Suggestion; just make a try hard planet?

[(PSN)psycofang]

I hate using that term but thats what came to mind first. The topic of end game pops up often and i feel theres no soil bed for the devs at DE to craft a cohesive/experimental end game. 

The star chart can only be fiddled with so much before it interferes with lower mr players and the higher mrs complaint of not being challenged constantly crops up.

So my suggestion...create a planet...some i dont know a distortion of the void? Just a giant ball of wtf and make not only high level nodes but difficult experimental content retune and greenlight it.

Unbalanced enemy types, whatever thoughts or ideas that may have seened "too much" for the star chart put it in this new node.

Just call this distortion/box/planet That Thing Over There until you find a witty lore friendly name for it.

Rather than try to nerf everything into balance which requires massive player/tool/enemy/tool overhauls 

Keep throwing unbalanced monster after nonsense monster until something sticks then tune it. You dont even need unique models for these enemies until its green lit. 

Toss your most broken ideas at these players and reward them with very well crafted unique cosmetics and maybe a sentinel or so or weird mods. 

Gate entry behind needing to complete 10 arbitrations to buy a key to get there? 

 

My take on another way to challenge players.

Edited May 13, 2019 by (PS4)psycofang

[DerGreif2]

You mean a true endgame? Yes. But we will never get it because it all has to be also doable for newer players for some reason...

[AshenHaze]

I'm 90% certain that will be Tau here in a few years.

[Jiminez_Burial]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Unbalanced enemy types

Keep throwing unbalanced monster after nonsense monster until something sticks.

I don't think you understand what people want.  We don't want unfair BS, we just want mechanics and enemy types that are actually difficult (not unbalanced).  If there's only unbalanced BS on this planet then no-one will play it except the completionists for the cosmetics, though they'll hate it all the while.  We are sick of how easy the game is, not that we haven't broken x number of keyboards/monitors.

[Ceejay]

I just wanna game with people and use two brain cells instead of one

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

5 hours ago, DerGreif2 said:

You mean a true endgame? Yes. But we will never get it because it all has to be also doable for newer players for some reason...

I'm not a hardcore player even if every once in a while I do enjoy hard content. In small doses. But unfortunately this ^ is true. There's always, every time, a need to let the newer player enjoy every single piece of content right off the bat.

New elite game mode (ESO)? Make a softer version. New elite game mode with no softer version (Arbitrations)? Well, make it easier then (now revives are a thing). Besides, either we cheese it, or if somehow we are unable to, and since we want rewards badly, we'll cry to DE and raise a stink for them to tone down the difficulty. Because every player must play absolutely everything and get every single reward, somehow.

Edited May 9, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[(PSN)psycofang]

57 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

don't think you understand what people want.  We don't want unfair BS, we just want mechanics and enemy types that are actually difficult

And guess what? That requires they be overpowered to begin with and toned down until its green lit.

Thats what greenlit means, this us exactly what you want. 

The problem here is you just want the end result and not the steps to help create the end result. 

Thats very much why i said EXPERIMENTAL CONTENT. 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by (PS4)psycofang

[(PSN)nekokujo]

So kind of like a public test realm? I think it’s a worthy idea, but adding exclusive cosmetics or mods might be inviting complainers and naysayers who would want the content to be completable by everyone. In fact, if I wasn’t able to get my rewards because the content was broken, I’d be a little peeved. Rewards for something like this should be limited to stuff like glyphs, sigils, and a profile badge at most in my opinion. I’d definitely still play the content because the reward would be the actual gameplay.

I think sometimes players forget making ‘challenging’ content is messy and takes time. I’m sure other changes to arbitrations were floated. It’d be interesting to play them in a PTR type of setting before they get pushed to the rest of the game (and have to be stuck with it until they push their next iteration).

One thing to consider, however, is how the game is coded. It might be difficult to push patches that only affect the tryhard system and not the rest of the game. And of course, likely none of this would have a chance in Hek of happening on console.

[5H4DE]

8 hours ago, AshenHaze said:

I'm 90% certain that will be Tau here in a few years.

Dunno mate, Imo, if we're lucky we'll have Tau start at lv30 and ramp up to 60 as it's highest level planet.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

If DE does this the casuals will cry that it's unfair and they have been gated off from content. 

Then DE will nerf the S#&$ out of it until it's just a hollow shell of it's former self.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I'm not a hardcore player even if every once in a while I do enjoy hard content. In small doses. But unfortunately this ^ is true. There's always, every time, a need to let the newer player enjoy every single piece of content right off the bat.

I've noticed that new players almost never ask for this.  Most I talk to want some sort of challenge to build up to facing all the way up to the end of their progression.

Most complaints about this seem to be from people who do not want the game to take effort.  Example:  early complaints about higher end OV enemy damage.  While the starter quest was unbalanced and should be new player friendly, the rest did not warrant the outcry, and when I looked into why it seemed people were getting their *** whooped before going to complain.  Thank God DE listened to those of us who enjoyed it, and I sometimes run the T5 bounty for Axis.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I've noticed that new players almost never ask for this.  Most I talk to want some sort of challenge to build up to facing all the way up to the end of their progression.

Most complaints about this seem to be from people who do not want the game to take effort.  Example:  early complaints about higher end OV enemy damage.  While the starter quest was unbalanced and should be new player friendly, the rest did not warrant the outcry, and when I looked into why it seemed people were getting their *** whooped before going to complain.  Thank God DE listened to those of us who enjoyed it, and I sometimes run the T5 bounty for Axis.

Yes indeed. I think the same and have observed the same. Which is why I am more critical about the reason behind most requests, than other stuff. Because the way I see it, there's nothing more disgusting than someone claiming to be fighting for a just cause when in reality they are just using other people to get what they want. In this case in particular what most new players don't even ask for, apart from very few.

[Konork]

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I've noticed that new players almost never ask for this.  Most I talk to want some sort of challenge to build up to facing all the way up to the end of their progression.

Most complaints about this seem to be from people who do not want the game to take effort.  Example:  early complaints about higher end OV enemy damage.  While the starter quest was unbalanced and should be new player friendly, the rest did not warrant the outcry, and when I looked into why it seemed people were getting their *** whooped before going to complain.  Thank God DE listened to those of us who enjoyed it, and I sometimes run the T5 bounty for Axis.

Hey, I'm someone who didn't like the inflated stats on the Fortuna enemies and still don't like the elite variants. I also didn't mind things like Nullifiers or the Arbitration Drones when they were added. I prefer when games challenge me by making me rethink my strategies, and when all you're doing is making enemy numbers bigger, it makes it hard to tell if your strategy is flawed from the start, if it needs some refinement to work, if you need to execute it better, or if you just need bigger numbers yourself to keep up.

[Hmm...interesting.]

How about we just acknowledge that warframes and weapons are way too overpowered and need to be nerfed. Then the star chart becomes more difficult as a result of nerfing things a bit. 

[SECURATYYY]

This has my vote. Give me what you think the hardest stuff is in this game and let me at it. No rules.

 

Level 200 enemies? You bet cha. BS mission modifiers? Meh, but lets go. Come at me [DE].

[ShortCat]

On 2019-05-09 at 8:02 AM, (PS4)psycofang said:

Just a giant ball of wtf and make not only high level nodes but diffucult experimental content. 

So you want a lvl slider as one option? The day Warframe community understands that number bloat is not the way to, we will be just one step away from that "end game" people talk about.

On 2019-05-09 at 8:02 AM, (PS4)psycofang said:

Unbalanced enemy types, whatever thoughts or ideas that may have seened "too much" for the star chart put it in this new node.

Unbalanced enemies would mean:

• ability immune, so that we cannot CC them and turn off their AI or kill with overpowered abilities too fast
• invulnerability phases?
• bloated HP/Armor/Shield values or just meat bags
• Immunity to status effects, so that we cannot reduce enemies defenses
• damage reduction, so that powerfull weapons in combination to buff frames cannot kill them
• 1 Hit-KO-Damage

You basically want a node where players fight a stream of Wolfs?

On 2019-05-09 at 8:02 AM, (PS4)psycofang said:

Rather than try to nerf everything into balance which requires massive player/tool/enemy/tool overhauls 

Keep throwing unbalanced monster after nonsense monster until something sticks. You dont even need unique models for these enemies until its green lit. 

Nerfing is the only way to go, because we power creeped to the point that new foes simply turn off our arsenal one by one: excessive ability spam led to dispell units (Nullifier/Scombas) or ability immunity (any boss/Dolons etc), excessive weapon damage led to higher base stats on enemies (Kuva Grineer/4tuna Corpus) or just damage reduction (Nox/Sentients/upcomming Amalagams), too much utility on weapons led to status immunity. Wolf peacks this evolution so far and combines all of the above. We even had a glimpse of the next stage - enemies only killable by certain actions, like recently mentioned finisher sensitive enemies or Orb Mother.

And then uneducated masses cry that nerfs make their gear useless. How ironic.

Edited May 10, 2019 by ShortCat

[Steel_Rook]

On 2019-05-09 at 9:03 AM, DerGreif2 said:

You mean a true endgame? Yes. But we will never get it because it all has to be also doable for newer players for some reason...

Well, that reason is fairly obvious - despite what the forums will have you believe, long-term veterans with massively overpowered end-game gear are not a majority of the population. This is always a problem with MMOs. Designing hardcore end-game content costs as much as designing any content while appealing to a progressively diminishing fraction of the playerbase the higher you go. At the same time, it's targeting people who increasingly already have everything and are thus less likely to pay for recurring monetisation.

 

6 hours ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

How about we just acknowledge that warframes and weapons are way too overpowered and need to be nerfed. Then the star chart becomes more difficult as a result of nerfing things a bit. 

Not necessarily. I maintain that the modding system is at fault, not weapons themselves. Damage stacks FAR too aggressively for any kind of proper balance to occur, resulting in enemy damage resistances topping 95%, whereupon any kind of scaling or level balancing becomes essentially impossible as the entire system devolves into a binary state. Do you have Slash/Corrosive? If so, pass. If not, go back to start. As long as a weapon can achieve *100-*300 damage from mods, no amount of weapon rebalancing is going to fix it.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Actually that would be a great game and I am leaning towards this idea or guess that Death Stranding is a lot like this...You have a Point A and there's a Point B all the way across a massive map..and in-between them is impossible enemy units you have to survive against...

 

I would love to see a Infested Open Map that is basically Stephen King's MIST with monsters so powerful that fighting them isn't even an option but surviving to reach a safe haven is...

[Hmm...interesting.]

8 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Not necessarily. I maintain that the modding system is at fault, not weapons themselves. Damage stacks FAR too aggressively for any kind of proper balance to occur, resulting in enemy damage resistances topping 95%, whereupon any kind of scaling or level balancing becomes essentially impossible as the entire system devolves into a binary state. Do you have Slash/Corrosive? If so, pass. If not, go back to start. As long as a weapon can achieve *100-*300 damage from mods, no amount of weapon rebalancing is going to fix it.

I created this post a good while ago 

 

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

If it's not Tau, we riot

[(PSN)psycofang]

15 hours ago, ShortCat said:

So you want a lvl slider as one option? 

Of course. Any and all to use on the player base. Any and all to create unique content, tune, balance towards high power gear, tune balance towards situational awareness. 

 

15 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Unbalanced enemies would mean:

No youve only half the understanding of unbalanced.  Unbalanced can be too weak, too strong, requires too much percision, too fast , too tanky.

 

The wolf is only 1 of these aspects and shares no interesting aspect due to the very narrow way it was created

 They are nerfing it due to feedback- youre already part of the experiment may as well go full on with the ideas they were afraid to use

And youre not forced into it, you send yourself there.

 

You can lower these parameters to make them strong withour being too much.

 

Thats why i said GREENLIT and releaee it. 

 

Its an experiment you wont ger it right on the first try.

 

15 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Nerfing is the only way to go, because we power creeped to the point that new foes simply turn off our arsenal one by one: 

I disagree that's why i said overpowered enemies then nerf towards the upper level. 

 

Example: the amalgum spider seen on stream in this Tryhard planet itd have started out very fast, very strong, hits rapidly , very agressive ,need its weakpoints popped to kill and very tanky.

 

If this is too much then we nerf it from.there. obviously its very fast snd requires percision shots so tankiness and high damage is the metric we will lower so its also very agressive.

 

Allow cc to work but nerf cc effectiveness on it by 80% and slowly build immunity

Let damage skills work but then must be targeted and hit its weakpoints

 

Examples like those of releasing, tuning until upper level balanced then release after enough players kill it at an acceptable level. 

You want an enemy to fear while you hold your rivened rubico prime you need to allow unbalanced ideas to come too play then lower the parameters as needed.

Edited May 11, 2019 by (PS4)psycofang

[Guest]

I mean, look at what happened with Orb Vallis...

Which used to be a CC fest by the enemies so you just die (granted I don't die but the number of people I picked up in the first week was pretty high)

Edited May 11, 2019 by Guest

[(PSN)psycofang]

3 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

I mean, look at what happened with Orb Vallis...

Which used to be a CC fest by the enemies so you just die (granted I don't die but the number of people I picked up in the first week was pretty high)

Their mistake was releasing it on the public first, the Plains were the same and we nerfed as well. 

 

So create a box and let players check themselves into it. Use all your ideas, any strange mission type that seemed "too much"

 

Extermination with no floor only using wall clings with high damage lasers? 

Put it there

 

Super giant , damage sponge with unique mechanics? 

Put it there

Unique enemy type with a wall piecing rail rifle? 

Put it there

The ghouls were a good and unique enemy

Make a playground to take it further.

[SECURATYYY]

Punishing playground! Seriously though, throw any and all ideas in there and see what happens.

 

Internal testing is one thing, but a million monkeys with controllers is something else.

[(XBOX)scrobledublezip]

As the admitted beginner in this discussion I see a lot of the talk swaying back and forth between older and newer players needs. This seems like a reasonable way to try and find that balance of endgame material for advanced play but I can't see it functioning easily within warframe because of all the points made above about making things accessible to new players. I see a lot of newer players getting very vocal about all the things they CAN'T have for free and can't get to easily and DE seems to listen because they are the potential future veterans of the game and they are more numerous and NOISY! 

From a financial standpoint this seems to make some sense and it's hard to ignore financial incentives especially when you still have big plans for the game and need the finances to get there. 

I think if this were modified to be a separate downloadable sandbox with all frames and mods available that was invite only it would be fantastic. Every level you played there was a mandatory feedback box to fill in and more direct contact with devs. Perhaps something for partners and 1000 day plus veterans. This could be a legitimate development tool to improve the game with pre-emptive feedback rather than reactive. 

An interesting thought experiment either way, I'd certainly enjoy watching videos of professionals dealing with that level of content even if I can't handle it myself.