Dev Workshop - Nightwave Changes for Series 2

[Zelmen]

On 2019-05-14 at 12:56 PM, DARKLION98 said:

I think they means a Apy of your choose. So why don't you simply don't do that one?

I am point out there is an issue before all the toxic people coming on post about it after it was released. To be honest, "Just don't do that one" is a bad answer to them overlooking an issue. Since I know it's issue I would have avoided it but if you don't want me to inform others of the issue you're not helping the community.

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

Silly small thing that maybe has already been asked

Maybe adding some XP for completing a challenge, like when you complete a challenge in mission or you unveil a riven

I think that could help new players or even the veterans that are running some challenges after having used a forma, perhaps

Sorry for not having read everything

 

[NuttertKK]

As a New player.. I've spend most of the last 60 days getting up to Pluto.. (and Currently having to learn to Spy on Corpus without them wiping the data.) I am some what of a casual. Please at least offer an alternative bounty for players who can't use their Operator, or even aware what Operators are. I've only seen Operators a few times and some of that was partly as I've gone over my head and getting 1 shotted by anything that looks at me, and I need picking up.

I don't have access to my Operator as I've not played the relevant parts. Nor do I have access to ability to use Air Support Charges, at this time, more down to the other things on my shopping list.

Based on what I know: Lets say Newbie Player get a "Use an Air Support Charge" Daily, and looks in to getting it. Looking in his forge, he see 10 craft-able charges! But he needs get to Phobos (or tries to get Clem), before this person can craft one, due to what they can get. But he ALSO needs a Segment in the Orbiter, which either cost most of the Free plat, or 12-hour Blueprint that requires access from a Clan Dojo (and the Void), but then there is also the Clan Key, which also 12 hour blueprint before you can use it.. It's not unreasonable for a player who only plays between 8 and 11GMT (just before the Nightwave reset time), to spend two full days to get the parts before he can use the Air Support Charge.

Also, could you give Ordis some lines for new players that talk about certain Elemental Damage, while in the Menu to slot mods, as a new player I didn't know about Fire Mods or Ice Mods, or how they make Blast Damage without experimenting or going to the Wiki, and make them pop up more often when these Elements are part of the Night wave bounties.

[garbenzine]

There's a lot of room to do some cool things with the Acts. In particular, I'm hoping to see some inspiration taken from the old-school radio serials. $&*^ Tracey, Flash Gordon, The Lone Ranger, etc. Imagine a detective series where instead of having a boss/mooks spawn to kill, during spy missions the PI can spawn and will go steal some of the data before you do(you still have to crack the datavault but are told you were too late purely as flavor). To get your marks, you have to beat him to the punch. It doesn't all have to be super serious either. Maybe a sci-fi series that has some self-proclaimed Space Hero hamming it up and accidentally getting in your way during missions, complete with a classic ray-gun weapon to build?

Not so sure about the operator spy thing though, heh. It's not a bad idea on its face, but I'm kinda hoping you're planning on like... doubling or tripling Operator moving speed for that. :clem:

[supernils]

On 2019-05-10 at 4:54 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Degrindification

Hm that must be an individual psychological issue. I hate grinding. I don't do it.

I rarely did a challenge just for the challenge sake. Never did I complete all challenges for a week. And yet I got to lvl 30.

Admittedly I have lots of time to play currently. But it's only grindy if you grind.

What you are saying is: people who casually play should be able to get to lvl 30.

I'm fine with that, I don't need to improve my self worth by surpassing anyone in a game. But does than now mean less content for me? Will I be finished half way through and be left with no rewards?

[SneakyErvin]

On 2019-05-14 at 3:27 AM, WythOfNyth said:

-Complete a bounty without getting down from Archwing.

Fun suggestion but it is near impossible to complete. There are too many bounty stages that require you to specifically interact with something on the map, which you cannot do while in archwing mode. It would just lead to massive frustration (and rightly so) if you sit through a full bounty and the last stage happens to be something you need to interact with, or is located inside a cave you arent allowed to fly in.

[(PSN)Hellmans_Fury]

On 2019-05-15 at 6:45 AM, KnightKrawlur said:

Worst challenge I've seen yet.

Until you can make the operators actually useful and fun, requiring their use is just terrible.

You don't seem to understand that night wave is an extra. Not required for progress. It's a compilation of challenges meant to introduce new ways to enjoy the game and get rewarded for it. I personally love the idea of using your operator in this way I want to see more challenges like this.

[WythTR]

 

 

 

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Fun suggestion but it is near impossible to complete.

Yea, of course, you are right. It was just you know things I did when I really bored of regular gameplay. Just to share some random ideas I thought maybe they can trigger better ideas on designers mind.

[a118123]

I just reach lvl 28 and finished every daily/weekly mission this week, plx let me know if I still have chance to reach lvl30 on this series.

[(PSN)OReillysAuto]

Idk how good of an idea this is or if this was at all posted, but

What if people had a way to turn down or turn up their challenge difficulties?

I've seen a bit of complaints about newer players not being able to do some challenges, while other experienced players are dissatisfied with how boring they are, calling them just more grinds or "busywork."

A newer player could turn it down to their level so they are able to complete the challenges, while a more experienced player can turn up the heat and make it a real challenge

[DoTengri]

Regarding a lot challenge suggestions in this thread: Nightwave challenges should stay as close to "normal and usual" game play as possible.

We already have the clown department very well covered with a lot... dare I say it... silly and stupid Riven challenges. No need to spread this out even more and now possibly have it bleed into Nightwave, too. Please. Don't.do it.

 

 

 

[(PSN)Nek_Food]

7 hours ago, a118123 said:

I just reach lvl 28 and finished every daily/weekly mission this week, plx let me know if I still have chance to reach lvl30 on this series.

Sorry to say but I don't think so... You need 10K per rank and if I calculate right the remaining daily are 3x 1000 = 3000 (if there going to be 3 more daily challenges). That means you are not going to reach rank 30 and maybe you have a small chance to reach rank 29 IF you have 7000~8000 spare points on top of rank 28. Your only hope is to FARM the Wolf's minions (fugitives) the next 3 days. You get 150 points per squad, so you gonna need to hunt them down hard... still I find it very difficult (20K / 150 = 133.33 squads or 20K - 3K new daily challenges / 150 = 113.33 squads).

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

On ‎2019‎-‎05‎-‎15 at 9:45 AM, KnightKrawlur said:

Worst challenge I've seen yet.

Until you can make the operators actually useful and fun, requiring their use is just terrible.

Not even close to the worst and they are exceptionally useful.  Having completed full sorties solo with operator only where the warframe didn't leave spawn, a single spy of any difficulty is probably not even worthy of being considered an elite challenge - more like a daily.

But if players haven't completed War Within, they could be viewed as a little less useful.  I'd also suggest players max their focus trees before belittling the operators.

[SneakyErvin]

Just noticed a massive flaw in the s2 act system.

You remove 2 weeklies and 1 elite and redistribute the points into those remaining seven. This is really bad for newer players while having absolutley no impact on us old timers.

Wouldnt it be better to redistribute the standing over all 3 act types? That way a newer player will lose less overall if he gets poor rolls a week.

If a newer player in s1 couldnt complete or get access to a weekly or elite he would lose far less than he will in s2. Each missed weekly resulted in 3k and each elite in 5k. Now with the s2 changes, not only does he have less probability to roll acts he has access to (from 10 down to 7) but he also loses alot more standing for each act he cannot access or complete (4.2k per weekly and 7.5k per elite)

So my suggestion is to simply redistribute the standing across the whole system. You have 11k you need to redistribute.

Give dailies 500 (going from 1000 to 1500), give weeklies 1000 (going from 3000 to 4000) and give elites 1250 (going from 5000 to 6250). This would be a good QoL change for newer players and pretty much change jack or squat for oldtimers.

You need to think about the new players. The s2 changes are currently not better for them because they will not really make any use of the catch up mechanic either (which has its own seperate issues and design flaws).

[Mos-Eisley]

Feedback - 

Remove the operator only spy missions - these are going to be tedious, especially for people who do not have a well built operator. And I personally do NOT want more operator included into the game. Hell change this to complete spy doing 0 damage, or without setting off any alarm, without taking any damage. People who want to could do it with their operator.

Remove the Forma and Guild a thing items - Why would I forma or guild something if I have nothing I want to forma or guild?

Remove Mine rare gems - This is completely RNG based, completing this could take minutes or hours

Remove K-Drive races completely. 

Will I be able to reach max rank if I dont do any forma/guild/k-drive/operator only/conservation/mine challenges? Because I see no reason to waste my time in game doing something I do not enjoy, or is a waste of resources.

 

I personally liked the 60 min survival, though removing the "with a friend or clan mate " conditions was definitely the right thing to do. 

Some of the suggestions in this thread are great, having challenges that impose sortie like conditions...i.e. bow only, melee only, etc. could replace the forma/guild/mine options

 

[Ikusias]

On the gilding  something issue: the most inespensive way to do so is re-buying the mote amp on cetus and do a single night hunting wombalists and the occasional tusk grineer

[Maganar]

On 2019-05-13 at 6:42 PM, Llamatronian said:

I don't have a problem with it being difficult. It's supposed to be a challenge, and it's OK for those to be hard, as long as it isn't punishing IMO. Where that line is will differ from person to person I guess, but you don't have to do everything.

You do raise some good points about whether you need to do anything at all, or just let someone else do it while you stay in operator.

Yeah, I was just throwing the question out there.  Personally, that looks more annoying of a challenge than anything else to me so I thought I'd just put my voice out there since everyone else seemed to be saying "AWESOME CHALLENGE IDEA!"

I wouldn't even say it's that hard, as many people already prefer to do Spy vaults that way.  But for those of us that don't (it's more a playstyle difference than challenge difference compared to many warframes) it's just obnoxious, and for everyone - regardless of preference - it's now going to involve running around an entire level in operator mode (or waiting on spawn tile).

One thing I want to say in the defense of this challenge even if it undermines my point is that Nightwave challenges - as I understood things - were meant to encourage doing the things you normally would anyway (farm a few fish, for example) or to teach new playstyles that players may then find they would like to use in the future by choice (like stealth, for completing Exterminate without detection much like the riven challenge, as we saw once or twice as an Elite Weekly during Season 1).  This teaches a new playstyle for Spy missions (operator usage) which people may find more convenient and use in the future by choice, so I think this succeeds in its goal as a Nightwave challenge.

I'm just not a fan of DE trying to shoehorn in extended periods of operator gameplay.  Operators are already so powerful they create balance issues in any attempt to create challenging endgame (Arbitrations removing revival so operator-revival can't cheese - also note the Nightwave 60 minute Kuva challenge that I think was meant to be similar by forcing people to defend the very fragile 4,000 hp Kuva Harvesters which you can't revive to again negate operator overpowered nature with true, permanent invincibility assuming you dash through targets to top off energy).  Encouraging us to abuse them even harder rather than addressing how strong they are is just turning this game into "Operator," not "Warframe."

So I'll own up to it - it's probably my concerns over operator gameplay and their employment in general that is making me really nervous about this challenge being added.  The idea itself, in my opinion, is the type of thing Nightwave should do (teach playstyles and encourage getting around to gameplay or farm you may have been avoiding in bite-sized doses).

 

EDIT: This thought just hit me and I'm ashamed it took me this long but even more ashamed DE didn't consider this - do we REALLY, and I mean REALLY REALLY want direct references to operators in a console every player sees since they first start playing the game?  This is a MASSIVE spoiler to just have Nora drop.  I know it doesn't say what an operator is, but every new player is going to either either ask or wiki what this mechanic is and then spoil it for themselves.

Nightwave was supposed to help new players with onboarding.  SPOILERS are the opposite of helpful to new players and cause disappointment and frustration!!!

ADDITIONAL EDIT:

I only just saw this, and I'm sorry, I have to bring attention to this if no one else has (maybe they have)

On 2019-05-10 at 12:04 PM, Kylo. said:

I want this, but make it have the requirement of Kuva Fortress or Lua Spy. 

LUA Spy requires wall-latching, which operators cannot do.

Making a requirement like that just encourages people to do this in a Public match or with a friend to do the vaults.  Since the operator is so much clunkier in level navigation, it would result in you moving slower and everyone else would complete the Spy for you if doing it Public and you'd be a pure afk leech contributing nothing because you can't even get to the vaults as fast as people can either beat or fail them.  If doing it with a friend.... I think that's self-explanatory.  The friends will just trade "doing vault with warframe for my leeching friend" and "leeching as operator."

Either way, this encourages AFK leeching behavior (More than the original challenge, which imo is saying a lot).

This also just adds even more spoilers hand-fed to players by Nora. First, a challenge openly talking about operators - now, it's bringing more attention to Lua and Kuva Fortress (which at least the Halls of Ascension was vague enough most people didn't think anything of it if they were not that far).

[Kylo.]

5 hours ago, Maganar said:

LUA Spy requires wall-latching, which operators cannot do.

 

No it does not?

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

'With Clanmates / Friends' Act requirements have been removed completely

Good lord it was so irritating having 2 weeklies worth 10k standing being burried under those conditions.

And its not even mentioning that when someone completed it, half the times at the very least for one of the group it never counted.

Цитата

 

Daily: Shake hands with someone of the same syndicate.

Weekly: Win a match of Frame Fighter.

 

How bout fing NO?

We just got rid of that trash that requires random human interaction for no reason nobody liked and you push that AGAIN.

Smart. Real smart not

[Chipputer]

On 2019-05-15 at 8:45 AM, KnightKrawlur said:

Worst challenge I've seen yet.

Until you can make the operators actually useful and fun, requiring their use is just terrible.

Dude, my Operator can out-damage the average player, survive longer, and keep everyone else alive better.

"Fun," is subjective, but they are objectively useful if you know what you're doing and have invested in them.

[(XBOX)KiryuStark]

40 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Dude, my Operator can out-damage the average player, survive longer, and keep everyone else alive better.

"Fun," is subjective, but they are objectively useful if you know what you're doing and have invested in them.

I havent got it to the "survive" part but the amps have brutal damage even to high level enemies. I just wish there was a way to get something for kills. Once you have it mastered it seems like I dont get anything for using the operator. Do they contribute at all to mastery?

[Chipputer]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)KiryuStark said:

I havent got it to the "survive" part but the amps have brutal damage even to high level enemies. I just wish there was a way to get something for kills. Once you have it mastered it seems like I dont get anything for using the operator. Do they contribute at all to mastery?

The amps do. The Operator themselves don't, though.

Void mode + the regen passive from Vazarin = free health as long as your energy lasts. Bonus points if you actually use the Vazarin school, where you get an extra 25 hp/s while in void mode.

You can even swap in the Fortuna arcanes for them that change them to physical damage types. Bonus points if you use Magus Glitch with it so you can nuke enemies with any AoE amp and allow your Operator to die at no penalty to your frame, then immediately toss them back out to repeat the process. I use it to meme around with my buddies and we refer to it as the, "Tactical Nuke."

[Maganar]

10 hours ago, Kylo. said:

No it does not?

I don't even know what to say here.  "Yes, it does?"  It's going to end up like two kids on a schoolyard playground if this keeps going.  "Did, too!"  "Did not!"  "Did, too!"  "Did not!"  I guess I just have to try and explain - to you - the spy vaults you recommended.

Lua Spy has the part with the "training course" in the past that requires wall-latching and shooting a target that travels through the area, moving forward each time you shoot it and requiring parkour to latch onto each new platform (from its side) before the target becomes targetable again.  Then there are rotating lasers that must be stopped by shooting them intermittently while wall-latching to four platforms in sequence.  This was the only vault I brought up because of the obvious (or so I thought) issue, but the other two would both be exceedingly impractical with the operator as well (the vault in question, I believe, is fully impossible without a player on warframe to help).

I highly suggest you actually learn Lua Spy before recommending challenges based around it.  Now if by any chance (though I am inclined to doubt it) you know an alternate solution to the vault in question, maybe you could enlighten me rather than playing coy and pretending you don't even know what I am talking about (if you've done that vault at all, you SHOULD know the wall latching section that makes up over half the completion time even with no mistakes made).

27 minutes ago, (XB1)KiryuStark said:

I havent got it to the "survive" part but the amps have brutal damage even to high level enemies. I just wish there was a way to get something for kills. Once you have it mastered it seems like I dont get anything for using the operator. Do they contribute at all to mastery?

Every operator amp prism contributes to mastery.  However, the amp with that prism must first be gilded before it can earn any mastery (which occurs as it levels back up).  Gilding amps really only exists to combat the issue you point out (that there is very little incentive to use their content for most players) in what I feel is a rather artificial way by effectively forcing you to "polarize" (That's what gilding would do for a kitgun or zaw) your amp even though it has no polarities, no mods, and... well... no content outside the ability to slot a single arcane (not nearly as compelling as theorycrafting with mods on a weapon).  This extends the required operator playtime for mastery (by double, naturally)... but the issue is since there is no content that really encourages you to use operators outside of Eidolons requiring it (but granting terribly low xp), everyone still ends up just powerleveling it on Hydron or ESO, and doing twice as many waves on either one of those... does not make amps any more compelling.

The true problem with operator gameplay, though, is that they kill a lot of the selling points of warframe (fun and fast parkour, using a variety of characters and their abilities, using a variety of weapons - only a few amp prisms after all, and the cyborg ninja aesthetic naturally) and require colossal grind for focus to make combat-ready.  Once you do unbind all focus nodes, they suddenly become like gods descended down to some mortal plane of existence which is now their plaything.  Permanent invisibility, permanent invincibility, instantly recharging energy on void dash through targets, high damage... They ultimately gain the ability to reliably dash through an entire tileset from spawn to extraction without even dropping out of void mode once you unbind the Zenurik school energy pool increase and aim your dashes to get regen by dashing through targets.  Even if you gum it up, fall out of void mode, and are killed - you aren't!  You just get ported back to your warframe that you've presumably parked in a safe place instead of requiring revive.  You're effectively never punished for abusing a god mode cheat.

Operator gameplay is just a mess right now that is overpowered when truly unleashed, but always running contrary to the selling points of the game.  I wish DE would stop pushing so hard to expand upon it or force us into it.  DE did it right with archwings despite the long years of people whining it was an abandoned mode - they stopped expanding and pushing people to do it when they realized the gameplay wasn't living up to expectations (and with Itzal and Amesha being both as overpowered as operators for many of the same reasons).  They revisited it in a new form as open world transport and are delaying Railjack, as I understand it, to create a new archwing experience that will better fulfill player fantasies.  Archwing is being salvaged, and in my opinion DE is doing a fine job of it.  Operators are just as problematic, if not worse (as is my opinion, because of how operator revival has taken all risk out of warframe combat as well - at least archwing was a self-contained problem) than archwing ever was, but DE has instead been pushing for more content with them.

And to just make matters worse, DE constantly trying to push for more operator content and constantly referencing it makes it very hard for new players to begin without everything being spoiled for them - they aren't just fighting the people who revel in dropping spoilers, but the game and DE themselves.  I recently got someone to start playing Warframe and just about had to pull wool over their eyes until Neptune to keep it from being spoiled.  They thanked me afterward for all the effort when they realized how hard I had worked to guide them away from experiences that would spoil TSD because they found it to be a powerful experience that would have otherwise been ruined entirely.  That's nice and all, but it shouldn't require a friend who already plays the game to play a game of subterfuge to onboard a new player without spoilers.

[darkbrick]

this makes me want to see Rebecca and Megan doing Operator Spy Mission 😄

[(XBOX)Tackle]

So are we going to be able to get the wolf armor if we didn't get it before hand?