Start to phase out RNG.

[Hmm...interesting.]

I think that mission rewards should be redesigned to be achievement based. If you complete the mission to a certain standard, you get a reward. If you don't complete the mission to that standard, you get a point on a reward meter. If you get enough points in the meter for a reward, you get the reward, despite not having completed the mission to the standard that would initially earn you the reward. This way, you can obtain a reward by either putting in the time to farm, or putting in the skill.

Additionally, we could assume that there are multiple reward tiers based on difficulty (which there should be of course). Let's assume that there are 5 reward tiers (and that there is a single reward for each tier, ranked 1-star reward through 5-star reward) and the 5-star reward requires 100 points. 

Complete mission at 1-star level, I get 1-star reward and I get 1 point toward my 5-star reward (as well as 1 point toward my 2-star, 3-star, and 4-star rewards)

Complete at 2-star level, I get 2-star reward and 5 points toward my 3, 4, and 5-star rewards.

Complete at 3-star level, I get 3-star reward and 15 points toward my 4 and 5-star rewards.

Complete at 4-star level, I get 4-star reward and 35 points toward my 5-star reward.

Complete at 5-star level, I get 5-star reward.

These numbers are of course just brainstormed numbers, and of course there would be a different amount of achievement levels depending on difficulty and other stuff.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Yeah, but rng has way more potential to keep you playing for longer. Not saying I agree, just saying why rng is better, business-wise. 

[Hmm...interesting.]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Yeah, but rng has way more potential to keep you playing for longer. Not saying I agree, just saying why rng is better, business-wise. 

I disagree. With a change like this, they can also add a star rating for each mission that you do that shows what level you've gotten up to. That will drive some players to get to complete the levels more thoroughly (rather than just playing it once) but it could also be a great opportunity for DE to add interesting rewards to many of the levels. For example, they could add weapon blueprints to some of the lower levels, exposing newer players to weapons that they might not otherwise see, and it could give them more stuff to do in the beginning of the game.

[Chewarette]

They don't want to incentivize people to do longer/harder missions, as people playing this game hate playing this game.

That's why 300 20-minute runs will always give you the exact same rewards as one 100-hour mission. Arbitrations are the exception to that rule, and you can clearly see that barely anyone goes beyond the C Rotation. Not because they can't, but because they don't want to.

Sorties were butchered out because of this exact reason.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Chewarette

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Yeah, but rng has way more potential to keep you playing for longer. Not saying I agree, just saying why rng is better, business-wise. 

You mean make you spend more on plat?

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

You mean make you spend more on plat?

That too. Randomness can be highly good for a few lucky, but quite bad for most people. RNG keeps players either trying and playing the game for longer, or tells them "you may buy it if you don't want rng", or even have someone go trough the ordeal of heavy farm, not get lucky, and still buying the item they were trying to farm.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

That too. Randomness can be highly good for a few lucky, but quite bad for most people. RNG keeps players either trying and playing the game for longer, or tells them "you may buy it if you don't want rng", or even have someone go trough the ordeal of heavy farm, not get lucky, and still buying the item they were trying to farm.

Using frustration (ridiculously low chance and  heavily diluted drop tables) as a means to incentivize players to spend will hurt DE in the long run. I am fine with the RNG system, as long as the odds are reasonable (looking at you blazing step ephemera). But at least offer an alternative way to get it guaranteed, if I have to do 1000 8 zones run for a guaranteed drop of blazing step ephemera then so be it.

 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

49 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Using frustration (ridiculously low chance and  heavily diluted drop tables) as a means to incentivize players to spend will hurt DE in the long run. I am fine with the RNG system, as long as the odds are reasonable (looking at you blazing step ephemera). But at least offer an alternative way to get it guaranteed, if I have to do 1000 8 zones run for a guaranteed drop of blazing step ephemera then so be it.

 

But has anyone said it was a good or honest way? All I said was that it's how DE operates, no matter if I like it or not. And for that matter, yes, preying on frustration yields results more easily for them than just giving an item in exchange for completing a task.

And I'll just say it right off the bat, as someone who has been around for quite some time. DE is only as honest as their PR Image let's them be for most things. See how they are famous for removing the Kubrow slot machine, but only recently when there was evident talk about the mod packs they removed them. And see how the riven slot machine is still a thing, and it seems it'll stay for a lot more time.

Also, see the whole moderator issue, it took a huge uproar for them acknowledge it and do something about it. As !ong as no one complains DE will always look the other way on most stuff, and only fix it when it becomes too glaring and starts hurting their good image. I love DE, but I hate when they do that.

Edited May 10, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[Teridax68]

Just now, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

But has anyone said it was a good or honest way? All I said was that it's how DE operates, no matter if I like it or not. And for that matter, yes, preying on frustration yields results more easily for them than just giving an item in exchange for completing a task.

But as DrivaMain said, the problem with these incentive structures isn't simply that they're not particularly ethical, but that they are actually harmful to DE themselves too: when long-time players burn out from excessive, RNG-based grinding, or when prospective new players just nope all the way out of Warframe the moment they see how much grinding the game expects of them, that just makes for fewer customers, and thus less monetization. When players cut down on their play time simply to cool down from whichever RNG grindfest they just forced themselves through, that lessens their attachment, and if they're frustrated at DE that makes them all the less disposed to spend money to support the game. There's a reason why grindy, exploitative microtransaction-based games typically have a shelf life of about a couple of years before they collapse, and that's because in spite of their potential for tremendous short-term gains through players paying to escape the grind, the resulting structure leaves the highest-paying players with nothing to do, while discouraging the rest to commit. Thankfully, Warframe is a legitimately fun game, but I'd say its incentive structure is starting to do it more harm than good.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

But as DrivaMain said, the problem with these incentive structures isn't simply that they're not particularly ethical, but that they are actually harmful to DE themselves too: when long-time players burn out from excessive, RNG-based grinding, or when prospective new players just nope all the way out of Warframe the moment they see how much grinding the game expects of them, that just makes for fewer customers, and thus less monetization. When players cut down on their play time simply to cool down from whichever RNG grindfest they just forced themselves through, that lessens their attachment, and if they're frustrated at DE that makes them all the less disposed to spend money to support the game. There's a reason why grindy, exploitative microtransaction-based games typically have a shelf life of about a couple of years before they collapse, and that's because in spite of their potential for tremendous short-term gains through players paying to escape the grind, the resulting structure leaves the highest-paying players with nothing to do, while discouraging the rest to commit. Thankfully, Warframe is a legitimately fun game, but I'd say its incentive structure is starting to do it more harm than good.

No one said otherwise. In fact, bad luck you commented before I edited my comment (my bad). Because all I'm saying is that it's the way DE does stuff, not that it's the right thing to do.

I made an observation, not an opinion.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

No one said otherwise. In fact, bad luck you commented before I edited my comment (my bad). Because all I'm saying is that it's the way DE does stuff, not that it's the right thing to do.

I made an observation, not an opinion.

Sure, but from your very first response on this thread you did give the argument that RNG-based grinding incentivizes players to go on for longer, which as explained below said reply, isn't quite true, at least not in a video game over a long period of time, and to the extremes DE have been taking it. Thus, there is in fact an opinion behind your observation.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but from your very first response on this thread you did give the argument that RNG-based grinding incentivizes players to go on for longer, which as explained below said reply, isn't quite true, at least not in a video game over a long period of time, and to the extremes DE have been taking it. Thus, there is in fact an opinion behind your observation.

That is DE's apparent opinion, and not mine. I said it because it's how the game currently works. I believe all of my other posts, in this thread or others, clearly depict my stance on grind: "I don't mind it, and I'll ignore what I dislike, but I'm mostly a casual player and I hate to grind all the time". I'm even currently burned out from nightwave and barely playing warframe. So yes, observation and not opinion, despite the way I worded it.

As for opinion, then of course players won't stay around after grinding until they're burned out. But I thought that was way too obvious to even need to state.

Edited May 10, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

That is DE's apparent opinion, and not mine. I said it because it's how the game currently works. I believe all of my other posts, in this thread or others, clearly depict my stance on grind: "I don't mind it, and I'll ignore what I dislike, but I'm mostly a casual player and I hate to grind all the time". I'm even currently burned out from nightwave and barely playing warframe. So yes, observation and not opinion, despite the way I worded it.

As for opinion, then of course players won't stay around after grinding until they're burned out. But I thought that was way too obvious to even need to state.

Indeed, but as you are underlining here, something so apparently obvious to us is seemingly not so obvious to DE, as they have not only failed to address the grinding in the game, but in many respects have made it worse, the the Wolf of Saturn Six being a particularly egregious recent example. If your disagree with their opinion, playing devil's advocate alone won't really help, so much as arguing why that position is wrong.

[Steel_Rook]

In theory, random rewards help maintain a constant level of "engagement." By hiding the actual drop rates and presenting the situation as though you could get what you're after ON THE VERY NEXT TRY!!!, they obscure the actual intended cost of the item in terms of time, effort and resource cost. In short, they're gambling in everything but the real money cost. The whole point of random rewards is to maintain intended gating on average across the community while denying players an objective, deterministic indication of how much longer they have to go. As a player, you're intended to play roll-to-roll, rather than looking 10, 20, 100 rolls ahead and potentially being disincentivised actually knowing how much longer you have to go. In short, it's a skinner box. When the bell produces a reward randomly, the animal will ring it hundreds if not thousands of times after the reward is withdrawn before giving up.

That's in theory, anyway. In practice at least in my experience, the result is the exact opposite. Random rewards deny me any sense of progression whatsoever. Yes, every roll has the potential to give me the reward I want, this is true... But every roll which DOESN'T give me the reward I want was a waste of effort and brings me no closer to my goal. Were I earning currency even slowly, I would still feel some sense of progression, some sense that the goal I'm chasing is edging ever closer however slowly. With random rewards, bad RNG means I wasted my time and might as well have not even bothered. I remember when City of Heroes enabled the "Incarnate Shard" item to drop from level 50 enemies. I spent 8 hours playing the game and got not a single shard. At the end of that play session, I felt like I had wasted an entire day and accomplished nothing whatsoever. I could have been levelling up other characters, and instead I spun my wheels going nowhere.

In my opinion, deterministic rewards are always superior to random rewards. They're fairer on the player's psyche as they always keep us appraised of how well we're doing and how close we are to a payday. They also keep developers honest, as they can't hide deliberately low drop rates (say 0.1%) without players immediately realising just how much of a grind they've designed. There's a world of difference between being told that this randomly-spawning boss has a "low" chance to drop a bit of gear you want and that this same boss drops 1 resource item per defeat, that you need 100 of to get the item you want. They're both effectively the same number of fights, but the former "feels" deceptively a lot less grindy.

And mind you, it's not like the two systems can't coexist. As I've said many times before - Baro Ki'Teer is a great example of a deterministic reward system draped over a random one. Granted, his inventory is entirely separate from that of Void Relics, but it doesn't HAVE to be. Imagine an alternate Void Trader from whom you could buy a specific item for 10 times its sale cost in Ducates and a relic from which to draw it (so no drawing Vaulted items easily). That way, there's only so far bad RNG can push you before you'll have enough junk lying around to force the reward you want. There are ways to do this properly, and going with straight-up RNG rewards for everything is... Let's go with "lazy design."

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Indeed, but as you are underlining here, something so apparently obvious to us is seemingly not so obvious to DE, as they have not only failed to address the grinding in the game, but in many respects have made it worse, the the Wolf of Saturn Six being a particularly egregious recent example. If your disagree with their opinion, playing devil's advocate alone won't really help, so much as arguing why that position is wrong.

Not playing devil's advocate, or again, defending such practices. But one thing is clear: RNG-based reward system has been working for them until now. Since per DE Steve himself it's fine that players take breaks to return later. And that most players only take breaks when they're burned out and frustrated.

And from that standpoint, again from what I observe DE doing, rng does appear to warrant them more players for more time, by preying on dedication and frustration. Until they give up for a bit and return later, that is. Because most players will face these bad odds and still grind the hell out of the game, enabling DE to keep rng going. And a funny thing I've noticed DE does when we cry about droughts:

• Hema;
• PoE pigments;
• Rng ephemeras;
• Wolf of Saturn spawn and sledge drops chances;

Rng and heavy grind is their quick response for most stuff. Because it's the quick band-aid solution. Am I saying it's right? No, I'm say it's the easy way, with no reference to long term effects of such decisions.

Edited May 10, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Also, see the whole moderator issue, it took a huge uproar for them acknowledge it and do something about it. As !ong as no one complains DE will always look the other way on most stuff, and only fix it when it becomes too glaring and starts hurting their good image. I love DE, but I hate when they do that.

Well not many people uses and care about region chat (my clannies never opened the chat once..), so that’s understandable DE took a long time knowing this and that “ignoring” thing is normal in modern companies, just keep ignore it until it raises concerns. But at least DE takes action (see the mods banned I am not gonna mention their names due to public shaming), you know what they say “better late than never”.

[Sloan441]

7 hours ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

I disagree. 

You can disagree all you want, but he's right and it's not going to change. 

Rewards administered on a random timer create behavior extremely hard to extinguish. You should be able to figure the rest out. 

This sort of thing has been a staple in ARPG design since Diablo. It works and it's not going to change, especially when there's always another mission and the game is fairly easy. 

Now, if there were a system to mitigate this to some degree depending on, well, some other variable? There could be, but there doesn't have to be. DE might do such a thing, but this sort of random drop system has existed a very long time, particularly in this sort of game. It has a very well established track record of retention. It's not going away. 

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Not playing devil's advocate, or again, defending such practices. But one thing is clear: RNG-based reward system has been working for them until now. Since per DE Steve himself it's fine that players take breaks to return later. And that most players only take breaks when they're burned out and frustrated.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Rng and heavy grind is their quick response for most stuff. Because it's the quick band-aid solution. Am I saying it's right? No, I'm say it's the easy way, with no reference to long term effects of such decisions.

I mean, there is a contradiction here already, since on one hand, apparently DE is fine with players burning out, but on the other, there's an implicit acknowledgment that it doesn't quite work. Does DE want to lose players long-term, then? For sure, I agree it's easy to just stick a reward in some drop table or whatever, but going with DE's reasoning only goes so far: the point I'm making is that you're citing DE's opinions... then giving no opinion of your own, not even a rebuttal to DE's take in spite of how you seem to think they're wrong as well. Nobody here had questioned the fact that RNG rewards are easy to implement, the point being made since this thread's OP is that DE needs to stop taking the easy route, and worry more about the long-term consequences of its incentive systems.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 

I mean, there is a contradiction here already, since on one hand, apparently DE is fine with players burning out, but on the other, there's an implicit acknowledgment that it doesn't quite work. Does DE want to lose players long-term, then? For sure, I agree it's easy to just stick a reward in some drop table or whatever, but going with DE's reasoning only goes so far: the point I'm making is that you're citing DE's opinions... then giving no opinion of your own, not even a rebuttal to DE's take in spite of how you seem to think they're wrong as well. Nobody here had questioned the fact that RNG rewards are easy to implement, the point being made since this thread's OP is that DE needs to stop taking the easy route, and worry more about the long-term consequences of its incentive systems.

I don't see any contradiction. I just state on one statement that it is how they do it, and on other statement I say it's not the right decision. I'm not even sure what this semantics debate is supposed to do since I made my stance on this matter more than clear several times.

And sometimes it's not about my opinion, it's about reality. I can make statements without actually giving my opinion, because no one is entitled to it, and I can give my own opinions freely, because it's still my opinion and people just have to live with it no matter if they agree or not. Additionally my opinion can even change based on addition of new information, because I'm a strong believer that progress is more important than being right. And in the case of this post I never said merit-based rewards were bad, or even worse than the current rng-system. I merely pointed out that rng is how it works, it's what DE likes to do, no matter how good or bad it is on the long run, and that I seriously doubt they'll change it anytime soon. Save from the new mission rework they said they'd do, of course, since I want to believe it'll make the game less rng-dependant.

[Teridax68]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I don't see any contradiction. I just state on one statement that it is how they do it, and on other statement I say it's not the right decision. I'm not even sure what this semantics debate is supposed to do since I made my stance on this matter more than clear several times.

And sometimes it's not about my opinion, it's about reality. I can make statements without actually giving my opinion, because no one is entitled to it, and I can give my own opinions freely, because it's still my opinion and people just have to live with it no matter if they agree or not. Additionally my opinion can even change based on addition of new information, because I'm a strong believer that progress is more important than being right. And in the case of this post I never said merit-based rewards were bad, or even worse than the current rng-system. I merely pointed out that rng is how it works, it's what DE likes to do, no matter how good or bad it is on the long run, and that I seriously doubt they'll change it anytime soon. Save from the new mission rework they said they'd do, of course, since I want to believe it'll make the game less rng-dependant.

I'm not telling you what to do, I'm merely pointing out that you are simply stating platitudes and giving out arguments that are easily refutable, without making the effort to refute them yourself. We all know what DE's position is here, and restating it as if it were your own at best does not advance discussion, and at worst confuses people into thinking you are advocating said position, particularly as you made no effort to distance yourself from it until pushed to do so, particularly as you initially said it was "better business-wise" when this is being put into doubt. Considering how the OP is proposing an alternative, it very much comes across as you opposing a replacement to RNG grinding on principle, instead of discussing the subject matter at all.

[Birdframe_Prime]

One point before I begin:

5 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

In theory, random rewards help maintain a constant level of "engagement." By hiding the actual drop rates and presenting the situation as though you could get what you're after ON THE VERY NEXT TRY!!!, they obscure the actual intended cost of the item in terms of time, effort and resource cost. In short, they're gambling in everything but the real money cost.

DE publish their exact drop tables right here on the site. They're completely transparent about the RNG chances of getting one thing or another, if you'd like I can link them to you, or you can find them through the relevant thread on the Forums.

I've played an awful lot of games with loot RNG on them before now, and given up on them, because the results genuinely are like a slot machine. But here, at least, we know what the drop tables are, what the percentages are, and we can look up where to go to farm every single item in the game with at least a degree of reliability. The harshest grind in game is for the Rare mods that previously only dropped from one location in the game, from one enemy, and that enemy only has a 1-in-3 chance to even appear: The Aerial Commander from the Plains of Eidolon. With the drop chance of those mods being 0.5% on that enemy, the chance of that enemy even appearing on the mission being only 33.3%, this meant that you could only get any one of those Rare mods (such as Gladiator Vice or Swooping Falcon) from an Assassination Bounty with 0.165% chance. Now that the Thumpers have been released some of these mods also appear there, and Swooping Falcon is sometimes, if rarely, a Reward for the Bounty itself, bringing its drop chance up to around 8% at max.

RNG for Warframe is not blind, RNG is bad because DE has set the reward tables to be biased against us farming anything quickly. They want multiple runs and have seemingly set the drop chances on some rare things so low as to make them take hundreds of runs in order even remotely guarantee acquiring them.

But that brings me on to my actual point:

RNG for end-of-mission or end-of-wave rewards doesn't need to be phased out, the RNG just needs better management. Certainly better management than DE have been setting so far.

For example, every single veteran of the old Prime Part farming system of Void Keys can attest to how much easier the grind for Prime Parts has become from the new Relic system. It kind of sucks for us because before the change a single Key could grant all four squad members multiple rewards from the same mission, getting rewards for every Rotation in endless runs for the investment of one player's Key. Plus you could farm Keys in advance and have a hundred ready for the next Prime release.

But now it's more reliable to get the rewards because even though you are required to have one Relic per reward you get, you now get 4 rolls at that reward. Relic runs with a team are 4x more efficient for the same time investment.

So, imagine if we had the same system for end-of-mission and end-of-wave rewards? Instead of everyone getting the same drop from that table at once, each player got the drop and each player could choose to have a copy of another player's reward instead. 4x more rolls at the drop table.

That would be step 1. The 'Personal Drop Table'.

The next idea would be the idea of a bias if you already have an existing copy of one of the rewards in your inventory, so while this wouldn't apply to resources like Endo or Ayatan Sculptures (which are just a source of Endo you can keep), mods and blueprints that are already in your inventory would then have a lower chance to drop in the next instance of your mission or in the next rotation where they were likely to appear. Unique rewards, such as Ephemera, would then not drop at all from that table if you already have them, freeing up chances of you getting something more relevant instead.

In theory this could be then applied to runs like bosses, where if you have all of the Day Form Equinox parts in your inventory (even if they're built, they're parts, not the whole Warframe), you are overall half as likely to get those again and can then have a proportionally higher chance of getting Equinox Night Form parts. And this continues while you accrue those parts, and so while the chance for Tyl Regor dropping a Warframe Part is 100%, the chance of getting the final part you need out of the set is then approximately 50% of that drop table or more.

Apply this to bosses like the Exploiter, which have a 300% chance to drop Resources, a 100% chance to drop a Warframe part and a 6% chance to drop an extra item. This means that, for example, your chance of getting an Ephemera is actually about 6%, the chance of getting one of the two is only 3%. What if you had all three Hildryn parts though? And that dropped the chance of getting a Warframe part down to only 60% then the Resources and the Ephemera each gained the 20% chance so you had a shot at an extra Resource drop and a total of 26% chance at the Ephemera? And, if you then had both, the chance of that extra item went away and just left you with the better Resource drops and a lower chance at getting a Warframe part?

Apply this to Arbitrations where the Mods, Aura Forma and Ephemera are the more desired drops, but having all of the mods then halves their chance of getting them, bumping the chance of an Ephemera or Aura Forma up by the amount the others dropped, from the 1.5% at the start up to a 5% say.

That's step 2. The 'Scarcity Bias'.

And the last bit would be to ensure that repeat rolls are minimised too, helping out players who actually can and do play for longer in these missions.

While everyone only playing to rotation C of Arbitrations would have exactly the same chance at the rewards as each other, players that could play to the third or fourth rotation C would benefit from this anti-repeat function.

Getting Endo every wave, for example, is entirely possible right now because the chance at Endo rises to 52.5% on Rotation C, but what if (because basic resources are not being affected by the Scarcity Bias, only reward table specifics like mods and unique items) getting Endo once then lowered the chances of getting Endo again the next wave? And more if it popped up a second time?

The idea being that if the drop table contains repeats of resources like Endo or Ayatan Sculptures, getting them once biases the game against you getting them again and so you can play for longer and slowly tilt the reward pool towards getting the unique items. In Arbitrations in particular, where the rotation goes A/B/C/C/C etc. This would mean that you could potentially lower the chances of getting Endo or Ayatan sculptures enough that the Mods, Aura Forma and Ephemera go up to 10% drops or higher.

Step 3. The Repeat Drop Bias.

Combine all of these things, the Personal Drop Table letting you pick rewards from other players if your RNG was bad, the Scarcity Bias reducing the chance that you'll get the same mod or cosmetic out of that table, and the Repeat Drop bias further lowering the chances of getting what you already have...

Farming for rare things would still retain RNG, but allow a player to completely shift the drop tables as they played and as they played better. The more you have, the more you play to the higher levels, the more chance of you getting what you want.

And beyond that? If you're not at that point, you benefit from it too. A higher tier player than you that has the mods you don't would have that high chance of getting the Ephemera or Aura Forma, and you could then choose that from the reward table at the end of wave or end of mission. From there on, you have the rare items which will then bias the reward table the other way and help you get more of the Mods, Endo and Ayatans than normal on the higher Rotations.

Anyone else think this could work?

Rarer rewards for actually playing the game to a higher level, and equal opportunity for getting those rewards for team members who can't play to those higher levels yet.

Partial return of the Long Run meta by skewing the rewards for better play, but also encouraging players to run in groups and attempt that content because they have more chances at the rewards even if they can't go for long runs.

[peterc3]

Can any of you actually produce any data to support the idea that the current system "hurts" DE more than the proposed system?

[Hmm...interesting.]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Anyone else think this could work?

I suppose it could work, but at the same time, I feel like if we're going to go through the trouble of curving drop tables like that, we might as well go all the way and make a completely reliable, predictable system that is fair to the players. 

[Hmm...interesting.]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

Can any of you actually produce any data to support the idea that the current system "hurts" DE more than the proposed system?

It would be hard for them to, but which system would you personally rather play with? Are you opposed to my proposal, or are you just playing devil's advocate?

[peterc3]

32 minutes ago, Hmm...interesting. said:

Are you opposed to my proposal, or are you just playing devil's advocate?

Column A, Column B.

I'll make a point I made in another thread with the same premise. Why, given the knowledge I just have to grind out something win or lose, would I ever spend Plat in the Market for those items? Why would DE put a hard cap on how many times a given node or mission would be run by most people?

Name an achievement in a mission that cannot be completely ignored by a certain frame being used, a certain weapon or an Augment being used, etc. Now you've created an idea that a given mission "needs" to be done with X frame and anyone without X frame would feel the need to buy the frame to have that mission be done optimally.

This is an equally "bad" motivation in mobile games as absurd RNG. You are trading one F2P gaming vice with another, with no tangible benefit other than it "feels" better.