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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Nightwave Changes for Series 2

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2 hours ago, Pythagoras3 said:

Maybe rather than have Wolf continue to appear anywhere at random (not even linked to a mark like the other assassins) maybe just keep his current boss nodes above Saturn and have him appear at random JUST on Saturn. Basically make him like Ambulas, who appears anywhere on Pluto randomly but also has a node where you can fight a stronger version of them.

Yeah the current top level Wolf alert is actually a pretty good boss now that you can prepare adequate gear, make it permanent! At least have the operation re-occur occasionally...

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Really happy with all those changes, Thankyou!

Nice to see K-drives got added, Hopefully more people run K-drives and produces more valuable feedback. Kdrives are a fun side game that need some more purpose and avenues for development. Like NPC faction races across all open maps.

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On 2019-05-10 at 11:42 AM, SSI_Seraph said:

No big final like Steve and Reb hinted at for wolf spawns?

That's most likely the running alerts right now. 

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On 2019-05-10 at 12:08 PM, Takkov said:

Eh, are K-Drive related things really necessary? Leave it out and keep the friend/clanmate thing, at least those usually were fast, if it's sortie.

In general, why would you put things as acts that players dont have to do, for example gilding amps, putting in stars, opening relics, now transmuting, farming syndicate medaillons. All of those things are directed towards players that might still need it, but once you have the things you want from any of those, it becomes completely and utterly pointless.

Similar to ESO, you could just add the "complete a full rotation of defense/surv/excav etc" on the thing. this way people have a bit more freedom in choosing missions they might want to do instead of being forced into going into relic missions.

3 K Drive races, no matter how horrid the controls are, are always going to be faster than even a sortie... the races are literally 20 seconds long.  

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A few concerns in response...

  • 12 mod transmutations seems like too much for a mere daily, a weekly maybe but not daily.
  • Having an act that directly references the use of your operator seems like it'd be rather spoilery for newer players who have not reached this point of the game yet. While the challenge is decent I would advice against this.
  • Lastly, the only acts I truly had a problem with in this season were gild an item and burn arbitrary 3 forma. As I've noted previously in the feedback thread the first should not exist as it encourages not playing the content as for the second, same, though if you really want to keep it should be reduced to 1 forma. The result of this round of nightwave is that I've stopped entirely gilding anything because of the thread of a gild act screwing me over the day after and as for forma, I haven't applied a single forma in 3 weeks because I am waiting for these acts. Please remove these...
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On 2019-05-10 at 9:58 PM, NytmareChaos said:

play (not win) 3 games of Conclave

While I appreciate the "play but not necessarily win" qualifier... please no... conclave is hard enough to stomach when you go in willingly, I really don't want to be forced to bite that toxic apple on a regular basis.

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" Pet your Kubrow or Kavat (Very Important) "

 

Truly the most useless, pointless objective so far.

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Posted (edited)

Feedback incoming...

Here is how you make everyone happy with Nightwave:

1. Give players access to the full list of weekly and elite weekly acts. Allow them to activate any act(s) they wish to do, and upon completion it will be greyed out until two weekly resets have passed.

2. Give Nightwave a standing cap that increases each week and retains previous progress. So the first week, the cap is 35000, the next week is 70000, and so on. If you got, for example, 20k standing done in the first week, you'd have 50k available that you could do the following week, etc. 

Implementing these two suggestions would allow players to play at their own pace through the whole season, only doing acts they feel comfortable doing, while having them grey out for a while would still ensure some variety in the selection. Many of the issues such as using forma, gilding items, and slotting sculptures would become non-issues in such an environment. You could do it if it was already convenient or choose something else to do if not.

------

3-Day Alerts:

In the same way that we get a daily challenge for Nightwave that lasts 3 days, give us an alert like those from the old alert system each day that lasts for 3 days. These alerts should be for things like Aura and Nightmare mods, caches of rare resources, kavat genetic code, etc. 

The main reason alerts were removed was because their short duration created a "pay to sleep" situation. By extending their duration and making them appear once a day, you'd strike a good balance.

------

Nightwave Act Suggestions:

- Kill X enemies with Bow/Sniper/Sword/Hammer, etc.

- Complete an Extrerminate mission with only a Primary/Secondary/Melee weapon equipped

- Harvest 800 cryotic from an Excavation mission without losing any excavators

- Defeat (Assasination target) within (time limit)

- Accept 3 bounties while in PoE or Orb Vallis (not Cetus/Fortuna)

- Defeat 5 Thumpers in PoE

- Complete a bounty in PoE/Orb Vallis, while primarily in Archwing mode (>50%)

- Kill 25 enemies with a K-Drive equipped with damaging mods

- Kill 25 enemies with a stolen Dargyn on the Plains of Eidelon

- Acquire a Calda, Vega, and Sola Toroid from the Orb Vallis

- Use a Specter in a Defense mission

- Buy a relic pack from 3 different syndacites...or just buy 3 relic packs

- Revive 10 fallen allies

- Dissolve 10 mods for endo

- Collect 3 Vitus Essense from Arbitrations

- Earn 300 Ducats from selling Prime Parts at a Relay

- Complete a capture mission in under 2 minutes 

- Open 3 radiant relics

- Complete a trade with another player

- Complete a spy mission of each tier (1, 2, 3, Lua, and Kuva)

- Kill 50 level 30+ enemies with a weapon that has no mods equipped

- Have your companion get the killing blow on 25 enemies

- Kill 50 enemies with Void Energy (Operator mode)

- Use Void Dash to travel 300 meters without touching the ground

- Attack one enemy with your Primary, Secondary, Melee, and Amp weapons

 

P.S. Under the system I described above, acts that relate to Operators could be hidden from players who have not completed The War Within.

Edited by dpencil
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On 2019-05-10 at 10:54 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Ayatan Socket requirement for Acts lowered from 5 to 3

The right change here is to turn in statues for their fully-socketed endo reward.  This avoids punishing players for just doing upkeep on their inventory.  Similarly, change the spend forma task to spend or craft forma.  That doesn't punish a player for not having gear left that needs forma, since they can do the three days crafting instead.

Another is to change gild a modular weapon to getting kills with a gilded item.  That encourages players to craft and gild if they haven't, but does not punish players who have already spent resources mastering everything.

You should never punish players just for doing things with the game, and it is pretty easy not to.  This is especially important with the new system that tasks players with no choice on the catch-up for skipped acts.

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Posted (edited)
Am 10.5.2019 um 17:53 schrieb [DE]Bear:

This is the place to do so. Feedback is welcomed!

I agree with everyone who says that "gild a weapon", "fill an ayatan", "use forma" etc are not tasks that belong to Nightwave.

In my opinion Nightwave could use some more tasks that focus on the crazy or funny stuff you can do in Warframe.

 

Geyser Glide:

Kill one/two/three enemies while aimgliding after getting lifted into the air by the Geyser on the Plains of Eidolon

 

Death from Above:

Perform a Kill with a Ground-slam-attack from a height of at least 50m/100m/150m

 

FreeFall:

Kill one enemy with any Warframe-ability while in the air after leaving your Archwing/K-Drive before hitting the ground

 

Crash Through:

Ragdoll an enemy into the ocean/into a lake (from at least x meters away)

 

Wallride:

Complete any mission without touching the ground

 

Stuntman:

Do a backflip (or any other trick) while jumping over the pearl (or any other landmark/structure)

 

 

These are just a few examples, but i think you get the idea 😛

I am sure there are lots of tasks that can be really fun for both Vets and Newer Players,

and those tasks should incentivize the player to experiment a little bit either with their builds or playstyle.

Edited by DreisterDino
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3 hours ago, dpencil said:

 

 

P.S. Under the system I described above, acts that relate to Operators could be hidden from players who have not completed The War Within

Smart thinking, kiddo 

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-10 at 10:54 PM, [DE]Bear said:

5) The Emissary 

Of course, a new Series means a new Nightwave Story. We don't want to spoil too much, but we will be also changing up the way the story interacts with the world. Episode 2 will have more interactivity with the players in new ways, expanding out and growing as the Episode progresses. We are excited for you to see what you make of this new story!

 

 

I swear to god, if this turns out to be a Kerrigan/infested human for us to interact with I will be exceedingly disappointed. I like my Infestation weird, alien and hard, but not impossible to understand. If you give it a human face, that's just horribly unimaginative.

Edited by KokoroWish

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Posted (edited)

...so we still going have the wolf cred being with us for while?  I hope we can do more with the wolf cred I mean...the bp....sorry to insult but the bp in the wolf cred isn't somewhat worth spending when we might have that not have that type frame or have the frame but already bought it with plats.  Anyway not saying as rude or being uncivilized, just saying that the reward exchange-ment is bit unwanted to say >.> no offense and apologized that words hurt a lot.  I hope you dev and the team won't get overworked up and not to die overworking, just remember drinking booze does not release the stress for it only creates even more stress afterward or with the bottle of booze.

 

Edited by ChaoticEdge

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On 2019-05-10 at 4:54 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Elite Weekly

  • Complete a Spy mission using your Operator. Warframe cannot leave spawn room.

This is good, but since this is more of a "stealth" operation can we get something like a stealth attack for operators?

Actually with operators we can: be invisible/ unhittable for a duration, travel short/long distance with dash, there's even Naramon witch is a school based on stealth, movement and crit intensify so why don't do that little step and add stealth attacks?

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Posted (edited)

Sounds ok, though I have a few concerns.

Catch Up really isn't a way to catch up with the reputation gathering.  It is simply more tasks to do in a week locked behind those of the current week (which you may or may not be able or want to do).  As it stands there seems little reason why a player wouldn't want to catch up so leaving them available until completed seems like a way to catch up as that would allow previous challenges to be done while doing current one, thus going through those faster and actually catching up to others.

Expiring Wolf Creds, while I understand why you would want to do that give players at least 2 weeks if not the entire next chapter to use them before they are expired.  This gives player more than enough fair warning that the system has moved on and a good chunk of leeway to spend them.  If they just up and vanish at the end of the chapter there will be players unprepared as there is no in game indication of the end of said chapter.

Degrindification: bounties don't really need fewer distinct ones (though if you have to not repeat tiers/types then the grind is actually increased not decreased as you have to do longer bounties to qualify), they would be best to count as stages, just like the invasions count the stages not the full three missions as one step.

Note: as a note perhaps changing the name of these to tasks rather than challenges.  Tasks implies something you need to do, challenge implies something with difficulty (that the specifics of will be different for every player).

 

Possible Challenges:
Pop the Bubble: Defeat Captain Vor with a sniper rifle/shotgun.
Headbutt to the Phorid: Defeat Phorid with a fist weapon (or any melee).
Till Next Time: Defeat Vor in the void..
Overloaded: Defeat Vor in the void with Electrical damage.
Sweet Silence: Defeat Vor in the void before he finishes his monologue.
Monologue: In the void let Vor finish his monologue before defeating him.
Burn off the Leech: Defeat Tyl Regor with a beam weapon.
Ice and Fire: Defeat Krill with fire or cold damage.
Enguard!: Defeat The Sergeant with a sword (or any melee).

Edited by Loswaith
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On 2019-05-10 at 9:54 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Changes to Existing Acts!

  • Ayatan Socket requirement for Acts lowered from 5 to 3

Instead of having to hold empty sculptures for this challenge why not have us SELL 3 (full socketed?) ayatan sculptures instead. This way we don't have worry about finding new unsocketed sculptures just for this challenge.

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Some welcomed changes... yet, some points were entirely missed (or passive-aggressively disagreed with - I'd rather they come right out and say what they're adamant about keeping, than be forced to assume they didn't hear or ignored the feedback on some of these points - is it a technical issue, difference of vision for the intent of the system? What is it?)

Changes to existing acts:

  • No more with friends: Great - best change in the list.
  • 5 Sorties to 3: Better... I guess I'm just not well geared for soloing certain sorties (I have solo'd sorties before), and I only have one friend who I'd play with, and our schedules only really align one day a week, sometimes (I mean, they're easy duo) ... and I don't PUG, so I likely won't stress out and try to solo these just for points, as I generally just ignore Sorties in my regular routine.
  • 60min Survival to 30: Good, I still get sleepy at 30 in those GotL alerts, but better than a whole hour, for sure. (They're especially more tedious, now that melee 2.99998 has ruined my horde shredding Orthos quick-attacks, turning it into herky-jerky stumbling around wiffing at thin air while enemies move around and I'm stuck in some silly fancy slash - it just hammers the point home that the aspect of the game I loved the most is gone - fluid melee combat. So I just get frustrated and bored and more and more mad at the game, the longer it goes on.)
  • Ayatan Socket 5 to 3: Better... I guess, but just shouldn't exist. MAYBE down to 1, since you can get it from Maroo's quest once a week.
  • 10 to 6 Perfect conservations: Um... better, but... why say "different" and cause all this confusion? I won't be doing this one unless absolutely necessary. No need for floofs and already have max Fortuna rank.
  • 10 Bounties to 5: No, just change it to 10 bounty stage completions, and let people run the level they want to run for rewards more fitting to their needs. And again.... what's with "Different"? does this mean you can't just repeat the first bounty quickly like you can now?
  • Increase SO from 3 to 8: Ok, I know why you did this... before, it encouraged people to leave at 3 rounds, when many wanted to stay til 8 for C rotation rewards. It will just be a bit more of a grind for me going solo 2-3 rounds at a time. It will NOT make me group up to go all 8 rounds with a PUG. (and hey, if I WAS in a group, I still don't know if I'd stay a whole 8 at a time. I really dislike the timer thingy. Another game I play has been introducing timers and pushing DPS as a benchmark of how good your build is, and quite frankly, it's annoying and not at all the full extent of what makes a good build.)
  • No mention of "use 3 Forma" and "Gild a modular item" acts going into the delete bin? They need to go.

New Acts

  • 5 Syndicate medallions: I always go for 8 when I do any syndicate mission, so ok.
  • Transmute mods: ok... for me, not an issue, but I can see it being a problem for new players. Transmuting can be costly and is a waste of credits and mods.
  • Deploy Air Support: Others have mentioned this isn't a great one to add...
  • Pet your Pet:... um, ok. I guess now that the pet system has been changed, and we can bring pets out and put them back into stasis quickly, no problem as long as the questline is done... but not an ideal act... (I'd have been solidly against it before the changes to the incubator system, because I prefer sentinels and got pets for mastery rank only.)
  • 3 Kuva Siphon missions: ok... I can potentially force myself to do that one. My operator needs a lot of work, and I don't need Kuva. (gasp, shock, are you not endgame?)
  • 3 K-drive races: alright... not exactly hard... but the initial questline that has to be solo'd to gain access to Fortuna and a K-drive isn't exactly a newbie-friendly experience mainly due to the defending the extractors portion (and again, does "different" mean hunting down 3 different races, or just 3 individual races?) This issue makes the Fortuna bounties, Fortuna fishing, and Fortuna mining all problematic acts. (though a non-issue with most people who will say "they're easy, stop complaining." because they already have access.)
  • Spy, Operator Only: Guess I'll be running to earth... Operators are not a pleasant experience for me. The whole spoiling operators for new players thing is another concern I thought you'd care more about, now that they'll probably group up with people who have operator mode unlocked, just for the points available from this act and sit in the spawn-in room while the operator people go do their thing and wait for the operator guys to get to extraction and wait out the extraction timer - since they can't leave the spawn room in warframe, or fail the act. (or will they not even get credit if they can't leave their frame?)

I can see the reasoning for putting these sorts of things on the list, I can, it's a list of stuff you can do in the game, trying to come up with a wide variety of things to reward people for doing so the list doesn't become as repetitive. It's just... some people just have no need, in their personal goals, to do some of this stuff, so it just becomes a list of chores to fill in check-boxes to get some unrelated rewards. Some people loathe some content, and grinded it out at some point just so they could be DONE WITH IT, and never have to touch it again... and now, weekly, they are forced to go back into that portion of the massive game of Warframe, and do content they don't like.

Some of these acts actively discourage people from making use of strategic resources (like Forma, Modular items, Ayatan Statues, Apothics, etc), instead, waiting for them to randomly possibly appear as a week's acts, rather than wasting them in using them the day, or even hours, before they suddenly become reward-worthy objectives (this happened to me twice when I used up my stock just the week prior - Ayatan, and Apothics, and nearly a 3rd time with the modular item).

Some of these acts gate points behind story progression in a way that the previous alert system, that this supposedly replaces, did not (as they could get taxi'd to nearly any starchart location (I think there are very few restricted nodes from this ability - Lua and the Kuva Fortress, maybe?)) With each act now worth more points (details yet to be seen), this is even more of a problem than in the first season.

 

Now...

The catch-up mechanic is a step in the right direction. It still feels needlessly restrictive. I figure the reasoning here is that some Acts may repeat from week to week, back to back, and if two weeks' identical acts were active, they can't (or shouldn't) be completed simultaneously...

2 potential solutions:

1) Couldn't you just have a "current list" of active acts, and as you finish them, allow finished acts to be replaced by the entire list of previous unfinished acts, and just swap them out? At this point, I'd even say, unfinished acts could be replaced by any previous week's unfinished acts. So, you can fill your current "Acts" list, with any Act that has appeared during the current series. (with repeats allowed to fill the inactive list, but only one of any single act active at any given time, so you don't miss out on repeats.)

~*~

A better catch-up mechanic would also address the next point: Less is... LESS, not more, in this case. Sure, there's less so-called-grind, because people are forced to do less acts to get more points per act, than the first season (I get why you said that.) But, Less, is LESS now, because if you miss or do not complete any of these acts, you are penalized more than in the first series, I'll explain in my 2nd solution, if this point is hard to grasp.

2) Ideally, were I to have freedom to change how this works:
There would be a large pool of available acts (something like 20 weeklies, 10 elite weeklies) with a cap to how much standing you can get from acts. Now, you get to choose things that fit your schedule and ability, ignoring the ones that don't fit. If you wanted to, you could cram all that standing in from Elite Weekly acts, and ignore the more boring Weekly acts. You're so leet. Good job.

This "Act Standing Limit" would not be WEEKLY, it would be cumulative over the course of the event - increasing each week.
This means, a person starting at week 2 could gain 2 week's-worth of standing from available acts in a single week... starting in week 3, they could potentially get 3 weeks worth in their first week.
The standing gained from other sources (the random encounters or boss fights or whatever non-act-activity in each season) would not count toward this limit.

With this system, even the Forma and Gilding Acts could remain without being so demanding of our time and resources (as totally bonus objectives when you decide you want to do those things and get rewarded for doing so.)

It would then be less important to implement a sort of re-rolling Acts system to swap out acts that you'd rather not do (for whatever reason) (though, I think there may be cases where this is beneficial for some,) by consuming some resource or credits (not Creds), or maybe doing a special alert-style mission for Nora.

Now, when someone comes back when they can, or they start late, the large pool of available acts will give them opportunity to fill up this cumulative weekly standing limit.

 

This also combats the problem that will now surface with Degrindification: people missing out on even MORE standing than they do currently, if they can't or don't want to engage with the currently reward-able activities in the game. Less is now potentially much less than Season1 (depends on the rewards for each act in the new series, but clearly they'll all be worth more than currently, so this stands until we see otherwise). The fewer, but more rewarding acts system benefits those who can do every single Act, and penalizes those who can't: It compounds the problem with the announced catch-up mechanic, since not being able to complete one of the current season's acts prevents you from doing the previous week's uncompleted acts. It's like a train crashing in slow motion...

 

~*~

As to the whole "Challenge" aspect people are complaining about: You have been very careful to use the term "Acts" instead of "Challenges" to describe these required tasks, because you know full well that they're not all challenging (display glyph), and I don't think even "Elite Weekly" acts are meant to be taken as "challenges"... They're more like goals than challenges. Some people take being given a goal as being challenged to complete it, but the required action does not inherently need to be a "challenge" or difficult to complete to fit this system. And as a replacement for Alerts, this is fitting, because the single-mission-payout format was not "challenging" so much as it was breathing life into the game and by helping us fulfill our own goals through resource rewards, and selecting to run those alerts for those rewards, as well as helping those who had run out of ideas in coming up with their own goals.

I absolutely despise the riven unlock system, and only do a few here and there. I mean, some of those things might randomly happen, but If more of those were brought in... ug... I'm so glad that the Acts are not Riven-style unveilings.

 

~*~


The Wolf
The wolf remaining as a random assassin... really? Maybe limit him to Saturn only? Maybe keep his node around? Maybe have fugitives spawn on Saturn only, and they drop the ingredients to make Wolf Base Keys (and spy missions on Saturn could provide these fully made, and the capture mission is always a fugitive hunt).
Maybe limit him to beacon-summon only?
He's such a pain.
Hunting him is his own node has been relatively fun. Being hunted by him, randomly appearing when minding our own business? Not so fun. (as in not fun at all)

~~~~~

Overall, a good bit of adjustments, just feels like more of a "compromise" on some of them, rather than a fix, keeping the base problem in effect (and the reasons for the changes that were asked for still apply), just less so.

And *le sigh* wolf creds expiring. No talk of any changes to the syndicate rank with unique event styled rewards, so the same FOMO will exist, people will still get burned out trying to get the highest tier required for the last unique reward from this event as they did last time, unless firm dates are set (that can still be offset by extending the duration at the end, if need be.)

It's like, I'm standing here, thinking, did you not see what happened the first time? Why do that again? Or have you just not released details on those changes yet? (I'd have expected them in this workshop post, so no expectations remain to see any more changes than have been listed here for season 2.)

Oh well.

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Posted (edited)

Glad to hear there are changes coming. Nightwave did what nothing else managed to do for 5 years: it made me stop playing Warframe for an extended period of time. Either you did the Nightwave acts, and absolutely nothing else, or you didn't, and felt like you were missing out (Nora will not let you forget about Nightwave). It just drained the fun out of the game for me. Hopefully these changes will make things feel a bit better.

Edited by MantisCore
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On 2019-05-10 at 5:54 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Complete a Spy mission using your Operator. Warframe cannot leave spawn room.

What happened to "No spoilers for new players" rule?

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About Operator only spy - is anyone else is so used to constantly switching between Warframe and Operator, that they suspect that they will fail this task a lot of times due to muscle memory too?

I am sorta sad to see that “with friends” challenge is getting axed.

K-drives... race... For the love of the Void... I think I will sit this one out. By the way, was being unable to name a custom K-drive fixed?

All in all, as long as it still be possible to get to the max rank with 60-70% of the challenges done, I guess it’s... ok? Few things go perfectly on a first try.

To be honest, I mostly dislike NW for reasons not related to the gameplay. Who is Nora, why Tenno listen to her and why no one asks there she got that Umbral Forma from?

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6 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

About Operator only spy - is anyone else is so used to constantly switching between Warframe and Operator, that they suspect that they will fail this task a lot of times due to muscle memory too?

I am sorta sad to see that “with friends” challenge is getting axed.

K-drives... race... For the love of the Void... I think I will sit this one out. By the way, was being unable to name a custom K-drive fixed?

All in all, as long as it still be possible to get to the max rank with 60-70% of the challenges done, I guess it’s... ok? Few things go perfectly on a first try.

To be honest, I mostly dislike NW for reasons not related to the gameplay. Who is Nora, why Tenno listen to her and why no one asks there she got that Umbral Forma from?

I never use my operator for Spy missions, so the failure isn't going to come from switching back. It's going to be hard to remember to switch to the operator. 

 

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On 2019-05-10 at 4:54 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Transmute 12 Mods

do you know that transmutation is pretty expensive? 

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The people saying the spy as operator challenge should be on Lua, I'd love to know how you do wall latching with your operator.  Unless there's a way to completely bypass the wall latching challenge in Lua spy, doing it as operator only is flat out impossible without additional changes to either the operator or the vault.

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On 2019-05-10 at 10:54 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Transmute 12 Mods 

Wait, so this needs a bit of clarification, if it hasn't been provided already.  Would this refer to the mods that go into transmutation, or the mods that result from transmutation?

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28 минут назад, ToaSirian сказал:

do you know that transmutation is pretty expensive? 

Depends on if it is 12 mods transmuted into 3 or not. Bronze mods transmutation is cheap. If you do not mind Symaris tasks, it is free.

Только что, (PS4)Lollybomb сказал:

The people saying the spy as operator challenge should be on Lua, I'd love to know how you do wall latching with your operator.  Unless there's a way to completely bypass the wall latching challenge in Lua spy, doing it as operator only is flat out impossible without additional changes to either the operator or the vault.

Every Lua Vault have an easy way. In wall latching challenge you can just go back into present after hacking the first console.

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