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Regiaz20

It`s the Endgame of Warframe to create new threads about the endgame?

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28 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

3500 hours is more than enough progression, don't you think? I went through the phase of being weak, now I'm strong, and I have every right to enjoy it without some schmup who shouldn't survive a fingerpoke survive 3 opticor clips to the face.

As or youtubers and streamers, they can go play other game is they don't like it. It's not like most of them will return if their complaints are met anyway. They join in, complain a bit, then go play the hot new thing, and leave us to deal with the damage they've created. Those guys are more incompetent than the people on this forum. They come in, expecting Warframe to be Game X, and when they realize that Warframe is Warframe, and not Game X, they complain that it ain't Game X. And DE, in all their incompetent wisdom, appeases them, which is why Warframe is this chimera of broken content and half-assed ideas. Cause DE tries to appease every single schmuck with 10k+ viewers who makes a video, instead of sticking to their guns and creative vision.

You sound very upset for some reason and refuce to aknowledge that there could be balance between power fantacy and good challenging and rewarding endgame.

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26 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

3500 hours is more than enough progression, don't you think? I went through the phase of being weak, now I'm strong, and I have every right to enjoy it without some schmup who shouldn't survive a fingerpoke survive 3 opticor clips to the face.

As or youtubers and streamers, they can go play other game is they don't like it. It's not like most of them will return if their complaints are met anyway. They join in, complain a bit, then go play the hot new thing, and leave us to deal with the damage they've created. Those guys are more incompetent than the people on this forum. They come in, expecting Warframe to be Game X, and when they realize that Warframe is Warframe, and not Game X, they complain that it ain't Game X. And DE, in all their incompetent wisdom, appeases them, which is why Warframe is this chimera of broken content and half-assed ideas. Cause DE tries to appease every single schmuck with 10k+ viewers who makes a video, instead of sticking to their guns and creative vision.

I hate to break it to you, but their creative vision doesn't seem to be what you think it is. The proof-of-concept trailer has the player character mostly running away from enemies or sneaking around, only taking on groups of one or two in a straight fight. Considering elements like the Stalker, the Sentients and Railjack's tactical components (Railjack having explicitly been said more than once to be a culmination of DE's creative vision for Warframe), it would not surprise me if it turned out that challenge and tactical components are a major part of DE's vision for the game.

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6 minutes ago, Highresist said:

You sound very upset for some reason and refuce to aknowledge that there could be balance between power fantacy and good challenging and rewarding endgame.

No it can't. It's called a power fantasy. If there's any challenge, then you don't have enough power.

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6 minutes ago, Highresist said:

You sound very upset for some reason and refuce to aknowledge that there could be balance between power fantacy and good challenging and rewarding endgame.

Personally, I believe the best power fantasy is beating a good challenge. I feel way more badass beating Vergil or even an Eidolon Solo than I do Lephantis or any number of weak mooks.

Where's the power in beating something that can't fight back?

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hace 6 minutos, (PS4)Viveeeh dijo:

Guys, what happened to this thread? A few hours ago it was funny.

this thread just adapt to the endgame 

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12 minutes ago, Regiaz20 said:

this thread just adapt to the endgame 

Indeed, it was inevitable.

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vor 48 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

No it can't. It's called a power fantasy. If there's any challenge, then you don't have enough power.

What nonsense is this....

If there is no challenge at all, i dont feel powerful (= power fantasy fails).

 

And now let me underline a word to prove my point 😁

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Just now, DreisterDino said:

What nonsense is this....

If there is no challenge at all, i dont feel powerful (= power fantasy fails).

 

And now let me underline a word to prove my point 😁

You don't. That's your issue, not mine. Learn what real power feels like, will ya? Some people like getting the sh*t beat out of them and barely escaping with their lives, while other like dishing that punishment. Guess where you stand and guess where I stand?

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5 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

You don't. That's your issue, not mine. Learn what real power feels like, will ya? Some people like getting the sh*t beat out of them and barely escaping with their lives, while other like dishing that punishment. Guess where you stand and guess where I stand?

 

6 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Learn what real power feels like, will ya?

I love how you're arguing subjectivity whilst also claiming to have the understanding of 'real power'.

Besides, those two are far from mutually exclusive. Devil May Cry's objective is to beat the S*** out of everything in as cool and as effective a fashion you can and gives you the tools to, but if you can't, if you're not powerful enough and skilled enough to do so, expect to get your a** handed right back to you.

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

 

I love how you're arguing subjectivity whilst also claiming to have the understanding of 'real power'.

Besides, those two are far from mutually exclusive. Devil May Cry's objective is to beat the S*** out of everything in as cool and as effective a fashion you can and gives you the tools to, but if you can't, if you're not powerful enough and skilled enough to do so, expect to get your a** handed right back to you.

As  far as you know, I could be anything from a bum in the middle of nowhere to Vladimir Putin. You have no way of knowing, so how would you know if I know what "real power" feels like? You just assume, and I'd rather you didn't, since assuming makes and ass of you and me.

As for DMC... last I checked, it wasn't a power fantasy. Also, yeah, you're right, if one's not powerful and skill enough, they'll get beaten. Which is EXACTLY why I oppose this claim for higher level enemies. Corpuses can't touch me, Grineer can't touch me, Infested can't touch me, Sentinels can't touch me, and it should stay that way. I don't wanna see a charger suddenly tank my Opticor or a crewman parry my Cassowar, because it makes no freakin' sense, since I was melting them before just by looking their way. Imagine the goons in DMC that you beat with extreme ease suddenly handing it to you for no reason other than "steam forums complained".

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

I just found my future response to every thread about endgame 😛

I'm going to Tweet this to Reb and Steve first chance I get (where it will make sense, obviously). 

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49 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

What nonsense is this....

If there is no challenge at all, i dont feel powerful (= power fantasy fails).

 

And now let me underline a word to prove my point 😁

Kind of agree with this.

Waframe may be a power fantasy game, but as far as I'm concerned, if there's no challenge, there's no fun (as far as combat is concerned).

I'm also quite happy chilling out, mining and fishing, or just enjoying the scenery sometimes, or changing the look of my gear.

 

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People be like "I spent 4k hours playing Warframe" When 99% of that was redoing the SAME. MISSIONS. Over and over and over

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13 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

As  far as you know, I could be anything from a bum in the middle of nowhere to Vladimir Putin. You have no way of knowing, so how would you know if I know what "real power" feels like? You just assume, and I'd rather you didn't, since assuming makes and ass of you and me.

Because you literally argued subjectivity in the rest of your point. You basically claimed that everyone is allowed their own opinion as to what a power fantasy is, but only you are right.

14 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

As for DMC... last I checked, it wasn't a power fantasy. Also, yeah, you're right, if one's not powerful and skill enough, they'll get beaten. Which is EXACTLY why I oppose this claim for higher level enemies.

If one's not powerful enough in Warframe, you get beaten. If one's not powerful enough in Dynasty Warriors, you get beaten. If ones not powerful enough in Kirby you get beaten. If the level of power and skill you start off at is the factor for a game to be a power fantasy, then I'm afraid that Warframe isn't either. You don't exactly start as a god, by your own admission. The only difference between DMC and Warframe is how hard you have to work for that power.

And in DMC, it spends a good 75% of the game's narrative glorifying how powerful the player characters (and by proxy, the player) is. You literally beat the s*** out of what is effectively Satan or a Satan wannabe in four out of the five games, with the only exception being the prequel game, where you beat up a guy who's primary character trait is 'get more power'. If that isn't a power fantasy by your definition, then honestly, I don't know what is.

It's a power fantasy because it makes you, the player, feel powerful by having you experience how powerful all the enemies you have to face are, so that when you make absolute fools of them you know you are more powerful then these extremely powerful enemies. Warframe makes you feel powerful by beating up helpless enemies that aren't actually a threat outside of raw numbers.

To represent this in a less abstract way, lets examine the same principle in a different medium. Both feature the same character in the same TV show. Which one makes the character seem more powerful?

Spoiler

 

 

43 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

. Corpuses can't touch me, Grineer can't touch me, Infested can't touch me, Sentinels can't touch me, and it should stay that way. I don't wanna see a charger suddenly tank my Opticor or a crewman parry my Cassowar, because it makes no freakin' sense, since I was melting them before just by looking their way. Imagine the goons in DMC that you beat with extreme ease suddenly handing it to you for no reason other than "steam forums complained".

I have in the past actively chosen to have the goons start being able to hand it to me because it makes me more powerful by comparison. I was actually a bit disappointed in 5 with the default difficulty as it was a bit too easy for my liking (except that glorious final boss), but it soon came back up to standard on future playthroughs.

Besides, you're conflating challenge and difficulty. Difficulty is how mechanically difficult it is to do something - how many bullets it takes to kill an enemy and how much margin for error you have. Challenge is a test of skill. Enemies being able to resist abilities based on their design and the ability in question, for example, shield lancers being able to tank and draw aggro from peacemaker, would increase challenge. This is because it would implement scenarios where the normal solution of kill everything with peacemaker wouldn't work, testing your ability to skill to switch tactics on the fly based on the situation. Which isn't to say it needs to be very difficult - you could continue to have a wide margin for error, and the problematic situation could still be easily resolvable, but it would be more challenging than now where such a situation almost never occurs once you have a strong enough nuke.

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14 minutes ago, Medeucea said:

People be like "I spent 4k hours playing Warframe" When 99% of that was redoing the SAME. MISSIONS. Over and over and over

Congratulations time traveler, you have just discovered games. Now please go back to 3101 BC and invent Senet, so that the timeline remains stable.

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Because you literally argued subjectivity in the rest of your point. You basically claimed that everyone is allowed their own opinion as to what a power fantasy is, but only you are right.

Right, because getting the s*it beat out of you is not a power fantasy, but dealing the damage is. What's so hard to grasp. In one scenario, you are a victim with no power, in the other you are the one with the power. There is no power fantasy in being a victim.

Quote

If one's not powerful enough in Warframe, you get beaten. If one's not powerful enough in Dynasty Warriors, you get beaten. If ones not powerful enough in Kirby you get beaten. If the level of power and skill you start off at is the factor for a game to be a power fantasy, then I'm afraid that Warframe isn't either. You don't exactly start as a god, by your own admission. The only difference between DMC and Warframe is how hard you have to work for that power.

And in DMC, it spends a good 75% of the game's narrative glorifying how powerful the player characters (and by proxy, the player) is. You literally beat the s*** out of what is effectively Satan or a Satan wannabe in four out of the five games, with the only exception being the prequel game, where you beat up a guy who's primary character trait is 'get more power'. If that isn't a power fantasy by your definition, then honestly, I don't know what is.

It's a power fantasy because it makes you, the player, feel powerful by having you experience how powerful all the enemies you have to face are, so that when you make absolute fools of them you know you are more powerful then these extremely powerful enemies. Warframe makes you feel powerful by beating up helpless enemies that aren't actually a threat outside of raw numbers.

To represent this in a less abstract way, lets examine the same principle in a different medium. Both feature the same character in the same TV show. Which one makes the character seem more powerful?

No, to me a power fantasy is how big the gap in power is. In DMC, regardless of how powerful and good you get, how many skills you have, the enemies will still pose a threat, because, as you said, they're Satan and whatever. That means you're just barely powerful, and that, to me, is not a power fantasy. A power fantasy to me is when there is such a gap between you and the most serious threat you can have that threat is trivial. That's power fantasy. That's having power. Nothing stands in your way. Warframe allows me that power fantasy, and that's what I'm craving. Barely scraping through doesn't seem like a fantasy. Seems like there's more work to be done, and in games like DMC, there's a cap of how much that work is, and therefore no threat will be trivial, even at your maxed out power. DMC just sounds like a fair competition, not one where one is clearly better than the other. You may call that balanced, and it is, but that's what makes it not be a power fantasy. There is no power. When everyone is special, no one is.

Quote

I have in the past actively chosen to have the goons start being able to hand it to me because it makes me more powerful by comparison. I was actually a bit disappointed in 5 with the default difficulty as it was a bit too easy for my liking (except that glorious final boss), but it soon came back up to standard on future playthroughs.

Besides, you're conflating challenge and difficulty. Difficulty is how mechanically difficult it is to do something - how many bullets it takes to kill an enemy and how much margin for error you have. Challenge is a test of skill. Enemies being able to resist abilities based on their design and the ability in question, for example, shield lancers being able to tank and draw aggro from peacemaker, would increase challenge. This is because it would implement scenarios where the normal solution of kill everything with peacemaker wouldn't work, testing your ability to skill to switch tactics on the fly based on the situation. Which isn't to say it needs to be very difficult - you could continue to have a wide margin for error, and the problematic situation could still be easily resolvable, but it would be more challenging than now where such a situation almost never occurs once you have a strong enough nuke.

Yeah, that nuke is what makes Warframe be a power fantasy and DMC not. All hail the nukes, I say.

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23 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

No, to me a power fantasy is how big the gap in power is. In DMC, regardless of how powerful and good you get, how many skills you have, the enemies will still pose a threat, because, as you said, they're Satan and whatever. That means you're just barely powerful, and that, to me, is not a power fantasy. A power fantasy to me is when there is such a gap between you and the most serious threat you can have that threat is trivial. That's power fantasy. That's having power. Nothing stands in your way. Warframe allows me that power fantasy, and that's what I'm craving. Barely scraping through doesn't seem like a fantasy. Seems like there's more work to be done, and in games like DMC, there's a cap of how much that work is, and therefore no threat will be trivial, even at your maxed out power. DMC just sounds like a fair competition, not one where one is clearly better than the other. You may call that balanced, and it is, but that's what makes it not be a power fantasy. There is no power. When everyone is special, no one is.

No, the whole 'when everyone is special, no one is' is Warframe's approach. Literally anyone can achieve what you can if they have the build you do. You are not special. You are not skilled. You have power given to you. Not just anyone can do the stuff Donguri does in DMC. Which, yes, his level above DMC is just as high as yours is above Warframe.

Your definition of power fantasy is flawed anyway. It is, in effect, that power fantasy is when the protagonist is untouchable by being so far above everyone and that if that supremacy is challenged even slightly, it ceases to be power fantasy. Yet even going back to the earliest great works demonstrates that this is either not power fantasy, or just flat-out not good design. Everyone from Sun Wukong to Gilgamesh, from Beowulf to Achilles, all of them are defined by two things: being immensely powerful above almost anything else in existence, and that they are not all-powerful - that they are challenged and fail. I dare you to suggest that works that feature characters that beat the s*** out of heaven with ease, shout down whole armies unarmed and directly challenge - and succeed in defying - the will of the gods themselves are not power fantasies. Especially when we can literally identify the origin of power fantasy tropes in these very texts. Power of Friendship? Check. Beats up gods and demons without a sweat? Check. Defeats an army without even touching them? Already mentioned, and absolutely check.

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6 hours ago, Ver1dian said:

The true endgame is coming to the forums after 4k hours to complain about how broken to an unplayable level the game is.

I'm completely astounded over how many people will play this game for a bazillion hours over a period of, literally years in a lot of cases, and then be as negative about it as they are.

Honestly I'd like to go around every single whiny, entitled complaint thread and gently remind OP that nobody is holding a gun to their head and making them play this game. But I'm not sure the mods would appreciate that.

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6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No, the whole 'when everyone is special, no one is' is Warframe's approach. Literally anyone can achieve what you can if they have the build you do. You are not special. You are not skilled. You have power given to you. Not just anyone can do the stuff Donguri does in DMC. Which, yes, his level above DMC is just as high as yours is above Warframe.

Your definition of power fantasy is flawed anyway. It is, in effect, that power fantasy is when the protagonist is untouchable by being so far above everyone and that if that supremacy is challenged even slightly, it ceases to be power fantasy. Yet even going back to the earliest great works demonstrates that this is either not power fantasy, or just flat-out not good design. Everyone from Sun Wukong to Gilgamesh, from Beowulf to Achilles, all of them are defined by two things: being immensely powerful above almost anything else in existence, and that they are not all-powerful - that they are challenged and fail. I dare you to suggest that works that feature characters that beat the s*** out of heaven with ease, shout down whole armies unarmed and directly challenge - and succeed in defying - the will of the gods themselves are not power fantasies. Especially when we can literally identify the origin of power fantasy tropes in these very texts. Power of Friendship? Check. Beats up gods and demons without a sweat? Check. Defeats an army without even touching them? Already mentioned, and absolutely check.

Nope, the enemies can't. If enemies are superpowered, and you are superpowered, then no one is superpowered, cause that's the normal level of power. But with enemies being punching bags and with us being gods, then we are special and they are canon fodder. Hence, power fantasy.

And sorry, I'm not well versed in literature or media, so I can't help you on that one. Still, there's a first time for everything.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I'm completely astounded over how many people will play this game for a bazillion hours over a period of, literally years in a lot of cases, and then be as negative about it as they are.

Honestly I'd like to go around every single whiny, entitled complaint thread and gently remind OP that nobody is holding a gun to their head and making them play this game. But I'm not sure the mods would appreciate that.

Yeah - meta-complaining is not allowed. Mods lock those kind of threads. :wink:

Still, it is hilarious.

I mean, they've played the game for years / 1,000s of hours and know exactly what kind of game Warframe is. They've watched the game grow over the years and know DE have not planned any kind of super-challenging endgame content, where they can show off how cheesy their gear is awesomely skilful they are. Yet even years later, they still expect the devs to miraculously produce this content...which, by the way, nobody can seem to agree on what it should be (several failed attempts later)...

And they continue to fill the forum with complaint / endgame threads, despite DE talking about difficulty scaling in the last two dev streams. They recognise this is an issue and they have said they don't want the game to become a "1-button ability spam" for veterans....BUT they have also said this is easier said than done and asked the community to be patient while they figure out a solution.

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Just now, Gabbynaru said:

Nope, the enemies can't. If enemies are superpowered, and you are superpowered, then no one is superpowered, cause that's the normal level of power. But with enemies being punching backs and with us being gods, then we are special and they are canon fodder. Hence, power fantasy.

As I pointed out A: you can surpass that normal in DMC and any skill-based game, and B: that's not a good definition of power fantasy because almost nothing actually fits that bill, not even the designers intent for Warframe. My definition is this:

A power fantasy is where the protagonist/s, particularly when they serve as a reader expy, role model or avatar, are significantly more competent and/or influential than the individual consuming the relevant media, intended to vicariously empower the consumer in some fashion.

For example: when reading Dragon Ball, the reader is somewhat intended to root for, empathise with and look up to Goku, and he is also left as somewhat of a blank slate character for the reader to slip elements of themselves into for a bit of reader expy too - this is partly why all the villains have more defined personality and why watchers tend to have a bad reaction when Goku does something that they absolutely would not do (there was a controversy a while back when he stupidly instigated a potential universe-ending threat for fun). Conversely Silent Hill 2, despite featuring a player avatar in the form James Sunderland, he is not significantly more competent than the player is and is very vulnerable to the variety of monsters he encounters and the player is encouraged to avoid or hide from them rather than fighting where possible. Thus, despite involving the player killing monsters, Silent Hill delivers on the Horror fantasy of disempowerment and fear.

1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

And sorry, I'm not well versed in literature or media, so I can't help you on that one. Still, there's a first time for everything.

I would recommend at least getting familiar with them via summaries at least. If nothing else, it's fascinating to see the origins of some of todays tropes and media.

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5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As I pointed out A: you can surpass that normal in DMC and any skill-based game, and B: that's not a good definition of power fantasy because almost nothing actually fits that bill, not even the designers intent for Warframe. My definition is this:

A power fantasy is where the protagonist/s, particularly when they serve as a reader expy, role model or avatar, are significantly more competent and/or influential than the individual consuming the relevant media, intended to vicariously empower the consumer in some fashion.

For example: when reading Dragon Ball, the reader is somewhat intended to root for, empathise with and look up to Goku, and he is also left as somewhat of a blank slate character for the reader to slip elements of themselves into for a bit of reader expy too - this is partly why all the villains have more defined personality and why watchers tend to have a bad reaction when Goku does something that they absolutely would not do (there was a controversy a while back when he stupidly instigated a potential universe-ending threat for fun). Conversely Silent Hill 2, despite featuring a player avatar in the form James Sunderland, he is not significantly more competent than the player is and is very vulnerable to the variety of monsters he encounters and the player is encouraged to avoid or hide from them rather than fighting where possible. Thus, despite involving the player killing monsters, Silent Hill delivers on the Horror fantasy of disempowerment and fear.

I would recommend at least getting familiar with them via summaries at least. If nothing else, it's fascinating to see the origins of some of todays tropes and media.

I guess we can keep going back and forth on this one, but, at the end of the day, you see power fantasy one way, I see it another way (which Warframe currently provides in spades). You want the game to be one way, I want it another, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, cause I ain't changing my views and desires when it comes to Warframe, and I doubt you will either. So guess we'll just have to hope for the best, and if the future goes your way, fine, if it goes my way, just as fine, and regardless of whose way it goes, there's always more games to play and more issues to discuss.

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Endgame is building your weapons and 'frames up to incredible power levels and then complaining that nothing challenges you.

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