed long ago, I wouldn't hold my breath for any rework on him, even though one is badly needed.

[musicalsocks23]

53 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Khora's cage augment has made her a straight upgrade to Hydroid in several ways

I would disagree with this.

i have done thorough testing with both frames in the capacity of being a loot frame. Though there are pros and cons to both frames, Hydroid seems to come out on top each time.

Both Hydroid and Khora have comparable range and duration when maxed, so that is not a problem. Hydroid lacks the base damage with his tentacles that Khora has, but benefits by having the 100% drop rate in his augment. However, Khora has the ability to cast two strangledomes; a benefit right? Wrong. The base efficiency of Khora is much lower than Hydroid which results in very rarely being able to feasibly sustain both strangledomes. 

Also, Hydroid, though limited to how many enemies he can retain in his tentacles, is actually more efficient at retaining the enemies if they come near as the tentacles can flex to reach them, where Khora’s strangledome is restricted to retaining enemies at the intersects of the net of the strangledome. This means that she is really only feasible for jumping into a pack of enemies and casting it, instead of the simplicity of casting it and leaving it to do its job. 

 

[AzulMage]

29 minutes ago, musicalsocks23 said:

I would disagree with this.

i have done thorough testing with both frames in the capacity of being a loot frame. Though there are pros and cons to both frames, Hydroid seems to come out on top each time.

Both Hydroid and Khora have comparable range and duration when maxed, so that is not a problem. Hydroid lacks the base damage with his tentacles that Khora has, but benefits by having the 100% drop rate in his augment. However, Khora has the ability to cast two strangledomes; a benefit right? Wrong. The base efficiency of Khora is much lower than Hydroid which results in very rarely being able to feasibly sustain both strangledomes. 

Also, Hydroid, though limited to how many enemies he can retain in his tentacles, is actually more efficient at retaining the enemies if they come near as the tentacles can flex to reach them, where Khora’s strangledome is restricted to retaining enemies at the intersects of the net of the strangledome. This means that she is really only feasible for jumping into a pack of enemies and casting it, instead of the simplicity of casting it and leaving it to do its job. 

 

I haven't tested them, but what about the synergy with Nekros? Strabgledome can deal slash damage which is why I think people mentioned she would be a better pick, since Nekros is better for loot then both of them and you would bring Khora or Hydroid more as a supplement rather than have them alone most of the time

[musicalsocks23]

38 minutes ago, (NSW)SantCruz said:

what about the synergy with Nekros

I did take this into account with my testing and frequently ran missions with a Nekros with each frames. While the innate slash is beneficial, I found that slash procs were easier by bringing a high slash melee with extended range, such as the Secura Lecta. By doing this, the slash procs did not matter as much and you can ensure your tentacles are free as well. 

I have long since discarded Hydroid as a viable solo loot frame, and I would apply the same generalization to Khora. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

12 hours ago, Balistica said:

Holy wow you're using the phrase on the nose wrong.  The first time you say it, I think it might be in place of exaggerated?  I'm really not sure, that kinda fits.  But the second time you use it, it's in a completely different way.  Do you mean irrelevant in the second one?  Is this a problem I'm having or is this weird?

If we just say all characters are viable at high level, that seems reductive.  We're dealing with different definitions here, where you believe viable to mean playable.  Technically I could stack health shield and armor mods and play Hydroid with a Catchmoon Riven, but that doesn't make his kit good/healthy/fun.  My definition of viable is going to be comparing his capabilities to other frames in similar departments.

I'm not even sure how in the same breath, you can say you don't think all frames should be bumped up to meta tier, but also that there are more important frames to look at.  The first issue being can you provide me a good reason why it's bad for all the frames to be of a similar power level?  The second issue being what frames are more important right now to be looked at?  The only frame I think maybe fails more developmental tenets is Wukong, being that his kit is underwhelming, disengaging, and unhealthy.  He probably deserves a rework more than Hydroid, BUT they have already done a rework for Hydroid, which means the next time they look at him will be very very far in the future.  That means these grievances need to be aired lest they brush him under the rug forever.  (Which is a despairing thought)

In summary, please tell me what you meant by on the nose, I must know.
Yours truly, Earthlings

 

I'm pretty awful with words sometimes.  The first time I use the phrase i'm trying to say that the wording is a bit misleading.  And the second one you're right on.

No when I say viable I mean viable.  The parameters on what is considered viable is just different between you and me.

I'm not sure what is confusing about that statement.  There are other frames that actually struggle to have a cohesive thing going on.  Where as Hydroid is perfectly fine where he's at as a cc machine.  The reason I mentioned the "meta tier" thing is because it's quite a common site for me to see people saying x frame needs to be better because y frame does what x does but better.  Or makes x frame irrelevant.  Basically I don't believe a frame needs to be the best at what it does to be considered relevant/viable/etc.  (hence meta tier.)

Wukong, Revenant, Chroma, Titania, Nyx, Ember, Vauban, Mirage, Atlas, Valkyr.

[EinheriarJudith]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm pretty awful with words sometimes.  The first time I use the phrase i'm trying to say that the wording is a bit misleading.  And the second one you're right on.

No when I say viable I mean viable.  The parameters on what is considered viable is just different between you and me.

I'm not sure what is confusing about that statement.  There are other frames that actually struggle to have a cohesive thing going on.  Where as Hydroid is perfectly fine where he's at as a cc machine.  The reason I mentioned the "meta tier" thing is because it's quite a common site for me to see people saying x frame needs to be better because y frame does what x does but better.  Or makes x frame irrelevant.  Basically I don't believe a frame needs to be the best at what it does to be considered relevant/viable/etc.  (hence meta tier.)

Wukong, Revenant, Chroma, Titania, Nyx, Ember, Vauban, Mirage, Atlas, Valkyr.

people say it all the time how loki does nyxs job better. its become so annoying. the overlap in this game is ridiculous. ive said it before DE needs to stop making frames and fix broken systems.

[(PSN)sonicizanagi]

I don't really play hydroid because I see that he was really disruptive to his team if he was there and wasn't very appealing to play. So I'll post my ideas and see if you all agree or not.

(Passive) chest of greed- enemies killed in submerge give % of health, over Shields, or if not needed converts to increase loot drop for the team stacks up to 3x

The increased loot drop will function like an aura and if he is damaged it will drop a stack

1.) Submerge - creates up to 3x puddles which still function like undertow 

Submerge will accumulate damage much like Sayrn and the stacks will function like equinox

2.) Song of storms (Channeling) - summoning a storm Hydroid lures enemies into the vicinity lowering accuracy, deafening, and slowing while increasing all damage for submerge 

Trying to give hydroid much more team friendly CC Ability that encourages the inclusion in more team formats.

3.) Kraken - the kraken lurks in the puddles cast from oldest to newest lashing out to drag in unsuspecting enemies then deals toxin damage upon leaving if no puddles are available kraken will attack priming enemies for guaranteed energy and loot drops

Much like how most people use Hydroid for loot I decided to double down on it sense it would make since thematically. And the energy refund is a thing I included from nidus that would likely help his survivability.

4.) Anchor (Charging) - rising from the depths the anchor will buff nearby allies attack power and take % of damage dealt stored from submerge to further increase the buff while summoning hydroid is locked in place being invulnerable and upon releasing the anchor it drags surrounding enemies together instantly falling back to the depths giving a mutiplier and the number of enemies grabbed to the accumulated submerge damage.

When thinking about Hydroid I gave him good damage, CC, Survivability and so I wanted to give him a supportive 4th ability. So I gave him an attack buff where he'll be rooted so he won't overwhelm the team by submerging all the enemies and let the allies do what they need to ,But if he gets overrun this allows him to fill the gap with a brief time to think akin to Atlas's 4 and Harrow's 3 and 4.

Please leave helpful criticism because I think Hydroid has the ability to be a great and fun frame to play.